Now that you mention it I see something else showing his spite towards her faith...so maybe I'll be changing my mind about what he meant. "Fetch me the spirit, etc...", insinuating they don't care at all that she's arrived. They haven't been paying attention to anything, least of all her. Who knows.

awwww.

Unfortunately, the song uses faith-based terms and expressions that represent either

a) belief

or

b) cynicism

That is the same thing I've asked others. I believed he was an agnostic as per all of his other songs. Perhaps his mother is his savior and he is just hoping for the best for her. Maybe his mother believed so strongly in god and an after -life, he is hoping she is correct and gets what she wants. then again her tragedy may have made him recant all that he has said in the past and find faith. Then yes it is highly hypocritical. After all is said people do change and to each his own opinion. If Maynard now believes in a god or zion then so be it. And if he always did, I didn't know.

Sif its weak minded! It is people showing compassion dammit. Why cant you see that. I hope i dont hit too much of a nerve here, but think about it. If you or someone lost someone close, would you just think 'meh well thats over now'...or would you actually give in and accept for just a moment that there is something beyond your usual scope of belief.

Like i indicated before, when some sort of thing like that happens, a persons thoughts are all around the place. It doesnt make them a hypocryte, it just shows that they are a human being.

Wings2 doesnt necessarily indicate Maynard has taken on a new set of beliefs. I am more inclined to think of it as just a reflection of just some moments of thinking. We all think do we not? Sometimes a non-dominat thought comes in there and takes over for a little while and then back we go to the way we usaully think.

Once again, go open your mind or something

You mean open the Jesus Parachute?

Do you even get why its called the jesus parachute, I mean you just explained it perfectly without even realizing it (i lol), its not about external reality, its about what you want to believe, without question, without thought, its ignorance and blind faith at its most blatant.

Given that you did your usual amazing job of avoiding it last time, I'm just going to go ahead and repeat an earlier point here:

If Maynard were given the task of crafting or choosing a headstone for his mother's grave, would it be cynical or hypocritical of him to choose a cross or similar sculpture incorporating Christian imagery?

Likewise, how is it inappropriate in a song that is a tribute to his dead mother that Maynard explores the issue through the lens of his mother's beliefs?

Exactly, the song is a tribute to his mother...

Lol, sub, id love to see how you would have written this tribute...
"Well i kind of liked my mum... but she was a pathetic, desperate fool and coward, couldnt face up to the facts of life... oh did i mention she was weak minded? ignorant? blind?"

Oh and i love an earlier comment of yours saying "we need clarity", or something as such... Dude, its not "our" music, tis THEIR music, they can make it whatever the fuck they want. It's not like they suddenly owe it to you to make every message or whateva blunt enough so your small mind can understand.

Sub Machine is a flogger!!!

Unless you are MJK himself, you cannot say what he believes or doesn't believe! Move on loser!

A headstone is a private symbol of remembrance, for those who knew the individual.

Is the difference sinking in yet?

Wait, theres still more.

A headstone reflects the belief of the individual under it, the song went way past that.

In doing so, the song directly contradicts previous songs.

Therefore

a) Mayn believes in what he sings of

b) Mayn does not believe in what he sings of

A private symbol of remembrance... in a public place? Last I was aware, churchyards and cemetaries are not private locations, the public is welcome to visit as they please. I thinkt he word you're looking for there is personal. But of course, that undermines your argument as a song can be personal, whereas private is not a term we usually associate with mass-produced art.

You're right, though, in saying that a headstone reflects the belief of the person enterred below it. But then you throw in the totally unsupported claim that the song went "way past that." So, I put it to you, humour me, provide some examples of how this song somehow has gone beyond being a tribute to his mother's memory and character.

Anyone notice that the Reverend Sub repeatedly only gives two choices, only sees two sides... he can't seem to find the truth which lies somewhere hidden between a and b...

I still want to know when Maynard pronounced his faith. Who are we to say what he does or doesn't believe in? I've yelled at Jesus plenty of times, but I still follow his teachings. I've felt betrayed plenty of times, but I follow in my own way how I think Jesus taught. I've always wanted to write a book called "Jesus wasn't a Christian." I disagree with Christianity yet follow Christ. Does Maynard hate the person or the institution. No one's ever said...least of all him (that I know of).

Maynard can say what he wants to, even if he's not serious.

When it describes the fairy tale as actual within external reality, that there is a soul, and a place called heaven that is a souls home that the soul travels to, and knocks on gates and is greeted by makers god and god junior and then gets wings to become an angel.

_____________________

Shake your fists at the gates saying:
"I have come home now!
Fetch me the spirit, the son, and the father.
Give me my, give me my wings!"

"I only pray heaven knows When to lift you out "
You're going home...

Should you see your maker's face tonight
Look him in the eye
_____________________

Should you see your maker's face tonight
Look him in the eye

See also: if. As in, it's not certain. In fact, the use of "should", rather than "if" suggests far more uncertainity and unlikeliness that she'll see her maker's face.

The major failing in your argument is that at no point does the song present it's contant as "actual within external reality". That is your assumption based upon the fact that you're taking the song entirely literally with only a cursory examination of the lyrical content. This song is fundamentally a tribute to Maynard's mother and an exploration of her death upon Maynard. It is clear that despite his contempt for organised religion and hypocrisies rampant there and his disagreements with his mother's own faith in the face of such adversity, this very faith was both a source of inspiration to Maynard and something which deeply shook his own rejection of religion.

So you can bandy around all these 6th Form, Philosophy-For-Beginners phrases like "Jesus parachute" and pseudo philosophical formulations with =/= and either a is true or b is true, but in your attempts to simplify a personal tribute from son to mother into some sort of theological thesis, you are reducing a complex issue into a totally unrepresentative straw form at which you continue to tilt. It's not a case of Maynard believing this or that, it's a case of him exploring that moment at which he let his mother go, and the feelings that surrounded that: the intimidation of someone so close to him maintaining a faith he felt was misplaced right up until her death, his pride of her determination and genuinity(?) in the way she lived her life, his feelings of inadequacy for failing to match the conviction and possibly the goodness she displayed. Maynard is not saying "here's what I believe in", he's saying "this is how it felt to lose my mother, this is who she was to me."

I think this is about as coherant and clear a refutation of your arrogant and willfully ignorant mischaracterisations as I'm going to be able to muster up, and while I fully anticipate that you are simply going to take my words out of context if not ignore them completely or find some other way to remain set in your ways and your arrogance, I only ask that you actually seriously consider that very pressing chance that you may be totally off the mark in your interpretation of this song.

WELL SAID SEMP!!
The Reverend Submachine would like Maynard to avoid any references to anything he finds disturbing. There is at no point in this song any way I try to look at it, that Maynard espouses his own religious beliefs.

It is telling the facts you ignore because they refute your claims:

Shake your fists at the gates saying:
"I have come home now!
Fetch me the spirit, the son, and the father.
Give me my, give me my wings!"
"I only pray heaven knows When to lift you out "
You're going home...

There is nothing less worthy of respect than blindly clinging to a fairy tale, there is nothing more worthy of respect then accepting reality instead of accepting what you WISH is reality.

No, it is a case of Maynard believing, or not believing.

Now, if you want to conclude that "should" extends to all the Christian mythology mentioned in the song, that is a possibility. But its also an assumption, and on this particular issue of religion, (false) assumptions are the root cause.

Also, even if you accept that assumption, it still allows that the Christian mythology may in fact be reality.

I reiterate: the order in which Maynard names the Holy Trinity would create an upside down cross.
And I am sorry if I reference religious symbols that you find politically incorrect...

Dude, you're advocating CENSORSHIP???? OMG!

. . . and when all is finally said and done, when submachine eventually realizes the lyric is not about Maynard and what he does or does not believe, we will be left with the reality that this is an epic masterpiece that tells us a story of emotion and pain with words that give us images that let us share. . . .

Hmmm...I guess I'll just listen to the cd then, try to get out of it what it means to me in my life...and go on living.

Maynard is not being a hypocrite, he is relating how he viewed his mothers life and what he viewed her death to be using her views as a medium to give insight into her life and death and the possible "after-life". This song is like an epic, romantic poetry even, could it be that the song is using a typical "persona" to relate a event or emotion that may not be directly tied to the author. And as far as choosing a side, maybe you are cofusing people with morals and ethics, morals have to be clear cut black/white, but people can be grey, they are not neccasarily all black or all white at any point in time, perhaps they eventually choose a particular moral code and stick to it, but there is always mistakes or doubts, therefore leading to a trend of most people being grey. And finally maybe Maynard respects her for believing like she did, "I dont' care what you believe in, just believe in something and believe with all your heart"perhaps he may not share her beliefs but respected her faith in believing what she did believe in throughout some of the "trials and tribulations". Even relating the song back to "Judith" " never taste of the fruit/never thought to question why" she never doubted, maybe he respected that hince relating her to a "pillar of faith". So maynard isn't hypocritical, people can change or poets/songwriters can express an idea or event through a persona. that doesn't make them a hypocrite, one could go back throughout literature and find expamples where the write could have been writing to express his ideas or writing to show and idea or a fault in one, Machiavalli for example, his life shows that the prince could have been a satire, but no one shall ever know for sure, even poets such as Blake and Pope may not have believed what they wrote the poems were told from a "persona" seperate from teh author. Or crazy idea maybe Maynard is an aesthitic , Oscar Wilde type "art for art's sake". Maybe it is a beautiful song , to be a beautiful song.

and To Sub machine: "Who are you to wave your finger. . . You've partically raised the dead"
And if you need an interpretation: who are you to wave your finger at maynard calling him a hypocrite and a fool? You've pratically raised his mother from the dead and brought up her faith in relation to her son and his beliefs.
Funny how "the pot " comes right after Wings Part II huh?

Youre even wrong about that, the upside down cross would be the son, spirit, father.

Hahahahah... I Love this album even more...

Submachine, find a brick and hit yourself with it. Now you will experience what it's like to read 3 pages (I couldn't force myself to read all 7) of people bringing up reasons as to why Maynard is not a hypocrit.

It is simply a tribute to his mother. That is it. It doesn't mean he believes in it. It means that he loves his mother and whether or not HE believes in what she believed in, she deserves to get her wish. He loves his mother enough to want to see her dreams fulfilled, whether he thinks they are realistic or not.

I'll give you an example:
You are watching someone who you are very close to jump off a bridge because they believe they can fly. Do you hope they hit the ground, or do you hope they actually fly? Regardless of whether or not you believe they CAN fly, you still hope they don't become a splat on the ground, right?

Would you go jump off the bridge? No...probably not, but that doesn't stop you from hoping that they actually do fly.

Does that make you a hypocrit? Absolutely not. It means that you loved someone enough to look past their own ignorance and hope that they're dreams come true...no matter how unrealistic they are.

You can make that statement after you know what Maynard does or does not believe.

Could be, but then since its not Maynards real feelings, it would be pretty emotionless lyrics.

Right, Maynard now respects "never doubting", never questioning, never thinking for yourself, thats not hypocrisy at all..right..............

I like how you ignored my post. Could it be that your head isn't as thick as you've made it seem?

LOL, I love your example because it proves my point perfectly.

What kind of retard would hope they would actually fly?

The same kind of retard who believes in an afterlife.

Mayn is ACTING like that kind of retard in this song.

Wheter he is or not, is up to debate.

"Never thought to question why" but why what? why this was done to her....She accepted it as part of God's plan as most christians do...That is part of the faith...
And if you read any poetry at all from the Romantic period...Then you will see it is FILLED with emotion...but it is still using the "persona" form...

"Foot in mouth and Head up ass so what you talking about"

Considering that everything is simple and black and white in your world, think about this:

Put yourself in Maynard's shoes.

Your mother, who is a devout religious Christian woman, dies.
Lets assume that you do not share her beliefs.

Do you:

A) Sing Wings for Marie pt 1 and pt 2?
Thus stating some things that deep down you aren't actually convinced will happen, but through singing them you not only respect your Mother's memory but also find an outlet for your grief.

or

B) Sing a song totally focussed on what you think to be true.
Thus stating that your dead mother was wrong, all she believed was a lie and a waste of time, thereby you disrespect her and turn your grief into anger without letting it dispel.

Or the other side of this thin coin you keep filpping:

You now share her beliefs.
Obviously you just sing Wings for Marie, no problems there, it's a Jesus Parachute (except for the fact that he seems to have missed some Bible study, if he really has given himself over to the Lord).


Okay, so thats the two options that will ever exist, explained well enough for you?

But, wait there is a problem with all of this. Life isn't black and white....

Could it be that if Maynard doesn't share his Mother's beliefs then it doesn't mean he believes the opposite to her? Is that possible? Could it mean that he agrees with her on some points but not on others? Is that at all logical? Could it be that he in fact has no beliefs whatsoever? Therefore meaning he could say he wished for anything he wants without it implying anything at all about his intentions.

Goodness, what if that were true? What then? That would mean that we can't intepret anything from his lyrics at all and expect it to be the actual truth. That would mean that we can't just think of two opposing options and be able to say "You're either with us or against us". Or to pick a quote from another stupid American: "Pick a side"

Again, the grey area is between what Mayn feels / believes, and the lyrics in the song.

Those who find the song touching must think Mayn feels / believes everything he says in the lyrics.

However, it is to children and the slow that we tell the heavenly fairy tale to when a loved one dies. A grown man does not need this 'outlet', nor should be propose it to others.

The song works as a tribute until he extols the xtian myth and mythology, without qualifying. He should know better, he should be better.

Ever seen 12 angry men? Remember that last guy who would not say "there is reasonable doubt that he is not-guilty" and they asked for proof and he slammed a picture on the table of his son that ran away from home saying, "there is all the proof you need."
Here, my father died in China, he practiced Tai Chi and some Zen. I do not practice Tai Chi nor do i adhere to Zen practices. But do you not think that if he had a tombstone that his epitaph would read something from a Zen master or a Master of Tai Chi , quoting on death? But that doesn't speak for the whole family, it would speak for him . Even if he just has a plaque or an epitaph inscribed on the urn, wouldn't it be something dealing with HIS beliefs and not the family's? Isn't the point ot Honor the dead ?

It's generalizations like this one that illustrate your inability to think outside your box.
Everything makes sense in this box, its rules are very clear cut and you can very well argue "logically" as long as it's done within the scope of your vision.
You do seem to put effort into making your points, support them with data and quotes that you have pinned to the inside walls of this very well constructed box that you sit in.
I imagine it'd be extremely difficult for anyone to crawl inside there with you and defeat you, in anything, on your own terms.
I hereby dub thee Sir Blindly of Boxton.

This (well illustrated) idea has been presented.
It was blocked from making its intended point with a weak "public vs. private" argument that seemed thrown together, in desperate reaction, to defend against this sense-based attack.

Prove there is no Easter Bunny, Lars. Prove it.

Gotta agree, for once.
Burden of proofs lies with the one making extraordinary claims.

You saying that Maynard believes in Christ just because he writes Wings is just like saying Maynard has anally raped someone in prison because he wrote Prison Sex.

'Nuff said.