I'm not exactly sure how the excessive veneration of this CD, (Lateralus), came to be. At this point, I'm convinced that Tool could wrap a piece of shit in tin foil and 2/3ds of the fans would be swarming Ebay to analyze its secret meaning and geometrical innuendo. Let alone eat it.
I'm going to ignore all the "spiritual enlightment" crap that people supposedly attain from this album for the time being, and cut to an analysis that actually has some objective purpose in a forum that is all about "what the song means to me." I'm so sick of hearing all this prententious bullshit about how Tool's music is only for the "intelligent" crowd and how people who liked Aenima/Undertow/Opiate better than Lateralus are generally just meathead junkies who didn't have the grand sophistication to grasp at its"deeper meaning." Get over yourself.
Lateralus is technically superior to its predecessors. The drums, acoustics, guitars... everything is generally improved upon on a purely technical level. But better technical aspects do not necessarily make for a better album all around, and the technical excellence displayed in Lateralus is unfortunately so contrived, so overcalculated, and ultimately so excessive that it consumes the musical heart and soul of an album that had the potential to be a masterpiece. It appears that Carey and Chancellor were so bent on creating ridiculous "patterns" and special time sigs in their music that the real message of the album is completely lost. Which is sad, because Tool is such an awesome band with such raw talent that they didn't need to TRY and make the music complex.
The title song of the album, "Lateralus," is a perfect example of this. The lyrics have absolutely NO relevance to the way that Maynard sings them or to the mood or pace of the song. Maynard drones, "Overanalyzing separates the body from the mind," and yet the entire song is a monument of overanalyzing and overcalculating time signatures and rhythm. It's at points like these when you KNOW that Tool got a bit prententious. The music feels so utterly forced that it's hard to listen to: Like Maynard wrote some lyrics and Carey wrote some drum lines that sounded good and they somehow tried to fuse them together. Which isn't surprising because this is exactly how Lateralus was created. The music just doesn't have the same feel as an album like Aenima where the lyrics and music flow, ebb, and build perfectly. How does Maynards endless, dare I say, Perfect Circle, droning have any relevance to what he is saying?
I know if I get flacked down for anything in this post it's going to be for this next comment. Lateralus fails to build in the same way that Aenima and Undertow do. Songs in Lateralus build and build and build... but the climaxes, if there are any, are weak, if not pathetic. In Lateralus we are brought up and up and the song builds to this perfect point where you expect Maynard to finally just SAY SOMETHING. Instead, we have to endure a lame, droning diatribe about how intuition is withering bla bla and overstructured drums by Carey. Again, it doens't feel natural, it feels FORCED. In Parabola we are swept up by Jone's guitars only to hear these "healing" soft lyrics by Maynard about how he is not alone. I can't emphasize enough how forced it is. The style does not fit the intended mood of the lyrics in any way you slice it. Every aspect of the album, lyrics included, are simply too long-winded and complex to fit together into a true masterpiece. This ultimately hurts the flow of the album too. It's a long, excessive, droning procession. You have to question whether it was meant as background music or as the food for thought Tool supposedly intended.
Now look at a song on Aenima like Eulogy. Here the music builds to a point and suddenly EXPLODES. You can feel the inspiration as Maynard screams and grunts, "So long, we wish you well.... not all martyrs see divinity but at least you tried." The guitars make sense. The base leads the music. The lyrics fit the way Maynard sings them, which is with intensity and raw inspiration. He actually sounds like he cares about what he wrote.
I don't want to completely bash Lateralus because if it is looked at separate from the rest of Tool's work it is still a damn good creation. I hear everybody when they say that they are tired of all the same music they hear on the radio or on MTV. But all this garbage about the secret innunedos in the music and how all of the drum patterns equal some sort of pentagram code that can only be fully understood by a complete spiritual and geometrical understanding of the Temple of Solomon: If Tool, or ANY band for that matter can't create a piece of music that communicates the intent of the authors without requiring special research then the music is failing to communicate. And that makes it bad music. People need to stop trying to ADD meaning when it isn't there and just accept and understand that what the band created: the SONG, should be enough. That's not to say that I believe people should be spoonfed music. Not at all. I just think people need to stop pretending there is all this ultra-deep bullshit meaning to a song like The Grudge. The lyrics are self-explanatory.
In any case, Lateralus pales next to the inspiration and raw feeling of Aenima or Undertow. In the end it will be songs like Sweat, Opiate, Prison Sex, Sober, Undertow, 4 Degrees, Stinkfist, Euology, H., Four-six and two, Push-it, Aenima, and Third-Eye that will be remembered, along with such satirical and humerous tracks as Eeir Von Satan. These are the tracks that will be remembered because they are inspired and carry a strong message. The excessive attention paid to detail in songs like The Grudge, Schism, and Parabola is not necessary in a band that already has enough focus, talent, and vision to create an inspired album without it.
I'm glad tool didn't make an album in the same contrast as aenema, it would be just going over old ground then. As far as all that soul searching shit, it's more to do with the fans building up the hype after hints are dropped on books they have or may not have read.
I personally love Lateralus but I listen to whatever I'm in the mood to listen to and Lateralus is on repeat most of the time. I wish I had some Alexandria X2 speakers to listen to it via a HDCD player but for now I can only dream about them.
Aenema is a fantastic album and will always be, but as the band grows, matures, evolves, whatever, and so does their music.
It's good to read your post, I liked it because I do feel it does ring true but the clarity on Lateralus just makes it better to listen to for me, although I wish Maynard had of followed through more on some songs such as Parabola where he sings Aliveeeeeeeeeeee I If he had of stretched it out abit more, that would of been nice. All in all I see your point but if I had a choice of taking one album with me, and only one it would be Lateralus.
I was a little unsure what to think of Lateralus, now I know.
__________________ Whoever we are, wherever we're from, we shoulda noticed by now, our behavior is dumb. And if our chances expect to improve it's gonna take a lot more than tryin' to remove the other race, or the other whatever, from the face Of the planet altogether.--Frank Zappa
For the most part, I agree with your post. I'd just like to comment on one part.
It's about the odd time sigs not sounding natural. I really do not agree with this. When I listen to Lateralus, there are very few moments when the music sounds forced. If you want to hear forced time sigs, listen to Dream Theater or Meshuggah. When I listen to those bands, I know right away that there's something quirky about the rhythm. When I first listened to The Grudge and The Patient, I didn't even realize that they were in 5/4 until I decided to count out the beats. The middle part of Schism is in 27/16 (which isn't really as odd as it might seem) but it flows beautifully.
Really, the only part of the album that sounds forced to me is the long interlude in Ticks & Leeches.
I disagree with you on every single count, but I admire you for having the balls to bash a Tool album with your first post.
With particulars I would like to point out that the songs on Lateralus don't climax because Tool mostly cut off the intro>build>build>build>build>climax>outro structure that dominates Aenima and some of Undertow. The pieces on Lateralus have dyamic arrangements that are entrancing in their own right, as a whole, even if they don't explode as big. When you look at a track like the studio recording of "pushit" on Aenima , it's 9 minutes of bullshit and an awesome climax. I love the song, but most of it exists so you can get pumped for the end (the live version is much more interesting). While there are some songs that fall flat on lateralus (tickes & leeches in particular, but also the patient to a degree), the tracks that fly are the best they've ever done.
__________________ "You donated to an animal cruelty organization in the middle of a hurricane. Fuck you."
When I listen to Lateralus, there are very few moments when the music sounds forced.
I agree: The music doesn't sound forced. That's part of the technical brilliance of Tool: They can integrate crazy time signatures and beat into their music and still make it sound beautiful.
My point was that the time signatures, for the most part, are unncessary and excessive. They strike of pretention, almost as though Tool was trying to live up to their "intelligent band" image by making the music as complex as possible. But the bottom line, I think, is that the complexity does not aid the music at all. It stifles the music. It seems like the band put complexity first over the message. Rather than as a medium to express Tool's ideas, the technical aspects in Lateralus force all other aspects of the album to bend and "fit in." But this just doesn't work, at least in my opinion. The technical aspects of a band provide the skeleton of the music: The MESSAGE iis at the heart. That's why jazz now days is such an esoteric genre. People are simply trying to outdo each other and play crazier and crazier and faster and faster to prove their technical worth. They forget the fact that technicality doesn't add up to a thing unless it's used to aid some sort of message. That's the point of art: To communicate. Which is why jazz genre like Cool and people like John Coltrane are favored over the RIDICULOUS stuff people like Victor Van Wuten pump out.
I'm not bashing Lateralus because the music or the lyrics are shitty. Some of the lyrics in Lateralus are obviously insightful and enigmatic, and I'm still trying to figure them out. I'm bashing Lateralus because the mood of the music does not match the message at all. The technical aspects of the album are contrived and excessive and stifle Tool's vibe.
I really dont think its right for us to judge TOOL's music, or even to judge anyone of their fans opinions. THe great thing about tool is they allow their fans to be open minded and come up with their own opinions, dont put people down just because u think ur smarter or ur opinion is better......"opinions are like assholes......everyone has one and most of em stink"
I really dont think its right for us to judge TOOL's music, or even to judge anyone of their fans opinions. THe great thing about tool is they allow their fans to be open minded and come up with their own opinions, dont put people down just because u think ur smarter or ur opinion is better......"opinions are like assholes......everyone has one and most of em stink"
I think you've missed something here. No one put anyone down on this topic, and to judge Tool's music is normal. it's just like judging your food, this tastes good that tastes bad. The only thing that made any sense to me was "open minded" which I agree with.
I'm not exactly sure how the excessive veneration of this CD, (Lateralus), came to be. At this point, I'm convinced that Tool could wrap a piece of shit in tin foil and 2/3ds of the fans would be swarming Ebay to analyze its secret meaning and geometrical innuendo. Let alone eat it.
Shut the fuck up. The fact that you don't care about some of the topics discussed on lateralus does not mean that it's wrong for others to do so. There is a wide variety of topics mentioned on the album, and there's nothing wrong with people choosing to look into them. There's also nothing wrong with people chooisng not to look into them, but it's fucking absurd to be so pretentious about the choice you made.
Quote:
Originally Posted by KKrist
I'm so sick of hearing all this prententious bullshit about how Tool's music is only for the "intelligent" crowd and how people who liked Aenima/Undertow/Opiate better than Lateralus are generally just meathead junkies who didn't have the grand sophistication to grasp at its"deeper meaning." Get over yourself.
What people are these? I've never met anyone wh said/felt anything like this. Please point one out here, if you can. Though I doubt you can.
Quote:
Originally Posted by KKrist
objective purpose
Quote:
Originally Posted by KKrist
Lateralus is unfortunately so contrived, so overcalculated, and ultimately so excessive that it consumes the musical heart and soul of an album that had the potential to be a masterpiece.
Quote:
Originally Posted by KKrist
It appears that Carey and Chancellor were so bent on creating ridiculous "patterns" and special time sigs in their music that the real message of the album is completely lost.
Quote:
Originally Posted by KKrist
It's at points like these when you KNOW that Tool got a bit prententious.
Quote:
Originally Posted by KKrist
The music feels so utterly forced that it's hard to listen to
Quote:
Originally Posted by KKrist
The music just doesn't have the same feel as an album like Aenima where the lyrics and music flow, ebb, and build perfectly.
Quote:
Originally Posted by KKrist
Lateralus fails to build in the same way that Aenima and Undertow do.
Quote:
Originally Posted by KKrist
Songs in Lateralus build and build and build... but the climaxes, if there are any, are weak, if not pathetic.
Quote:
Originally Posted by KKrist
we have to endure a lame, droning diatribe about how intuition is withering bla bla and overstructured drums by Carey.
Quote:
Originally Posted by KKrist
Again, it doens't feel natural, it feels FORCED.
Quote:
Originally Posted by KKrist
I can't emphasize enough how forced it is.
Quote:
Originally Posted by KKrist
The style does not fit the intended mood of the lyrics in any way you slice it. Every aspect of the album, lyrics included, are simply too long-winded
Quote:
Originally Posted by KKrist
It's a long, excessive, droning procession.
Quote:
Originally Posted by KKrist
If Tool, or ANY band for that matter can't create a piece of music that communicates the intent of the authors without requiring special research then the music is failing to communicate. And that makes it bad music.
Quote:
Originally Posted by KKrist
People need to stop trying to ADD meaning when it isn't there and just accept and understand that what the band created: the SONG, should be enough.
Quote:
Originally Posted by KKrist
In any case, Lateralus pales next to the inspiration and raw feeling of Aenima or Undertow. In the end it will be songs like Sweat, Opiate, Prison Sex, Sober, Undertow, 4 Degrees, Stinkfist, Euology, H., Four-six and two, Push-it, Aenima, and Third-Eye that will be remembered
Quote:
Originally Posted by KKrist
The excessive attention paid to detail in songs like The Grudge, Schism, and Parabola is not necessary
Quote:
Originally Posted by KKrist
I just think people need to stop pretending there is all this ultra-deep bullshit meaning to a song like The Grudge. The lyrics are self-explanatory.
Care to explain them?
Quote:
Originally Posted by KKrist
along with such satirical and humerous tracks as Eeir Von Satan.
That's not the name of the song, dumbshit.
I don't mind you bashing lateralus, but don't claim to do so objectively and then mention pretty much nothing but your subjective opinion regarding the album.
Well... I didn't all the follow-ups, so flame on... but I think Lateralus is, as you said, technichally superior. Danny does an absolutely superb job at drumming (maybe I'm slanted because I'm a drunmmer). I also agree that people might be over-analyzing the album, but that's what makes it great. The fact that people can listen to it and still come up with new interpretations, even 4+ years later, is astounding. That makes great art. If DaVinci or Van Gogh's paintings were simple, we wouldn't be talking about them today. Am I right?
On top of that, you should keep in mind that Danny, Adam, and Justin wrote all thier musical parts together while Maynard was on tour with APC. He didn't get to write lyrics until after the songs were created. I'm not saying that he had no say in how things went, but if you view it this way it makes sense: it's 4 seperate pieces in every song, coming together to make a whole; sometimes the pieces mesh, sometimes they don't. Find beauty in the dissonance...
Lateralus having no meaning to the lyrics... um, Lateralus isn't a word... so how could there be a mood or pace to it? Maynard sings the lyrics in a stylistic way, and he does so with the music... I guess I don't know what song you are listening to.
I'm not sure, but it doesn't sound like you have any musical background at all. I'm not saying I'm better than you in any respects, but if you actually understood the fundamentals that are going on, you wouldn't be so bored. All the build ups are perfect. Danny, even though you think his drumming is overstructured, plays amazing drumming parts/patterns. Half of the amazement is the fact that he actually came up with them, let alone played them in a song.
Obviously, Lateralus is different from Undertow, and Aenima (you forgot Opiate). That's what it was supposed to be. It was supposed to be special. Who wants 4 or 5 albums from a band that all sound the same? If you want that, then listen to Limp Biscut (sp? who cares). It's all about your mood. It seems like you were expecting another Aenima (that's what it seems like for most of the people who don't like Lateralus).
And your last comment about the "drum patterns equal some sort of pentagram code that can only be fully understood by a complete spiritual and geometrical understanding of the Temple of Solomon" is actually quite pathetic... Sorry I had to say that, and I don't want to flame. But seriously... Golden Sections are all over music and all over the world. Once again, it seems like you have absolutley no musical knowledge at all. A sunflower or a pine cone knows more than you just because there is a golden section on their faces (even though, you yourself are a bunch of golden sections). That's like saying you need to read ancient Egyptian to understand a James Brown song... it's simple music. 0.618... It's in everything. Just because Tool uses it a lot and in eccentric ways does not diminish its power or their creativity.
But enough of my psuedo-flaming, I have an album to listen to. Also, I'm not here to pursuade anyone of my opinion. That's for the birds. Figure shit out on your own. If you agree, then cool. If not, then cool. Reply, explain, understand.
Peace
__________________ "I was staring at the face of god,
but god wasn't staring back."
Last edited by davelisowski; 01-20-2005 at 03:25 AM..
Yeah I've found a lot of tool fans to over-analyse a lot of tool songs and take things a bit too far, but that's their choice and most of the time it's mainly newbs who are just getting into tool and less mainstream music that realise that lyrics to songs can have some little cryptic meaning.
And as SmallWangedMan said, most of aenima and undertow followed that formula. Songs that come to mind are 4 Degrees, Eulogy and Pushit, not saying it's a terrible thing, but it gets slightly boring after a while and Lateralus is a bit of fresh air.
I'm not sure, but it doesn't sound like you have any musical background at all. I'm not saying I'm better than you in any respects, but if you actually understood the fundamentals that are going on, you wouldn't be so bored. All the build ups are perfect. Danny, even though you think his drumming is overstructured, plays amazing drumming parts/patterns. Half of the amazement is the fact that he actually came up with them, let alone played them in a song.
Should we even be presupposing a meaning and then critiquing their method of delivery? All we have to ascertain the message is what they've given us.
Hahaha... so true. Critiquing the method of delivery at all, in my opinion, is worthless. One man's trash is another nation's treasure.
I try to not be a non-tool-supporter hater. Sometimes it just raises its head and wont go away until it has breathed fire.
Is there any question that geometry plays a role in their creations? Is there any question that Maynard is throwing us reasons, methods, and an example for us to teach ourselves? Is there any doubt that Tool can create music that is timeless, stretches across dimensions, and will outlive any other artist today? There shouldnt be. Why, when the band decides to make a spirally, geometric, spiritual, reflective record, is it so fucking god-awful? No, it isnt as heavy as AEnima, although the heavy parts are heavier, sound better, and mean more in the scope of the album. My favorite record is AEnima, due to personal experiences with it, but their best record is Lateralus. The last 4 songs are reason enough for the record to be the best. You (KK) talk about the end of Lateralus (the song) as a letdown? Then you have no idea what it represents and why it is there the way it is. Can I tell you? No. I can describe what it means for me, but not for you.
I'm just gonna stop until being provoked again. I cant stand pretentious people blaming others for being pretentious.
I'm going to give a general response to a few recent replies, and then I'm going to follow up by replying to a few people individually.
It seems a lot of people are having trouble understanding why I don't like all of the many wonderful "interpretations," of Lateralus. Here's my problem. Maybe you have heard of the two terms "exegesis" and "eisegesis. "If you haven't, I'm going to give a brief explanation of what they mean.
Exegesis refers to when a person interprets a communicable medium based on information actually found in the medium. For example, if I was to say that Eulogy had something to do with the pretentiousness and self-sanctity of martyrdom, I could support this statement with lyrics straight from the song. That is exegesis.
Eisgesis, in contrast, refers to the act of reading something into a communicable medium that isn't there. Eisgesis is everywhere today. It happens when people relate a poem, song, or other medium to a personal experience or perspective that isn't found anywhere in the music.
One good example of eisegesis is the common misinterpretation of Robert Frost's poem "The Road not Taken." Everyone seems to think that this poem is about how people have two paths they can take in life and that they should take the harder one, because in the end the harder one will bring better tidings. This is bullshit. Frost never says that any of the paths was more difficult, he says that they are "both worn about the same." He never says that taking the path he chose to take was any better, he just says it "made all the difference." Frost's poem is a practical joke. It was made to make uncanny readers believe it had some great metaphorical meaning. COULD Frost's poem have been about two paths in life? Maybe. Could it also have been about how the aliens must pick one of two spaceships to reach Earth safely? Possibly. But neither of these interpretations are rooted in the poem. They are just personal opinions based on personal experiences or ideas that are grafted onto the poem.
Which brings me to my point about Lateralus, and all music in general. There is WAY too much eisgesis floating around it. If every and any interpretation is fair game, then why the FUCK discuss the music? Why bother to analyze the music? Eulogy could be about my pet dog. He sure could yell. Reflection might be about a giant dildo. But it wouldn't matter anyway, because if we aren't looking to the music for guidance, these songs could be about ANYTHING.
Another point that Thrakandor rightly touched on: I don't give a shit what Maynard or the rest of Tool MEANT their music to mean. Where we meet Tool is at their MUSIC. If we are are just going assume that what Tool says about the music is what the music means., then there is NO POINT in listening to the music. There is no point in Tool making music if its just as good to hear them offer explanations of their philosophy. Maynard understands this, and this is why he doesn't spoonfeed his music to anyone. If Maynard says that Eulogy is about my dog, would you believe it? If Greenday told you there music was about epistemology, would you buy it? Sure, it's a good reference point to hear where the band is coming from. But ultimately the music takes on its own meaning when its out of the hands of the creators.
This is why interpreting the music with extreme discretion is so important. It is why we can't simply interpret things to be whatever we want them to be. A critique of Tool's music has to be rooted in the music, or else it is meaningless. We need to analyze the MEDIUM, not Tool, and not own feelings regarding the music.
MrMcPheezy: You're the kind of person who likes to go through a post, take a bunch of quotes out of context, and call it an argument. And that's fine. But I'm not going to explain all of my "subjective" comments because you are too lazy or deluded to read between the lines.
"The fact that you don't care about some of the topics discussed on lateralus does not mean that it's wrong for others to do so."
I never said anything about "topics discussed on lateralus." I said, as you so dilligently quotes yourself, that I couldn't understand how the "excessive veneration of Lateralus came to be." Maybe I need to clarify that. It means that I can't understand how blockheads like you blindly defend something. It means I don't understand why people are trying to make Tool into something it isn't.
"There is a wide variety of topics mentioned on the album, and there's nothing wrong with people choosing to look into them. There's also nothing wrong with people chooisng not to look into them, but it's fucking absurd to be so pretentious about the choice you made. "
I don't give a shit what you think is right and wrong.
"What people are these? I've never met anyone who said/felt anything like this. Please point one out here, if you can. Though I doubt you can."
I could easily, but I won't waste my time. Anyone who isn't deluding themselves would be albe to see it. There are plenty of examples on these boards. Just look at some of the "related links" under this thread. I'm not saying everyone is like this. I'm just saying that a good many people are.
"I don't mind you bashing lateralus"
Haha. You DO mind me bashing Lateralus, and that is the purpose of your entire post. Spare me your attempts to appear "fair" and "cordial."
"I'm not saying that he had no say in how things went, but if you view it this way it makes sense: it's 4 seperate pieces in every song, coming together to make a whole; sometimes the pieces mesh, sometimes they don't. Find beauty in the dissonance... "
I don't care whether it makes "sense" or not, or whether there is a reason that the music sounds contrived. The bottom line is that the music is contrived, and I'm listening to the music.
"Danny, even though you think his drumming is overstructured, plays amazing drumming parts/patterns. Half of the amazement is the fact that he actually came up with them, let alone played them in a song. "
"Maynard sings the lyrics in a stylistic way, and he does so with the music..."
"The fact that people can listen to it and still come up with new interpretations, even 4+ years later, is astounding. That makes great art. If DaVinci or Van Gogh's paintings were simple, we wouldn't be talking about them today. Am I right?"
Here's where I really don't agree with your post. DaVinci's and Van Gogh's paintings aren't "great art" because they are "complex," which is what you imply. They are great art because of the meaning that is inherent to them: The complexity merely AIDS this meaning. There are plenty of "complex" art pieces out there, and there is no shortage of super complex music. Most of it we have never heard of. My reference to jazz touched on this. But just because a music piece is complex does not make it good music. That's why most jazz now days is so boring. People are just trying to outdo each other without any attention being paid to the meaning of the music.
That's great that Danny came up with all these "amazing" paterns. It would have been even better though if they actually had something to do with the purpose of the music. Now here's a comment that's really subjective and speculative. I think that Danny was just trying to show off. I think that he wrote all of this mega complex music, and then tried to force it into places where it didn't belong because it really didn't fit anywhere else. My question is: Was this drumming really NECESSARY? Or was it just forced into the music to impress people who are well versed in the technical aspects of drumming, such as yourself? I don't have an answer to this question, I only have an opinion. I personally think the drumming is irrelevent and contrived. Maybe, due to your personal understanding of it, you see something more there. But as an average listener, I don't see how it has anything to do with what Tool is saying. It does not aid the music. It's purposeless. Danny, in my opinion, could have played something more simple and it would have been better.
As for Maynard's "style" of singing, here's one point that I can talk authoratitively on, because I've read the lyrics and I know what they mean, even if I am not familiar with their more "subtle" or "enigmatic" undertones. Maynard's style has NOTHING, and I mean absolutely NOTHING to do with the lyrics. In other words, when Maynard sings "overanalyzing separates the body from the mind," his delivery is completely irrelevent. How does Maynard's droning and "ohm"ing have anything to do with what he is saying? On Opiate, for example, when Maynard says, "He has needs, like I do, we both want... to rape you," the style that Maynard sings them with, with that gutteral tone of anger building up and then a release, coincides with the lyrics. If I were to say, "FUCK YOU YOU FUCKING ******," in a happy voice, would that make sense? No. And that's how I know Maynard's singing is contrived. Like you said, he was forced to make his lyrics fit in with the music, and they just don't. If he had had the leisure to sing them appropriately, I guarantee they would have been better.
"if you actually understood the fundamentals that are going on, you wouldn't be so bored. All the build ups are perfect."
That I'll concede that as a possibility. But merely as a listener, Lateralus is boring to me. There isn't as much raw energy as in Aenima, and certainly not as much as in Opiate or Undertow. Aenima to me was a good balance. It was structured, but the structure aided the purpose of the music.
"That's like saying you need to read ancient Egyptian to understand a James Brown song... it's simple music. 0.618... It's in everything. Just because Tool uses it a lot and in eccentric ways does not diminish its power or their creativity. "
You misunderstood me. I was actually paraphrasing Carey himself when I said that "you need to understand the geometry of the temple of solomon to understand our music." (Carey was talking about the upcoming album.) I think that's a load of shit. Maybe I'm just a lazy asshole, but if I have to understand the geometry of a fucking temple to appriciate an album, I'll pass. I don't give a shit if the music is "complex" or "enigmatic" if it doesn't say anything.
If you knew what a spiral sounded like, you would understand the structure at the end of Lateralus. If you knew what being made in His image sounded like you would understand how Reflection has distinct purpose and intent in its communication. Simply because you choose to not let it touch you in that manner is no reason to think that all others who do see things in the structures and rythms that you call complex are being pretentious about it. You see what you want to see, and let me do the same. It's interesting to hear your opinion, but you came in here attacking shit left and right in your first post. Excuse me for being a little irritated. What, you lurked for 4 months before you decided to join, and for the purpose of saying that you are sick of Tool fans? Please. It is your choice to not understand sacred geometry. Go ahead and pass. No one is stopping your ass.
Quote:
Originally Posted by paraflux in the thread about our favorite moment in any song
Triad, at the point where the music fades out and Danny starts his clock ticking while the guitars watch the seed start to grow, peeking out from behind a distant star.
You think discussing that interpretation in a public place is dangerous because it might not be what was meant? Really.
In the end it just fucking music and the members of the band ain't getting any younger, they've traveled the world several times, they've written about everything under the sun and beyond, so what if it feels contrived if you don't like it then don't listen, it's the same old shit over and over, if you don't like something your watching or listening to then switch off and go out side and catch some rays, it's not the end of the fucking world.
Complaining about the complainers again, then don't read the fucking post armz.
But I digress, I love Maynard, I love sports and yes people, I LOVE 7 OF 9.
...a piece of shit in tin foil and 2/3ds of the fans would be swarming Ebay to analyze its secret meaning and geometrical innuendo. Let alone eat it.
Whoa, whoa, whoa! There is a piece of shit wrapped in foil for auction on Ebay and you skimp on the details? Where's the link?! This I've gotta see! I mean, what color is the foil? Is it molded into any shape, like a swan for instance? How long is it? Did they show any of the inner surprise? What color was that? Baby green? Hangover black? Was it consistent or loose-stool? Was there any indication as to what the defecator had eaten, like corn or nuts? What was the initial asking price? AM I TOO LATE???
Wait a second... this IS the Toby Keith fansite, isn't it?
I think Tool's work, and their fans' insights, deserve a better analogy than shit wrapped in foil. Maybe that's just me.
Quote:
Originally Posted by KKrist
If Tool, or ANY band for that matter can't create a piece of music that communicates the intent of the authors without requiring special research then the music is failing to communicate. And that makes it bad music.
I's also take to fully understandin' music I listen to without havin' ta learn about things the faggy art types may'a picked up that I ain't! You wan' cher music to make me read? I ain't read for no reas'n whats'ever, and I ain't gonna stert now cause o' yer complex means o' expression! Makin' me think is total fuckin' bullshit! This faggy art crap where people with unique experience, influence, education, and outlook werk to fully reflect their passion 'n emotion, to the best the extent o' their knowledge'll allow, into a piece of work that will be around fer far long'r 'n them is a waste'r gol dern time! Git 'er done! Make yer money! YEEEEHAW!!!
Am I right, folks? 'member, ya ans'r no, yer no better 'n a card carry'n commie.
(Sorry... I've been reading lots of Mark Twain lately. I know that my colloquial southern style needs a lot of work, but the point stands. I happen to like the layered and complex detail in Tool's music, and Lateralus in particular, and tend to think of music that you can completely "get" without a hint of help is insanely shallow... but hey, to each his own.)
It's not that this music REQUIRES research, but its nice to know that there are artists who think enough of their fans to give them more than shallow mediocrity. If you want to delve deeper into it, you have the option... but you don't have to. No one is making you read fans' opinions. Yes, a lot of people go overboard, myself very much included, but I like the overboard opinions. They give me new angles to think from, and are each individually windows into the minds of the interpreters who bother to write their thoughts. Tool isn't the only thing that makes their music great; their fans' ever-eager minds can prove to be just as interesting. Please, stop trying to shut them up (except, of course, Cyanide Chryst... do whatever the fuck you can to shut his dumb ass up).
Location: Man, you shoulda listened to that one boobed chick.
Posts: 998
Bincount™: 680
Re: Lateralus: Contrived, excessive, boring
Quote:
Originally Posted by KKrist
I'm not exactly sure how the excessive veneration of this CD, (Lateralus), came to be. At this point, I'm convinced that Tool could wrap a piece of shit in tin foil and 2/3ds of the fans would be swarming Ebay to analyze its secret meaning and geometrical innuendo. Let alone eat it.
I'm going to ignore all the "spiritual enlightment" crap that people supposedly attain from this album for the time being, and cut to an analysis that actually has some objective purpose in a forum that is all about "what the song means to me." I'm so sick of hearing all this prententious bullshit about how Tool's music is only for the "intelligent" crowd and how people who liked Aenima/Undertow/Opiate better than Lateralus are generally just meathead junkies who didn't have the grand sophistication to grasp at its"deeper meaning." Get over yourself.
Lateralus is technically superior to its predecessors. The drums, acoustics, guitars... everything is generally improved upon on a purely technical level. But better technical aspects do not necessarily make for a better album all around, and the technical excellence displayed in Lateralus is unfortunately so contrived, so overcalculated, and ultimately so excessive that it consumes the musical heart and soul of an album that had the potential to be a masterpiece. It appears that Carey and Chancellor were so bent on creating ridiculous "patterns" and special time sigs in their music that the real message of the album is completely lost. Which is sad, because Tool is such an awesome band with such raw talent that they didn't need to TRY and make the music complex.
The title song of the album, "Lateralus," is a perfect example of this. The lyrics have absolutely NO relevance to the way that Maynard sings them or to the mood or pace of the song. Maynard drones, "Overanalyzing separates the body from the mind," and yet the entire song is a monument of overanalyzing and overcalculating time signatures and rhythm. It's at points like these when you KNOW that Tool got a bit prententious. The music feels so utterly forced that it's hard to listen to: Like Maynard wrote some lyrics and Carey wrote some drum lines that sounded good and they somehow tried to fuse them together. Which isn't surprising because this is exactly how Lateralus was created. The music just doesn't have the same feel as an album like Aenima where the lyrics and music flow, ebb, and build perfectly. How does Maynards endless, dare I say, Perfect Circle, droning have any relevance to what he is saying?
I know if I get flacked down for anything in this post it's going to be for this next comment. Lateralus fails to build in the same way that Aenima and Undertow do. Songs in Lateralus build and build and build... but the climaxes, if there are any, are weak, if not pathetic. In Lateralus we are brought up and up and the song builds to this perfect point where you expect Maynard to finally just SAY SOMETHING. Instead, we have to endure a lame, droning diatribe about how intuition is withering bla bla and overstructured drums by Carey. Again, it doens't feel natural, it feels FORCED. In Parabola we are swept up by Jone's guitars only to hear these "healing" soft lyrics by Maynard about how he is not alone. I can't emphasize enough how forced it is. The style does not fit the intended mood of the lyrics in any way you slice it. Every aspect of the album, lyrics included, are simply too long-winded and complex to fit together into a true masterpiece. This ultimately hurts the flow of the album too. It's a long, excessive, droning procession. You have to question whether it was meant as background music or as the food for thought Tool supposedly intended.
Now look at a song on Aenima like Eulogy. Here the music builds to a point and suddenly EXPLODES. You can feel the inspiration as Maynard screams and grunts, "So long, we wish you well.... not all martyrs see divinity but at least you tried." The guitars make sense. The base leads the music. The lyrics fit the way Maynard sings them, which is with intensity and raw inspiration. He actually sounds like he cares about what he wrote.
I don't want to completely bash Lateralus because if it is looked at separate from the rest of Tool's work it is still a damn good creation. I hear everybody when they say that they are tired of all the same music they hear on the radio or on MTV. But all this garbage about the secret innunedos in the music and how all of the drum patterns equal some sort of pentagram code that can only be fully understood by a complete spiritual and geometrical understanding of the Temple of Solomon: If Tool, or ANY band for that matter can't create a piece of music that communicates the intent of the authors without requiring special research then the music is failing to communicate. And that makes it bad music. People need to stop trying to ADD meaning when it isn't there and just accept and understand that what the band created: the SONG, should be enough. That's not to say that I believe people should be spoonfed music. Not at all. I just think people need to stop pretending there is all this ultra-deep bullshit meaning to a song like The Grudge. The lyrics are self-explanatory.
In any case, Lateralus pales next to the inspiration and raw feeling of Aenima or Undertow. In the end it will be songs like Sweat, Opiate, Prison Sex, Sober, Undertow, 4 Degrees, Stinkfist, Euology, H., Four-six and two, Push-it, Aenima, and Third-Eye that will be remembered, along with such satirical and humerous tracks as Eeir Von Satan. These are the tracks that will be remembered because they are inspired and carry a strong message. The excessive attention paid to detail in songs like The Grudge, Schism, and Parabola is not necessary in a band that already has enough focus, talent, and vision to create an inspired album without it.
i think someone needs a hug
__________________ SaMpSoN: I am not a communist. I may be a liar, a pig, an idiot, a communist, but definately not a porn star.
davelisowsky:
"Danny, even though you think his drumming is overstructured, plays amazing drumming parts/patterns. Half of the amazement is the fact that he actually came up with them, let alone played them in a song. "
"Maynard sings the lyrics in a stylistic way, and he does so with the music..."
"The fact that people can listen to it and still come up with new interpretations, even 4+ years later, is astounding. That makes great art. If DaVinci or Van Gogh's paintings were simple, we wouldn't be talking about them today. Am I right?"
Here's where I really don't agree with your post. DaVinci's and Van Gogh's paintings aren't "great art" because they are "complex," which is what you imply. They are great art because of the meaning that is inherent to them: The complexity merely AIDS this meaning. There are plenty of "complex" art pieces out there, and there is no shortage of super complex music. Most of it we have never heard of. My reference to jazz touched on this. But just because a music piece is complex does not make it good music. That's why most jazz now days is so boring. People are just trying to outdo each other without any attention being paid to the meaning of the music.
That's great that Danny came up with all these "amazing" paterns. It would have been even better though if they actually had something to do with the purpose of the music. Now here's a comment that's really subjective and speculative. I think that Danny was just trying to show off. I think that he wrote all of this mega complex music, and then tried to force it into places where it didn't belong because it really didn't fit anywhere else. My question is: Was this drumming really NECESSARY? Or was it just forced into the music to impress people who are well versed in the technical aspects of drumming, such as yourself? I don't have an answer to this question, I only have an opinion. I personally think the drumming is irrelevent and contrived. Maybe, due to your personal understanding of it, you see something more there. But as an average listener, I don't see how it has anything to do with what Tool is saying. It does not aid the music. It's purposeless. Danny, in my opinion, could have played something more simple and it would have been better.
I never said "complex." Complexity of art has relatively nothing to do with its lasting power. Interpretations are what do. BTW, Danny's drumming patterns on the other albums can be consider just as amazing. That's his trademark.
Peace.
__________________ "I was staring at the face of god,
but god wasn't staring back."
"I'm not saying that he had no say in how things went, but if you view it this way it makes sense: it's 4 seperate pieces in every song, coming together to make a whole; sometimes the pieces mesh, sometimes they don't. Find beauty in the dissonance... "
I don't care whether it makes "sense" or not, or whether there is a reason that the music sounds contrived. The bottom line is that the music is contrived, and I'm listening to the music.
"Danny, even though you think his drumming is overstructured, plays amazing drumming parts/patterns. Half of the amazement is the fact that he actually came up with them, let alone played them in a song. "
"Maynard sings the lyrics in a stylistic way, and he does so with the music..."
"The fact that people can listen to it and still come up with new interpretations, even 4+ years later, is astounding. That makes great art. If DaVinci or Van Gogh's paintings were simple, we wouldn't be talking about them today. Am I right?"
Here's where I really don't agree with your post. DaVinci's and Van Gogh's paintings aren't "great art" because they are "complex," which is what you imply. They are great art because of the meaning that is inherent to them: The complexity merely AIDS this meaning. There are plenty of "complex" art pieces out there, and there is no shortage of super complex music. Most of it we have never heard of. My reference to jazz touched on this. But just because a music piece is complex does not make it good music. That's why most jazz now days is so boring. People are just trying to outdo each other without any attention being paid to the meaning of the music.
That's great that Danny came up with all these "amazing" paterns. It would have been even better though if they actually had something to do with the purpose of the music. Now here's a comment that's really subjective and speculative. I think that Danny was just trying to show off. I think that he wrote all of this mega complex music, and then tried to force it into places where it didn't belong because it really didn't fit anywhere else. My question is: Was this drumming really NECESSARY? Or was it just forced into the music to impress people who are well versed in the technical aspects of drumming, such as yourself? I don't have an answer to this question, I only have an opinion. I personally think the drumming is irrelevent and contrived. Maybe, due to your personal understanding of it, you see something more there. But as an average listener, I don't see how it has anything to do with what Tool is saying. It does not aid the music. It's purposeless. Danny, in my opinion, could have played something more simple and it would have been better.
As for Maynard's "style" of singing, here's one point that I can talk authoratitively on, because I've read the lyrics and I know what they mean, even if I am not familiar with their more "subtle" or "enigmatic" undertones. Maynard's style has NOTHING, and I mean absolutely NOTHING to do with the lyrics. In other words, when Maynard sings "overanalyzing separates the body from the mind," his delivery is completely irrelevent. How does Maynard's droning and "ohm"ing have anything to do with what he is saying? On Opiate, for example, when Maynard says, "He has needs, like I do, we both want... to rape you," the style that Maynard sings them with, with that gutteral tone of anger building up and then a release, coincides with the lyrics. If I were to say, "FUCK YOU YOU FUCKING ******," in a happy voice, would that make sense? No. And that's how I know Maynard's singing is contrived. Like you said, he was forced to make his lyrics fit in with the music, and they just don't. If he had had the leisure to sing them appropriately, I guarantee they would have been better.
"if you actually understood the fundamentals that are going on, you wouldn't be so bored. All the build ups are perfect."
That I'll concede that as a possibility. But merely as a listener, Lateralus is boring to me. There isn't as much raw energy as in Aenima, and certainly not as much as in Opiate or Undertow. Aenima to me was a good balance. It was structured, but the structure aided the purpose of the music.
"That's like saying you need to read ancient Egyptian to understand a James Brown song... it's simple music. 0.618... It's in everything. Just because Tool uses it a lot and in eccentric ways does not diminish its power or their creativity. "
You misunderstood me. I was actually paraphrasing Carey himself when I said that "you need to understand the geometry of the temple of solomon to understand our music." (Carey was talking about the upcoming album.) I think that's a load of shit. Maybe I'm just a lazy asshole, but if I have to understand the geometry of a fucking temple to appriciate an album, I'll pass. I don't give a shit if the music is "complex" or "enigmatic" if it doesn't say anything.
Wow, you might as well break your tool cd's and go listen to your simple, soldout punk music. You have just made yourself look extremely stupid, I advise you to drown yourself with a suit of chicken in a pool of Great White sharks.
And before, you said, " I want to set aside that 'spiritual enlightenment crap' " The entire ablum was about spiritual enlightenment, and becoming a better person as a whole. Maynard said it himself (in a serious tone). Each song you can tell has a lot of reference to meditation, and gives you a feel of almost an out of body expirience. Although these are my opinions, I have shared them before and everyone has agreed with me.
And saying the word "******" automatically describes you as an idiot. The entire idea of racism is stupid. I'm going to stop here becasuse I don't want to get kicked off of the website.
Complex music shows effort and skill. You don't see punk bands doing anything more than two note power chords throughout the entire song. The metal bands screaming into the microphone constantly with guitarists playing open D chords. The whole "It sounds cool" thing is rediculous. It is mostly said by people with no musical background and it is funny to see them change. I started out thinking that Slipknots guitarist was the best thing that happened to music. LOL, man I feel embarrased to look at my old cd's and see shit like Blink 182, Something Coporate, and Disturbed. Blah
My point- Complex music shows how deep artists go. If they wanted to just make another couple million, they would do what everyone else does. But no, they are Tool. Their music is deep because they are expressing everything that they feel, and putting a ton of effort into making the music. Another reason for the complex beat is for the hypnotic effects, you never listen to tool without dazing of into some weird trance where you see and think things that you would never be able to think of normally.
Complexity = Depth
Depth= Meaningful
Meaningful= Good music
Pi= approx 3.14
I kind of gave up reading this; shocked, appalled and intimidated by the length. Hence i will say only this:
Mr Krist, knocking (in my opinion) Tool's best album and perhaps one of the most well produced records i've ever heard in one of your firsts post (or even your first, was it? HEY?) is an excessively foolish and flamboyantly dangerous thing to do. I have a knife.
__________________ for God is in the woodwork, and he isn't for the dreamers...
It's ok, Pers, I just got discharged from hospital. Respiratory arrest from laughing it being so funny and all. Ever thought about going into stand-up? There's a massive void out there just waiting for you to fill it...
__________________ for God is in the woodwork, and he isn't for the dreamers...
I think any sane person would agree that the chick in your avatar is fucking hott, and that the state you live in owns the fuck out of everywhere else.
