I meditate and get a great feling of escape from it. Thats why I'm questioning if I need drugs. While meditating I have had a feeling that I've left my body, but I wasnt dreaming, because I was concious.

Thanks for all the advice.

i loves me some mushrooms. keeps my mind in that flow between acid trips. i space out my acid trips now to avoid psychosis. personally halucinating all the time dosent sound to bad but since 2 of my friends are both absolutely crazy now from taking too much and taking Syd Barretts example i play it safe. i got tool acid once. had the third eye by Cam de Leon on it. it was intense. mushrooms are much more tame and dont really change you but i find acid has made me a different person. not in a bad way but it will change your perspective on things.

I wanted to point out that just because you don't believe that psychedelics cannot be used as a tool to achieve a level/sense of spirituality doesn't mean it's not valid for other people. I don't think that there's a way to achieve spirituality thru Wicca or (insert neo-pagan idea) here any more do I think that Jesus died for me & follow that path to spirituality. BUT lots of people do, so it's not worth discounting any more than "psychedelic enlightment" or whatever you want to call it. Then again, I've never truly TRIED/EXPERIENCED these other paths, although I rationalize why such practices logically don't make sense to me. For instance, I've never truly explored Scientology because I think that a galactic ruler called Xenu and that whole story is too out there (not to mention have to PAY). I've never tried any of the Thelemic/occult studies Danny Carey is supposedly into. I guess my point is that while I don't believe these other methods, I would not claim they're not real because I have not studied or experienced anything within the systems. Maybe I could cast some killer spells if I tried?

I'm not claiming this to be THE truth or anything, merely giving my opinion like you did. But there's some other people who have similar views...stolen from another thread, stole from Maynard:

“I think psychedelics play a major part in what we do, but having said that, I feel that if somebody's going to experiment with those things they really need to educate themselves about them. People just taking the chemicals and diving in without having any kind of preparation about what they're about to experience tend to have no frame of reference, so they're missing everything flying by and all these new perspectives. It's just a waste. They reach a little bit of spiritual enlightenment, but they end up going, 'Well, now I need that drug to get back there again.' The trick is to use the drugs once to get there, and maybe spend the next ten years trying to get back there without the drug.” -- MJK

In agreement completely w/the POV regarding prescriptions. Most people want a quick-fix, a panacea, rather than actually address the underlying issues/emotions that are the root of the problem. And I think the overprescription is a problem, but they can be used correctly and assist people in treatment (like if combined with psychological therapy for anxiety). Likewise, responsible use of psychedelics would be using as a supplement of sorts that one has prepared for, as opposed to eating them at a prom (I saw that in another thread).

There's a book I got from the library, "Flesh of the Gods: The Ritual Use of Hallucinogens" ed. Peter Furst, that contains an overview of hallucinogen use (incorporating shamanism usually) among various cultures. It includes, mushrooms, cannabis, peyote, and more (The Supreme Court recently ruled to allow a group of Native Americans to continue to use peyote for religious purposes). There is arguably quite clear evidence of ritual use of mushrooms in (Mexican) cultures of the past based on archeaological finds & accounts by Spanish conquerors. There's a picture in the book from Guatemala, ~ 500 BC that is a "mushroom effigy:" a anthropomorphic jaguar/human creature at the base of a stone carved like a mushroom. The last chapter is entitled "Hallucinogens and the Shamanic Origins of Religion". Again, I'm not advocating this or saying it's fact, but rather trying to show that there have been countless groups of people in the past for whom this was definitely real, as well as the scholars who write about it, theorize about it, etc. Terrence McKenna and all his wacky ideas were espoused in a book with the same title as the first half of the title above. Some of his stuff is a little out there, but basically he equates human evolution in terms of language, religion, consciousness, and evertying else inextricably tied together...with psychedelic drug use. I know there's other Tool fans familiar w/him.

I'm not saying anyone should start a psilocybin church or anything, just that there are ideas like these that differ from (many?) people's concepts of religion that come from the organized Big 3.

Thanks. I think it's great that you can escape naturally. Listen, you do what you feel is best for you. Only you know. Just remember, you NEVER NEED drugs. At least you are very smart to think about it thoroughly before you dive in. Good luck and be safe. :)

Hey at least you admit that it does screw with some peoples heads so much that it makes them all fucked up. Hope you stay cool with it.

Fair enough. Totally respect your opinion. (by the way, the reason I am "arguing" so much with the other guy on here is because he is so defensive that he provokes me) You, on the other hand are being quite reasonable about it.

Anyway, you are right in a way with what you say above. Perhaps that is why I have an issue with a lot that has to do with organized religion. There is no ONE BIG TRUTH in my opinion. If someone feels that going to Catholic mass every Sunday or praying facing Mecca, etc. is making them more spiritual, then good for them, I'm glad they have something. The same could apply to psychedelics. I just so happen to believe that none of them are probably truth, particularly the psychedelics because its so far fetched from reality.. much like Scientology is to me, etc.

The only difference with religions, etc. is that believing in them is not potentially harmful to this precious life and body we were given. For all any of us KNOW, this is all we get. We should treat it kindly, with respect, and embrace it with a clear mind and heart.

I'd love to see Bellamadie eat a ten trip of Lsd and then try to tell me that the spirtual things you experience on drugs aren't real. Open your mind up a little and realize that your opinion is uninformed and ignorant. You still haven't said one single source other than "friends" that you've gotten your information from.

Psychedelics only open up what is inside your head already. It is as real as what is always lingering on the inside of your brain. Jesus, I never thought there would be so many closed minded and ignorant people on a Tool messageboard, then again it is the internet so I guess it is to be expected.

I'm only defensive because you state your ignorant and uninformed opinion as fact. I'd hate for some poor soul to read your post and get scared away from something that might otherwise be an enlightening experience. Drugs can be dangerous but so can everything else in life.

I swear, the intro to Third Eye on the Salival cd must be completely fucking lost on you.

Funny, people would say that mushrooms fuck you up permanently but acid never will....

The real truth is that if your mind can't handle the drugs, it doesn't matter if its shrooms or acid....the truths inside yourself that you aren't ready to face up to are what ends up biting your ass in the end. If you don't think mushrooms are as powerful as acid, eat a quarter ounce of some good shrooms and then let me know.

Man, I just realized this isn't even like me. I will admit that she hit a nerve, mainly because I spend a lot of time informing people about the real risks of using psychedelics and also teaching how to cultivate many kinds of mushrooms for themselves, not just psychedelics either.

I bet that bellawhatever doesn't understand that uninformed opinions on drugs effect some people the same way as uninformed ramblings regarding religion or politics.

If you haven't taken psychedelic drugs you have absolutely no right to judge them. If you've ever heard that there stychnine in Lsd, that lsd stores in your spine, that lsd makes your brain bleed...they are all urban legends about drugs.That is part of the reason that I get defensive. People still believe that ecstacy causes wholes in your brain...it isn't true. The study that people used to back that was actually conducted using Methamphetamines, not Mdma. Its very easy for stupid drug rumours to get started and I hate to them perpetuated when the people doing so can't even back up their opinions with more than a, "my friend told me so".

I've seen psychdelics save lives, I've seen them pull people from the brink of depression and suicide. Maybe it isn't for everyone but then again neither is tattoos, piercings or church. Its all up for the individual to decide but making a factual and informed opinion. When people interfere with that, I get defensive.

I would be more than happy to talk with anyone over aim one on one of they want the facts about anything I've mentioned. I'll even give you the negative possibilities, I don't sugar coat anything. I just hate seeing poor information being put out there. I'm sorry if I've offended anyone or come off as a know it all asshole. That was not my intention but I guess that I have difficultly expressing myself online without coming off a little over the top.

Wow, here I was thinking I was the only one.

:) Read my posts.

If this is an apology for discounting my opinion, I accept. I was never arguing because you had a different opinion than me, it was because you were distorting my words into generalizations that you heard form other people. For example, I NEVER said acid makes your brain bleed (lol, that's just funny) or that ectasey puts holes in your brain or even close to any of those things you mentioned. I also feel that you were passing off everything you said as facts, and some of it was opinion.... it's dangerous to confuse the 2. Regardless, we ARE saying the same thing that drugs aren't for everyone. I certainly am not preaching here to anyone. I'm not putting anyone down or saying I'm any better. Just offering the other views that are out there is this world on drugs. I realize that this view might be the minority in the world of a TOOL fan site, however, outside of these types of venues there are many people that feel/believe the same as I do.

SHIT, I read your last post and thought you decided to play nice, but then I scroll up and see this shit. YOU open up your fucking mind to other people's perspective. YOU are being just as, or possible more, close minded than I am. You do NOT know everything and honestly, the fact that you are so defensive makes you seem very insecure. You may not be that way, but you are making yourself look that way.

I have ZERO desire to take lsd thank you. I don't have these amazing mind control capabilities to meditate like some others were referring to here, but I will say... I am generally a happy person, I deal with life pretty well, I am creative, I am talented at art and creative writing, I am philisophical and I enjoy analyzing things, learning, and debating, I am spiritual, etc.... and I am all of those things WITHOUT the use of lsd and I feel good about that. I do not need it for any of this. You may say I am missing out, but then again others say that having an orgasm while being asphyxiated is so much better, but I'm ok with never experiencing that too. lol

And by the way, acid may play around with what is already in your head but if you need to take something in order to do that, then it's not what your head is naturally supposed to do. LOGIC, it's an amazing thing. Fucking with the order and balance of chemicals in your brain is a dangerous thing.

I'm done debating with you. It's obvious you are very narrow minded. Good luck.

agreed. with no offense to bellamadia.

None taken. And a comment on the songs being lost on me... perhaps the true MEANING is "lost" on me, however I enjoy those songs for the talent that exudes from them. The amazingly done music, etc.

Yea, I agree I unwittingly did this some years ago when I was at work and sick. I was nursing a cold on a empty stomach, big fucking mistake. aside from the disassociative effects there was also a nasty come down of depression, confusion and dry heaving. DXM is more of a drug to do, when nothing else is available.

Read "Prometheus rising" by Robert anton wilson.

Just 2 weeks ago some people in the apt next to mine had a CRAZY SHROOM TRIP... haha I just want to share what I saw. Shrooms are fun unless you are stupid like these people in apt. 421. They were havin apparently a great shroom trip and at some point in the night decided to get naked and jump off their 2nd story balcony. Thinking they could fly or something. Dumbasses haha. Anyways an ambulance had to come get them because they hurt themselves on the fall. I love taking shrooms but for god sakes people. Don't think you can FLY. You have to remember its only a trip and eventually you will come down.

also, anything by Terence McKenna.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Terrence_mckenna

Go to the "external links" and you'll find alot of fun and interesting facts.

info- psychology by timothy leary
and in fact anything by leary and wilson. Also if you have access to a sensory deprivation tank try it out its amazing.

Well, let me start by saying I am not one to be proud of the choices I have made but I am proud of the life I now live. I am clean. Adise from a cig and a drink on occasion I do not give in to drugs.

When I was sixteen years old I began to use methanphedimes at the advice of a friend. I became an addict within the first week of using the substance. I was 'tweaking' about 4 times a day for about four or five days at a time.
At first it seemed like a wonder drug; I could stay up for hours, do homework all night, draw and paint for hours on end, lost weight and did not hav eto spend money on food, and even sex seemed to be improved.
After a few months of this I began to look ill- no I did not have holes in my skin because I thought there were bugs under my skin, but rather I had huge bags under my eyes, I lost about 50% of my body weight, and teeth were becoming yellow.
During this period something else happened to me. I began to use heroin. Well, I decided to kick the meth habit but not the heroin and this began a slow and steady downward spiral. I continued to lose weight, became constipated for days, and look ill but thought I was alright because I felt good.
At some point between running out of money and begining to see a nice christian girl I stopped all drug use and not a moment too soon. My friend that helped get me started died only two weeks after I quit. Only days after that our mutual friend was arrested for murdering an old man while trying to find money for crack.

I think that is all I have to say. I have been clean for almost four years now.
By the way, you know you are an addict when thinking of the drug makes you feel like it is coarsing through your veins again.

To anyone who knows me; please do not think less of me.

Congratulations.

thx?

Meth, coke and heroin are very addictive and I've only been talking in relation to psychedelics. I've known some very fine people that got into a lot of trouble because of those 3 drugs. They all affect your health very negatively.

Bella, I'm only discounting your opinion because you can't seem to site any real evidence for anything you present about psychedelics. I am sorry that I haven't been able to discuss it without offending you. I understand thats no way to get your point across. I guess I've just been through this dance with enough people that it is easy for me to just assume you won't understand or at least be open to the ideas I talk about regarding drugs.

As for the people who supposedly jumped off of their balcony...I've heard a story like that a few times but in the several hundred times I've seen people trip out I've never seen anyone be that delusional. Pretty crazy really and I agree those people should just stay away from drugs because they're only hurting peoples' perceptions of psychedelics.

Anyways, to the original poster...have you decided you aren't interesting in trying them? Just curious...

My advice from experience- if you have to take that many precautions to do something which is never as good as its made out to be, dont bother. I have had alot of good times on drugs during that phase of my life, but i honestly dont think it was worth the few bad ones. Shit there is no fear like drug fear seriously. You freak on drugs and it haunts you for a long time *shivers*

How many people have had what they consider to be negative trips? Did they affect you a long time afterwards?

I haven't myself and I've dosed many times on many things at high doses. I understand this probably isn't the norm, just curious.

I've never been much on McKenna, he has too many theories I just can't take seriously. He has some interesting lectures but I think ideals are best left in the abstract. As far as reading other peoples experiences with drugs, I find it interesting but I rarely find that I apply their same ideas and logic into my experiences. I feel that its such a personal thing that it varies widely from person to person. Its like everyone comparing how they feel when they experience other emotions, there are similarities that bind us all but also differences which make us individuals.

Interesting thing, the person who came up with the double helix formation for DNA has said that it was thought of during an Lsd trip. I believe they said it probably wouldn't have came to them otherwise.

I fully agree that there is no fear like drug fear. But even though I havent used anything for 8 years now I wouldnt change a thing about that time of my life. I'd take the good with the bad because even the bad opened my eyes to a lot of things in which made me grow to be the person I am today. There is a lot of 'happy' beautiful things in the unconscious mind just waiting to be experienced and learned from but along with that there is the 'dark' side and you have to be ready if that is the path you end up taking. If you ever do get to meet your 'dark' side... its a life changing experience, even more than the good times/side. But if you think about it thats how life is. What changes you the most is pain and troubled times, when the wound is opened and you stand there raw.

I'd like to add that the mindset that I've developed with the help of psychedelics isn't only present now when I use them. I've integrated those experiences and ideas into my complete conciousness. I can return to similar states without using drugs. Examples would be how I feel towards nature and the earth, how I feel about death and how I feel about my family. I've gotten a better perspective in regards to my relevence to this world we're in. It has really helped me be more accepting with everything in life, the good and the bad.

Heh speaking of drug fear, I know what you're talking about. I've seen a few people go through a few rough times when they got hooked on certain aspects of their life under the influence. At least I can say that those few times I witnessed it the person came out stronger on the other side. One happened to be a guy who was seriously physically abused by his girlfriend of several years. Through a couple of sessions we had, he really learned to not be embarrased about what happened and he quit blaming himself for his girlfriend being psychotic. It was a good thing for him but at some points he did have to feel some pain to be able to get it.

Leary just kind of resonates with me. He turned out to be a little more than what i thought he would be. I to am also into the mystical side of it and he did support the 8 circuits of conciousness map. I havent really read any mckenna but i may have to seeing as though i hear such good things.

I agree some of his theories were out there. But, he was a unique and intelligent person, qualities that are hard to find these days.

Self Medication?

If you haven't heard them already, listen to the talks McKenna gives on ayahuasca. I have a documentary called Shamans of the Amazon. He speaks in this but its mostly about a man and his wife who venture into the rainforest to partake in Ayahuasca ceremonies. Its very interesting, if enough people are interested I can post the torrent and seed it... But yea, he does have some very interesting and intelligent things to say.

Who was the team of guys who studies the myth that there were zombies in South America? I remember reading about it and somehow the team later found out it was a powerful hallucinigen or something...

These are very important experiences/realizations to have. I'm glad that you have drawn these things from your trips.

I do want to say that I believe these things are also possible without the use of drugs, and just as powerfully. Seeing the Northern Lights, camping in the gorgeous wilderness, seeing what seem to be magnificent miracles in nature and life.... they exist without tripping as well. Even concerts, I cannot tell you the euphoria I feel at a concert, it's so beautiful that all these people are here in one place to share the same intense emotions they get from a band. When everyone sings along and shows passion, it gives me chills and has sometimes brought me to tears or induces perma-grin. I get these feelings even in the silliest places because I can step back and see the wonderful blessing we have called life and the beauty of the world around me. The same kind of thing applies to even bad or negative times for me as well. The thing is, you have to learn to STOP, ABSORB, THINK and CONCLUDE in order to get that powerful experience, some people just don't or can't do that... and that's a shame.

On something someone else said on here. I agree with the "no regret" thing, do not EVER regret anything you have done because they are all a part of who you are today. The good, the bad, it all serves a purpose. Again, you can get in touch with your bright and dark sides without the use of drugs if you are reflective enough. Some people are too scared or too complacent to do that, but it is possible. Drugs or not, the important thing is what you do with/about it once you've faced it. You can tap into your unconscious without drugs as well. For me, I do this while doing my artwork. It's amazing what comes out when you completely immerse yourself in something like art.

Please note: I'm not arguing with anyone (lol thanks to prosperone I feel I must say this), I'm just stating that people can have similar outcomes without getting there with drugs.

I wasnt going to get into your debate . but i do have respect for what you are saying. Yes maybe he should have a dissenting voice on here such as yourself. I have done psychedelics and its one of the most powerful things that i have ever done. For all we know this kid has already made up his mind and is going to do it no matter what we say. I respect that he asked our opinion first. I dontdo drugs any more and now i meditate and occasionally when i get a chance float in a sensory deprivation tank. I agree there is other ways to expand conciusness. BUt like i said its a powerful thing. And when someone who has never done it before starts giving an opinion it isnt going to sit well with people who have. If the kid had said" Im about to have sex would you give me some pointers" would you think that it would be appropriate for a virgin to give him examples?

mushrooms can be like acid but you need a lot. when comparing cost to fucked-up-ness acid is like 5$ a hit and like 2 or 3 hits gives you a good trip when with mushrooms its like between 5-10$ a gram and you need like much more to get the same effect. i personally prefer acid. its just a feeling i enjoy much more. at the austrailian pink floyd show that came here i was on 4 grams of shrooms and it was the most fucked off shrooms i had ever been. i dunno what it was but they were awesome.

It's cool. You probably missed it since there are a lot of posts here but I told him in a previous post that I think he is very smart and responsible for asking/thinking before jumping in. :) I totally respect him for that. And I respect everyone else for giving their advice, no matter what it is. I understand that I may not seem "credible" because I have not done psychedelics, however, the point of view that I am trying to get across is the point of view of someone who has never done them and WILL never do them. I think I am very credible speaking as THAT person. So yes, a virgin would have every right to come on here and say why he/she believes it is best to stay a virgin.

I will quote someone's private message to me without naming any names..... I think he/she hit the nail on the head with what I am trying to do here.

"Without your posts on the "drug Advice" topic it'd be a very one-sided thread. Someone suggested that the words "think for yourself, question authority" were "lost on you". However I think that you are one of the few Tool fans who truely does that. Everyone on this forum seems to think what they think Tool want them to think, and question what Tool want them to question."

I agree with what your saying. I dont know if i agree with the tool thing but you have a point. But im sure everyone who has ever done or been around drugs has a horror story. I have horror stories. And quite frankly not one of us on here can guarantee that the kid is going to have a good trip. Believe me when i say that if i told the kid some of the things i have seen he would probabaly swear off any kind of drug caffiene included. I would still never tell someone not to do it. But on the other hand i wouldnt tell him that he should either. He asked for advice, were giving it to him.

The only reason that I've been so harsh on your opinion is because I question how you came to develop that opinion. I feel like your opinion was mostly formed through the opinions of others and not at all on your own personal experiences. I feel like thats the best way to get the wrong perception about things. Thats why I made the comment about thinking for yourself. You can't ever have a truly informed opinion when you're only basing it on the opinions of others, and mostly people you don't know.

Regardless, its cool. I respect you not wanting to take drugs....but if you're interested in knowing more about them there is a lot more information out there that it seems you haven't been exposed to.

Happy trippin' to those who do. :D

Wow, i love how this person asks for drug advice and ppl start arguing their point of view of drugs and psychadellics (and yes, they are the same, but different at the same time)

Anyways, my advice for a first time shroom user...

1) Maybe do some meditation to warm yourself up... Ive had similar experiences during meditation as i have on shrooms, and meditation is completely controlled so you can always back out if you start to get scared or something, and then eventually you can work on conqueering that fear....

2) Take a small dose, you wont be that completely annihilated and seperated from this reality all of us are living in. It will be easier to think and tell yourself everything is ok, if things start to go poorly.

3) Get your ass outdoors amongst nature. Ive had numerous times when ive freaked out inside, gotten outside and been completely fine. Preferably in a place where you wont be running into random people...

4) Keep a good mindset before tripping. If you are reluctant at all, it could potentially ruin your trip. If you are excited in anticipation and you're ready to trip, you will be fine... Although you cant control exactly what happens during your trip, you CAN control how well the trip goes.

5) A lot of people like to eat their shrooms, then smoke a bowl... (to pass the time, and get their mindset right). This all depends how you are with pot. If you love pot, and it calms you down and mellows you out, i say go for it. If you get paranoid at all or anything like that, stay away from it. This will warm you up nicely, and if pot is good for you, your trip will be amazing...

6) like a lot of people said, educate yourself (www.erowid.org) read some other peoples stories and know whats coming.

7) I reccomend a baby sitter to watch you during your trip. Make sure they know not to speak and theyre there to watch and tell you "everything is ok" if things start to go not so well. If they speak you will kind of look at them as ignorant fools and you will just say "you are sober, you dont know anything"

8) As for consumption.... Mushrooms taste like shit and i get sick when i taste them anymore, so take a bite and if its disgusting, put them in a blender with some orange juice and just slam that.

I cant really think of anything else to reccomend... Turn your cell phone off? The last thing you want is to be on the phone with your parents or something while you're tripping, that happened to me one time and it was NOT cool.... Other than that just have a good time and enjoy the spiritual enlightenment.