Yeah...this has been discussed before, alot. Not to mention, anyone can die on a cross...if you recall biblical history, Jesus was not even the only one who died on a cross that day, 2 theives died with him...And you might want to edit that entry...there were alot of errors...if l see another l might cry.
Yes, but who out of those people "Claimed all this time that you would die for me..." hmm? And if they DIED on the cross, how could they be alive to be "suprised, to hear, your own eulogy..." ?
It just blows my mind that someone can be so
ignorant
elitist
condescending when it is obvious that experience is lacking
childish
judgmental
Nothing we have said has gotten through, and she thinks whatever she says is golden and above challenge or reproach.
Again, I am just blown away. I have never met anyone so unwilling to communicate.
I am awake, and I love what I see. What I cannot see is why someone so quick to attack others thinks she is awake, has "heard the call" so to speak. You might be aware of some things, rebecca, but that's nothing. Being aware of some things and letting those things affect your life positively are completely different things. You have shown no positivity or support for anyone. I cannot fathom why you think you are so special or why people whould bend to your whims and opinions, because they are indeed just that, opinions and not facts, deary. Is that what the high schools in Riverside teach? That your shit smells better than others?
Damn Parafucknsucks,
You must be really shallow and light to get "blown away" like a little feather in the wind, by a couple of posts.
ignorant-, no, not me, definantly not compared to you.
elitist-, damn guy, if you want to know about elitists, in the truest sense of the fucking word, check this out. and don't call me a fuking christian because of it either, stupid.
childish-, yeah, I'm still young, learning, and discovering, but on my own, by my own freewill. I'm not being led by the hand as a child would be.
judgmental-, look who's fucking talking!
Saying "we" and speaking for others. Your little sheep have already spoken for themselves, shepard. It's gotten through, I can read. This form of communication is hardly comparable to conversation.
You love what you see? aparently so does about 60% of our american youth, compared to a good 25% of our seniors. Attributed to the "dumbing down" of our education, and society. As our lovely leaders have put it, "Ignorance is bliss" !
I don't think people should take my opinions seriously or to heart. My opinions are sarcastic, because I am sick of people like you being okay with what is going on in our world, as APC puts it "stepping away from the window and going back to sleep". That's my personal opinion, mine.
I could be like you and try to sweet talk, but I'm not going to kiss the ass of ignorance, okay. I'm gonna slap it, got it?
You all are adults listening to "big kid" "adult" music. A child needs nurturing and caring guidence so they can grow up and be adults and think for themeselves. you on the other hand, are an adult. Childish? who's acting like a big baby, wanting to play nice and be spoon fed information.
But don't get my OPINIONS twisted with the FACTS that I have provided. Use your sorting skills. Don't "bend to my whims and opinions". The New World Order talks sweetly to you, it uses crisis to scare the population into submission. APC-"Don't fret precious I'm here" and you actually allow yourself to be lulled into thinking playing nice and going along with the tyrannous beat and flow of the war drum.
Obviously my shit smells good to you, because you eat it everytime I post my sarcastic opinions. You still don't get it though do you.
My date of birth is 4-22-82. I am a taurus, a Bull. My symbol is earth. My name, Revka means noose, connection, Llyn means lake, water, and Sylvaenus means spirit, god, or life force of the trees, forest. Literally interperated,- "The connection between the ground water and the trees". =Earth. My life force is the essence of earth. You are feeding on my intellectual excrement, my bullshit.
You are like that annoying little driver in my rear veiw, riding my ass! Why then are you so suprised when I slam on my brakes and give you something to shove down your ass-riding throat? You are so close to cancer, who originates to the little dung beetle, who rolls that little ball of earth's bullshit home to feed on it. But it completes the cycle. All of our posts are now open for the other elements to view. It's educational to them if nothing else.
By the way, I was not educated in Riverside. I've only lived here for a short time. Besides, our country's scholastic education is a joke. I've been self educated for the most part, but nice try.
For those of you who don't know, I have formally opolgized for hurting para's feelings. I also told him that if he likes to argue, by all means continue. He has, obviously. So he must really like the taste of bullshit, because he'd rather discuss my sarcasm rather then the more important facts at hand, the tyranny we are being forced to live through at this very moment in time. Before you decide to follow this guy, ask yourself, who is herding the shepard, who is watching the watcher, who is leading the leader. Follow the leader is child's play. Grow up and rise up against the oppressor, if not for yourself, for everyone and everything else that is living on this beautiful planet that is all of our home.
Last edited by rebecca22; 10-31-2003 at 03:19 PM..
__________________ Whoever we are, wherever we're from, we shoulda noticed by now, our behavior is dumb. And if our chances expect to improve it's gonna take a lot more than tryin' to remove the other race, or the other whatever, from the face Of the planet altogether.--Frank Zappa
I'm new to this forum. Hell, I wasn't even planning on joining this thing. I just came here to see opinions that differ from my perspective, that could possibly change my own.
I got on to Eulogy because I've personally never connected this song to be about Jesus Christ, and that caught my eye. I've always interpreted Eulogy to be about a charismatic leader. But, most likely, the entire industry of advertising. Here's my take on it, and an explanation of why I took the time to register.
To me, this entire album follows a basic theme, The de-sensitizing and the dumbing down of the American community.
It's no secret that Tool are great fans of the late Mr. Hicks, and this album carries a lot of his messages through out. Aenima? Bill Hicks was talking of Arizona Bay in the late '80's. Another of his biggest rants was of advertising, "If anyone here works in advertising... Kill yourself."
Go back and listen to the ENTIRE album again. Don't take one song out of it and analize the hell out of it. Listen to Stinkfist. Listen to Eulogy. Listen to 46 & 2. Listen to Hooker W/A Penis, and listen to Aenima.
You are all looking for a religious connection? Here's one for you: The Holy Bible is full of parables of how life should be lived. This album is a parable of what's going wrong, and transcending that wrong.
This song is not about Jesus, Cobain or you all bickering back and forth climbing on and off your own crosses (Yes rebecca, yes paraflux and yes reed. From an outsiders point of view, you all took your turn above the crowd).
It is, to me (and will always be), about corporate advertising, and what heartless, mindless self indulgence will be force fed to us when Coke, Nike and Pokemon are no longer in vogue.
You will probably find many holes in this theory, as you have done with each others. Which I look forward to reading. Like I said at the start, all life is a matter of perspective. You, as individuals, and collectively have done little to change my perspective about human nature.
Look at the time and energy you've spent defending yourselves from total strangers and attacking in the same breath. If you met each other on the street, you'd never know it. Well, I guess you'd recognize Rebecca from her photo, but that's beside the point.
Tool is an artistic expression of a group of individuals. It is beauty, pure and true. However, we do not live and die by it. And those that do are fools. I can tell from many of their songs that they do not suffer fools well, so......
I'm dropping off the cross, making room for the next fucking fool.
The people who don't think this is about Jesus tend to be the Christians, get over it. In the chorus where he is talking about 'some prepared to lead the way', he is saying that people look up and kiss ass of people who are prepared to lead the way. People need guidance so they make up bullshit like god and things. The 'would you die for me' is about Jesus claiming he'll die to cancel out or whatever people's sins which he did say he would do (I have no fucking idea how dieing is going to cancel out all the sins inb the world but, yeah). Anyone who thinks Maynard is still a Christian must have some kind of mental disease. What are you all on?
Open to many interpretations? What the hell? It's about as open as 'fuck off' is. And we all know that only has one meaning.
Wrong. I'm not Christian and I don't think it's about Jesus Christ. Think you are right and everyone else is wrong? Try this: Fuck off. There is such a thing as metaphor. Look it up at www.dictionary.com. Why is there such resistance to thinking that the concept of Christ could be used metaphorically?
__________________ Whoever we are, wherever we're from, we shoulda noticed by now, our behavior is dumb. And if our chances expect to improve it's gonna take a lot more than tryin' to remove the other race, or the other whatever, from the face Of the planet altogether.--Frank Zappa
Oh...by the way, generally people get a little upset when you say...'you think this way, you must have a mental disease...what is wrong with you?'(yeah, just read this thread)...Especially on a Tool message board. Just a little social convention you might want to try out: live and let live. I'm not going to tell you you are wrong for thinking a certain way about this song or other songs. Why? It's fucking art, the experience of which, by at least my own definition, is ALWAYS subjective. It wouldn't be art if it were concrete and definite and if there was only one meaning.
__________________ Whoever we are, wherever we're from, we shoulda noticed by now, our behavior is dumb. And if our chances expect to improve it's gonna take a lot more than tryin' to remove the other race, or the other whatever, from the face Of the planet altogether.--Frank Zappa
Although I have visited Christian churches, I am not a Christian. I've also visited Synagauges, Mosques and many other houses of worship for many other forms of "organized religioin". If I had to label my spirituality at this point in my life, I would most likely call myself Animistic. However, labeling spirituality is like calling Tool a "heavy metal" band.
Labeling a religion, is something else entirely. Religion is an acceptable name for cult.
Has it ever occured to you, that most "non-christians" do not spend so much time finding Jesus in everything or see him at every turn around every corner? Maybe you're dealing with subconscious religious issues yourself... Maybe, you should find out who YOU are, before you start labeling others. Maybe you should find your god(s) and understand that yours is not mine, or is it?
Karl Marx once said, "Religion is the opiate of the masses." (Maybe I should have posted that elsewhere). Think about that one for a while.
Maybe you've been sedated so much by religion, that all you can see is that. Wake up man!! Nothing is cut and dry the way you think it is.
Good points 7001. And hey...I did already admit that this song was about me. Anyways, I particularly like the idea of looking at 46&2 and Stinkfist and so on...understanding them all contextually. When it comes down to it, it is a matter of subjective interpretation.
__________________ Whoever we are, wherever we're from, we shoulda noticed by now, our behavior is dumb. And if our chances expect to improve it's gonna take a lot more than tryin' to remove the other race, or the other whatever, from the face Of the planet altogether.--Frank Zappa
I'm new to this forum. Hell, I wasn't even planning on joining this thing. I just came here to see opinions that differ from my perspective, that could possibly change my own.
I got on to Eulogy because I've personally never connected this song to be about Jesus Christ, and that caught my eye. I've always interpreted Eulogy to be about a charismatic leader. But, most likely, the entire industry of advertising. Here's my take on it, and an explanation of why I took the time to register.
To me, this entire album follows a basic theme, The de-sensitizing and the dumbing down of the American community.
It's no secret that Tool are great fans of the late Mr. Hicks, and this album carries a lot of his messages through out. Aenima? Bill Hicks was talking of Arizona Bay in the late '80's. Another of his biggest rants was of advertising, "If anyone here works in advertising... Kill yourself."
Go back and listen to the ENTIRE album again. Don't take one song out of it and analize the hell out of it. Listen to Stinkfist. Listen to Eulogy. Listen to 46 & 2. Listen to Hooker W/A Penis, and listen to Aenima.
You are all looking for a religious connection? Here's one for you: The Holy Bible is full of parables of how life should be lived. This album is a parable of what's going wrong, and transcending that wrong.
This song is not about Jesus, Cobain or you all bickering back and forth climbing on and off your own crosses (Yes rebecca, yes paraflux and yes reed. From an outsiders point of view, you all took your turn above the crowd).
It is, to me (and will always be), about corporate advertising, and what heartless, mindless self indulgence will be force fed to us when Coke, Nike and Pokemon are no longer in vogue.
You will probably find many holes in this theory, as you have done with each others. Which I look forward to reading. Like I said at the start, all life is a matter of perspective. You, as individuals, and collectively have done little to change my perspective about human nature.
Look at the time and energy you've spent defending yourselves from total strangers and attacking in the same breath. If you met each other on the street, you'd never know it. Well, I guess you'd recognize Rebecca from her photo, but that's beside the point.
Tool is an artistic expression of a group of individuals. It is beauty, pure and true. However, we do not live and die by it. And those that do are fools. I can tell from many of their songs that they do not suffer fools well, so......
I'm dropping off the cross, making room for the next fucking fool.
Don't expect too much of a response. I have said my opinions and stated the facts connected to this song already.
I don't know how long it takes you to type, but I have wasted very little time and energy here. I'm not upon a cross, stupid. I never claimed to be a martyr. While your opinions on the dumbing down of this country are almost pointed in the right direction, You should do more work and research before you dismiss the theory of this song being about jesus. It's obvious. Especially to anyone who knows anything about jesus's life, post so-called crucifiction. I'm sure you don't know shit about it.
Don't use the idea of me to make yourself feel intellectually supirior. You are about as dumbed down as the next farm animal.
Who the fuck is living and dying by Tool?
You can't see a connection? If you can't see a connection between religion and this song, then don't even try to connect it with your closed off corporate theory. That's a small part of the web of lies. They are all intertwined. But to find the roots of the tyranny, you must seek out the past, because it is the very foundation of our future.
The people who don't think this is about Jesus tend to be the Christians, get over it. In the chorus where he is talking about 'some prepared to lead the way', he is saying that people look up and kiss ass of people who are prepared to lead the way. People need guidance so they make up bullshit like god and things. The 'would you die for me' is about Jesus claiming he'll die to cancel out or whatever people's sins which he did say he would do (I have no fucking idea how dieing is going to cancel out all the sins inb the world but, yeah). Anyone who thinks Maynard is still a Christian must have some kind of mental disease. What are you all on?
Open to many interpretations? What the hell? It's about as open as 'fuck off' is. And we all know that only has one meaning.
Tend to be christian? I'm no part of that fucking herd. I believe their "savior" faked his death to prove his spiritual beliefs to his swine. Then he jetted of with his lady to france and made some babies. He retired living up the good life.
Who the fuck said Maynard was christian?! You must have some kind of mental disease yourself if you have so totally misinterperated all these posts. That's your problem. At least you know the meaning of "FUCK OFF". Now do it.
Although I have visited Christian churches, I am not a Christian. I've also visited Synagauges, Mosques and many other houses of worship for many other forms of "organized religioin". If I had to label my spirituality at this point in my life, I would most likely call myself Animistic. However, labeling spirituality is like calling Tool a "heavy metal" band.
Labeling a religion, is something else entirely. Religion is an acceptable name for cult.
Has it ever occured to you, that most "non-christians" do not spend so much time finding Jesus in everything or see him at every turn around every corner? Maybe you're dealing with subconscious religious issues yourself... Maybe, you should find out who YOU are, before you start labeling others. Maybe you should find your god(s) and understand that yours is not mine, or is it?
Karl Marx once said, "Religion is the opiate of the masses." (Maybe I should have posted that elsewhere). Think about that one for a while.
Maybe you've been sedated so much by religion, that all you can see is that. Wake up man!! Nothing is cut and dry the way you think it is.
You should taste some of your own medicine, take your own advice. You, Animistic? Listen, just because you have not conformed to any religion definantly does not make you animistic. If you still claim to be, then damn, you are the most small and closed minded animist. Don't expect other animists to aknowledge you as one. Even though it sounds like a cool thing to say about yourself.
I don't know how long it takes you to type, but I have wasted very little time and energy here. I'm not upon a cross, stupid. I never claimed to be a martyr. While your opinions on the dumbing down of this country are almost pointed in the right direction, You should do more work and research before you dismiss the theory of this song being about jesus. It's obvious. Especially to anyone who knows anything about jesus's life, post so-called crucifiction. I'm sure you don't know shit about it.
Well well well, rebecca. Very little time and energy?? You've posted 27 of your lame "Opinions" on this thread alone, since 7/22. Is that very little time?
As far as your opinions go, you seem to want to behead those who will not suck your ass and pat you on the back because you know soooooo much about Jesus Christ.. Big fucking deal. I know a lot about wood working, but I am not a carpenter.
I personally don't care if Jesus died on the cross... which apparently, is VERY important to you. I don't care that Jesus was supposedly the son of God. However, you seem to have spent a lot of time studying Jesus' life. For someone who is not a Christian.... Why is it so important for you to disprove his crucifixion? Sounds to me like you're not real sure of yourself.
And your being up on the cross? Well, No. By NO STRETCH OF THE IMAGINATION are you a martyr. I'm sure you're barely able to form your own opinions, much less lead others to beleive them. Being up on the cross is a reference to your ability to take what is most wrong with Chritianity, and be "Holier than thou".
In any case, your attacks on others is completely off the topic, and signs of your insecurity and immaturity. And until you can have a logical discussion without the visciousness, no one will take you seriously, As I surely don't.
I can’t believe Maynard is talking to Jesus when he challenges whether or not he would die for us. Jesus obviously did, so that should again reroute the listener to another avenue of thought, such as the song is a mockery of followers (sheep) and a challenge to anyone who tries to lead people through loud words and emotions, therefore putting themselves on a pedestal.
Good point.
I would like to add that Jesus did see divinity, so making fun of him saying "...but at least you tried" wouldn't really make sense.
In addition, Jesus was a preacher, but he never really was one to "Point the finger"...in fact, quite the opposite...he was the one to say "Let he who is without sin cast the first stone."
The lyrics also say "You sure could yell"...when did Jesus yell?
"He had a voice so strong and loud and I
Swallowed his facade cuz I'm so..." It could be just me, but these lines and the ones around them, make it sound like Maynard is talking about someone in his own lifetime. Right along these same lines, Maynard says "Don't you fucking lie" referring to dying...and Jesus did. (Like the quote above says.)
This has already been said somewhere, but "Get off you're fucking cross" is just a metaphor...it could be applied to any martyr or would be martyr.
There are just too many holes for this song to be about Jesus.
I would like to add that Jesus did see divinity, so making fun of him saying "...but at least you tried" wouldn't really make sense.
In addition, Jesus was a preacher, but he never really was one to "Point the finger"...in fact, quite the opposite...he was the one to say "Let he who is without sin cast the first stone."
The lyrics also say "You sure could yell"...when did Jesus yell?
"He had a voice so strong and loud and I
Swallowed his facade cuz I'm so..." It could be just me, but these lines and the ones around them, make it sound like Maynard is talking about someone in his own lifetime. Right along these same lines, Maynard says "Don't you fucking lie" referring to dying...and Jesus did. (Like the quote above says.)
This has already been said somewhere, but "Get off you're fucking cross" is just a metaphor...it could be applied to any martyr or would be martyr.
There are just too many holes for this song to be about Jesus.
Everything you said is exactly what I do think I have expressed throughout the course of this tiresome thread. It's just that some people like to attack others for their ways of thought, even though if they actually read things instead of automatically closing themselves off in their beliefs, they might just allow themselves to grow. That is the case in ANY situation, including myself, and not simply pertaining just to this thread.
Please note that I am responding to reading of the first page only. The last post on the first page, in my mind, nail it to a tee.
For those who say it's black and white, crystal clear:
"Black and white are all I see in my infancy. Red and yellow then came to be, reaching out to me, lets me see"
When I first heard this song, Jesus was the first thing I thought about. After listening to it a few more times, however, it became clear to me that I don't think it really is in reference to Jesus, even though there are definitely strong Christian pointers. It very well may be just a general Christian zealot reference. Let me explain, though others before me have done quite a good job.
I believe that this song refers to a general over-zealous individual who is very pointed and firm, trying to lead a group of people. This could be any cult leader. They are the ones who would try to make a big deal out of their death ("then why are you so surprised when you hear your own eulogy") to try and gain as much publicity as possible. They are the ones who rant and rave about everything -- pointing the finger. Placing blame. This, in all historical accounts, is not Jesus - though it could definitely be said of many of the many martyrs throughout history.
As for the talks about "someone above the crowd", let's not take the song too much out of context there, as it is important:
"Standing above the crowd, he had a voice that was strong and loud, and I'll swallow is facade 'cuz I'm so eager to identify with someone above the ground, someone who seemed to feel the same, someone prepared to lead the way".
This is not so much a reference to the individual, but the follower. Somebody looking for a leader, and there is no indication there that this person is Jesus Christ, and I have a hard time seeing Jesus derived from that.
And on another note: "we'll need the fucking space to nail the next fool martyr".
This point is pretty insignificant, but this seems to vaguely imply that there were ones before him, and with the Christian references, Jesus would have to be the first in this regard, making it seem less likely to me that this would be a reference to him, but rather, subsequent followers. Now, I am definitely not proclaiming this analagy is one of the stronger points in my reasoning, but it is a thought nonetheless.
"Ranting and pointing his finger at everything but his heart."
Jesus was most definitely not a finger pointer, with the exception of maybe the Roman rulers and priests. Again, however, subsequent animated leaders and "martyrs" throughout history are widely known for the "fire and brimestone" speeches, finger pointing, and.....:
"a stand on every little thing, and so loud"
Now... could this song be reference to Jesus? I suppose it could. It's more doubtful to me than it was initially though, for sure. It's definitely not "black and white", though, regardless of what the hot-heads in the thread that are getting so upset over the issue seem to think.
Although I'm not a Christian, I do think that the Bible does teach "good morals," which is lacking, in my point of view, from today's society. I cannot say what Maynard is stating in the song Eulogy, but I know a common theme throughout many of lyrics is the idea of "open-mindedness". It's the fact that I can read the Bible without having to believe that it is correct, but understand that they are stories that one can obtain knowledge, or at least some account of history. Anyways...there's my "two cents".
I think this song is about Judas' point of view on Christ. Someone I know told me this and This is probably the opinion of many other members of the board. . I listen to the song and listen to it thinking its about Judas view on christ and it makes sense.
I believe that eulogy may have a double meaning. Bill Hick is undoubtedly one inspiration for the song, but couldn't mr. keenan have been talking about christ, too????? Who said it only had to be about one person? it may just be possible.............or it could also be about every single smooth talker who has convinced others to see things his way. ya think?
Last edited by toolfan420; 08-02-2004 at 09:03 PM..
The lyrics simply don't fit. Such phrases as "waiving and pointing his finger at everything but his heart." Jesus was never judgemental (except to the pharasees for THEIR hypocrisy), and was always loving, patient and kind.
Wow, you know jesus personnally... could you get me his autograph?
The lyrics are "ranting and pointing his finger at everything, but his heart".
This is a reference to the teachers of that day and age, who would stand on the street corners and shout their word. Jesus wasn't the only one who did this, hundreds did. Watch 'Monty Python's Life of Brian' and you'll see what i mean. In fact just walk around Hyde park in London and you'll see what i mean, people stand on soap boxes and rant their piece.
Jesus did the this and this is where one of his most famous lines came from, "Blessed are the meek, for they will inherit the Earth".
And the part of the line where maynard sings "...at everything but his heart"?
personally i think thats maynard talking about how Jesus knew he was going to die, but never questioned it.
But then again this whole message could just be absolute bollocks and maynard could just be singing about nothing in particular at all, just to make people like us pretend to be jusus and rant and rave in our own separate ways. Or on the other hand, I may not even be here and this could be a figment of your imagination, your computer talking to you telling you that you are a simplistic dult for wasting you time spending so long staring at your monitor like it was the new idiot box, every day.
GET A LIFE, LEAVE YOUR BEDROOM ONCE IN A WHILE AND, DO SOMETHING MORE IMPORTANT!! LIKE TEACH YOURSELF TO PLAY THE MOUTH ORGAN OR MAKE SOME NEW FRIENDS OR SOMETHING!!!
__________________ Today is the day when i realize all of my imperfections
Something someone said in page 2 was actually really worth looking at.
Maynard fits a lot of the lines in Eulogy himself, maybe this is a bit of self-parody as well as a comment on whatever else (Bill Hicks, Jesus, Stalin whatever ..theres merit in them all)
Wow that thought actually inspired me to register rather than just lurk. Magic!
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