I'm surprised there are so many DT/TOOL cross-over fans. The two are at the opposite ends of the art/meta/whatever spectrum. I love DT, but TOOL is my heart. They have that something extra. 10,000 days is masterpiece.

I definetely prefer Tool to DT though. Why?
Because unlike DT, Tool have (and will) tour down here.

And they say Tool treat their fans like crap!

Yes, I've read so many online reviews stating just that, how it is this super mindblowing awesome bestest album of all time, etc. etc. etc.

...but I nearly fell out of my chair when hearing it for the first time. How can anyone get past the endlessly annoying guitar wankery, the cheesy keyboards, the uber-gay singing and the hideously awful murder/love/mystery story behind all of it? Not to mention all the blatant Pink Floyd ripoffs they threw in...

If you accumulate the mind boggling amount of random riffing they've done over all those years, they've probably played every possible riff at least once. So, yes, just through the law of statistics, you might be right ;)

I'm a bit ashamed that I love bashing DT so much. They're such an easy target and I actually like the guys when reading interviews with them. Yes, they're insanely capable with their instruments. And yes, they have no idea how to use it, IMHO.

Thematically? I'm sorry, tool is always very opinionated, and "The Great Debate" is just trying to outline an issue. "Pay attention to these questions we have raised"? Come on =P

I've really liked Dream Theater's recent stuff. I kind of agree some of their lyrics seem to be written for aural effect rather than for meaning but that is exactly what Dream Theater does best- huge presentation. Very indulgent guitar solos to be sure.

I'm just not hearing DT in Tool's new album. In fact, the first thing I thought when I first listened through this is that Tool has regressed back to Aenima for whatever reason. I was expecting sound textures and composition to be an progression from Lateralus, but this is totally unlike the previous album to me. Even though the songs can be lengthy, for some reason they just don't build up to major peaks like Lateralus' do.

Whereas when I first listened to "The Grudge" I was immediately hit with it's beauty and unique sound. Everything on 10,000 days seems alot less surprising and more predictable. Having said that however, I will say it has some good moments, "Right in Two" possibly being my favorite track. "Rosetta Stoned" is somehow simultaneously fun and scary.

At the end of the day I enjoy what they've created for us. This talk about this being their heaviest album that began circulating last year is lost on me... if anything this is the tamest album yet, to my ears.

10,000 days sails on a completely different sea than does Lateralus. It doesn't hit me like the previous album did but I enjoy most of it.

No more pretentious messages and mechanical structuring in Tool songs, YAY.

Yeah! extremely shitty lyrics about bed shitting and pot and no more good new ideas or nice song structures! awesome!

Operation:Mindcrime puts Scenes to shame IMO.

As already stated by 2and46 "The two are at the opposite ends of the art/meta/whatever spectrum." Although they share similiar traits, such as complex song structures and time changes, DT, when truely broken down, are just a jam band. They seem to play more off each other then Tool does. Tool does a much better job at bringing out emotion with their songs.

And for those that think they have cheesy lyrics, in some instances, I agree. The main differance between them is the fact MJK writes all of tool lyrics while JL rarely writes DT songs. I wonder what a Tool song would sound like if Danny, Adam, or Justin wrote the lyrics. Also, Tool's lyrics aren't as blatently clear in their meaning as DT's songs are. You know what DT is talking about in their lyrics while Tool's lyrics are very criptic in that they can have many meanings.

As far as talent goes, I think DT as a group could easily play any tool song. I'm not saying it would sond exactly like Tool because I don't think JL could pull off the vocals, but musically they could. I think Tool would have a hard time playing alot of DT songs, with the exception of Danny.

I guess it comes down to what you want to get out of listening to a band and how wide a spectrum of music you might like. I don't listen to a band and go "well I don't get the same feeling from them as I do from Tool so they suck".

EDIT:
Although DT hasn't been down there, ever I think, where they do play, they DO treat their fans very well. Ask yourself how many meet & greets Tool have done at their shows.

I keep hoping DT will do a cover set of Aenima or Lateralus, like they did with Number of the Beast and that metallica Album

I would diffently make a trip to Chicago or NY for one of those show's. They only do them the second night when they play 2 shows someplace. And they never do that in Boston, although they did go into 'master of Puppets' at the end of 'Pull me under' in '02. That sounded fucking awsome.

You'd go to chicago from new hampshire? Thats dedicated.... Oh, wait, do you own a car? because then its not so impressive =D

rosetta stoned > entire lateralus album. But this has already been discussed.

Justin Chancelour could play them too. Really, besides Adam, Tool could match Dream Theater. Both bands play different styles, and I just prefer Tool. Who cares about Talent, it's about the artistic merit and how long lasting the songs will be.

No, not never, but most of the time, yes, they don't value the song's quality over just soloing. If anything, you're the one who is ignorant because you can't handle anyone liking U2 or Eminem. And yes, I do know what I'm talking about. It's called an opinion. Train of Thought is complete wankage. Octavarium is pure rip-offs and cheese ball songs. The only thing worth hearing on that album is the title track and they even kill the best parts of the song with lame shredding. The biggest problem isn't even the fact that they can't seem to hold back on their instruments, it's that they more often than not take ideas from other bands. Awake and Scenes From a Memory are two examples of them valuing songwriting for the most part over jamming, yet they aren't really original sounding at all. Awake was an attempt at them trying to fit in with the "grunge" trend and Scenes From a Memory takes more than enough from Pink Floyd that it starts to become stale after awhile.

^Plus I really doubt people are going to give two shits about DT in 30 years. Tool on the other hand might, and i say might stand the test of time.

wow, this thread took off

look: let's just get this over with.

some people don't like DT because of some extremely poor lyrics, a good deal of soloing, and a very easily hated singer.

some people love DT because of phenomenal composition, and a good deal of soloing.

to deny either of these stances is pretty ignorant. people have opinions. it happens.

If I knew they would be playing Lateralus, Aenima, or Undertow, Yes. I do own a vehicle, but I might just fly out there. On the Lateralus tour, I took 2 weeks off from work and went to the Portland, Mansfield, Hartford, Wilkes-Barre, Hershey, Philadelphia, Pittsburg, Virginia Beach, and the 2 MSG show's, so yeah, traveling a distance for a show isn't out of the question for me.

My guess is that Tool will become a band that people will look back at at being a classic band. They probably won't reach the level of Zeppelin or The Beatles in that respect, but I think it may be similar to how we view The Doors. Not quite as popular as The Beatles, but still has millions of fans.

I'm not really sure what you mean by phenomenal compositions. There's no doubt that they are fantastic musicians, but that doesn't make their songs fantastic as well. I don't know, I probably misunderstand you or something. I view compositions as the actual song and dragging a song out with a 4 minute long solo or cutting off all emotions in a song with a jam session just doesn't strike me as "phenomenal".

from the technical standpoint of composition, as in the stuff you learn in Music Theory. and as a composer, that's one of the major things i look for in a song.

and where are these 4 minute long solos? where's the lack of emotion? I find DT to be a much more emotional band than most others... especially on songs like Hell's Kitchen. Oh wait, that song has no lyrics, guess it can't be emotional. And Lines in the Sand certainly can't be moving because it's long and has a solo in the middle.

I disagree with you there. DT fans are just as rabid as Tool fans are. 1 major differance is the fact that Tool gets played on the radio and DT doesn't. For a band with no radio airplay, no videos, no promotion at all really, to sell out 95% of their shows, to me at least, would be able to 'stand the test of time'. They just don't have as large a fan base as Tool does.

all in all the similarities between the two bands.

DT rips off 46 + 2 on home

Tool Rips off the opening of New Millenium with Vicarious

but there is one odd thing. DT ripped off tool with home.... but TOOL ripped off the talk box EXACTLY from HOME. the solo in home sounds exactly the same as the talkbox solo in Jambi... i find that very very interesting. Either way my favorite band originally was metallica then megadeth then Maiden. Dream theater came next tied with Liquid Tension. But honestly James Labrie just sucks. Reason why i havent bought a DT album since Six Degrees of inner turbulence. The one after it, (i cant even remember the name now) was a joke. Not many bands can mix metal with keys very well, and DT did it up to Scenes. But jordan rudess is not a metal keyboardist. Kevin Moore wrote amazing songs. Derek Sherinian is the best keyboardist in the world. If you guys wanna listen to an amazingly talented band that just does some awesome awesome shit. Go listen to Planet X. Derek Sherinian Virgil Donatie, and i cant remember the guitarists name right now, but they are just ridiculous. anyway enough rambling TOOL still owns them all because maynard can actually sing... almost as well as Bruce Dickinson

First of all, don't jump to conclusions. I never said an instrumental couldn't have emotion to it. The quality of a song is affected by the relevance of each part and the structuring of a song. Theory-wise, yes, DT are quite awesome. They lack originality in their songs, though. Listen to "Home" if you want to hear a song dragged out by a solo. Listen to "Sacrificed Sons" if you want to hear emotion killed by a jamfest.

Tool have never ripped off DT. Listen to "Discipline" by King Crimson. Combine that with "The Patient" by Tool and that's more of the "Vicarious" intro. The DT song you mentioned is also heavily influenced by "Discipline" as well. Don't mix it up. They didn't rip off DT with the "Jambi" solo either. If anything, it was more influenced by Peter Frampton.

i wasn't replying to just you... plenty of people have made comments that i tried to retort there.

and i do agree that their development sections can go on a little long...

Oh, okay. My mistake.

Mike09 is making my points far better than I ever could. Il have no real need to post anymore.

Funny you should mention him in this thread. Ever heard him sing w/DT doing Deep Purple's 'Perfect Stranger' or Maiden's 'The Trooper', 'Where eagles dare', and 'Killers'?

You should've put on your headphones and listened to Tool instead of wasting your time with this stupid "discussion".

This is how the thread was started:
My opinion: No, I don't think it is Dream Theater inspired. Not at all.

Is it automatically a waste of time to discuss something other than the content of the first post?

Anyway, my opinion: No, I don't think it is Dream Theater inspired. Not at all. THANK THE LORD.

The vocals for Dream Theater are definately strange for music that often times dives head-first into classic metal assaults. I like Dream Theater for their mastery of the instruments and the fact that they openly give nods to other great bands that they've either been influenced by or simply enjoy. Mimicking the vocal styles of James from Metallica or Dave from Megadeth never struck me as being cheesy. I've always thought it was fun listening to throwbacks like that. I guess I enjoy DT for what they are. Some songs rock, some are a little weak but in the end they have some awesome guitar work out there that is always a blast to listen to.

Tool, on the other hand, is thought provoking. They seem to be able to build great things out of a minimal of sonic substance. No, you won't find virtuosity in terms of the guitars, but they seem to be able to offset that with interesting drumming and, frankly, some pretty decent bass work that turns their sound into something pretty unique. Lateralus was the first work of Tool's that sucked me into their world. It remains one of my favorite albums of all time.

'nuff said imho...

I gotta stop you right there man. Ticks and Leeches isn't shit compared to what DT can belt out. Try "Panic Attack" especially, and "The Glass Prison" "This Dying soul" etc... there are plenty

(keeping in mind we take away both singers in this instance) those songs make Tool sound like Coldplay.

Sorry, I was summarizing the arguments up to that point...these are not my opinions...please shut up.

LOL! DT could easily learn and play all of Tools songs to perfection in a matter of a day! Tool on the other hand would never be able to learn, much less play a single album of DT's in their lifetime.

Yet, Dream Theater will never be able to write as good of songs as Tool have been for the last 14 years.

^OUCH

Please, dude don't bother...I prefer DT to Tool any day!

For the record: some people recommended "Scenes from a Memory". I don't. I'd recommend "Train of Thought" "Six Degrees of Inner Turbulence" and "Octavarium" before that.

and to polish this thread, Porn and dischordance: you are the stupidest fucking pieces of cyber-shit Ive poisoned my eyes with.