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Old 08-08-2003, 09:10 PM   #1
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I hope this doesn't piss Maynard off!

I have chosen to expose the true meaning of this song, what Maynard really intended. Why, you might ask? It could my own ego-trip, you know, for attention. Or it could be that I would like to let him know that some people do honestly "catch his drift." But mostly I would like the opportunity to show my appreciation for his courage and insight. And also I am sharing this in hope that others will find as much inspiration and solace as I did in the lyrics, as we all struggle healing our wounds. His words have always comforted me. They have always let me know that there was at least one other person out there experiencing a similar reality to my own. Well, here it goes...

I sincerely hope most of you reading this post have a decent background in some Freudian and Jungian psychological themes. If not, I will do my best to clarify everything.

According to Freud, here is how male development proceeds. Initially, in the first few years, the boy is extremely close to the mother. Son and mother enjoy the closest of relationships, their realities are very, very congruent. Then at some point the boy comes to the amazing discovery that he is a different sex than his mother! He penis is unveiled (cheers from the gallery)! Naturally, he wants to use it. The first candidate for penetration: mommy. The boy looks no further than his own home for his first lay. But then comes the most essential part of his development: castration by the father. The father is to step in, and say, "No, you cannot have your mother, she's mine!" The boy's dinky (yes, pun intended) masculinity then retreats into his unconscious. Hence we have the delightful stage when, "Ugh, girls are gross." Later on in the boy's development, his masculinity again becomes conscious. The feminine principle within himself is safely differentiated, he does not suffer from the infamous "Oedipus complex." . He does not go out and search for a mother surrogate (which sadly is what most guys do), but he can safely go out into the world and court women. He is a man.

Unfortunately due to the fact that there are not too many healthy marriages out there, a majority of the time the most important step does not occur, the father does not do his job. And now the boy is left to his mother. In a psychological sense, they are married. They are in love. She will begin to control every aspect of his life. He will have fantasies (sometimes very conscious fantasies) of copulating with his mother. The pair will be overly intimate, touching, kissing, hugging, cuddling. He never becomes detached from her. He is never allowed to truly develop an ego, an "I", that is separate from her. He can never become a man.

And now, the Jungian interpretation. First of all, our mother is not just our mother. She represents the Mother Archetype; that universal, eternal, Goddess that represents such qualites as security, comfort, tranquility, and unconsciousness; essentially, the womb in a symbolic sense. So a young boy's drive to have sex with his mother is really a spiritual drive. The young boy wishes to return to a state of tranquility, to a state of complete absorption. He wants to lose himself in her, to give himself up and bathe again in her rich, warm waters. And so his personal mother begins to be completely identified with the Great Mother. The boy will project this archetype (which by the way, only truly exists in his psyche) onto his mother.

According to Jung, a man experiences God and relates to God through the feminine. His soul-image is feminine, she is called his Anima. In the beginning of a boy's life, his anima is identical with the mother. And that is where we see the Oedipus Complex come in to play. The boy does not really want to physically have sex with his mother. He is merely relating to God through the only feminine being he knows: his mom. But if he is properly developed, his anima begins to differentiate from the mother. They are both feminine, but they embody different aspects of the feminine principle. This differentiation of the feminine principle is essential for a male's ego development.

In mythology, there is the symbol of the Ouroboros, the serpent which eats its own tail. It represents unconsciousness, it represents the Great Mother, the feminine motherly aspect of God. We are all familiar with the ancient mythological motif of the knight who battles the dragon to rescue the damsel in distress and then the treasure. Well, symbolically the dragon is the Great Mother, which the knight must slay to rescue his anima, his damsel in distress. This rescue is symbolic of the feminine differentiation discussed above. Then the knight may possess the treasure (enlightenment, salvation, the philosopher's stone).
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Old 08-08-2003, 09:11 PM   #2
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I hope this doesn't piss Maynard off, pt. 2!

And now, an interpretation of the text:

1.) "I will choke until I swallow..." What could he be choking on? The placental fluid? Maynard is fighting against his Oedipal tendencies, he his choking. And he will continue choking until he realizes the situation at hand.

2.) "Choke this infant here before me." Again, another allusion to the womb. Symbolically, he is in the womb, as an infant, and choking. In many ways he has remained an infant. Though he may have physically matured, he has not psychologically matured.

3.) "What is this but my reflection?" All these events are an inner phenomenon. The physical world is acting as a reflection. He is not dealing with his personal mother anymore. He is dealing with his psyche, his psychological reality.

4.) "Who am I to judge or strike you down?" Many times, as a male struggles with these issues he will lash out at his personal mother. He will punish her. He will yell, he will strike her down. But keep in mind, he is only projecting the Mother Archetype onto his personal mother. It is essential that he come to the realization that these thing in all truth have nothing to do with his personal mother. He must take responsibility for what has gone on within himself. He will never solve anything if he continues to blame his personal mother.

5.) "But you're pushing me and shoving me. You still love me and push it on me." He struggles with his projection. She seems to love him, but she pushes her love upon him. She pushes herself, emotionally, physically and spiritually upon him.

6.) "Rest your trigger on my finger." This is where he directly refers to the Oedipus complex. What is a woman's trigger? Her clit. He has having fantasies. He wants her. She wants him.

7.) "Bang my head upon your fault line." This one should be obvious by now. One time I explained this song to my drum instructor, who is from LA, and has visited the San Andreas fault line, he said, "Yep, it does look like a big ole vagina."

8.) "Take care not to make me enter. 'Cause if I do we both may disappear." If his Oedipal Complex is allowed full reign, his ego will vanish. His consciousness will be lost. I used to have terrifying, paralyzing dreams about this when I was a kid. With a severe Oedipal complex, a boy's masculinity does not just come into question, his entire existence comes into question.

9.) "Slipping back into that gap again." He wants an ego, he wants to be a man. But mommy is too tempting. He begins to backslide. He wants to feel her secure and comforting embrace. He wants to jump into her big, symbolic vagina, "the gap."

10.) "I'm alive when you're touching me," As much as he doesn't want it, mommy still makes him feel ecstatic, euphoric, alive.

11.) "Alive when you're shoving me down." But underneath his Oedipal desire, he knows he wants something else, something more. He knows in the end, she will only bring him down.

12.) "But I'd trade it all, for just a little, piece of mind." A wonderful play on words here. A piece of mind is an ego, a psychological reality that belongs to him, that has nothing to do with his mom. He would trade all his mom can offer him, to become a man. A deliberate disconnection.

13.) "Put me somewhere I don't wanna be. Seeing someplace I don't want to see. Never wanna see that place again." He has nearly entered the gap. This line in the song completely sums up my thoughts about the dreams I used to have. But Maynard now makes a resolution. This is the first time in the song he has behaved like a man. He makes a decision that he will stick to.

14.) "Saw that gap again today as you were begging me to stay." He is again tempted. His mother begs him to stay. We can see this literally in a mother's struggle when her son wishes to leave the home.

15.) "Managed to push myself away, and you as well." He has stuck to his resolution. He will not again fall into the gap. But when he refuses to enter, he pushes his mother away as well.

16.) "If, when I say I may fade like a sigh if I stay," He knows that if he doesn't deal with his Oedipal complex, he will never amount to anything, he will never become a man, he will simply fade away.

17.) "You minimize my movements anyway," He cannot talk his way out of this. She will only continue to seduce him. He alludes to the concept of movement here. Movement is a quality indicative of masculinity. She will coninue to damper his budding masculinity.

18.) "I must persuade you another way." The time for words is over, it is now the time for action. Here begins a symbolic battle. He must fight the dragon.

19.) "There is no love in fear." This is his battle cry. The threat of castration, the threat of losing his ego, there is no love there, that is only fear.

20.) "Staring down the hole again. Hands upon my back again" Here again is another allusion to the vagina. He feels defenseless, like he always has. He must overcome. He must cut loose the binds that tie him.

21.) "Survival is my only friend. Terrified of what may come." Anyone who has had similar experiences as the ones depicted in these lyrics will know the exquisite terror and relief and wonder when one has freed one's self from the choking grip of the Great Mother. There is no one there to help him. He is alone, finally, alone.

22.) "Just remember I will always love you," He will never stop loving his mother, the personal one and the archetypal one. In fact, everything he is doing is out of love.

23.) "Even as I claw your fucking throat away." Here is a direct allusion to the slaying of the dragon, the Ouroboros.

24.) "It will end no other way." There are no pills to take here. No Prozac can save you. Nothing will solve this for him but the slaying of the dragon. He must say goodbye to mommy.

You see, only now can he really develop a relationship with his Anima. The Great Mother has been slain, now Maynard may experience the feminine in different ways. His Anima will bring him closer and closer to the unconscious, to God. She will help him, "Pry open his Third Eye." But you see, everything moves in circles. The Ouroboros is a closed system. So, paradoxically, slaying the dragon is the only way to really have sex with your mother. Get it?

Now I am going to go into my backyard, slip Salival into my CD player, look up at the cosmos and go on a warrior's journey with Maynard. God bless these four guys as they again bring a myth alive. Their music has truly been a light for me, leading me into the darkness, guiding me towards unconsciousness, and again, into the light.
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Old 08-08-2003, 09:33 PM   #3
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very interesting interpretation _ but i have to disagree.

as for the ouroboros , the serpent that bites its own tail : i have allways understood as the belief that matter is in a constant cycle of destruction and creation . i may be wrong .. but i think im right.
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Old 08-08-2003, 09:48 PM   #4
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Yeah, I like the thought you put into it. I don't whole heartedly agree, either. That's not to say that you're wrong. That's to say that I'm still digesting my own thoughts on the matter. I may, after a time, find myself coming to the same conclusion. Or I may not. I'd been reading a smidge of Jung lately. Not really even scratching the surface in terms of understanding the big picture he tries to paint.

It is good food for thought though, eh? You almost want to grin and slap Maynard on the back of that bald head of his and say, "What were ya thinkin?" and then slipping quickly back to avoid that Judo grab, hip-throw he's about to lay down on your ass.

But seriously, thanks for spending the time to write the stuff down.

-Tant
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Old 08-09-2003, 08:25 AM   #5
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Maynard had said about Aenima, that he was influenced by many many things. I always related to Pushit as it being about a story of a man becoming a prisoner of war after a battle. I dont know. I think your mother fucking idea is a bit off though.
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Old 08-10-2003, 06:21 AM   #6
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I am certainly not here to try and convince anyone that my interpretation is correct. I have already decided that for myself. I understand that the Oedipal drama is a difficult one to swallow. Let me clear something up: when I refer to Maynard and his mother, we are talking about a symbolic drama. We talking about an inner phenomenon that occurs within his psyche. I believe some of you may be confused as are many other people about this subject. In fact, this is exactly why Jung split with Freud.

You see, Freud took the Oedipal fantasies only as literal, physical desire. Jung saw it much differently, in a more spiritual light. Jung did not deny the existence of the fantasies. But he felt the fantasies were merely the way the psyche was communicating to the ego certain psychological truths. Another example: along with the Oedidpal complex, Freud saw that every young boy represses a desire to kill his father. Looked at in a symbolic manner, we see that a desire to kill the father is ultimately a desire to free one's self from the collective and standard values of the time. Only through killing the father can we truly, "Push the envelope." I am sure some of you are familiar with Star Wars (which by the way is largely based upon Jungian ideas). What happens at the end? Luke must battle his father for a new order to be established.

Also, what about the function of myth? In ancient Greece, they had a plethora of myths and legends. Why did these things hold such importance to these people? Because back then, as far as I know, there were no Jungian analysts in practice. The myths allowed for the expression of certain universal thruths that were contained in everyone's psyche. Why was the myth of Oedipus told? For entertainment? I don't think so. It was so a young Greek man could consciously integrate his fantasies and desires and drives in a healthy manner, that is without going fucking nuts and killing his mother and then himself. What we call archetypes now, were the Gods in ancient times. They function in the same way.

Of course another reason why some of you may reject my interpretation is because you have repressed Oedipal desires yourself. No? Well, I am sorry to say, but everyone has them, so, 'fess up!

By the way, the Ouroboros can be looked at in many, many different ways. Every thing in our world works in cycles so essentially it can be representative of every process known to man, life-death-rebirth being the ultimate one.

It is quite obvious that Maynard was inspired by many a thing as he helped create the masterpiece known as Aenima. But over above everything it seems it is largely based upon Jungian psychology. Come on, they named the album after a Jungian archetype for Christ's sake!
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Old 08-10-2003, 07:54 PM   #7
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i dismissed your application to the song . not jungian theory .
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Old 08-15-2003, 04:12 PM   #8
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Damn, I always thought of push it as the story of an abusive relationship, never with maynard's mother though. In the end I think of him breaking away from this relationship by means of violence, and generally becoming free. I guess my opion roughly follows yours, which makes a lot of sense.
I never consiously wanted to fuck my mother though...
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Old 08-16-2003, 02:46 PM   #9
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Make it conscious. But be fully prepared to disappear.
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Old 08-17-2003, 01:01 AM   #10
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Since it's four in the morning, I don't exactly wish to begin a lengthy discourse, but I will say that I feel your interpretation is fairly far-fetched and inaccurate. Of course everyone is entitled to their own opinions, but you seem to feel that this is the only possible meaning that could have been intended by Maynard; that anything else would be ridiculous. This, in my opinion, is ridiculous (and I do have a good grasp of both Jungian and Freudian psychology. You're right, the album draws heavily in some areas on Jungian psychology, i.e. "46 & 2," but I don't think this song is one of them).
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Old 08-17-2003, 07:50 AM   #11
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I feel strongly about my interpretation, and I can say with somewhat certainty that I believe it is correct. I do not think I ever gave the impression that any other interpretation would be ridiculous, only that I wouldn't believe it.

So, Looque, why don't you take the time and effort to explain why you disbelieve my interpretation to be correct. That is why I began this thread. But as you can notice, everyone can knock my view, but yet nobody gives an interpretation of their own (save Zole). Ya' never know, I may change my mind if I encounter something that makes more sense. Never say never.
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Old 08-17-2003, 10:36 AM   #12
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Re: I hope this doesn't piss Maynard off!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zole
Damn, I always thought of push it as the story of an abusive relationship, never with maynard's mother though. In the end I think of him breaking away from this relationship by means of violence, and generally becoming free. I guess my opion roughly follows yours, which makes a lot of sense.
I never consiously wanted to fuck my mother though...
I will agree with you, because that is always what I thought it was about. But I guess I'm wrong, and I will admit it because I don't want everyone to jump all over me about it. But yes, I thought it was about an abusive relationship, and that is what most of the lyrics imply to me.
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Old 08-17-2003, 05:06 PM   #13
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Wow

I always thought that this song was mjk talking about how he (or anyone) changed over time. Through out the whole song he uses references towards two people one acting as the other seems to shy away; yet both have some connection. Then at the end of the song he convinces himself that change is the only way to respond to the cycles of life-----------
"Remember i will always love you..."
"...tear your throat away... there is no other way"
I think you might get my view by now, but hey props on the mom-
I-really-want-to-fuck-you-but-maybe-later-I-need-to-becme-a-man-stuff; that was crazy and I only pray for it NOT to be true but i think it was a worth while opinion.

peace--------------and Goodbye
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Old 08-17-2003, 06:38 PM   #14
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I believe it to be very easy to glean a general interpretation of this tune. It is about a relationship he has with someone/something that is unhealthy and must be dealt with. And to "Restrain Yourself", I think you very correct in your thoughts. It seems there is this complete duality in his nature. First, you have the little boy complex, or puer aeuternus complex who seems to be battling with the Man. You have the boy, who exists only in relation to the mother; a complex designed to relate to the unconscious. Then you have the Man, who exists in only in relation to himself; a complex designed to relate to the Self, or God-image.

Not to be cliche, but in the song jimmy Maynard is releasing the inner child. He is opening up communication to the experiences of his past, the experiences that have shaped who he is today. But you see, jimmy is only an introduction to something. It is only the entry point. That is why the tune ends with the line, "I am heading back home." The song does not address what is dealt with when he has returned home. And this is exactly how "Pushit" begins.

Pushit is a song about ego-development. It is of the utmost importance that every male develop a healthy, functioning ego. The male consciousness must be freed from the confines of the Great Mother, and she ultimately represents unconsciousness in general. Because of these experiences Maynard had as a child, he hadn't fully developed a healthy, free ego.
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Old 08-17-2003, 07:28 PM   #15
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reply to above

Well honestly i might think the same if a had a better background a Freud and his- lets say different- theories. But lets point out that Freud had only theories, not facts; and in saying that anything that you state about Freud and his teachings are hereto theories. I am not talking about your opinion on the song, that everyone knows is just theory, in this case you use a theory to back up a hypothesis... DONT get me wrong, I for one (and you make two) think this idea has a high degree of plausability; but finding an under-lying theme in a Tool song with nothing save a theory is pretty hard to manage...or is it??????

peace-----------and Goodbye
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Old 08-22-2003, 06:13 PM   #16
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pfft...freud

saying freud was RIGHT is like saying hitler was RIGHT...they were both as crazy as each other

pseudo-philosophers love him cause he is so easy to quote : "everything is mother or father "...lol

i think this song is about Hitler and his plan to annihalate jews cause he says " tear your fucking throat away" or something.

this is great

Brendon

By the way im not saying you're wrong , iits a really very intersting idea to put forward, but, man, if i said pushit was about the god damn teletubbies on extasy, i could tell you lines from the song to illustrate it...right?
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Old 08-23-2003, 01:58 PM   #17
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When I read my original post, I don't see too much of a Freudian interpretation of the song. I used a Freudian framework (as did Jung many times in his work) to establish a more spiritual, universal, interpretation--one that was more towards love, and growth and evolution and development. I expected my post to turn heads. Because I generally know what type of crowd listens to TOOL (or at last the portion of the crowd that posts on a TOOL-oriented forum): feminine, intellectual males. Males who imagine themselves as some groundbreaking thinkers who are pushing the envelope at every turn. When in all reality, they are pussies who use their intellectuality as a substitute for life and progress and power. You know how I know? Because I am one of them and I see others just like me all around. Males who haven't yet exited the womb, guys who trade mommy for drugs and a girlfriend. It's all the same shit. We are all in hiding. Look at us, hunched over our computer screens, posting 24 hours a day. Creating dialogues that go nowhere, and really, really, bad narcissistic negative poetry. The movie "Fight Club" was made for us. Tyler says, "We are a generation of men raised by women. I am beginning to think that another woman is not what we need." Oh shit, Megan just called--better call her back immediately, my sanity depends on it! He also says: "Our fathers are supposed to be models for God. God has abandoned us. Maybe we need to accept the fact that we are God's unwanted children." "We didn't live through the Great Depression or a war. Our war is a spiritual war, our depression is our lives."

And I am sorry to say, but we are losing that war. A friend of mine has even said that it has already been lost. But I remain hopeful. We need something big, something powerful to happen. There is too much momentum towards spiritual death to change the tide on a personal level. That is what Maynard is praying for in "Aenima." I know he doesn't want people to get hurt or die. He is praying for something big, to transform our consciousness in one big fucking blow. I hope to God it happens. For the sake of our children and the life of this beautiful planet.

You can deny the validity of Freud if you want, or psychology in general, maybe that's not your bent. But you have to be honest with yourself and look to see if your denial of Freud is a hidden denial of yourself, of your wholeness.

If I have realized anything in my life it is that I have been in
hiding the whole time, from myself and everyone else. I have lived in fear of my own power and my own beingness. Chosen pain over love, chaos over order, death over life. I have been scared "to be." I'll stick my nose is some fucking book, or my dick in a snatch. Or I'll smoke a joint or take a hit of acid and call it "expanding my mind." Or I can listen to TOOL, for some of us, the biggest drug of all. But there is hope. There is truth out there. I have found that you have to dig and dig. And what works for me, may or may not work for anyone else.

Jung called the path of wholeness the "process of individuation." And he said that what from our point of view appears as becoming a truly unique individual, is incarnation from God's point of view.
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Old 08-26-2003, 04:16 PM   #18
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ok

ok that was pretty deep
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Old 09-10-2003, 07:51 PM   #19
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Ok, after reading this behemoth of a post, i have several things i wish to comment on.

The draw between copulation and a mother is extremely interesting, and it makes very much sense, but maybe not particularly for this song.

I personally think males do not go and find a mate of the opposite sex because they want a version of their mother, but because humans are extremely emotionally-unstable beings. That is why we turn to religion, it is our teddy bear, our bigger, more powerful entity that is watching over us, something we wish, and hope is going to watch over us and protect us, when really, in my opinion, their isn't. I don't believe in or a god, I just personally believe that humans have trouble surviving without a belief that we are not alone, and that their is always something to protect us, when we are really on our own, and the only way for us to make it through this journey that is life, is to lie to ourselves, to comfort ourselves, and say that it is all ok, God, or a god is protecting us.
Now, as for copulation and marrige, humans are emotioanlly unstable beings, and it is very difficult for us to make it though this tremendous journey we call life alone, that is why we marry, to have a companion, to help us, to know that we are not always on our own. And that, will make life all the more easier, for most people.
Now, sooner our later, and I can guarantee this, someone will come along with no sexual preference, and this person believe it or not, will be our stepping stone into the next evolutionary pattern. Why? Because this entity/person, will not be binded to their instincts. They will feel that they do not have to copulate, for we cannot truly evolve until we break apart from our instincts, and become one with ourselves, and not our animal insticnts. This may seem a little much a first, coming from a fifteen-year old, but put it into prospective, and it will make sense.

With that said, I have another thing to comment on. You say that people who listen to tool our these pussies who think they are groundbreaking thinkers, and it is true beacause we are slouched in front of our computers, posting. What the shit?? Not true what so ever. I, of course am a tool fan, and a male, and I don not think of myself as a ground breaking thinker, and I am, not a pussy who uses my intellectuality as a substitute for life and progress and power. I have ambitions, I have strengths, I have weaknesses, I feel tool is an outlet to the mess that the world is in now, I feel inspired by them, I feel connected, I have the urge to do more with my thoughts and feelings, something grand, something I am still searching for, and I do not post on this website beacuse I am afraid of what is out there, it is because people on these opinion pages are very intelligent people, and have very intelligent things to say. It would be a shame to ignore it and put all those thoughts to waste just because somebody feels that doing so, is being a pussy and is afraid of what is out there.

With that said, I think I am finished. Oh yes, good luck trying to find anything in the cosmos with all the damn light pollution, oh yea, and have fun playing drums to this song, it takes a little work memorizing it and knowing when to come in towards the end, but in the long run, it's not that hard.
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Old 09-12-2003, 09:34 AM   #20
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A quarter of the truth (for Wolf)

We are:

25% Heterosexual
25% Homosexual
25% Both
25% Neither

So, that person that you are looking for, the asexual being who will catalyze our evolution--he's you!
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Old 09-12-2003, 06:01 PM   #21
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Re: A quarter of the truth (for Wolf)

Quote:
Originally Posted by JTCrace
We are:

25% Heterosexual
25% Homosexual
25% Both
25% Neither

So, that person that you are looking for, the asexual being who will catalyze our evolution--he's you!
Several things in that statement confuse me. But to clear something up, i'm straight dude, i have a sexual preference, women.
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Old 09-13-2003, 05:52 PM   #22
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Let me start out by saying that I believe the first two posts on this thread are true. Also, I don't think that this would piss Maynard off because you are merely posting what this means to you, and that is what the Opinion section is all about.

Now, let me just say that I have had thoughts of screwing my mom before. I quickly dismissed these thoughts however, trying to convince myself that that sort of thing is unnatural and disgusting. For a while, it was a struggle because thoughts came without warning, and without consent, I didn't like it. And as I tried to continue pushing it away, it kept pushing itself upon me. It was only when I got a g/f and she helped me start to become my own person, and I developed more and more that I broke free of these bonds.

I know that some guys won't have these thoughts consciously, but I think that it is there for every male.

I am a human, and I do believe that I am unstable, I don't think that I could make it through this tedious life alone. I think that everybody is a pussy really because they can't live without something, we are all so dependant on something else. As far as God goes, believe what you will, I believe that there is a God. An intelligent designer. I am not here to convince you of that, and I don't want you to try to convince me otherwise. That is why there is freedom of choice. So choose not to bicker pointlessly about shit. This site is to inform others of YOUR opinions, not to bring the other peoples opinions to their knees. It is called constructive critisiscm. Throw your opinion out there, and perhaps JTCrace will find it to be true, maybe not. Personally, I think he's right. Of course you can disregard everything that I have said, but try and be constructive instead of destructive. You will become more knowledgeable and intelligent, I promise. Open your third eye for crying out loud. Anyway, I think that I've said enough.

'Prying open your third eye. This body reminds me that I am not alone.'
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Old 09-14-2003, 12:01 AM   #23
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To Wolf; and then To Luna

Wolf:

As this universe was created, it unfolded as a mirrored duality. This is symbolized through the Yin-Yang. So when you look at something that seems so simple, such as sexuality, you can't just look at one aspect if you want to evolve. Since sexuality is something contained within this universe, and as are we, then there must be four aspects of it. Hence, heterosexuality, homosexuality, both, and neither. Another one is "As above, so below," "As below, so above," "Agreement," and "Disagreement." (Check out my article titled "Setting the table with Saag Paneer" in the Letter section) Also, being homosexual does not mean you have to go out and fuck someone of the same sex. It just means you acknowledge yet another part of yourself. Also, maybe for you religion has something to do with emotions, or their instability. But for me religion only means one thing: becoming and being whole.

Luna:

It takes "balls" to confront those desires of yours. But let me ask you one thing: how exactly did your girlfriend help you get over this shit? And, God as an intelligent designer? I think whoever created this fucked up universe must have been a very imbalanced individual. In fact, Gnostics call him the Demiurgos, the creator Half-God. A god who think he's God, but is really just some asshole on a fucking ego-trip, but I do love him just the same. So where exactly did this creator god, Demiurgos, come from? It seems Christ held the answer to that one.
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Old 09-14-2003, 12:20 AM   #24
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Re: To Wolf; and then To Luna

Quote:
Originally Posted by JTCrace
Wolf:

As this universe was created, it unfolded as a mirrored duality. This is symbolized through the Yin-Yang. So when you look at something that seems so simple, such as sexuality, you can't just look at one aspect if you want to evolve. Since sexuality is something contained within this universe, and as are we, then there must be four aspects of it. Hence, heterosexuality, homosexuality, both, and neither. Another one is "As above, so below," "As below, so above," "Agreement," and "Disagreement." (Check out my article titled "Setting the table with Saag Paneer" in the Letter section) Also, being homosexual does not mean you have to go out and fuck someone of the same sex. It just means you acknowledge yet another part of yourself. Also, maybe for you religion has something to do with emotions, or their instability. But for me religion only means one thing: becoming and being whole.

Luna:

It takes "balls" to confront those desires of yours. But let me ask you one thing: how exactly did your girlfriend help you get over this shit? And, God as an intelligent designer? I think whoever created this fucked up universe must have been a very imbalanced individual. In fact, Gnostics call him the Demiurgos, the creator Half-God. A god who think he's God, but is really just some asshole on a fucking ego-trip, but I do love him just the same. So where exactly did this creator god, Demiurgos, come from? It seems Christ held the answer to that one.

As far as desires, she helped me in a specific way. I think that there is someone for everyone. The person that makes you gaga for no reason, just makes you stupid almost. It is love I believe. That is what happened. By meeting her and then falling in love with her, it broke my bonds. By accepting my love, no matter how stupid I probably acted let me focus my love and desires toward her. She set me free.
As far as God goes, I don't know how he got there, always was there according to the Bible. And as far as the Bible's legitamacy goes, the proveable things in it have been proven to be true. Some things just need faith to be believed.
Now, I don't think that he is a fucked up asshole. He created us perfect, and then he gave us choice. We ate of the fruit. We screwed ourselves over. But that was the only way for us to love him. If he didn't give us choice and allow us to know the difference of good and evil, then we would be forced to love him. That is not love. Anyway, then there was the crucifiction, which allows us to be forgiven of our sins if we ask. Of course he doesn't want you to be lukewarm. Either hate him or love him. You choose.
Anyway, feel free to make any comments, that goes for anyone.

Let me just say though, I can attest to JTCrace's statements in the first two postings. My mom feels that our family is falling apart due to the fact that everyone of the kids has left home pretty much. I guess that I ripped her fucking throat away. But my desires would have intensified I'm sure if it didn't end. It could have ended no other way.
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Old 09-14-2003, 07:40 PM   #25
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You lying sack of ****

Luna, here are some things to think about:

In Genesis God to lied to Adam and Eve. He told them they would die if they ate the fruit. They ate the fruit yet they continued living. You might say, "God did not kill them because he had mercy on them." Maybe, just maybe, he knew he couldn't really kill them. Nope, those apple-eatin' sonsabitches would just be reborn and do it all over again. He cast them out of the Garden and marked it with a star and aliens, ooops, no, he marked with a flaming sword that turns every which way and Cheribums, secretly hoping Adam and Eve would never find their way back, knowing if they did, his laws would no longer bind them.

Hebrews 10:1 "Since the law has only a shadow of the good things to come and not the true form of these realities, it can never, by the same sacrifices that are continually offerd year after year, make perfect those who approach."

Romans 6:14 "For sin will have no dominion over you, since you are not under law but under grace."

Galatians 2:19 "For through the law I died to law, so that I might live to God."

1 Corinthians 6:12 "All things are lawful for me," but not all things are beneficial. "All things are lawful for me," but I will not be dominated by anything.

1Corinthians 10:23 "All things are lawful," but not all things build up.

1 John 3:4 "Everyne who commits sin is guilty of lawlessness; sin is lawlessness."

Romans 7:6 "But now we are discharged from the law, dead to that which held us captive, so that we are slaves not under the old written code but in the new life of the spirit."

So, I think it may be necessary for you, Luna, to designate which God you are talking about. The real one or that false, lying sack of ****.
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Old 09-14-2003, 09:19 PM   #26
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I suppose you'll have to tell me who you think is the real one and you think is the lying sack of **** for me to answer.

God banished Adam and Eve because they sinned. And they would have lived forever if they hadn't sinned. But they ate the fruit and died, he didn't say right away. He said they would die and they did, eventually. Anyway, I have a relationship with Jesus because he is the way the truth and the life, and no one shall get to the father except through him. I believe in the Trinity of the Father, Son, and the Holy Spirit that make up one God. I hope that answers your questions, but if not feel free to ask away.

Another part of having a relationship is faith. Faith is necessary for it too work. Not all things can be explained. In science they can't prove things like the Big Bang because we don't have the math to prove how something can come from absolutely nothing. Faith needs to be put into it. God is not sadistic or stupid. Nothing is contradictory. You just need the right Bible.
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Old 09-14-2003, 09:25 PM   #27
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Tell me what Bible you got those "quotes" from. If they are from the right one, then I'll believe you. Some bibles today are pure shit. Cross reference and they show up as saying that God is satan and that Jesus sinned, and so on, so if you tell me the Bible, and it is the right one, then I'll believe you.

Try the King James Authorized Version, not copyrighted. Yes, you can't find that in stores anymore. You'll have to go find it via internet. I recommend Cambridge as the place to go. Anyway, yes, I await any comments, questions, hate mail, what have you. I don't care. Send whatever.
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Old 09-15-2003, 04:18 PM   #28
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Avoiding the question

Well, by using the translation excuse you have completely avoided any sort of real discussion. By the way, amongst Bible scholars the King James version is defintely not the best translation, it has been shown to be quite inaccurate at times. Come on, the reason King James decided to rewrite the bible was for purely political reasons. And it was a translation done hundreds of years ago. I got those quotes from the New Revised Standard edition which has these wonderful notations at the bottom of each page to let you know how different words can be used in Hebrew and Greek, so any inaccuracy is saved by the notations.

In Genesis God lied and the serpent was honest and truthful. God could not kill the primal couple because they were actually more powerful than him. No they didn't die, their bodies did, their spirits are immortal.

Those quotes show the obvious dichotomy inherent in the New Testament. There is a clear distinction between the God of the Old Testament, Yahweh, Elohim, El Shaddai, and the God of the New Testament, a God which is beyond the law, the Father. These quotes clearly delineate the division. As long as you keep Christ an external image you will remain in a condition of: non-confront, denial, ignorance, misery, insanity, and all sorts of other afflictions created by this wonderful God of yours. FUCK YOUR GOD. I am so sick of hearing this mindless fucking recording: "Jesus died for our sins. The only way to salvation is through him." The only person that can pay for your sins is YOU! So why don't you take some responsibility and become accountable for your actions instead of putting it on the shoulders of some statue. Believe me, if Christianity was so effective I sincerely think that after two thousand years we would see a little less violence, and hate, and darkness.
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Old 09-15-2003, 08:52 PM   #29
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Well hey, I'm not telling you to believe what I say, I believe what I believe, and you believe what you believe. I would like to see those inconsistecies that you spoke of however. Anyway, my intention was not to avoid the question in any way. But that is ok, I don't really care. Like I said before, you believe what you want and I'll do the same because I believe in freedom of choice.

P.S. the scholars of today are screwed, I don't believe them. I think that make bad translations. Well hell, whatever, I don't care, and I don't think anyone reading this thread cares a whole lot, I'll bet they came to see stuff about Pushit, which you quite brilliantly illuminated what I believe is the correct meaning behind it. Not to say that there aren't more than one. But I think you hit the nail on the head. Claps. Anyway, I'm done.
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Old 09-18-2003, 06:58 PM   #30
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Re: I hope this doesn't piss Maynard off!

i care

i love religious debates, they amuse me no end.
i say keep going, i say, more more, i say, lets work out right here, right now which is the " REAL " religion

Brendon
( my god has a bigger dick then your god )
*smile
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Old 09-24-2003, 10:55 AM   #31
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JTCrace: I really like that interptretation. It fits in nicely with the overall tone of the album (like you mentioned with Jimmy, Aenima and Third Eye) as well as with other of MJK's projects (Orestes from A Perfect Circle ... interestingly enough, Oretses was the brother of Electra, bearer of the burden of the origianl Electra complex, that being the contrasting feminine developmental process). It does indeed take some balls to confront one's own Oedipal tendencies.

Of course, mud-soul had a valid point, that we may never know exactly what Maynard intended with this opus. Maybe it's better that way, to have an experience with the music instead of cognition. Maybe I'm just saying that because this is all way too deep for me :)
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Old 09-24-2003, 09:19 PM   #32
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My slightly different interpretation

I liked your interpretation of Pushit, It helped me shape my theory of it. I don't see it so much as a relationship with the mother figure, but as the relationship with God. That was the first thought that came to my mind when i first listened to the lyrics of the song, that it was a struggle with God. This interpretation helped me understand what I thought of my own theory alot.

Thanks
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Old 09-25-2003, 07:01 AM   #33
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God, It's me, Margaret.

Jung said in his autobiography that the unconscious is simply the unknown. He goes on to say that we could very well call the unknown, "God." So, the mother archetype is a specific manifestation of the divine. In Hinduism, there is Brahman--God. And all the specific Gods and Goddesses are just different manifestations of Brahman. So in that sense, you were right on the fucking money, both our interpretatins are essentially the same.
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Old 09-25-2003, 11:03 AM   #34
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Exactly, I can imagine him reading all these "way off" interpretations, getting enraged, and shooting yet another monitor. Then he fires off a string of hateful e-mails to Kabir about people finding out his secrets! "Stop them!" Good thing he's not in the tabloids.

I don't have enough time to read this entire thread, but after I did some reading that summarized Jungian psychology, this song made sense to my life situation.

Now I have a new observation I'd like to throw out there. Sometimes when he says "You're pushin' me/you push it on me" it sounds like something else.

One time it sounds like "shit on me" or "put shit on me" which applies to my life situation in that I had been shitting on myself for years and didn't even know I could stop. Sometimes it's "pushing me," but sometimes it's "push it on me." The object of the pushing changes. Any thoughts here? I'm thinking pushing the plunger, but that's just my perspective on just about everything. (No, not a toilet plunger.)
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Old 09-26-2003, 07:43 AM   #35
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Re: I hope this doesn't piss Maynard off!

In addition, it sounds like "shoot it in me" at one point.
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Old 09-28-2003, 09:03 PM   #36
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The reason the world is still so fucked up after 2000 years of christianity is our own fault, choice. We chose the paths we take, and we all fall short of the glory. As for your references to the Bible, I am borderline on rejecting any form of it and dismissing it as purely metaphorical (the old testament that is). The new testament has been changed so many times, according to the political agenda of those in charge that its hard to have faith in this man made text. No, I prefer to trust in the personal relationship with Christ, even if it really is only my own subconcious.
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Old 09-29-2003, 09:44 AM   #37
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Outlaw

Several posts above I quoted Paul saying that sin is lawlessness. It was also said of Christ that he was incapable of sin. Therefore in a sense one could say that Christ was lawless. The law no longer binded him, or, as another passage goes: the law was dead to him. Now the question remains, how does one go about transcending the law? Or in other words, how the fuck does one get the hell out of this universe?

Some Gnostic sects believed that one could transcend the law by completely missing the mark, or by sinning completely, totally, and wholly. But it seems the other logical conclusion is that one can transcend the law by following it completely, like the Jews.

It all comes down to agreement. Agreement precedes reality. Therefore all one must do is go back to that point before all of one's past lives, and then illuminate the point when one agreed to have a physical body. "I'm came into this world, I am not OF this world."
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Old 09-29-2003, 12:04 PM   #38
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The above has been very interesting, I must say. But my interpretation of Pushit works well for me...

I see it as a man struggling with his two sides, survival and compassion. The gap is the void which must be crossed in order to pass from this hellish place to the brighter, higher ground where the race will go if we choose to evolve.

1) Choke this infant here before me
Whatever part of the race that refuses to realize our potential, whatever part of the race that refuses to grow up and instead chooses to remain infantile, the speaker will choke (metaphorically, of course, meaning he will do nothing to stop the death that will consume that part of the race). It is necessary, but this is what conflicts with the speaker's sense of compassion.

2) What is this but my reflection
The part of the race that refuses to recognize will still be a part of the race at this point, therefore a reflection of the speaker in the sense we are all reflections off of each other.

3) Who am I to judge just like you do
A question, posed to himself, describing the conflict.

4) Pushin me, shovin me down
Our littlest actions will affect everyone in the world. The group that continues to push after greed, lust, other physical things affect those who want to ascend spiritually. It drags us down.

5) Rest your trigger on my finger/bang my head upon the faultline
A dig at those unwilling to see their light, its almost as if they want the speaker to put them out of their misery, or they push the speaker to the point where he feels he is being pushed into a corner and needs to be rid of these people.

6) Put me somewhere I don't wanna be. Seeing someplace I don't want to see. Never wanna see that place again.
This is a miserable whining voice. The speaker is looking at the place where the people are pulling him, or pushing him, trying to keep him. He hates it. There is no reason to stay here when he knows the other side of the gap holds so many pleasures and the absence of fear and pain.

7) When I say I might fade like a sigh if I stay/You minimize my movements anyway/I must persuade you another way
The speaker tells the group that he will wither away if he stays here, but they dont care. They are selfish. They keep him down anyway. So therefore, he must persuade them another way, hence all the choking and ripping of throats.

8) There is no love in fear
This is the culminating factor!! He is compassionate towards those of the race that will not make it, but understands that they do not feel love. They only fear, and fear is what drives greed and other aspects of the race that we currently possess.

9) Staring down the hole again. Hands upon my back again.
Another reference to how he feels when being pushed around.

10) I will always love you as I throw your fucking throat away/It will end no other way...
This separation is done out of love, the speaker finds. To love the race, he has to take his part in helping those who want to evolve instead of worrying about the ones who dont. We will kill those who arent ready with tears in our eyes. We love them, but we also love life, and it is necessary to do this in order for life to continue.
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Old 10-14-2003, 10:49 PM   #39
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Re: Outlaw

Quote:
Originally Posted by JTCrace
Several posts above I quoted Paul saying that sin is lawlessness. It was also said of Christ that he was incapable of sin. Therefore in a sense one could say that Christ was lawless. The law no longer binded him, or, as another passage goes: the law was dead to him. Now the question remains, how does one go about transcending the law? Or in other words, how the fuck does one get the hell out of this universe?

Some Gnostic sects believed that one could transcend the law by completely missing the mark, or by sinning completely, totally, and wholly. But it seems the other logical conclusion is that one can transcend the law by following it completely, like the Jews.

It all comes down to agreement. Agreement precedes reality. Therefore all one must do is go back to that point before all of one's past lives, and then illuminate the point when one agreed to have a physical body. "I'm came into this world, I am not OF this world."
You can certainly use that logic if you want, but that is twisting it. Think of this. Everybody is somebody, so since of somebody, I'm everybody. If I'm everybody then I'm omniscient, and if that is the case then I'm God. You can do that with a whole hell of a lot of things. He didn't transcend the law, he represented the law because the law was set down by the Father. The Father, Son, and the Holy Spirit are one, so essentially the law was set down by the son. So pretty much Jesus just abided by his laws which made him perfect and faultless which could seem to be a transcending of the law, but it is merely an exact following of the law and a perfect example. "I came to this world" from Heaven, "I am not OF this world" because he is from Heaven, he was God and man.
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Old 10-15-2003, 03:55 PM   #40
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Re: I hope this doesn't piss Maynard off!

Right, Christ followed the law exactly and they FUCKING CRUCIFIED HIM! Following the law is a wonderful thing and it can make life on Earth go a bit smoother. But like Paul said: "All things are lawful," but not all things build up." This means that due to the imperfection of the universe, law can at best, only be imperfect itself, hence the crucifiction.

Your typical Christian hates to hear that the form of Christianity we see flourishing today is only one form of the religion, compared to a multitude of forms in the 1st to 5th century. And at the Council of Nicea the Church kindly decided for the rest of humanity what "Christianity" would be. You see, the Church is a group and a group behaves as an individual. And the very essence of a group is the denial of individuality. Therefore, the Church chose doctrines, ideas, and beliefs that would perpetuate its own existence, its own survival, its own immortality, consequently choosing doctrines that would deny the emancipation of the individual. Unfortunately, people today are only exposed to the Church's idea of Christianity (even those claiming not to belong to a church still seem to be heavily influenced by the Church's gleaning of Christian doctrine). For instance, there exists the Gospel of Thomas, which is said to even predate the synoptic Gospels in the Bible. The Gospel of Thomas certainly paints a much different image of Christ and his message. Oddly, it seems to promote the liberation of the individual. In fact, in one passage of the Gospel of Thomas Christ says that at a certain point he no longer is a disciple's teacher, that at a certain point the disciple transcends Christ's teachings. The movie "Stigmata", though it was obviously somewhat fabricated, brought forth an interesting notion, that Christian writings such as the Gospel of Thomas directly threaten the Church's authority. And when the Church becomes threatened, like any "reasonable" individual, it will fight for its survival.

Another thing...due to how obvious a truth it is people have a hard time noticing that everything they experience is an inner image. You only see what's in your mind, you only hear what's in your mind. So when one talks of God, He's not "out there" but he is right there is your crazy fucking mind. The Father, Son and Holy Spirit are all inner phenomenon. They are all part of YOU. The Father is your Self, the Son is your ego and the Holy Spirit is how these upper and lower kingdoms communicate with one another. Put that in your pipe and smoke it ;)
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