maybe maynardo adopted the christian faith!

Him being agnostic wouldn't make him a hypocrite.

He's never said in any interview or song I know that he believes God doesn't exist.

He's criticised people for blindly believing in a God, he's criticised them for following the church but never outright said "God doesn't exist."

if i would have ever found maynard to be a hypocrite, it would be him preaching to his tool fans "think for yourself" yet preaching to apc fans "let's all vote bush out of office." (taken from seeing them live...) obviously his sheep fans are going to listen to their beautiful savior maynard. just sort of funny. i guess he wasn't an authority to be questioned.

This was already clear. The question was "where in the song does it say, hint, or imply his own disbelief in her religion?"

Not in his contempt for religious people. Her religion and its beliefs.

What we have is the exact opposite: "Shake your fist at the gates" "I only pray heaven knows When to lift you out "

Does he literally believe or not? If not, he is exploiting the death of his mother for a song with 'poetic license'.

As for the poetry itself, what message is this? Sure it feels good to want to believe a loved one finds eternity in the afterlife, thats why we have religiion. But its this weakness and ignorance in trying times that we are supposed to be questioning and fighting against.

"Should you see 'your' maker's face tonight."

Not "Should you see 'the/our' maker's face tonight."

Should she see that which she believes in, and was therefore right in her belief all along then she should demand her reward for her suffering.

Maynard attacks those people who say "This is the right thing to believe, trust in me, don't judge or question." Also, he's clearly not an atheist despite how much you may want him to be one.

Oh, and it implies his disbelief of her beliefs with the "Set as I am in my ways and my arrogance, burden of proof tossed among the believers" line.

What the hell are you talking about>? WHat do you mean by all this>? questioning and fighting against what>?!

False belief. Wake up.

Implies the possibility that her belief system is real, and there is a place where the dead's soul travels to, with gates and makers and etc.

This implies MJK is agnostic, accepting that heaven may be real and jesus may be god junior.

or, perhaps, that it's as real as anything else is and, as his mother's source of inspiration and strength, the proper place from which to present this eulogy.

Not 'and'...ONLY. Its as real as anything else ONLY as his mother's internal source of inspiration.

To add say that it is actually, externally real, which Maynard does, is either exploitation cloaked as 'poetic license' if he doesnt believe it, or he actually does believe it exists (or may exist).

Your capacity for ignorance and contradiction and sheer thick-skulledness should come as no surprise this far into this thread, yet still I'm baffled by how you could type this and not realise how much crap you're talking.

By exploring the possibility that he is wrong, by displaying the capacity to explore the beliefs of others Maynard is fighting ignorance. Ignorance stems largely from failing to question your own assumptions and beliefs. Sound familiar?

There is nothing cynical or false about this song. Maynard is paying tribute to his mother by using the imagery and language of her beliefs. If Maynard were to be given the task of fashioning her memorial or grave stone, do you think he'd inscribe esoteric symbols all over it, or would he give it a cross and maybe an angel, in keeping with her beliefs?

When you're old enough to figure out the difference between describing someone elses beliefs, and agreeing with someone elses belief, post again.

IT'S SO AMAZING TO ME, THAT ONCE AGAIN (AND WITH EVERY TOOL or APC RELEASE), MAYNARD'S ATTITUDE AND OUTLOOK AND MY OWN ARE ONE IN THE SAME. (THAT'S JUST ONE OF THE 11 MILLION REASONS I'M SO OBSESSED WITH THIS BAND.) I JUST BURIED MY GRANDFATHER WHOM WAS "MY WITNESS, MY EYES, EVIDENCE." THROUGH THAT EXPERIENCE AND COULTLESS HOURS OF MEDITATION, I HAVE RECENTLY STARTED GOING BACK TO CHURCH. THOUGH I HAVE MY ISSUES WITH EVERY RELIGION I'VE STUDIED, THERE IS WISDOM IN THE HOUSE OF GOD, MUCH LIKE THE WISDOM WE ARE SO LUCKY TO RECEIVE FROM OUR FRIEND MAYNARD, WHOM IS CONSIDERED A PROPHET IN MY PERSONAL RELIGION....
THINK FOR YOURSELF....

I AM WIDE AWAKE AND HEADED HOME.

My thought continued, didn't it?
You put a period where there wasn't one... a good indicator of your ability (or willingness) to think past a certain point on this topic.
It seems that your mentality might be at odds with the nature of this subject.
You don't see this in yourself, of course, because of related limitations.

he simply hopes for her self fulfillment

He hopes there is a Jesus parachute to rescue his momma?

Thats pathetic.

If he doesn't really hope that, its exploitating her death for poetic license.

Maybe:

He is not exploiting her death for poetic license. He is exploiting poetic license for a song about her death. He is making that song more of a celebration, a tribute to her, by largely excluding the opinion that he doesn't share her beliefs. His opinion is not important, her memory is. He has respect for that, understand?

However, and more importantly:

We don't know his opinion. You don't know it, I don't know it. Neither of us have had a discussion with him about what this song means to him and what he would consider to be honest in it and what he would consider to be left out of it. Maybe he really does hope for her to find a place in the heaven she spoke of. Maybe he hopes for this even without believing it. Maybe he hopes his belief is wrong. Maybe he believes she will find a peaceful, heaven like place, but more of a design that he believes than one that she did. I don't see any of this as pathetic.

Or all of that could be totally wrong, who are we to judge?

You are screening yourself onto everything you see in him. All of your experiences are dictating your judgement of what this song means. It can be very difficult to observe something without projecting onto it all of your past experience and ideas about it. But to view it properly, wholly and as truthfully as it is, one needs to discard all of that baggage. It is possible that there is another answer, another reason other than "jesus parachute" or "exploitation", but when much of your experience finds those things occuring often in similar situations then it is easy to see them in a new situation. Each new experience must be observed in and of itself and without all the memories and "knowledge" that has been aquired previously. Then one can see the truth of what is revealed. Of course in a situation like this, listening to the words of a song, that does not mean we will get the truth of the singer, just the truth of the words he chooses to use.

Some interesting thoughts in this thread.. hmm.

... can i just say... (peh, obviously i can, cuz i am) i dont beleive in religion, not at all, the whole idea seems so unbeleivably rediculous and far fetched, that im amazed anyone could put any stock in religion. BUT, at the same time, i hope, i really hope, that im wrong. That there is something after death, i dont beleive it, but id hope there is... otherwise myself, my freinds etc. and all those people who devote themselves and their lives to religion, have wasted all the life they have, which'd frankly suck... and makes me feel all depressed, heh.

I think, that perhaps maynard is doing the same kind of thing. He may not think theres a heaven or anything, but hopes for his mothers sake there is. That certainly borders on hypocracy, but i dont think it quite crosses the line. Whateva it is, tis still a pretty fuckin awesome song

Wow! What an amazing discussion this is! Its a testament to the true nature of great music - to make us think, to rouse our spirits, to make us vehement on some point or another. This is beautiful guys! I'm new here and happy to have found all of you.
What's happening here is that the poor original "hypocrite" poster was viewing this piece as something that can be viewed as black and white. Tools music is far too real, too complex, too magnificent to have this done to it.
You cannot attempt to analyse this music by using traditional "good" and "bad". Look at the picture on the cover of 10,000 days! It emulates the Hindu statue - where the face of Brahma what transcends the duality of our reality: the faces to either side are "good" and "bad", "black" and "white", "male" and "female", "cynic" and "sincere".
In my humble opinion, what makes this work a masterpiece is that it touches the very face of Brahman. And this discussion certainly proves it.
All said, Tool is a group of brilliant individuals and Maynard will stand in his proper place in Literary history as one of the world's brilliant poets. As evidenced by the brilliance and passion of his fans!
Happy to be one of you! Lets discuss it further!!! YEEHAAA!

The song is not written as what he hopes for, but if he knows its untrue, he cannot hope it is true...unless his belief is invalid, which would make his entire belief-system invalid.

If MJK cannot be open and honest in his most emotional, personal song, then his viewpoints are invalid.

If he decides to exploit his own mothers death to put forth to the world a viewpoint that he does not even believe, than this is equally pathetic.

most of threads ive read that you started, doesnt really sound like your a tool fan, and dont really like much of the band, "Adam ruined a song" "MJK doesnt believe in this, so he can sing about it"...........please leave if your gonna start shit

C'mon dude, are you for real? Do you hear yourself when you speak? Are you actually disappointed because your expectations of how this man should express his feelings about his mother's death may have not been met - not up to your standards?

Has the thought occurred to you that your unabating cynical insinuations and "what if " scenarios are amounting to something more than a lame analysis: that you have stepped into the territory of shitting on a man's grief about the death of his mother via your pathetic and ever-morphing defence of your pocket-intellectual ramblings on this subject?

You've gone from fool to ingrate in record speed

Discovery, friends. Discovery is all we strive for. Not a soul can be wrong here and that fact should have built a wall before all of our hostilities. Take in this art that we collectively love and be civil for everyone's sake. I realize the root fueling this intense speculation but, whatever we may find is not going to change Keenan's original outlook on his composition (some seem to want to establish some sort of totalitarian train of thought even if it means disowning Keenan's own purpose in writing his lyrics). It is said and done. Even more reason not to take these ideas so fervently. Convene and discover, but do not condemn in the process.

He's saying that if there is a god up there, and everything that his Mother believed is true, then let him (God) treat his Mother in death as she believed she would be treated.

What's wrong with writing about that?

Submachine is actually a lot better than he used to be...he used to just insult people when they didn't agree with his viewpoint. Now he discusses properly...this he something he should be complimented for.

neither do I. agreed

Tho it's been said close to fifty times so far, the point of the soing is not what he feels or cares about. The point is he is writing a song for and about a person he cared for and loved deeply. The belief system has absolutley nothing to do with it. He wrote about his mother, a women who could be singularly described as religious. He can not and would not separate her from what she loved and believed in, and to do so what sully her name, regardless of what he feels. THIS IS NOT MAYNARD SINGING ABOUT MAYNARD. I suppose that sums it up.

WHAA??? Perhaps i misunderstand what you are saying... if not, sit down, it'll muffle your voice.

Ok first, u say he can not hope something is true, if he KNOWS it isnt. Nobody fully KNOWS what the go is with god. Because nobody knows why the fuck we exist, or for that matter, why the fuck there is an existance. You can BELEIVE something, but in this case no one KNOWS anything, and if they think they do they're and arrogant git. You can hope something you beleive in is wrong, i know, cuz i do it all the time. I THINK, the world is going to shit, and i beleive it'll probably end sometime soon, doesnt mean i hope that will happen does it?

Secondly, if he cant be open and honest in his most emotional and personal song, then his veiw points are invalid. Where do i start... if he isnt open and honest, then he isnt really bearing himself to anyone or anything, and isnt really putting any emotion into it (there aint really that much true emotion in fabrication). That would make this song unemotional, and not open... got yaself a nice paradox thingamy there.

And if some how what you said made any sense... how the fuck does that make his beleif system invalid??? WTF do you even mean by that??!! Because he isnt true to fans, who he doesnt know, or probably give a shit about, he's beleifs are false... not making much sense bud.

And why would anyone exploit anything, let alone the death of their mother, to put across a veiw they dont beleive in? If he was doing that, it makes him crazy, stoned or just plain stupid, as well as pathetic.

its a song...maynard knows the reason. who are you to question his thoughts on the topic of religion or his mother. Submachinegun, its his song. His lyrics, his life and passion. Let him write it and sing it. You just shut your mouth and listen to it. Who are you to judge maynard or his work?

hmmm

judgeing from your posts and your username and post count (no offense to some who have well meaningful posts) and the like...you seem to be someone that doesn't like the fact that songs and music doesn't conform to the way your mind works and unwilling to open your mind to the world of change or non understanding. un top of that, i can sense that you seem to be a person has way to much time on his hands and maybe those hands should be...well...umm...cause you don't seem to have time to have a person of the opposite sex...or the same sex pleasure you. So please sit back, turn on the song, and take a ride on a 6 inch...(pun)

don't mean to double post but

submachinegun...

do you believe in god? why or why not? If you do...then why do you believe? If you don't....why don't you?


The point is, ITS YOUR FUCKING BELIEF! Not ours or mayanrds...its your mind and your life.

so let maynard have his.

for the record of my own thoughts of a somewhat diffrent subject

submachinegun = slicknickshady...

????? '_'

I expect nothing more than truth and honesty, and I would expect this even more so when the song involves the death of a loved one.

Instead?

We get a treatise about the afterlife.

Does he believe it? Half the people think he does, which would make his beliefs (and previous statements) contradictory and bullshit.

Half the people think he does not, which would make the song bullshit...or cynical.

Submachine, you seemingly have poor comprehesion skills and an inablity to see beyond on your own opinion. Good luck with that.

Yes, i think our submachine fellow is a bit of a gad fly... but his apparent inability to grasp anything beyond high school has rallied quite a bit of appreciation from those of us who are a bit more open minded... so even though I'd love to slap him upside the head, I am content not to!!
I don't know Maynard's mind personally, but I do know his music - and it strikes me that whether he knows it or not - Maynard doesn't believe or disbelieve in anything - his beef with Organized Religion and Dogma seem perfectly natural for someone who is on an honest quest for the truth and who is dedicated to understanding.
The acts the narrator of this song requests Marie to perform are not those of a true believer in Christianity. No Christian expects to bang at the pearly gates and demand their wings nor would they request an immediate audience with the Holy Trinity!! So, the narrator's viewpoint on christianity is kinda both ways at the same time.... Brahma... transcendent...
In reality, Submachine, there is nothing more honest... most of us want to say we're on one side or the other... but it reality we're on both at the same time - that is, if we are honest and truthful with ourselves...

Thats one possibility.

Thats the second possibility.

The third possibility is he actually does believe that his mothers soul flew up to the gates of heaven.

Its a lose lose lose situation for his credibility.

I'm sorry to hear about your loss.

From experience, I agree with what you are trying to say.
When you lose a parent, it really changes your perception of how you relate to the world.
It's almost the oppostie of having a child. (or having Love born into your world through another person)
As your relative position is rearranged, new insights into the workings of this mad mad world are unveiled to you. The connections in the cycle were there all along, now you are more ready to read them.
The permanence of such experience can not be understated.

He doesn't does he? He just wants to see what he wants to see. *sigh*