Hey hey, wanted to start a thread on god and religon and all the crap. I want people to post quotes from Tool about their thoughts on religon and god. Post quote / song title / and what you think about it!
thanks
Original Gangsta Tool
__________________ there are only two things that are infinite.. space. time.
first of all id just like to say that until mjk actually comes out and says, i dont believe in god, you cant say what he does and doesnt believe in, just because he seems to mach christ in couple of songs doesnt mean he doesnt believe in god, im guessing nobody on this website actually writes themselves, you never come out and say exactly what your thinking, sometimes you say the opposite of what you think to get your point across, and sometimes you write from other perspectives from your on, personally i beleive that christianity was just a way to conform society in a time when there was no conformity, and even if mjk is anti-christianity it doesnt mean he's against god, god and christianty are not one just because your little black book says so, thats all i have to say about it
It's interesting that people insist on looking at Tool's music as a comment on the band's religious beliefs, because I don't think the music says anything one way or the other. I can't think of a single tool song about god or religion- they're all about human beings. They're all about how human beings deal with concepts like life, love, anger, addiction, and closed-mindedness. They're about us, and the band members, not about god. People argue "Third Eye", but that, in my opinion, was about Maynard finding himself, not god. Whenever religion or religious imagery has been incorporated into their music , it has been METAPHORICAL. Their songs are commentary about humans and the lives we live, not about religion. They could have any religious beliefs under the sun, from atheism to Native American Polytheism- but their music doesn't tell us. Their music, in my opinion, is about us, and themselves, as humans on a journey of self-discovery, growth, and realization of certain things about ourselves. I think that might be why people connect to it on such an important level.
Last edited by Mr. Zebra; 07-16-2003 at 11:28 AM..
if maynards lyrics have absolutely nothing to do with god or religion then i dont think he would say anything about god or religion. i mean i could understand if it was just 2 or 3 references in their whole catalog, but there are refernces in all of the albums. the only one that doesnt come out and say it blatantly is lateralus. i dont think maynards lyrics should be compared to religion in every context, but theres some shit you just can deny.
i mean come on... "come down, get off your fucking cross..." "jesus christ why dont you come save my life now?" "you calimed all this time you would die for me why then are you so......"
you get the point. but then again maynard himself said the song is about what it means to you. yet i still think it would be safe to say maynard has a couple personal conflicts with some anonymous religions.
Those are all METAPHORICAL references, friend. He's using religious images and ideas as an alegory for life and emotional situations. These aren't statements about his beliefs. In "Eulogy" he's using Christian imagery in a satirical fashion to mock the subject of the song, namely (according to Maynard) L. Ron Hubbard. It's the same with these other references. None of them are directly addressed to a diety, and all of them are used as tools, metaphors and images to explore larger life situations. You have to look at the religious references WITHIN THE CONTEXT OF THE SONG'S MESSAGE- as I said, none of the songs are about god; as I see it, they're all about human beings. Maynard is not speaking literally when he's talking about a cross, or someone dying for him. When I'm songwriting I do this kind of thing all the time. Just look at the references within the context of the idea of the song. Or do you need a basic lesson in modern poetry? These references, along with Tool's other metaphorical references, are images and ideas applied to human life situations."Schism" is titled after what you call it when a church separates into factions, but it's about a relationship deteriorating. "Undertow" doesn't mean Maynard has some special interest in ocean tides, it's about the process of addiction. I don't even want to contemplate what you get if you interpret the title of "Hooker With A Penis" literally. In "Disgustipated" it's a church sermon; in "Dei Eier von Satan" it's a recipe diguised as a Nazi rally. Maynard is not making a point about pastries or Nazis; he is making a point about people's assumptions. Need I continue? Of course, maybe I'm full of shit. Go ahead and find me a religious reference in their lyrics that doesn't fit this description. Oh, and read the liner notes in Aenema... what they say about beliefs...
Last edited by Mr. Zebra; 07-16-2003 at 04:39 PM..
Mr. Zebra:"Those are all METAPHORICAL references, friend........"
THOSE ARE ALL? i mean really, no offence to your theory, we all have them....BUT when did you become a spokesperson for tool?
you being an artist of music, i can understand you making that assumption. but really can you compare your own music to them? NO i'm not putting them up on a throne, i'm merely stating that there "lateral" thinking is probably greater than yours or mine.
prove to me that they are ALL METAPHORICAL and i will be silent, but really that statement is obscene.
Point i'm making is, you are right to an extent, but in absolute no one can be sure. i mean really ever thought that maynard or one of the other band members would come straight out and attack various religions or beliefs? i doubt it. they way they think i wouldn't put it past them that they could conjour up metaphorical means as a mode of creating blindng beliefs
__________________ "Every girls two drinks away from being lesbian MOE!! LETS PARTY!!" --Byron Wilson
I don't think that it is religion itself, or the actual belief.
I think it is the selfproclaimed mediums of God, priests, that are targeted. The way they say you have to do this, you have to do that in order to get along with God is disliked. Priests use religion to gain power and wealth for themselves, at least they did some centuries ago. They have just handed out their wiew of things and expect people to swallow it. It's the middle-men who are victims for the criticism I think, not religion itself.
__________________ To Oddvar - honour the dead, complete the mission...
- Tom Clancy
this is true. in the renaissance the church sold things called indulgences, which would let you have a hooker, etc. since you "bought" it, which is big big bullshit. the fact is many churches DID use their esteem to gain money and other things, but that type of stuff doesn't happen as much today.
i just want to say that dueler25 seems to not live in modern times or atleast live in any kind of civilization, religion has become one the top corporate grossers of the world, think about how many christian book stores you've seen, or how many religious products you see on the market today, religion still makes billions of dollars a year of people blinded enough to buy into it, just like every other corporation. the society man kind has progressed into comes down to nothing else besides money, its what makes the world go round. everything that can be bought or sold is made for the sole purpose of money, yes even tools cd's and shirts, they were also made for the sake of money, not because they want the world to hear there beautiful music, if they were already all billionaires i doubt they'd be saleing cd's, they'd just be doing it for themselves like they are now, its just right now they can do it and make money so why not.
Um, ax4moe- why are you assuming so much?
A. you've never heard my music.
B. You don't know the members of Tool, but you're assuming their superiority. This is what we call "blind following". So yes, you are putting them up on a throne. I'm not assuming my superiority, but I'm certainly not assuming my inferiority- or yours, for that matter.
C. I notice that, despite your gorgeous rhetoric, you still didn't name a single non-metaphorical reference. I'm waiting.
The metaphors they use aren't there just to confuse you, freind. They're communicating sophisticated ideas. They're not impossible to understand. I know what I've heard Maynard say specific songs are about, and I know what basic poetic analysis says about certain songs- like "Schism" being about the breakdown of a relationship. From there, I apply the religious imagery in the song, which is almost always linked to the song's other imagery, WITHIN THE SONG'S OVERALL CONTEXT. This is English 101 stuff. I'm not saying that I hold any kind of omniscient sway over the meanings of the songs, and OBVIOUSLY all of these songs are open to interpretation and application AS A WHOLE SONG- but it's not that difficult to know when an image is being used metaphorically to contribute to a song's overall idea. Again, name me one Tool song that isn't about human beings; a song where this isn't the case.
And I'm not really sure what you're trying to say in the last paragraph, about Tool using metaphors to conjure up blinding beliefs (because it sounds like you're chasing your tail to me), but I think you should, once again, revisit what the Aenema liner notes have to say about beliefs.
Last edited by Mr. Zebra; 07-17-2003 at 12:05 AM..
this is true. in the renaissance the church sold things called indulgences, which would let you have a hooker, etc. since you "bought" it, which is big big bullshit. the fact is many churches DID use their esteem to gain money and other things, but that type of stuff doesn't happen as much today.
Quote:
Originally Posted by neochrist
i just want to say that dueler25 seems to not live in modern times or atleast live in any kind of civilization, religion has become one the top corporate grossers of the world, think about how many christian book stores you've seen, or how many religious products you see on the market today, religion still makes billions of dollars a year of people blinded enough to buy into it, just like every other corporation. the society man kind has progressed into comes down to nothing else besides money, its what makes the world go round. everything that can be bought or sold is made for the sole purpose of money, yes even tools cd's and shirts, they were also made for the sake of money, not because they want the world to hear there beautiful music, if they were already all billionaires i doubt they'd be saleing cd's, they'd just be doing it for themselves like they are now, its just right now they can do it and make money so why not.
It doesn't happen in the same fashion as it did back then. People don't buy letters of indulgence anymore and crap like that. People are more enlightened now than before, mostly due to technology. With radio, TV, internet etc. communication barriers have been broken, but there is of course a digital overflow of information, no one is able to control it. Most of it isn't ever true.
Here is an example of modern-day use of religion to get money:
Here in Norway, there is channel on digital TV that is called "Vision Norway." It is a christian channel, obviously part of some European network. Still the beg pople for money so they can uphold their broadcast. Dozens of people give monthly contributions and send it letter and e-mail to get a prayer and/or salvation. It can't cost a lot to keep this on the air, but the still get shitloads of money every month. Even more people are making single contributions. I'm not saying that a lot of people are doing this, but more than enough to pay those guys bills and put food on their table if you know what I mean.
__________________ To Oddvar - honour the dead, complete the mission...
- Tom Clancy
i never said the churches are making money in the same fashoin as during the renaissance, i said they still do it and do it just as cleverly as they did back then, you act like how they do it now is less sneaky and mischevious, some of its worst, especially the people on tv who act like they have the power to heal so they can make thousands of dollars a night, it makes me sick to see people use other peopls beliefs for money like that, i myself am not christian but it still pains me to see people so blindly put there money into things like that, as tool says in opiate, "deaf and blind and dumb and born to follow" thats what people are, and they look to these people to follow and they get cheated...
The band's views toward a god really do not matter. While we're at it let's also talk about their views on beastiality, because they hold just about the same significance.
in recent "enlightenment" from my friend MR. Zebra, i feel the need to express my feelings concerned with his most humble answers:
"A. you've never heard my music. "
correct, i haven't, but the fact states that you telling me this over a tool opinion forum clearly states to me and the rest of the users that we can assume tools musical talent IS better than yours. sorry but i think it's true :)
"B. You don't know the members of Tool, but you're assuming their superiority. "
correct also, but neither do you.
like i said in my last post i was "...merely stating that there 'lateral' thinking is PROBABLY greater than yours or mine...."
this can also be proved a valid point, primarily because YOU are on a forum about THEM. i really couldn't see them looking up a web page about you my friend, without the use of speed, pills or any other narcotic to keep them awake. Once again what i said before was mere humbleness and knowing where my place is on the "food chain", if you will.
As for C, heres a little 101 english for yourself:
Ticks and Leeches
"Suck me Dry"
Suck being a verb;
To draw (liquid) into the mouth by movements of the tongue and lips that create suction.
Me being used as the direct object of a verb: Suck me.
AND Dry being the absence of natural or normal moisture:
For example, dryness being and inconsistency between your lips from the constant drooling and blabbering of the words "i know everything"
so there you go
i think the Line "Suck me dry" is pretty straight forward. if not, put it into practice and go suck someones dick or something :). i would have to say even you can't get a metaphor out of that.
but like i said, the fact you said the bands lyrics are "ALL METAPHORICAL" is absurd and i stand by that.
and the fact you only talk about lyrics just being the primary source of what a song means is also a lack of knowledge, if you knew any better there are things called instruments that influence bands meanings also.
__________________ "Every girls two drinks away from being lesbian MOE!! LETS PARTY!!" --Byron Wilson
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metaphors
A metaphor is a comparison. Maynard's lyrics are not ambiguous to a point where it becomes a positive message that can be defended, the metaphors he use delve deeper into his subject as reinforcement.
When Maynard writes about Hicks in Eulogy he uses christ as a metaphor, he says hicks is a martyr just as Jesus was. Intelligent people often have obscure but brilliant ways of depicting emotions or information. A metaphor is also a division separating and comparing, so Hicks is relative to his christ and vice-versa. Think about this and the metaphor disappears since Jesus, in this song, is related to Hicks just as Hicks is described as Jesus.
When Maynard reveals truths by using Metaphors it brings to life his belief about god. So each half of the metaphor is pertinant because they feed of eachother. I could say this song is about Kurt Kobain or Hitler and say they are a metaphor for God. I can say just about anything and switch it around because once deep thought takes root the objective is never perfect but dynamic and righteous. The old testament is an ideal METAPHOR to what I just said. How many different copies of the old testament are there? Many. All of the copies have the same positive message and direction. Particular versus in the bible are totally different and yet as a whole it is symmetric.
and yeah when you say all the song's that are about humanity are supposedly relative to dogma but never about dogma that is so broad and pointless. Name me a metaphor in one of his songs and I will show you a possible way it isn't. Like im so smart because all the songs about humanity are all about religion and all the songs about religion are about humanity I revealed that with my infinite wisdom. What you did was emphasize a trivial subject by explaining what is common sense in your uncoscious attempt to lessen or debunk tools writings.
Yeah most of Tools lyrics are about humanity in fact all of their songs are you genius. Do you see fucking God or Jesus or Osiris or Zeus buying their record? no, and animals can't read so who the fuck else would his lyrics be about? He is human and no matter what he says he is writing about humanity, religion is an aspect of humanity. oooh another metaphor now I have an erection.
but maybe I am wrong since religion can also be a metaphor for self. In fact lets just say everything is a metaphor it will be so simple. Anyhing with a hidden relation can be anything and nothing. War is a metaphor for the absense of peace so when there is no peace we must be having war. When there is peace there can be no disaggreements since any dispute is metaphor for war.
I am being a smart ass and very sarcastic, and I feel like an idiot for replying to such a vain topic.
I stopped reading the posts when they became attacks on each other.
I take Zebra's side when it comes to this topic. Yes, I think ALL the lyrics mentioned in this thread have metaphorical value that exceeds the literal value by leaps and bounds. In Opiate, the topic is how religion can dumb a person down to the point where they cant feel anything else. That sucks. In Eulogy (god, have we gone over this) he is using the example of christ to say how stupid and subhuman it is to follow a leader blindly, as well as the hysterical idiocy of the crowd when they tire of the leader.
The most intelligent message anyone has posted is that the message of Lateralus shows how we are all a part of the thing some call God, some call collective, and some call energy. There is no substitute for direct experience.
eslupminoyler- um, I'm not trying to debunk anyone. Actually, I find the band's metaphorical prowess, and their focus on the human condition, very uplifting, enlightening and thought-provoking. That's why I listen to them. And this is an opinion page, right? I'm fairly certain I've been sharing my opinion all this time. But actually, I liked your post, and agreed with a lot of it. except when you said we're vain to be discussing such things. I don't see how that is. That's why this board exists, right? And then towards the end, you just kind of started ranting, and drawing some bizarre conclusions that really don't make much sense. What would you have us do on a discussion board, sans "discussing"? The focus of the band's music is a vain, trivial topic? You're filled with such hostility... *whimper*. And then you started distorting the meaning of the word "metaphor"... Whatever.
Paraflux- Yeah, you rock- I think you got what I was saying. I appreciate that. I wasn't trying to be a dick about it, I swear. I really don't think I ever actively attacked anyone, come to think of it. I always just stated my opinion. If that's really enough to get to people, sorry- but I don't think it should be. As Tool fans, I honestly don't think someone stating and restating a viewpoint contrary to yours should piss you guys off nearly this much. You guys should have more self-confidence than that. Oh, well...
axe4moe- Wow. You actually allowed yourself to resort to just insulting me. I probably shouldn't mention this, but you've just made those same three assumptions for the third time in a row. And no, I honestly don't think that "Ticks and Leeches" is LITERALLY about someone sucking on Maynard. Could be, but somehow I doubt it. It's cool that you know English though, I guess. Bravo. But I didn't say that Tool's lyrics were ALL figurative- I just said that their religious references are, in my opinion. And it's kind of sad (in my opinion) that you only aknowledge that music is good if it gets mass commercial exposure. I'm only 18, and I've just started recording. Of course I don't have any mass exposure. The scariest thing by far, though, is your continued assumption that the members of Tool are superior to you in some way. I don't think that's the kind of thinking they encourage. Not that I give a FUCK what kind of thinking they encourage. Think for yourself. "Capacity for lateral thinking??" I happen to believe that you or I have just as much potential as the members of Tool, thank you very much. I have a hunch that Maynard thinks the same thing. Remember what he said about faith in his fellow man? I saw them live in Long Beach on the Lateralus tour. That evening, Maynard issued a challenge. he turned to the crowd and said "I have an assignment for you. I want you people to go out there, and I want you to make us DINOSAURS. I want you to make us COMPLETELY OBSOLETE." I don't know about you, but I'm accepting that challenge.
Oh, and axe4moe- I talked about lyrics because we were discussing the lyrics. I'm a jazz musician. I write instrumentals, a lot of the time. I play piano, guitar, drums, bass (electric and upright), cello, and harmonica (although I really don't count harmonoca). So.... um.... No.
Last edited by Mr. Zebra; 07-21-2003 at 08:44 PM..
Location: I live in Heaven, but I'm on a vacation without my passport to get back.
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zebra-
I said unconsciously that you debunked tool, so whether or not you did it on purpose I didn't verify. Meaning I dont think you did it on purpose and while this sight isn't so powerful as to sway a negative toll on tool, you did it nevertheless, not a big deal.
My ranting at the end does make sense however unclear it is. I was just commenting on the interchangeable ability of ideas one possesses when using metaphors. This, I said only to defeat your idea that Metaphors, however indirect to the obvious interpretation aren't about God but someone else, i.e. God in eulogy. I say it could really could be about God, though in this instance I think you are right, and that song isn't about God.
Knowing the fluid nature of a Metaphor, how can anyone really say it could ever be distorted, I suppose it is possible.
We are in no way vain for discussing this. I just think it is useless to assume that a metaphor used destroys the possibility of the obvious but doubtful truths actually are true. This leads to pessimism and closemindedness, which puzzles me because you seem optimistic and openminded.
So what my whole post was trying to say was simply that sometimes something so obvious must not be the answer to the equated lyrics, but in reality it might be, the metaphor could be a distraction or just a clever way to make the main point brighter, greater, or more mystic.
Gotcha. I understand now. Oh- what i meant when I said said distorting the word "metaphor"- The basic definition is a word, image, or idea ostensibly unrelated to the main image or idea, but used to clarify or add meaning. At the end of your post I though you were using the word for something else, but I understand what you're saying now. I agree that we shouldn't assume hidden meanings behind everything; only where reasonable. Thanks for clarifiying, dude.
Last edited by Mr. Zebra; 07-21-2003 at 06:48 PM..
while were all at it, why dont we all get together soon and nail ourselves to crosses as a metaphor for the way we all bitch at each other and "crucify" each others opinions. which by the way nobodys opinion is neither right nor wrong, for there to be right or wrong there has to be truth, and there is no truth so therefore we can neither be right or wrong.
Don't look now, but you're stating a truth. And negating the opinion of anyone that may actually believe truth, or a reason for living, exists somewhere. You could run in that circle for ages, or you could join the discussion and throw ideas around. There's nothing wrong with debate, neochrist (I'd be curious about the significance of your name). As long as you don't resort to insults.
hey mr.zebra. actually you got me, it was a truth, but it was also thought by my brain which has formed this reality so it couldnt have been factual anyways, what im trying to say is everything we know is formed by our view of reality, when actually this reality is not true reality, its perception, so anything in this reality could not be truth, you get what im trying to say, anyways, my name is a very sarcastic one given to me by one of my friends because i have all these strange ideas on how our reality would be different if certain things had never happened, and he said i sounded like i was forming a new religion to piss me off, since i beleive that all religions are just forms of controlling the human race, anyways it stuck and its my nick name now
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while were all at it, why dont we all get together soon and nail ourselves to crosses as a metaphor for the way we all bitch at each other and "crucify" each others opinions. which by the way nobodys opinion is neither right nor wrong, for there to be right or wrong there has to be truth, and there is no truth so therefore we can neither be right or wrong.
-neochrist
How very unintersting this is, as you to nail me to the cross for this disgustipateassassination.
you may find it uninteresting because i was maching you, or maybe you just have different interest than getting mached, by which case you would find me maching you uninteresting, by the way, if you repent now i wont send you to tool forum hell, yes once again i am maching you
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truth and potential
i am and forget what it is to start since end is not a thought but a begining I forget
I insult people so they think of deeper ways to diffuse my thoughts, A test of ego's or better yet a test of a lack of ego obviously doing this answers the question, Is my ego to large? probably, maybe this will help me, maybe not
i just want to say im sorry because apparently making sarcastic comments towards forum posts that i think are uneducated responses due to my opinion must be mached fully, im not saying your opinion is wrong and im not saying im right, im saying im maching you because i want too
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mocking
I would never mock or criticize someone unless I cared about them or in this case I respect what they say and figure a squaring off between us would lead to intellectual growth
well what i'm trying to say is that, by m-o-c-k-ing you i'm showing that i care about your value as a person so very much, thanks for the great memories, yes i'm m-o-c-k-ing everybody once again....
i just want to say that dueler25 seems to not live in modern times or atleast live in any kind of civilization, religion has become one the top corporate grossers of the world, think about how many christian book stores you've seen, or how many religious products you see on the market today, religion still makes billions of dollars a year of people blinded enough to buy into it, just like every other corporation. the society man kind has progressed into comes down to nothing else besides money, its what makes the world go round. everything that can be bought or sold is made for the sole purpose of money, yes even tools cd's and shirts, they were also made for the sake of money, not because they want the world to hear there beautiful music, if they were already all billionaires i doubt they'd be saleing cd's, they'd just be doing it for themselves like they are now, its just right now they can do it and make money so why not.
You make several valid points. I simply meant that churches nowadays don't abuse their congregations with stuff like indulgences as happened back in the 14 and 1500's. And yes, I know Catholic priests have gotten attention for child abuse, but by and large these abuses of the word of God have diminished significantly compared to what they were back in the Middle Ages.
o.k. sorry, I came in late, but when are we going to crucify ourselves? And where?
Oh, one more thing, if we are all going to crucify ourselves, who determines who will be the last left standing, as I assume it will be quite difficult to get someone up on a cross when you yourself are..........well..........crucified.
-side note- I like it when arguments or difference of opinions are worked out through communication and understanding. Good on you, and have a beer for me.
Kind regards,
Andy
__________________ Chasing the Trail of smoke and reason
i don't want anybody to think i am against any type of religion, i dont consider myself part of any religion, but unlike many christians i know, i've read the complete bible, and i take from it things i feel make me a more complete person if there is such a thing, i learn from many religions, and the reason dueler25 you may think that religion does not take advantage of people as they did during the middle ages is because they do now just as they did then, hide the fact there using them, think about it, in the middle ages people werent going, the church is screwing us over with these indulgences, 500 years from now man is gonna look back at us and probably say, damn they were stupid for buying into that stuff, just as we reflect on indulgences in the middle ages.
i don't want anybody to think i am against any type of religion, i dont consider myself part of any religion, but unlike many christians i know, i've read the complete bible, and i take from it things i feel make me a more complete person if there is such a thing, i learn from many religions, and the reason dueler25 you may think that religion does not take advantage of people as they did during the middle ages is because they do now just as they did then, hide the fact there using them, think about it, in the middle ages people werent going, the church is screwing us over with these indulgences, 500 years from now man is gonna look back at us and probably say, damn they were stupid for buying into that stuff, just as we reflect on indulgences in the middle ages.
Actually, the public knew that the Catholics were fucking them with the indulgences, but they couldn't fight back bc the establishment was too large and powerful. Martin Luther was the exception, and he obviously ended/diminished this to a significant degree.
I understand how it seems that people are making money off the word of God with Christian bookstores and all that stuff, but even the followers know when they're being fucked.
first of all id just like to say that until mjk actually comes out and says, i dont believe in god, you cant say what he does and doesnt believe in, just because he seems to mach christ in couple of songs doesnt mean he doesnt believe in god, im guessing nobody on this website actually writes themselves, you never come out and say exactly what your thinking, sometimes you say the opposite of what you think to get your point across, and sometimes you write from other perspectives from your on, personally i beleive that christianity was just a way to conform society in a time when there was no conformity, and even if mjk is anti-christianity it doesnt mean he's against god, god and christianty are not one just because your little black book says so, thats all i have to say about it
You're an idiot. Shutup.
__________________ "a mass of gallon sloth, as flys have walls for feet, a rapturous-verbatim-someone said but who's to know, and when you find the fringe, the one last hit that spent you, you'll find the ossuary is spilling by the day"
