i went to school with a guy called hugh gudgeon. he was tiny. i mean like 4 foot nothing. my mate rob picked him up an rested him on his head , an turned to us saying, "wear the gudge like a crown". life imitating art or what?
Fucker...I just spent the last 10 min. cleaning coffee off of my monitor!
LOL!!!!!!
__________________ stop trying to pull me out of my self indulgant pitifull hole
Plenty of people here have gone over the top translating, decifering, and explaning the many references and language uses of this beautiful song here. All have been rather insightful and generally precise. None, however, have really touched on the "Meaning of "The Grudge".
What IS "The Grudge" and WHO holds it?
Well, my friends, the grudge is anger and it is held by every man.
I'm not quite sure wheather this is Maynards own philosophy, or his direct description of some other teaching, but it goes like this. Much like yin & yan, man and woman exist in an infinite, opposing/equalizing relationship (2 forces juxtaposed). One part of being a male force is having a certain degree of paranoia. This paranoia is a unique ingredient that helps fuel a specifically male anger. Freud theorized that the relationship between a man and his mother, broke mans psychie in such a way that it made him hate every other man subconsciously.* Saturn was soo paranoid of his own sons that he ate them. In fact, it is true that male souls cary a resentment of being a provider in an existance which seems to have an everexpanding list of dependants. This resentment and distain fuels a distinct furnace of anger, or more importantly, violence. The grudge then, is the anger, male anger. "Holding" the grudge, is being violent. Every males anger is projected in the form of violence toward his world. Practicing non-violence, and subsequently redirecting and harnessing the emotional energy of anger, is the way you "let go" of the grudge. I'm talking about like, O.K. Ghandi, he was non-violent. Not you or me that has-always-been-a-nice-guy type of non-violent, the extreme shit. Like, "You cannot disagree with an enemy, even one who seeks to harm or kill you. To do so would be an act of violence upon his ideas."--Ghandi. So the grudge is anger, or more directly, the precipitous anger that materializes in the form of non-physical violence. Or in some cases(a sad amount imo) even outright physical violence. You see, even those of us males who would be labelled "sensetive" and "compassionate", are still permiating one form of non-physical violence or another...
Line-for-line:
1)Go on, exude your manlyness.
2)Plainly hypocritical. Pre-determine, that which was intended to be natural.
3)You wouldn't admit to it, but you are.
4)Did you younger peeps wiki 'scarlet letter':) ...adultery ...males angry at males.
5&6)It's much easier to BUILD upon this seemingly immovable object. Rather than trying to manipulate the object itself.
7&8)Self explainitory imagery.
9&10)"..."
10&11)Fear itself leads toward your greatest fear, embracing the anger on its terms.
12&13)Saturn ascends as the one and the ten, the one is the ten, the amnisic cycle, cold, uncompassionate, the ten does not exist, the one the ten, the one the ten, anger is not violence, anger is only anger, the one is the ten, their is no ten only one, there is no violence only anger...
...document your minds non-physical violence with excruciating criticism. Allow anger to encourage less violent thoughts. You'll be on your way to letting go. If you're outright violent ...for heavens sake go attack Maynard so he can rip your throat out already.
Peace.
*It may be a mistake to "sum-up" Freud in one sentance but wth.
__________________ stop trying to pull me out of my self indulgant pitifull hole
Last edited by benjamin; 02-15-2007 at 09:15 AM..
Reason: :nosae
Of course every work of art is open to interpretation. That's part of the fun.
Anyway, I realized shortly after writing the post that "scarlet lettermen" simply refers to anyone who has been branded by the church as a sinner. Remember Hawthorne's "The Scarlet Letter?"
"On the breast of her gown, in fine red cloth, surrounded with an elaborate embroidery and fantastic flourishes of gold thread, appeared the letter A."
scarlet letterman...
who writes in red? has anyone ever read the bible?
My interpretation of what "The Grudge" is about is that. Either Maynard himself or someone he knew had somthing tragic happen to them like someone murdering a loved one or (i.e. Child abuse) or just a grudge against a spirit. But the main point to this song is to let go of the grudge. You won't accomplish anything by trying to get revenge. The Saturn reference is the return of Saturn theory that if you have a clean, forgiving conscience than you will get "Picked up like a child"
Well this is MY INTERPRETATION of The Grudge to discuss farther or just to chat about TOOL
Why would you assume the Saturn references in this song are not referencing Maynard's alleged childhood abuses? "Saturn comes back around. Lifts you up like a child. Drags you down to consume you etc" It's an interesting depiction of Saturn devouring his children one by one, and I think Maynard plays on that (especially from the abused child's point of view) to illustrate where he's coming from so that he can then illustrate the depth of his forgiveness. The song infuses this with alchemical images of turning your anger into forgiveness as you would turn lead into gold and so on.
But the entire record seems to carry this theme (especially in light of the new record): "I was abused. You allowed it to happen. I can set it to the side for the sake of my Mother's last days with us. Can you?"
Is this too shallow of an interpretation? I think it's filled with complexities.
Why would you assume the Saturn references in this song are not referencing Maynard's alleged childhood abuses? "Saturn comes back around. Lifts you up like a child. Drags you down to consume you etc" It's an interesting depiction of Saturn devouring his children one by one, and I think Maynard plays on that (especially from the abused child's point of view) to illustrate where he's coming from so that he can then illustrate the depth of his forgiveness. The song infuses this with alchemical images of turning your anger into forgiveness as you would turn lead into gold and so on.
But the entire record seems to carry this theme (especially in light of the new record): "I was abused. You allowed it to happen. I can set it to the side for the sake of my Mother's last days with us. Can you?"
Is this too shallow of an interpretation? I think it's filled with complexities.
It's actually a pretty good interpretation. I think it definitely shows the depth of his forgiveness. However, I also find the point of this song to be very straight-forward. This song is about forgiving grudges all together, whether it be for god, country, or other people, the nature of the grudge is very negative and never produces anything positive.
"Give away the stone." This must be refering to the figurative weight you carry when holding the grudge. Give it away or you'll only sink deeper.
The first verse of this song is really enlightening. When you wear a grudge you hold like a crown, you're constantly calculating what you will and will not tolerate from whatever you're holding the grudge against. Thus, you're forcing yourself into a negative frame of mind.
"Justify denials." To me this is simply denying you are doing anything wrong by holding the grudge. For instance, denying how wrong it can be to be a real prick towards someone for a long time. It's like you feel entitled to being a prick because of the negative emotions you harbor towards them. Justifying the denial of being civil towards someone.
"Controllin'! Confinin'! Sinking! DEEPER!!" All the while you've been holding this grudge it's been controlling your life. You've become so ate up with it that it's confining the opportunities life has to offer you. Eventually, it can destroy everything around you.
These last lines are the advice underlying the whole song: "Consume you til you choose to let this go. Choose to let this go. Choose to let this go."
I think the very long scream in this song says a lot more than one might think. Notice that this scream is just a scream. He's not screaming a word. He just screams for about 25 seconds straight. Well, he just said that this grudge will consume you until you let it go. This scream is all about getting all that hatred and anger out of your system. It's the equivalent of going out into the woods and punching the shit out of a tree. After all that you hear him chanting what he's been saying all along, "Let go." over and over, louder and louder.
Quite simply this song is medication for someone holding an intense grudge.
An underlying meaning of Saturn speaks of structure, order, and taking responsibility for ones actions.
From an astrological view-point as well (I find astrology fascinating)... I agree with this statement...
All of these interpretations are interesting to say the least... but I particularly
like the post in this thread where the entire song is broken down with the authors personal thoughts...
I haven't really analyzed this song.. just read through the lyrics & listened... but I too think this song could be as simplistic as it's title... 'The Grudge' .. to hold a grudge and/or to be unwilling to give or admit : give or allow reluctantly or resentfully.
The only lyric in this song I still don't fully comprehend is the line, "Choose 1 or 10". From my perspective, it seems to mean that you have to make a choice as to whether or not to let the grudge fall away from you, or to still be obsessed and completely immersed in your vengeance and anger towards the person or thing that you're holding the grudge against. However, any additional ideas about this particular lyric would be helpful.
__________________ "Must be something I forgot down on Bullshit Avenue"- George Harrison
This song deals with alchemy (turning lead in to gold), "sinking deeper to find it" (sellf refelection), saturn ascends (30 cycle, mid life change), and letting go. It seems to deal with the mid-life cross-road of improving oneself by getting past beliefs and/or obstacles that you may not be ready to let go of. The "grudge" of deciding (1) whether to change for a different future (knowing that you know you should), or (2) staying on your current path which could lead possibly to decension.
I love you, you've helped me so much. you have no idea. I've been stuck on this song for so long. its like it has eaten away at all of my thoughts. this makes perfect sense to me. sure the simple take it as it is about grudges and how saturn (god) ate his kids and all seems like the answer but I see more truth in this than anything else I've seen on this song.
Every Tool song has its own meaning to every person that is why Tool is such a good band. YOu can sit down and fully elaborate any album by them and each person will come up with a different meaning and how it relates to them
Why would you assume the Saturn references in this song are not referencing Maynard's alleged childhood abuses? "Saturn comes back around. Lifts you up like a child. Drags you down to consume you etc" It's an interesting depiction of Saturn devouring his children one by one, and I think Maynard plays on that (especially from the abused child's point of view) to illustrate where he's coming from so that he can then illustrate the depth of his forgiveness. The song infuses this with alchemical images of turning your anger into forgiveness as you would turn lead into gold and so on.
But the entire record seems to carry this theme (especially in light of the new record): "I was abused. You allowed it to happen. I can set it to the side for the sake of my Mother's last days with us. Can you?"
Is this too shallow of an interpretation? I think it's filled with complexities.
this is in no way an attack on any persons interpretation. but how do we know that Manard suffered child abuse? maybe i missed something major here but ive never read anything or heard anything from his mouth or any of the other members of the band about this.
if this is just a supposition i think we should kind of stop talking about the child abuse if it is just speculation.
as i say im not having a go at anyone, just wondered about the childhood abuses.
This song deals with alchemy (turning lead in to gold), "sinking deeper to find it" (sellf refelection), saturn ascends (30 cycle, mid life change), and letting go. It seems to deal with the mid-life cross-road of improving oneself by getting past beliefs and/or obstacles that you may not be ready to let go of. The "grudge" of deciding (1) whether to change for a different future (knowing that you know you should), or (2) staying on your current path which could lead possibly to decension.
absolutely. it is multi-layered but this is the crux of the song.
the rest of the album deals with a sort of spiritual exploration - they are very vulnerable pieces in which transcendence is always the goal. the common tenant of every single hero story (which is always the story of transcendence) is the letting go of the ego - sacrificing what's important to YOU for something greater than you. Your ego, and all the beliefs, passions, and memories (here symbolized by an example: the grudge) are the stone that keeps you stuck to the ground. Thus this song is the necessary beginning.
Step 1. Let go.
Step 3. Transcend.
we waste our time here musing about the gap there, describing our reaction.
I think that the "grudge" is a reference to the animosity that institutions of organized religion hold for science, scientific method, scientific process/progress etc. In the early 17th century, the Catholic Church officially endorsed Ptolemy's model of the universe, which held that the earth was at the center of the universe and that all of creation revolved around the earth. The references to saturn could relate to galileo's observation that the planets had their own satellites, disproving Ptolemy's model, to the great shagrin of the church, which branded Galileo as a heretic. The church was forced to "choose one or ten" in that there could be one center of the universe (i.e. earth in Ptolemy's model) or 10 celestial bodies making up our solar system (the sun and the nine planets). Of course Galileo couldn't see all of the planets at the time, but the point is the same (additionally it was actually the discovery of Jupiter's moons that disproved the Ptolemic model--but minute historical details don't tarnish the song's meaning). Ptolemy's model had been acceptable because it left plenty of room outside of his proposed "shell" of darkness and stars for a heaven and hell. Also, moving the earth out of the center of the universe would lessen the apparent importance of earth in the universe and would not agree well with the Book of Genesis. Ultimately, of course, the church could no longer argue with the obvious truth, and the official model was changed. This is why the church was "humbled." Organized religions tend to stick to dogma, even when common sense is in conflict with that dogma, because being "humbled again" by scientific observation erodes the facade of divinity and perfection that protects the institution's power over its followers. The grudge held by the church is what prevents the true reconciliation of science and religion. This reconcilliation is referred to as "transmut[ing] this leaden grudge into gold." I think that the "scarlet lettermen" that the church is "unable to forgive" are probably the people like galileo who made observations that the church frowned on, but I'm not sure why and would be interested in hearing if anyone has an explanation for that.
Science can be dogma as well. Institutions use dogma to mask power, yes, but that does not mean that divinity and perfection are non-existent. Honestly, I am much more worried about those who claim that divinity and perfection don't exist anywhere when many religious/epistemological traditions claim they exist everywhere and in everything. The key is for one not to put limits, scientific, religious or otherwise, on possible truths.
Well this thread has been deeply enlightening, but it seems only one person has touched upon a theme in the song that means a lot to me personally. Instead of go over all of my interpretations, I'd just like to point out this one factor.
When someone is holding a grudge the thoughts and actions that result from it are negative and usually destructive. They are not necessarily physically destructive, but they will blind a person from seeing themselves and the truth.
"Justify denials" is a key phrase in this theme as is "Clutch it like a corner stone".
The individual(s) holding the grudge will find themselves constructing a network of lies that become the foundation of their existence and as a result are doomed to misery, constantly battling to support their prison and their home, because it has become all that they know. To allow this to fall is to forfeit your method of living. How will you determine right and wrong, true or false, if all the knowledge you depend on is proven wrong?
For this reason, the person is desperate to control their world. People simply do not like acknowledging the fact that we truly are not in control, that we are at the mercy of the universe, life, and luck, and tragedy can fly our way no matter how hard we try to avoid it. However it is the urge to control that makes us miserable, because it restricts us from seeing the real beauty of life and existence.
Thus, the answer everyone's looking for, how to obtain happiness, is to let go. Embrace the loss of the world you depend on, learn to accept and appreciate everything that comes your way.
By choosing one over ten, you are reborn- free of the grudge. The line "spits you out like a child" represents a re-birth, free of the boundaries and false justifications you created to deal with the grudge, able to question and think for yourself again.
I have been told that "10,000 Days" is roughly the time the mother of MJK was paralyzed and in poor health before passing away. Therefore it is plausible that there is no correlation between the Saturn Cycle described in the grudge, and the following album. I am not sure that "Lateralus" is as closely linked to "10k Days" as some hope to prove, but no question there is some material that seems to transcend both albums.
The only lyric in this song I still don't fully comprehend is the line, "Choose 1 or 10". From my perspective, it seems to mean that you have to make a choice as to whether or not to let the grudge fall away from you, or to still be obsessed and completely immersed in your vengeance and anger towards the person or thing that you're holding the grudge against. However, any additional ideas about this particular lyric would be helpful.
i do believe he's is more likely to be "flippin' the bird" kids!
also... 2012?
The pressure of Saturn and Pluto will change the belief system of the world in a way that people finally realize that we have been on the wrong track for thousands of years. People and especially governments will finally realize that bringing peace and welfare to the world is a better thing to do then fighting wars, polluting the environment and creating misery.
but then again, do you believe in the easter bunny?
