As the first to post agreement to Black's idea, it's been awhile since I've been here but I wanted to add to what's been said so far.
I've changed my view on the meaning of this song.
Jung's theory is an entirely plausible one, although I've never read that book by Bob Frisell. Of the two, it's the one with the more precise explanation, listing in concrete terms the exact meaning of the numbers "46" and "2".
Black's theory (and mine) also seems perfectly valid, as well. 30 years plus 46 years and 2 months would be about right for an average American male's life expectancy. Both theories fit in well with the concept of change, of growth, of making your life and your personal being better to benefit the remaining years you have left on this earth.
Since I first wrote that post though, I've noticed something that Maynard does very often in Tool songs; he has an avid propensity for double entendres. I haven't compiled a list yet, but I've seen it over and over again - lyrics and even album names that can be taken either of two ways or meant to mean two things at once. Alternately, he'll write a line of lyric that uses two quotes or sayings merged together to form some new, third meaning, or none at all.
With that in mind, I now think that it's very likely that MJK had BOTH explanations in mind as he wrote the song. It would fit in perfectly with his writing style.
Anyway, tell me what you think... could I be on to something here?
Anyway, tell me what you think... could I be on to something here?
You could be on to the fact that he writes lyrics layered with more than one meaning. No offense, but isn't that exactly what everybody's been saying since they started?
__________________ "WITHOUT A LITTLE EVIL, GOOD WOULD NEVER EXIST"
I didn't really come away with that from this thread. It just seemed like everyone was mainly fixated on it having to mean one thing or the other, and I wanted to openly suggest that it could in fact be both, since that would be a very Maynard thing to do.
Anyway, no offense taken... I'll go back and re-read the thread. If anyone had actually talked about the possibility of both meanings intended, I must have missed it.
Anyway, no offense taken... I'll go back and re-read the thread. If anyone had actually talked about the possibility of both meanings intended, I must have missed it.[/QUOTE]
I had mentioned that when talking about the scientific aspect, (the life expectancy), Maynard put more emphasis on the personal growth meaning than the actual life expectancy, but one could argue both parts depending what stands out more to that person listening.
That's one of the best qualities of this song, other than the musical, which is simply awesome.
__________________ "When a man lies, he murders some part of the world." - Merlin, from Excalibur
It is common for Maynard to use a scientific/philosophical theory or some abstract image or idea as a metaphor or symbol of what he is trying to communicate through the song. I think that nearly everyone on this thread agrees that the song is about personal growth and achieving a higher level of happiness, self-actualization, enlightment, etc. I think that he is simply using the theories of Jung and "the 46&2 guy" (forgot his name, and don't care because his science is shoddy) as a vehicle to express his message about personal growth.
__________________ We make up horrors to help us cope with the real ones...
I always thought that 46&2 was about going to the next level and finding something better and getting over the hard parts in life...but never really understood the 46&2 part. So I raped google for the answer and it really depends what kinda of mood I'm in, if I want to really think about the meaning, I can, but, usualy I just listen without putting meaning to it.
OK.....this is a direct copy-and-paste from the FAQ, right? And the FAQ explaination was commented upon by me further up. Where did this theory come from? It did NOT come from Maynard or from the band. It came from someone else, sifting through ideas, trying to explain the song.
As such, it has no more validity, and can be accepted as no more correct than any other theory, right? That's what I said earlier in this thread. Why has it been blindly accepted? Repeating the theory does in not way make it more complelling.....at least not in my eyes. Just because someone pasted it to the FAQ doesn't mean it was right to begin with, does it?
Furthermore, I find no evidence (as also stated earlier) that there are "three kinds of humans". I've been researching this for a long time. There is no scientific evidence I have been able to locate to substatiate this claim. In fact, the Tool FAQ is the ONLY place I have ever read such. If someone could substantiate this idea with some greater form of evidence, perhaps I would have to concede the point and shut up.........but so far, all I have is a reguritation of the same basic theory. Drunvalo Melchizadek aside--there is no evidence to back up what is said in this threory. It seems nothing more than blind speculation at this point.
Repeating it does not make it any more valid.
http://www.drunvalo.net/bio.html
I don't find anything concerning this guy that persuades me that he holds the answers to the enigmatic title of this song.
Black
wow, you say you hate "internet arguing"but you are sure quick to it which disgusts me
In this song Tool is temporarily taking the "belief" of the 46 & 2 "theory" just like in several songs on the new album they do the same thing with Christianity. Not much in a tool song is literal, you should know that by now ;) I do think this song has much more literality(?) than most and your on the right track regarding the other stuff though. In TOOL's live concerts from the 10,000 days tour there are several images clearly relating to evolution displayed during 46 & 2.
i agree with K1DA and all others with the chromosome theory... it's both i think... some of the most dominate lyrics in the song are "in my shadow, my shadow, change is coming through my shadow"... so it makes me think "ok... the shadow" is maynard referring to the decrease in light that is cast due to our physical bodies being between the light and whatever the shadow is cast on? maybe... but when i hear the force in his voice when he says "shadow" continuously i think of the shadow compartment of the psyche... that little part of the mind that holds all of our dirtiest secrets... this is the part of the mind that we must face and "step through" and "come out the other side" in order to reach true enlightenment... so then you throw in the chromosome theory in there... well that whole thing, as true as it sounds and may be, is very tangible... a little too tangible for the deep thinking realms of tool... because we can't tangibly manifest two extra chromosomes and evolve into whatever is next... i think it's about getting through all the dirtiness of your mind... all the hate, greed, malice, jealousy, etc... get through all of that... see it... own it... take responsibility for it... pass through it...
"See my shadow changing,
Stretching up and over me.
Soften this old armor.
Hoping I can clear the way
By stepping through my shadow,
Coming out the other side.
Step into the shadow.
Forty six and two are just ahead of me."
by saying step "into" the shadow i think relates to dealing with all of the negatives in your past and present... you were and presently are in a state of 46-ness... as is every physical body on earth... but to come out on the other side or transform into 48-ness(46&2) one must pass through the shadow... there is no way around it... it's a straight path...
i think maynard has come to grips with what is going on... mentally... in the first two albums he's obviously angry and venting all of the things that have angered him in the past... so one could break down the albums according to the parts of the psyche... so there is the persona, ego, anima(or shadow), self(center)...(i think that's right... correct me if i'm wrong) so, opiate is the persona... undertow is ego... aenima is anima(or shadow)that one is very literal don't you think??? lateralus and 10000 days are at the self(or center)...
i always found lateralus very mechanical and safe... not to demean the music in any way(reflection is my favorite song) i just mean that every thing is very precise like it's a lesson just learned and fresh in the bands mind... everything is dead on... almost like they were reborn... and 10000 days is a continuation of that... after all, the last song of 10000 days is viginti tres... i read somewhere that that is latin for 23... well it's not the 23 song on the album... unless you put the two albums(lateralus and 10000 days) together... which in that case there are 24 songs... so viginti tres is the 24th song... but called 23? maybe it's an equation... all songs leading up to it are 23 songs... so maybe it's not saying it's the 23rd of something, but rather that it is the end of an equation where 23 is the conclusive answer??? maybe...
anyway i've rambled for too long... any comments are welcome...
i agree with K1DA and all others with the chromosome theory... it's both i think... some of the most dominate lyrics in the song are "in my shadow, my shadow, change is coming through my shadow"... so it makes me think "ok... the shadow" is maynard referring to the decrease in light that is cast due to our physical bodies being between the light and whatever the shadow is cast on? maybe... but when i hear the force in his voice when he says "shadow" continuously i think of the shadow compartment of the psyche... that little part of the mind that holds all of our dirtiest secrets... this is the part of the mind that we must face and "step through" and "come out the other side" in order to reach true enlightenment... so then you throw in the chromosome theory in there... well that whole thing, as true as it sounds and may be, is very tangible... a little too tangible for the deep thinking realms of tool... because we can't tangibly manifest two extra chromosomes and evolve into whatever is next... i think it's about getting through all the dirtiness of your mind... all the hate, greed, malice, jealousy, etc... get through all of that... see it... own it... take responsibility for it... pass through it...
"See my shadow changing,
Stretching up and over me.
Soften this old armor.
Hoping I can clear the way
By stepping through my shadow,
Coming out the other side.
Step into the shadow.
Forty six and two are just ahead of me."
by saying step "into" the shadow i think relates to dealing with all of the negatives in your past and present... you were and presently are in a state of 46-ness... as is every physical body on earth... but to come out on the other side or transform into 48-ness(46&2) one must pass through the shadow... there is no way around it... it's a straight path...
i think maynard has come to grips with what is going on... mentally... in the first two albums he's obviously angry and venting all of the things that have angered him in the past... so one could break down the albums according to the parts of the psyche... so there is the persona, ego, anima(or shadow), self(center)...(i think that's right... correct me if i'm wrong) so, opiate is the persona... undertow is ego... aenima is anima(or shadow)that one is very literal don't you think??? lateralus and 10000 days are at the self(or center)...
i always found lateralus very mechanical and safe... not to demean the music in any way(reflection is my favorite song) i just mean that every thing is very precise like it's a lesson just learned and fresh in the bands mind... everything is dead on... almost like they were reborn... and 10000 days is a continuation of that... after all, the last song of 10000 days is viginti tres... i read somewhere that that is latin for 23... well it's not the 23 song on the album... unless you put the two albums(lateralus and 10000 days) together... which in that case there are 24 songs... so viginti tres is the 24th song... but called 23? maybe it's an equation... all songs leading up to it are 23 songs... so maybe it's not saying it's the 23rd of something, but rather that it is the end of an equation where 23 is the conclusive answer??? maybe...
anyway i've rambled for too long... any comments are welcome...
Thanks for sharing all this vast information which we've all been meticulously discussing for years already. You're a light reflection of information but, I'll have to tell ya'..yours is quite dim.
__________________ "WITHOUT A LITTLE EVIL, GOOD WOULD NEVER EXIST"
no reason to refer to me as dim... sorry if i'm not a vehement level 10... so i haven't gone back and read the past 6 years of posts as to not repeat anything... didn't mean to offend thee... i'm new to the forum, obviously, and it's pretty shitty of you to bash me because of it... i appreciate the acknowledgment of having similar thoughts... but don't call it dim... and isn't that what everyone is doing here? isn't that the point of this??? to present, discuss, agree and disagree with each other... all i'm doing is giving my feedback to the song... so what if it's already been said... that shouldn't bother you...and if it does, that's your problem... don't try and seem superior using maynards lyrics... "You're a light reflection of information but"... who says that in normal conversation??? no one... or someone plagiarizing... trying to sound more intelligent than they actually are... now look... i've gone and increased the size of the snowball... oh well... let's let it roll if we must...(you can use that as ammo if you would like... i'm sure you will)
no reason to refer to me as dim... sorry if i'm not a vehement level 10... so i haven't gone back and read the past 6 years of posts as to not repeat anything... didn't mean to offend thee... i'm new to the forum, obviously, and it's pretty shitty of you to bash me because of it... i appreciate the acknowledgment of having similar thoughts... but don't call it dim... and isn't that what everyone is doing here? isn't that the point of this??? to present, discuss, agree and disagree with each other... all i'm doing is giving my feedback to the song... so what if it's already been said... that shouldn't bother you...and if it does, that's your problem... don't try and seem superior using maynards lyrics... "You're a light reflection of information but"... who says that in normal conversation??? no one... or someone plagiarizing... trying to sound more intelligent than they actually are... now look... i've gone and increased the size of the snowball... oh well... let's let it roll if we must...(you can use that as ammo if you would like... i'm sure you will)
..lmao, or perhaps you misunderstood what my "dim" comment meant. I meant it metaphorically as in the farther you are from a light source, the dimmer it is to the naked eye. Not dim as in dumb, just that you're way behind on the subject matter. Wasn't necessarily meant as a deragatory statement. And just FYI, I hardly ever quote lyrics, I find it rather lame myself unless I deem it fits that conversation. Plagiarism? Nah, just paying tribute...I guess.
__________________ "WITHOUT A LITTLE EVIL, GOOD WOULD NEVER EXIST"
ok... cool... off of this subject for a minute... since you have been around for a long time and are familiar with the forum... i have a question for you... not about 46&2 but about schism... i was looking through the posts and found nothing about schism being a clue for rearranging the order of the songs on lateralus... i heard about this quite a while ago and am surprised it's not mentioned anywhere there... of course i could be overlooking it... i have a tendency to skim... anyway, i'd love to know if it's been discussed here and get in on it and if it hasn't, why??? peace, man...
This is an interesting thread, I never thought of Forty-Six & 2 in that way before.
Schism being a clue for rearranging the order of songs? Shit, I thought it was about Tetris, lol (There are threads about that!). Just joking...but seriously, you should make a thread in the proper section about that. I doubt that it's true though.
ok so i went ahead and made a thread about it before searching to see if others had talked about it before... so i rambled on for paragraphs and paragraphs... and then searched it... yeah not too smart... oh well, at least i know about it now and what others know... i guess that's good... for me...
ok... cool... off of this subject for a minute... since you have been around for a long time and are familiar with the forum... i have a question for you... not about 46&2 but about schism... i was looking through the posts and found nothing about schism being a clue for rearranging the order of the songs on lateralus... i heard about this quite a while ago and am surprised it's not mentioned anywhere there... of course i could be overlooking it... i have a tendency to skim... anyway, i'd love to know if it's been discussed here and get in on it and if it hasn't, why??? peace, man...
It's the first I've heard of the "revised" track order being within Schism. You can read more about it here--> http://www.bofe.org/overthinking.htm
It is pretty cool to do but depending on your media player, you will need to be able to edit the silence in between the songs in order for it to really work the right way.
__________________ "WITHOUT A LITTLE EVIL, GOOD WOULD NEVER EXIST"
Black, you may be the smartest player around. It's refreshing to read a take from someone who appreciates science as much as I do, and does away with all the nonsensical bs.
I've also felt the "extra 2 chromosomes = higher consciousness" take to be INCREDIBLY weak. And it for sure sounds like something some obscure tool fan pulled out of their ass and ran with. But, I don't want to be too quick to accept the age thing either. It just doesn't seem like... idk. It's not a bad idea per se, but I can't see it being a strong enough idea for Maynard to write a song about it.
One thing I always found interesting is the way the title is stylized. "46" is written in alphabetical grapheme, the 2 is written numerically, and the "and" is an ampersand. In the context of the chromosomal hypothesis, 46 is written that way to distinguish itself from the 2 that are ahead of him. That's pretty much as far as I can take it though. Just playing devil's advocate.
Ok. I'm moving on to pepper my wisdom dandruff upon the flea peons I call my friends.
