hmm... that is kind of a good point, although he does use heavenly imagery (shake your fists at the gates) but you may be on to something, actually it may hold true that maynard himself does believe in a supernatural higher power that may not be necessarily be god, heaven or the generally accepted idea of the christian afterlife. it may be something different entirely but along similar lines.

Then why would he, or we, expect his mothers soul fly up and to bang on the gates of heaven to be let in?

Whats the point, whats the purpose, now that she is dead her belief system suddenly has relevance? Jesus parachute.

This "Jesus parachute" that you keep bringing up has no relevance to this song.
He's not "expecting" anything, you continue to miss the point and seem completely incapable of shifting your perspective to allow for symbolism.

Well, I guess we haven't completely ripped off eachother's heads. Now, I've just been skimming most of the comments and don't know how many times this specific line has been talked about, so, if it has, I speak to emphasize. Listening to this song presents a whole slew of ideas and opposition to those ideas (obviously) but if there is one part of this song that just bellows subtextual discovery, it is this: "I never lived a lie, never took a life, but surely saved one." If that doesn't represent an intellectual shift of some sort, I do not know what will.

What do the gates of heaven "symbolize"

There are those here who believe he is "hoping" for something, for his Jesus parachute to save his mommas soul.

Recognition for her strength and faith in the face of pain and tribulation.

I'm not one of them. You keep sticking it in there almost indiscrimantly like some weak catch-phrase that's supposed to cut down others' posts, to break them down to your simplistic take.

Maynard, is that you?

Almost agreed on the point about the treatsie - the song comes close - but isn't it within his purview to question and redefine his perspective if he chooses?

I should say that in no way am I saying he has done this - but surely you must agree that whatever life experience influences his art, that holding him to any static or captured moment (and that is what a past work is) suffocates the essential if not vital element of growth?

Put another way, must he be held perpetually to any former position because of how deeply it has connected, influenced or reified an audience?

Dude, I really don't take exception to your initial question about hypocricy - and be honest, your initial question that started this thread pre-supposed hypocricy - the burning question is why would you discount the possibility that Maynard himself would show humility in deference to his mother's beliefs - which is, in my opinion, the ultimate sign of respect...

That's all I have to say about that.

...btw your big mouth has done a fuck of a job exciting the populace...kinda not unlike enjoying a car crash

Little boy, that is not strength, you just described the desperation and ignorance that gave birth to faith and religion and the reasons it persists today like a disease.

No, not quite. Thanks anyway =). But it is an attempt to give perspective on an every day human goal and its faults as it relates to what goes on in this forum (and Wings For Marie/ 10,000 Days) in a more general sense; take it as you will.

not necessarily. he is hoping so for the sake of his mother.

On the one hand, i agree with you. IMO religion is a load of baloney, born of fear and ignorace (though i think its more fostered today by the greed and power of old men).

On the other hand, i want to smack you across the face. There are seriously a whole fuck load of people who have faith in their faith (heh), not because they are afraid of death, and desperate for something after, and not because they are too stupid to rationalise the fluke that is existance, but because they beleive (for whatever reason, unbringing or whathaveyou) that their religion is RIGHT, and GOOD, and TRUE, and whatever. A lot of these people make huge sacrifices for their religion. Some of these people endure alot for their faith.

And for you to put them all under the blanket of ignorant and desperate is extremely offensive and arrogant.

It is also very possible that Judith was one such person...

Fools, all of them.

"It is a telling fact that, the world over, the vast majority of children follow the religion of their parents rather than any of the other available religions." - Richard Dawkins www.richarddawkins.com

Ahhh. So you are a fucking git then. Without a doubt a lost cause.

You really hold yourslef that much better than everyone else dont you? Wow... must be nice to live in your world, being so perfect and all... must be a god like feeling.

Heh :P, i really really really hope there IS a heaven and hell, so i can meet you in hell... should be fun...

for some reason this hit me as really...really...fucking stupid.

anyway. hey slickni...i mean submachinegun, hey...http://emomaynard.ytmnd.com/

(wow maynard got a little mad in that bit and stoped singing)

Dawkins states the facts, if your mind is capable you can then determine truth:

"It is a telling fact that, the world over, the vast majority of children follow the religion of their parents rather than any of the other available religions." - Richard Dawkins http://www.richarddawkins.com

heres a question. if i was to make a poll & the question was, should submachine be banned from the 10,000 days forums. how would you vote? i'd vote 'yes please' i'm sick of all this stupid sh*t you say on practically every thread submachine.

I would vote to let Submachine stay because everyone is entitled to their opinion. Sub's blantant display of ignorance and closed minded intolerance has no effect on me. If you really want sub to go away, stop responding.

Poor Submachine! So wrapped up in his own dogma!! it is pitiful.
The truth is yours to discover, Submachine... it does not reside in your favorite book or in Maynards words or in the Holy Bible... the truth is in you!! You must stop fighting the dogma your own "sacred texts" - open your mind...
I think these two pieces are such a powerful work of art that they have created a struggle within you to abandon that book you cling to like your own Dawkins parachute... sit back, listen to this incredible musical masterpiece... and when you feel that anger brewing understand that its the truth trying to reveal itself to you and your belief system doesn't want to let it in.

Hey... if it makes you feel any better, the order that he tells mom to ask for the holy trinity is exact reverse order of the Catholic "sign of the cross"!! They do it ... "father, son, holy spirit" he says "bring me the spirit, the son and the father". In your black/white simplistic religious system - does that make him "good"?

Pull your head on out your hippie haze and give a listen
Shouldn't have to say it all again

and again

and again

It must suck to be so lacking in the Brain Dept., eh Sub?

your point is?

When exactly are you going to stop sucking the balls of Dawkins?

ahahhahahahahaa

It is still strength, regardless of how "true" the source is or how "delusional" or "desperate" the individual may be it tapping into it. I have several issues with organized religion and am pretty well aware of the history of the evils that it has spawned. Again you miss the point entirely and manage to call me "little boy" in the process...
It was a weak attempt to be condescending but the true tone of it was one of veiled insecurity and inferiority complex, of someone who doesn't really have the confidence to be that way in real life interaction and so comes across awkward and strained when attempting to play this role in this forum.
Sadly, it was as imaginative as anything else he's said.
I give up on this one, it really is torturous and futile.

When Dawkins stops feeding him quotes in return.

I just read this whole thread (My eyes are now blleeding) and you know what really annoys me about you? You never ever use a whole quote, you allways edit it in some way so it appears out of context. Frustrating to say the least.

As for your opinion on the song, i'll except it, I have to. However the way you are going about defending your belief is flawed. I have seen little attempt to back it up, you seem to be mearly stating the same thing again. I.e. "I'm right, your wrong".

It is not about right and wrong, the point of the forum is to express what you feel in relation to the songs. You have stated your opinion, you are sticking to it and i do not see you moving from it. In some ways i respect you for that (However I would fully respect you if you went about it in a more... mature manner).

I don't see fault with the imagery in this song, it is Maynard paying respect to his mother. It is possible to respect and talk about a religion without actually believing in it, you do not need to believe in something to understand/criticise/empthasise or derive emotion from it. He has a right to do it and you in turn of favour should respect him for that.

Woah i rambled.
/end

Again, he is "paying respect" to that which he respects least about his mother ("Fuck your god")

This is contradictory and hypocritical, whether the average fan is capable of understanding this or not.

was that 2nd part towards me? cause i can't really tell.

Ok, so i have read 2 pages...dont know if anything was resolved in the next few but i shall reply now.

It shows compassion. You piss me off submachine. If someone dies, despite beliefs, most people that i have known say something along the lines "s/he's in a better place" or make some spiritual reference. Regardless of whether they are christian or not. I think, when something touches you so much - your beliefs become irrelevant for that one moment.

Go open your mind or something.

Submachine is a religious zealot, whether the average religious zealot is capable of understanding that or not. He quotes scripture to defend ideas that he believes are his own, but they are not, they are something he found that ease the pain of his shortcomings and he clings to them, mewling and puking.
There is no difference between the intolerance he expresses and that of Jerry Falwel, Pat Robertson, Osama Bin Laden, the armies of the crusaders, the Judges of the Salem Witch Trials and the Spanish Inquisitiion.
We will find him one day burning Tool cds and blowing up churches....

She's probably in hell anyway.

LOL, assuming the possibility that there is one and something that determines who goes there!!!

This is called change.

She was alive, paralyzed, praying to God. He said "Fuck that dick, he did this to you, what are you praying to him for?".

Now she is dead. He says "Well, it's all over now, you never lost your faith, I hope it served you better than I thought it would."
There is no point in him continuing what he said in Judith. She isn't there to hear it anymore. And what if he did? "Hey Mom, your dead. No heaven huh? Told you so, should have listened to me. Stupid Christians..." Yeah, that would be a great song to write about your deceased mother....

Thats a very simplyfied view of the songs Judith and Wings for Marie. I don't expect you to understand.

However, I now know where your anger toward this subject comes from. You hate Christians (and organised religion in general). I sympathise with this. I agree that organised religion is one of the worst facets of human nature, if we could all rid ourselves of it and come to a greater understanding of truth then we would be so much closer to a peaceful world.
That said, you don't seem to have a mindset very far removed from that of fundamentalist Christian. You are locked into a pattern of "this is right" and "this is wrong". You have your own set of beliefs and when others don't agree it is like talking to a brick wall. Much like when a Morman stands behind his Bible like it is an impenetrable wall. "Fools all of them" you say. If you want to be less of a fool then you need to examine exactly what it is that makes these people think this way and then examine yourself. I think you will find that fundamentally your thinking is the same.

I don't Maynard really puts much thought into his lyrics, that's probably why they're so contradictory.

That would be the point of an OPINION forum, buddy!!

Submachine gun should watch the A Perfect Circle DVD "aMOTION" and turn the MJK commentray on. Maynard explains most of the questions he is asking. and to the qoute of "fuck your god" (which i think he is taking from "judith") he said in the commentray that he doesn't mean fuck "god as in what she believed" or "a god in which is diffrent than hers or yours" he then went on to say "fuck YOUR god" as in tot he user that is listen to the song. So no matter who or what you believe in he is saying fuck you to. listen MJK anwsers your questions for you. just got to go out of your way to say it. I think i have the whole thing he said in text. ill look for it.

Good God man! Are you out of your mind??? Exactly the opposite please. If Maynard contradicts himself its because HE IS THINKING!!! Don't tell me you haven't been able to see the value of both sides of an argument you've had with yourself over how to handle a situation - or MORE IMPORTANTLY - while trying to understand or figure out the truth...
Maynard is not a linear thinker like Submachine.
He puts a lot of thought into everything!

If he puts a lot of thought into something then he should be able to resolve the problem.

Who says he hasn't?