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Old 09-04-2006, 06:28 AM   #1
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Tool and the Occult

Although I've been visiting this site for a few years, this is my first post. Some things I should say first:

1. I am a huge fan, I like 10,000 days a lot.
2. I am a Christian.
3. I do not look to rock music or musicians for any kind of spiritual guidance.

The reason for this post is that I've been doing quite a bit of research into Tool and their musical influences. Their stuff is heavily layered and very enigmatic and begs to be explored. So I took the bait. Even though I do not take any offense at any of MJK's lyrics or rants about organized religion, I'm a little concerned that a lot of people, especially younger people, view them as gospel. Which is a little sad.

It's obvious that Tool is inspired and influenced by many different "belief" structures and it's really cool for them to incorporate that into their art, which is really what art is all about: expressing yourself, your ideas, etc.

It would seem more productive and tolerant to spend more energy suggesting new ideas than attacking old ones, though. A case in point: in 2001 my brother and I saw Tool in Raleigh, NC. They played Opiate near the end of the show and everyone went nuts. But, when the song was over, there was a girl behind us, all goth-ed out, jumping up and down and clapping her hands, screaming "Fuck God, Fuck god!!"

To me, that just seems sad. I believe that had MJK been sitting beside her he would've been a little disappointed at the reaction his art produced. I also believe that *most* people do not take the time to really look into deeper spiritual things themselves and make their own educated decisions. It's a lot easier to hop on a bandwagon that's led by a loud voice and vent your own frustration. A cop out, if you ask me. By conforming to non-conformism, you're still conforming! Selling out to a different man is still selling out. To me, a central message in this music is to question authority--ALL authority-- and think, learn, and decide for yourself. My own experience with organized religion has been very productive and enlightening. In other words, I did the research, looked beyond the bullshit you see on the Sunday morning TV, and found truth and meaning in the Bible of all places--NOT the people you see making money off the Bible. It's a lot harder to do that than just vent at the establishment. Still, I try to be tolerant of other ideas and beliefs, even those in Tool's music.

Which leads me to the Occult/Mystic stuff. Now if someone really finds truth in these ideas and it makes their lives better and brings them a measure of satisfaction and peace, that's great. But exploring the Occult/Crowley has been a pasttime of rock stars for a while now. Jimmy Page dabbled in the Occult for years, only to remark about the whole experience in later life that it was "unfortunate".
The guys from Sabbath did the same--it actually led to the name of the band--but had experiences that made them swear the stuff off for good.

So if you're lookng for a good scare, or just wanna know what's out there, or like Danny Carey, want to go to Kansas to find the gateway to Hell (which, by the way, is just the kind of thing these guys would say to get a laugh, I never can figure out what to take seriously, so I take none of it seriously. I liken Tool to Rush: science fiction, with emphasis on the fiction part. Still a fun ride, though.) then that's okay. But why push it as "the alternative" to Christianity or any other religion? You're just trading one belief system for another. Still conforming to what's considered cooler at the moment. Which ain't so cool. Like armband tatoos or parachute pants.

Here's an analogy: Everyone knows a guy like this: One day you walk into work or school or whatever with a baseball cap on, let's say a Yankees hat. And this guy says "So, you're a Yankees fan, huh?" and you are, and he says, "Way to blow the World Series last year. And then he blasts your fave football team or music or movie or your favorite color even, so you get tired of his crap and you ask him: "okay well who do YOU like?" and he says: "oh I don't follow baseball."
Everybody hates that guy! What a cop out. All criticism and no substance. Sometimes, that's exactly what Tool makes me feel like. And when I've had enough, I turn it off. But then one morning I wake up with the riff from Prison Sex ringing in my head and I tune in and turn on again.

So my problem is with the same hypocrisy in Tool's message that they find in everyone else's. And for them to say "Yeah, we know we're hypocrites" is the worst cop-out of all. It hurts my teeth. So c'mon fellas, do something truly meaningful. Otherwise it feels more and more like you're manufacturing anger to sell records.

Still love ya, though. My conundrum.
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Old 09-04-2006, 06:43 AM   #2
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Re: Tool and the Occult

Great Post , I agree.
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Old 09-04-2006, 06:51 AM   #3
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Re: Tool and the Occult

Manufacturing anger? If anything, Aenima was their "angry" album, with Lateralus and 10,000 Days much less angry.

Other than that, i agree in some part to what you are saying.

Buggered if i can find a link, but i remember reading somewhere that Danny Carey is distantly related to Aleister Crowley.
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Old 09-04-2006, 07:11 AM   #4
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Re: Tool and the Occult

I don't get it... are you telling us not to listen to Tool or what?
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Old 09-04-2006, 07:15 AM   #5
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Re: Tool and the Occult

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Originally Posted by MORNING_GLORY View Post
I don't get it... are you telling us not to listen to Tool or what?
No, he's pretty much extended the "Think for yourself, question authority" motif.
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Old 09-04-2006, 07:38 AM   #6
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Re: Tool and the Occult

Religions and philosophies are two different things. What Tool's meesage is, is just that- a philosophy. People listen to it and decide to follow it and make their lives better. I do agree though that some people take it too seriously and cross the line of worshipping Tool.

With the girl you were talking about at the concert, she was probably some torn apart life who looked for guidance. Desperately looking and she found Tool. She probably wanted it really bad and just took their message the wrong way. Opiate is about the christian religion's flaws but it's not about the god they follow.
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Old 09-04-2006, 10:51 AM   #7
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Re: Tool and the Occult

Tool never asked to be taken all that seriously; that's the thing. All they have ever wanted -- and this is based on what I've gathered from their music thus far and what I've heard them express in interviews -- is to get us thinking and talking while still giving us something interesting to listen to.

They've never claimed to be some higher power or even know-it-alls. They just like to do what they do because they love to do it and hope to light a spark under a few brain cells' asses in the process.

Aside from a couple of songs on Lateralus and also Wings/10kDays, Tool's music -- other than some really interesting instrumental dynamics and Maynard's creative use of vocabulary -- has never really been that deep. The band just knows how to twist incredibly cool sounds out of relatively simple techinques (polyrhythms, dissonant and atonal harmonic ideas, push-pull instrumental motifs, all-around funkiness).

But when it comes down to it, just as Maynard said to the rowdy crowd at Street Scene '06: "It's only rock 'n' roll."

That's my take on it.
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Old 09-04-2006, 11:45 AM   #8
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Re: Tool and the Occult

Black Sabbath got their name from a movie poster.
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Old 09-04-2006, 12:04 PM   #9
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Re: Tool and the Occult

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Originally Posted by guitarpete987 View Post
Tool never asked to be taken all that seriously; that's the thing. All they have ever wanted -- and this is based on what I've gathered from their music thus far and what I've heard them express in interviews -- is to get us thinking and talking while still giving us something interesting to listen to.

They've never claimed to be some higher power or even know-it-alls. They just like to do what they do because they love to do it and hope to light a spark under a few brain cells' asses in the process.

Aside from a couple of songs on Lateralus and also Wings/10kDays, Tool's music -- other than some really interesting instrumental dynamics and Maynard's creative use of vocabulary -- has never really been that deep. The band just knows how to twist incredibly cool sounds out of relatively simple techinques (polyrhythms, dissonant and atonal harmonic ideas, push-pull instrumental motifs, all-around funkiness).

But when it comes down to it, just as Maynard said to the rowdy crowd at Street Scene '06: "It's only rock 'n' roll."

That's my take on it.
Quoted for Truthiness.
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Old 09-04-2006, 12:09 PM   #10
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Re: Tool and the Occult

what a typical Christian just bash on everything you disagree with fuckin' homophobic racist asshole. Go vent in some stupid ass christian blog with the rest of your sheep. I think for the most part tool fans understand that they're artist not the new fuckin' jesus. so go worship a book.
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Old 09-04-2006, 12:50 PM   #11
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Re: Tool and the Occult

Coming from someone who's name is "Big Weenie"...

Everyone has a right to an opinion here, especially if it's proposed it a respectful manner, so don't bash on him for that.

And who says all Christians are racist homophobes?
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Old 09-04-2006, 02:53 PM   #12
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Re: Tool and the Occult

Maybe I should have phrased some of that differently. In the past Tool (and by extension APC, MJK being the common thread) have seemingly singled out and attacked Christianity, along with politics, etc. Lately, with Lateralus and 10,000 Days they've subtly suggested alternative belief systems, not committing to any one, but layering all kinds of things into their music. Some of it is very scientific. Some of it is very mystic.

So throw Christianity out the door for a moment. Can anyone say that the Occult (and I don't mean Devil worship) really offers realistic solutions to man's problems? Aleister Crowley was, and I didn't know the guy--do your own research--seemingly a dirtbag of a man. He was racist, chauvinist, a drug addict and sexual deviant. I've read that his last words were something along the lines of "I'm an unhappy man."

So this opens a can of worms as to the responsibilty of an artist. I just can't see how exposing younger or more vulnerable, impressionable fans to this kind of influence can make the world a better place. And I'm not talking about blaming Ozzy for Suicide Solution. Tool seems to genuinely want to make the world a different place. I want to say *better* place, but if this is the direction they want to point their fans, I'm not so sure.

Again--everyone can make their own decision. That's a wonderful thing. But a child cannot always make a mature decision. Bottom line. I mean seriously, if Danny Carey wants to find the entrance to "Hell," whatever that may be, what does he think he's gonna do? Send a postcard? Take a motorized tour? If he channels energies and draws upon mystic forces and summons a "daemon," whatever that is, are there no consequences? Isn't he tapping into a darker, malevolent force? I don't see qualities like peace and tolerance resulting from such an act. So if they incorporate this stuff into their music, what good can come from listening to it?

I don't know the answers to these questions. I don't think there are solutions, at least not easy ones. But I do think Tool itself is one of the authorities that should be "questioned". They'd probably agree. And if anyone thinks that no one puts any real value into this music, you need look no farther than some of topics and posts on this website to see just how much real religious value people infuse into this band's music. Maybe you and I don't, but click around.
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Old 09-04-2006, 06:11 PM   #13
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Re: Tool and the Occult

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Originally Posted by BigWeenie View Post
what a typical Christian just bash on everything you disagree with fuckin' homophobic racist asshole. Go vent in some stupid ass christian blog with the rest of your sheep. I think for the most part tool fans understand that they're artist not the new fuckin' jesus. so go worship a book.
Get the fuck out of this forum.
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Old 09-04-2006, 06:57 PM   #14
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Re: Tool and the Occult

Shining One, I see where you're going, but I have to for the most part disagree.

I, too, am a Christian. If you read my earlier post, well, I was saying that I don't believe Tool really want's you to take them THAT seriously. They just want to get us thinking and talking about things and the world we live in, with the goal of getting us to look into things for ourselves and make our own decisions.

Other than asking us to open our eyes and think for ourselves, they never preach this is bad, this is right, or anything like that.

I'm going to point out two of the most common of Maynard's perceived "attacks" on Christianity.

Opiate, the song, is not an attack on Christianity, but is an attack on those who dedicate themselves to the religion, both the preachers and the followers, with insincere or false intentions.

Judith isn't an attack on Christianity, but the rantings of a frustrated son who can't understand his mother's ceaseless devotion to a God who left her paralyzed.

I don't believe that anyone in Tool is a Christian, but I do believe that any apparent attack on Christianity by the band is purely for shock value and only to, quite simply, get people riled up.

Regarding the occult, evil is a point of view, after all, and there are many perfectly honest and upstanding people who find the occult fascinating.

I consider myself a Christian, but I also believe that one's beliefs, even a satanist's, does not make that person evil, or good, for that matter.

It's just rock and roll. It's up to the listener, and I think you underestimate what young minds are capable of. I was a teenager when Opiate (the album) came out, and I didn't take the Gaping Lotus Experience as anything evil. I thought it was funny, and I found Maynard's biblical references in Sober to be thought-provoking, not evil. There's no way to better understand your own beliefs than to have someone make you uncomfortable about them. Now that I understand the song better, I know what he was talking about. It was both simple and a little complicated at the same time. But never was it so deep that I had to become a slave to it.

Besides, I knew a guy once who played the figure of a good, Jesus-loving man who sang church songs for little kids all day long. He was a well-liked man in the community with a million dollar smile and the scriptures memorized like the back of his hand. Turns out he was molesting those little boys he was singing the songs to.

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Old 09-04-2006, 07:26 PM   #15
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Re: Tool and the Occult

It's funny that in the USA you could throw a stone and likely hit a christian. In other places, like Canada for example, that sort of thing just isn't a part of daily life. This seems to be why many Canadians just don't understand the need for songs, movies, books, etc. about how absurd organized religion is - they got over it long ago. Yeah, I like Canada.
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Old 09-04-2006, 09:12 PM   #16
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Re: Tool and the Occult

Because Canadians think God is a good game of hockey.
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Old 09-04-2006, 09:29 PM   #17
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Re: Tool and the Occult

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Because Canadians think God is a good game of hockey.
I'd rather spend my time finding God while slapping around a puck and a couple of punks than fighting off sleep at church or debating where the most advantageous spot on my bumper is for my Xtian fish symbol or Jesus "is the best thing ever" related stickers.
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Old 09-04-2006, 10:11 PM   #18
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Re: Tool and the Occult

I question christianity because religion must be a construct of human minds. You know deep inside your reasoning brain that Jesus wasnt the son of god and that all the superstitious parts of the bible is only fiction. I can agree on one thing with the christians. Something propably have created the universe and if you want to call that force "God" then I to belivie in your god, but everything else in all religions is only people trying to make sense of the world and everything around them. I am no marxist but I can truly agree in the notion that religion is the opiate of the people.

People in the states and many parts of the world is scared of muslim extremist... Well, christian extrimests isnt any better they only use other means than the muslims, because they can. The extremists is just as crazy and intolerant with or without religion! It isnt religion thats the problem, its the people. Just to clarify one thing; Im not saying that religion is bad.

I belive more in philosophy than religion because it is more true to itself. It doesnt pretend to be anything else than human ideas and toughts. Tool seem to do a lot of thinking and for my part Tools greatest messages is: "question authority, think for yourself" and "Open your third eye". Both statements conveing the ideas that you shouldnt believe everything people tell you. These two statements are constantly beeing used in this message board :-)
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Old 09-04-2006, 11:18 PM   #19
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Re: Tool and the Occult

Tool has never had any sort of blatant occult influences in their work. If anything, its more about buddhism and kabbalah. Danny is into the occult, and thats good for him, thats his interest. They are not telling anyone to worship the devil or conjure forces from the dark. They tell people to be positive and at the same time say there is a dark side to life. They only speak the truth, with the good comes the bad.
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Old 09-05-2006, 05:12 AM   #20
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Re: Tool and the Occult

God and Devil, Good and Evil, Heat and Cold, if Iím correct, Cold is only the lack of Heat. Therefore, cold is another descriptive word for the Nothing. Cold does not exist, just the same, as Evil or the Devil does not exist. Youíre Evil, when you lack Goodness. The same goes for the Devil; youíre a Devil when you are not expressing characteristics of Godliness.

A good example of the concept: If a person, as he/she was walking through a large park, spotted in the bushes a child, at the age of twelve, being sexually molested; and continued walking by without a care, he/she would be considered Evil or a Devil, just because he/she did not express characteristics of Goodliness.

ďBut wait a minute soulongod, you canít say that Evil is just the lack of Goodness. What about an Evil action, such as the actually act of sexually abusing a minor?Ē said the childish Christian.

Now youíre just playing the blame game. Hmm, whom can we blame for this situation (the sexual abuse of a child)? We can blame the rapist for his/her inability to control oneís sexual urges. We can blame the child for being in the wrong place at the wrong time. We can blame the rapistís parents for not teaching him/her any better; we can blame the childís parents for the same reason. We can blame our employers, friends, politicians, neighbors, pedestrians, planets, nutritional level in our produce, the weather, the moon, genes, the condom that ripped, the alcohol, your weak liver, the color red, Nike commercials, the stores for only carrying large sizes, your pet for getting sick, the milk for spoiling, your mushrooms for lacking in potency, your mothers small nipples, your fathers small penis, the lack of hair on your private when your were in high school, the color yellow, your seventh grade English teacher, David Blaine, the catholic church, Hitler for not winning the war, Jesus for being an idiot, the Loony Toons, TOOLÖ

"Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law."
Aleister Crowley

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Old 09-05-2006, 06:49 AM   #21
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Re: Tool and the Occult

Quote:
Originally Posted by BigWeenie View Post
what a typical Christian just bash on everything you disagree with fuckin' homophobic racist asshole. Go vent in some stupid ass christian blog with the rest of your sheep. I think for the most part tool fans understand that they're artist not the new fuckin' jesus. so go worship a book.
I don't recall reading anything in the article that would implicate him as a racist. Everyone has their opinion, and the sooner you realize and accept that, the better.
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Old 09-05-2006, 07:29 AM   #22
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Re: Tool and the Occult

The point you are making about the stupidity of just following a 'way of life' based on some sort of ideology, without doing any thought of your own is obviously true. But I think you misunderstand the nature of most people's non-christianity... I would say that most of the people at a Tool concert who do not believe in Christianity at all do not have their beliefs because of Tool's music - and I'm talking about a lot of 15,16,17 year olds as well - or any other ideology, but have rather based their beliefs on their own logic.. asking questions about the possibility of a benevolent God in a world where there is more suffering than pleasure, seeking evidence for the existence of something before believing it exists, these types of questions.. and Tool's own non-Christianity simply COINCIDES with that of the audience's to a large degree (not all the audience of course, as you yourself would know, and while I am non-religious, in case you get the wrong idea, I do not consider one's religion or background or faith of being any significance in one's appreciation for and understanding of Tool)... However I will say that when real independent and reasoned thinking prevails, an intelligent human being should be naturally drawn to a healthy agnosticism/atheism. Just because most of the people at Tool concerts do not, as a whole conform to Christianity, does not necessarily mean Tool has had an overwhelming influence in this.. I think if you asked most PHD Oxford Philosophy graduates, there would be as many Non-Christians... and these are the people REALLY giving things some thought, ey! Don't know why I'm posting this, i hate religion arguments anyway because neither party seems to 'learn' anything from them

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Old 09-05-2006, 07:51 AM   #23
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Re: Tool and the Occult

dude, they are a band whose lyrics need to be about something. tool chose religion and spiritualism. apc was more personal stuff to maynard relating closer to christianity, the beatles chose mainly love and certain drugs, rage against the machine chose politics, plink floyd chose alienation and isolation...blah blah blah. whether you take a bands lyrics seriously or not is your own matter. if someone hears tools opiate and decides they hate god, so be it, if someone listens to dethklokís underwater album for fish and kill themselves so be it or marilyn manson or whatever. if someone chooses to take what some band is singing about straight to heart and uses that as their mantra for life then they are probably more than a little naive and need to start making decisions on their own. tool never said they were teachers, spiritual leaders or wise men who know the answer, nor should they shoulder the responsibility of such a position...they are a rock band! they are 4 dudes with instruments and vocals who sit or stand in a room and pool together ideas and thats all... no different than my band (probably except for the talent level in every respect) maynard once said that he'd like to express upon us some of the wisdom he's gained over the years but that doesnt mean people can decipher it correctly and it doesnt mean anything should be taken as gospel. Nor doesnít it mean anything he really has to say holds any water anyway. For some people they can relate and I feel as if im one of those, probably as well as most here, but that doesnít mean I live my life by what Maynard sings about, not even close. personally i dont know how anyone can take the bible as gospel either or anything for that matter, they are just stories written by secondary sources and translated and retranslated numerous times how can something not be distorted by doing so? ever heard of the game telephone? i agree with your whole "think for yourself and question all authority" deal but dont be afraid to point the finger at yourself my friend.
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Old 09-05-2006, 03:41 PM   #24
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Re: Tool and the Occult

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Originally Posted by martyrinexile86 View Post
I don't recall reading anything in the article that would implicate him as a racist. Everyone has their opinion, and the sooner you realize and accept that, the better.
HYPOCRITE

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Old 09-06-2006, 01:22 PM   #25
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Re: Tool and the Occult

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Originally Posted by TheJuiceOfSatan View Post
Tool has never had any sort of blatant occult influences in their work. If anything, its more about buddhism and kabbalah.
lol.
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Old 09-06-2006, 01:55 PM   #26
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Re: Tool and the Occult

Tool doesnt have a coherent philosophy, it seems to be a mesh of ideas to get people talking and thinking. Actually, i thought you would approve of Tools lyrics being a Christian most of the religion bashing seems to be about the mistreatment of religion like the televangalist type depicted in Opiate and the general emphasis seems to be getting people to think about ideas of a higher power and finding their own way to it; as it says in Right in Two "Repungent is a creature who would squander the ability to lift an eye to heaven conscious of our fleeting time here."

Yeah Tool are a rock band, thats all, but they are a rarity within this medium as they offer much more substance with much more eloquence than most. I think as long as the ideas are positive it does not matter where people find meaning. If Tool wrote books instead of music would people be going "Its only a book"? Books are accepted as life changing, rock music is looked down upon as inferior and adolescent, but one can have as much impact as the other in the right hands, its all a matter of perspective. I know the band have impacted on my life as they spurned an interest in science, religion and philosophy which seems unquenchable, I love reading about how other people see the world - I may not agree with alot of it but I love the diversity of peoples and ideas. I have Tool to thank for this as they bought a romantiscism to what seemed so boring in school and college. To have a commercially viable form of entainment that actually ecourages and manages to make people want to think and (shock! horror!) learn is such a rare thing these days especially as books sales gradually decrease. Yeah i finished my suck up fanboy rant now...oh wait you already stopped reading...
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Old 09-06-2006, 05:52 PM   #27
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Re: Tool and the Occult

The lyrics aren't a problem at all. They can say whatever they want to. I just think they should be careful where they guide vulnerable minds. I totally agree with a lot people who say that at least they are leading somewhere. Most musicians and artists of any kind don't bother.

But Tool singles out a flawed concept (mainstream/commercial christianity, which I agree is ripe for criticism) and says "this sucks, do ANYTHING but this" and *ignorant* minds follow to the extreme. To the occult, whatever.

As an aside, the occult does not necessarily mean Devil worship. I already stated this above. It has a specific meaning, and completely includes astrology as well as the Kabbalah--a form of Jewish mysticism. (Just a little research goes a long way.)

I want to know at what point the Artist assumes responsibility for his choices. I could just as easily ask the question of Marilyn Manson or even a band like Black Label Society. But to me Tool seems sincere to a greater degree.

Here: I'll cut to the point. I think lacing their musical dynamics and cover art and lyrics and website with occult/mystic references along with language that *some* people will mis-translate as anti-God (forget religion, just anti-God) for whatever reasons--simple shock value, increased sales, hype, who cares-- they are damaging *some* people in the very way that they SAY they want to change them--spiritually.

We're all gonna die eventually. If they believe in any type of God, it is my opinion that they may want to be more careful how they transmit their message. For some people it works well, others, not so well. Like I said above, click around this website for a while. You'll see who I'm talking about. I wouldn't want to be responsible for connecting the wrong people with the wrong ideas.

Maybe that sounds too preachy, like I'm judging too many people and too many things. If so, all I can say is that it comes from the best intentions, nothing more.
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Old 09-06-2006, 08:19 PM   #28
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Re: Tool and the Occult

In my opinion, most people who listen to Tool have already made their own decisions about what to believe or what not to believe...
...and personally, if you're that easily swayed by a rock band, then you should be taken advantage of. I think you place too much emphasis on what could happen rather than what is actually happening, which is people are talking and discussing issues that we wouldn't normally discuss in our free time. Issues of spirituality and mystical nature.
I think if people aren't exposed to the good bad and the ugly, you only have part of the picture, which will never lead you to any truth.
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Old 09-06-2006, 08:53 PM   #29
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Re: Tool and the Occult

Dumbfuck xian, There is no hope for you..
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Old 09-06-2006, 10:48 PM   #30
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Re: Tool and the Occult

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Originally Posted by ShiningOne View Post
As an aside, the occult does not necessarily mean Devil worship. I already stated this above. It has a specific meaning, and completely includes astrology as well as the Kabbalah--a form of Jewish mysticism. (Just a little research goes a long way.)
Indeed, one of the most interesting and enlightening books in this respect is http://www.amazon.com/Giordano-Bruno...e=UTF8&s=books. As a matter of fact, all the books of Frances Yates are very rewarding when one is looking for an alternative view of the occult that highlights the "good" aspects of it instead of the "evil".
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Old 09-07-2006, 03:28 AM   #31
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Re: Tool and the Occult

ShiningOne,

You have explained Tool's message well and your observations of young listener's interpretations of it are accurate. And of course, the young will always come up with silly misinterpretations of things. Yes, one who believes that Tool are always right will inevitably get caught in their silly jokes. But in the end, the problem you have with them is that they are not Christian. I know, I know, that is completely wrong, I haven't listened to anything you said.... please, hear me out.

You, as intellectually reasonable as you are, have not done what you think you have done. The moment you declared that you were a Christian, you stopped questioning Christ's authority. Now, convinced that you have found truth, you have come to a conclusion. And as a result, you feel that anyone who leads others away from that same conclusion (whether they intend to or not) is being irresponsible.

I am not saying there is nothing of merit in the Bible, but it is clearly not truth. That is to say, it is not all lies either, but rather that it is a book. Truth does not write its name on the pages of a book, for truth is nameless and always changing.

Tool is the name of a band. Four men who like to play music together. They are as emotional as you and me and it turns out, they are fairly nice blokes. They want a better world with less suffering just like we do. But they can't be held responsible for the actions of those who choose to listen to they're music. At some point the responsibility needs to be placed on the listener. In my interpretation, that too is part of they're message.
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Old 09-07-2006, 03:57 AM   #32
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Re: Tool and the Occult

Quote:
Originally Posted by ShiningOne View Post
The lyrics aren't a problem at all. They can say whatever they want to. I just think they should be careful where they guide vulnerable minds. I totally agree with a lot people who say that at least they are leading somewhere.
^CONTRADICTION^

Why do you really give a fuck, and whatís your SPECIFIC issue with the occult? Honestly. Good intention my ass, if you really gave a shit you would have sent all the band members a full report on your interpretation and concern of the message you believe they are sending out. Youíre coming off as a typical jackass Christian with your holier than thou attitude (hence your nickname). Believe in what you want; and, if this is your lame attempt of seeking an interpretation, from other Tool fans, of Toolís intention, youíre a dumb ass. If this is the case, then just ask specific questions about specific songs or their lyrics, which would probably be more productive and informative considering that Tool has changed during their careers; or maybe discuss exactly that, how they have changed.

P.S.
Get a sense of humor and donít forget how gullible you were when you were young. In addition, some will fall by the way side and youíre on that verge of being a lost cause.

Almost forgot, drop the vague and evasive bullshit and muster up some courage.

FOR CHRIST SAKES

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Old 09-07-2006, 04:02 AM   #33
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Re: Tool and the Occult

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Originally Posted by implandnoises View Post
At some point the responsibility needs to be placed on the listener.
BLAME GAME
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Old 09-07-2006, 08:34 AM   #34
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Re: Tool and the Occult

Ok responsibility is a much debated topic. shiningone I donít know how old you are but donít you think itís a bit silly to say tool should watch what they say? and why? because of the young impressionable youth that may listen to them and jump on the anti-god bandwagon (tool is not anti god btw as far as I can tell Maynard is still looking for solace and a reason to believe in god...) anyway tool is more against the organizations that preach god rather than god himself, although he isnít exactly thinking god is infallible thatís for sure. The only thing that I see them not liking at all in that respect is scientology. Anyway thatís not the point, what I'm saying is why should tool have to censor what they say? They are a rock band, and if you choose to listen to said rock band thatís your choice, if you choose to believe what they say, there again itís your choice. I think your biggest fear is that you donít want others to know about the alternative to Christianity or religion and thatís what tool offers up. The artist assumes all responsibility for their choices and what they say, but they canít be held responsible for other peopleís actions. Tool canít force anyone to do anything, they are not in a place of real power, they arenít politicians who tell us what to do or think. They are a band, a fairly popular one but certainly not one who is being played constantly to the point where they canít be ignored, so the fact that people may question their faith as a result of a song is their own deal. The biggest thing that tool offers is a critical thinking frame of mind. What do you believe? Why do you believe this? Why do you continue to believe this? What are you assuming? Are there other alternatives?
To me shining you have your faith and have not thought critically about it yourself and doing so may frighten you but that sort of thing frightens everyone. You have accepted Christianity and Christ for everything thatís been told to you. Why? Do you believe this because your parents raised you to do so? Take a step back and look around, you may find your ground is not the rock you thought it to be. Ever see the matrix? Neo lives in a world that he took as reality only to find that isnít really the case, only a facade. Ever seen memento? Because of his "condition" he has tricked himself into living within a world that isnít exactly truthful. I understand these are movies but they are also metaphors and damn good ones if you ask me. To quote timothy leary; "think for yourself and question authority" this includes religion, politicians, rock bands etcÖ
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Old 09-07-2006, 08:46 AM   #35
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Re: Tool and the Occult

AMEN
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Old 09-07-2006, 09:57 AM   #36
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Re: Tool and the Occult

Quote:
Originally Posted by ShiningOne View Post
The lyrics aren't a problem at all. They can say whatever they want to. I just think they should be careful where they guide vulnerable minds. I totally agree with a lot people who say that at least they are leading somewhere. Most musicians and artists of any kind don't bother.

But Tool singles out a flawed concept (mainstream/commercial christianity, which I agree is ripe for criticism) and says "this sucks, do ANYTHING but this" and *ignorant* minds follow to the extreme. To the occult, whatever.

As an aside, the occult does not necessarily mean Devil worship. I already stated this above. It has a specific meaning, and completely includes astrology as well as the Kabbalah--a form of Jewish mysticism. (Just a little research goes a long way.)

I want to know at what point the Artist assumes responsibility for his choices. I could just as easily ask the question of Marilyn Manson or even a band like Black Label Society. But to me Tool seems sincere to a greater degree.

Here: I'll cut to the point. I think lacing their musical dynamics and cover art and lyrics and website with occult/mystic references along with language that *some* people will mis-translate as anti-God (forget religion, just anti-God) for whatever reasons--simple shock value, increased sales, hype, who cares-- they are damaging *some* people in the very way that they SAY they want to change them--spiritually.

We're all gonna die eventually. If they believe in any type of God, it is my opinion that they may want to be more careful how they transmit their message. For some people it works well, others, not so well. Like I said above, click around this website for a while. You'll see who I'm talking about. I wouldn't want to be responsible for connecting the wrong people with the wrong ideas.

Maybe that sounds too preachy, like I'm judging too many people and too many things. If so, all I can say is that it comes from the best intentions, nothing more.
Yeah but to censor someones art in someway for the sake of a minority to dumb to understand its message in the correct way is just...well... disgusting. Im sorry to say this but as a Christian you will have a narrower view of the world than someone who is an agnostic so it may be hard for you to understand the value of being able to hold other ideas up to the light and examine them for what they are and take from them wisdom if it is there and discard it if there isnt. If someone takes it in the wrong way then its their fault not the artist, dumbing down to appease and subdue imaginary target audiences is something i cant stand. It makes things lack depth and substance like those endless crappy sitcoms on ABC.
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Old 09-07-2006, 01:22 PM   #37
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Re: Tool and the Occult

Well I have explored the occult before I even found Tool, and it was cool to find them exploring the same things. But they KNOW. They mock themselves all the time. The barbeque pictures, anyone?

"and if i'm the man then you're the man and he's the man as well"

And next time you listen to Eulogy, think of it as Maynard talking to himself. That's always a nice layered meaning I get a laugh out. Because it's spot on. Dualism isn't everything.
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Old 09-07-2006, 04:41 PM   #38
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Re: Tool and the Occult

again...I repeat...
Dumbfuck Xian, there is no hope for you..
Now go worship your 2000 year old dead palestinian God-jew..maybe drink some of his blood and chow down on some of his flesh while you reflect on tools lyrics!
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Old 09-07-2006, 06:37 PM   #39
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Re: Tool and the Occult

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Originally Posted by Laugh View Post
again...I repeat...
Dumbfuck Xian, there is no hope for you..
Now go worship your 2000 year old dead palestinian God-jew..maybe drink some of his blood and chow down on some of his flesh while you reflect on tools lyrics!

yea and you sound like a smartfuck non-xian..../end sarcasm
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Old 09-08-2006, 12:48 PM   #40
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Re: Tool and the Occult

Does occult relate to spiritual geometry? Thats the only philosophy I'v seen portrayed in their music and art.
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