Further thoughts, looking at this in terms of symbolism what do each of the 5 elements represent or stand for? Sulfer seems to be the necessary ingredient for the pieces to fit. What about the number 5? I'm throwing these out for anyone to think about, I haven't gotten any solids idea yet but what relates to five elements, I know the # 5 has importance somewhere or another I just can't think of in what context.
In reply to the post above. Thats a good point its the only section of the title that contains 3 letters and its at the end of the word could this have any relation to Disp/Refl/Triad songs that are considered one. they to are at the end of the CD.
On a Different note. I would like to thank you all for the compliments on my theory. I was afraid to post it for a while because every theory I ever posted was torn to shreds and looked down on. You guys are great and im glad I have so much support with this theory. Thanks again
i found something that said "latetia (modern day paris)" which isn't that far from rennes but it's not right next to it.
i also found that tellurium, radium, and sulpher are mentioned on a lot of alchemy websites but not the others. none of them are really symbolical either, just literal.
Just so you guys know, the reason gold can't be "created" is because it's an element itself, as has been stated earlier. You can't create oxygen, or hyrdogen, or carbon, or sulfur, or any of the other elements either.
Originally posted by crow011 not lately . . . what about you? . . .
ive thought about social decay, and tooth decay . . .
ive also thought about getting somehing to eat . . .
peace and blessed be . . .
crow011 . . .
Crow? Of all people to get off topic I never thought it would be you! You are usually spewing full of intelligence. What happened? Its chaos here. Chaos I tell you!
no offense mark but i dont think radioactive decay has anything to do with.. anything =] i think all it means is when a radioactive substance is sitting alone, the rate at which it naturally decays into nothing. doesnt really change into anything new. but.. maybe i missed your point
Perhaps this is the key to all the Tool mysteries?!
Quote:
Orginally posted by tainednarf1014
Maynard says he wants people to use there minds more and think so lets get crackin.
Quote:
Originally posted by Smokin joe
I also noticed, who cares if this means anything, who here has learned a little more about chemistry then they knew before?
So if Maynard wants people to use their minds... he's has done one hell of job making you guys do it!
I'm not saying it's all bogus and hoax, but in theory you've proven yourself right... and Maynard must be proud!
(interesting theory on the lateralus title nevertheless, keep it going) :)
Originally posted by Jerk-Off no offense mark but i dont think radioactive decay has anything to do with.. anything =] i think all it means is when a radioactive substance is sitting alone, the rate at which it naturally decays into nothing. doesnt really change into anything new. but.. maybe i missed your point
Im not sure if I had a point so I didnt take any offense. But when an element decays, doesnt it lose electrons? So maybe an element could change into a different element (ie gold) ? Its been a while since I had Chemistry class, so I dont fully remember.
Originally posted by tantric-formula i definitely think it has to do something with what you mentioned, the grandest puzzle of all. if anybody hasnt read the story of the preists deathbed confession, you should, its on dannycarey.org.
Just some snip-its from the story here to further suggest the possible element theory of lateralus. While reading stuff that you guys have posted all of this came to my mind. Maybe this is the alchemic process in which to create gold.
This story takes place in the city Rennes-le-chateau, France.
"The answer may lie in one of the coded parchments (parchment one) allegedly discovered by Sauniere inside a hollow pillar that once supported the ancient altar. By connecting certain controlling devices embedded in the Latin text a similar pentagram can be drawn. This, itself, maybe a clue to the whereabouts of a much larger pentagram laid out over the landscape in the region (Rennes-le-chateau). One that mirrors the celestial Venusian pentacle, reminding us of that favorite phrase of the alchemists, "As above, so Below." It has been suggested by many researchers that the alignments of the pentagonal geometry overlaying the Rennes valley contains the key by which one may unlock a great secret."
"since Asmodeus is believed to be the keeper of secrets and guardian of treasures, in particular that of King Solomon, is Sauniere telling us that discovering the pentagonal geometry in the area is the first step in locating a legendary treasure hidden there, whether material or spiritual?"
"The demon crouched inside the doorway has been identified as Asmodeus (or REX MUNDI to others, the devil of the Cathars). Asmodeus is known as the custodian of secrets and the guardian of hidden treasure. He is also believed to be the builder of Solomon’s Temple. At one time, the frightening statue of the demon held a flaming torch in his hand. This too may be important - the idea of flames. Crouched in a mirror image of the devil is Jesus who is being baptized by John the Baptist with water poured from a silvered cockle-shell. fire and water. Could this be related to some kind of secret alchemical process?"
"Upon his return to Rennes-le Chateau, Sauniere began more ambitious renovations inside the crumbling church, exhuming an ancient Carolingian flagstone from the choir floor which concealed the entrance to a crypt beneath. And there by the glow of a lantern he discerned several shiny objects. Whatever the nature of his discovery was, it was evidently of considerable consequence and importance to someone, for the priest suddenly found himself living in the lap of luxury, spending money on a grand scale."
"Speculation as to the nature of this treasure varies among the numerous investigators and includes the following: that which was stolen from the Temple of Jerusalem, The Ark of the Covenant, The Holy Grail, The lost secrets of alchemy (a formula for turning baser metals into gold, or for turning baser man into a more perfected being), the wealth of the Cathars and Knights Templars, whether of a monetary or spiritual nature, genealogies attesting to the survival of the royal Merovingian bloodline, the tomb and preserved remains of Jesus or the reliquary of some other saint such as Mary Magdalene, catacombs filled with the Lords of old adorned in their glittering finery, a stargate technology for journeying to other heavenly realms, a doorway to another dimension by which one can escape the apocalypse and enter paradise, an enormous geometric temple encoded with information of a high-tech nature, occult manuscripts, tunnels leading to Atlantis, and even the entrance to a cavernous underground base that is/was the home to a race of reptilian extraterrestrial beings."
'"Other researchers have offered other equally-clever interpretations of the stations. In the same Station (Station VI), the cloth held by Veronica to wipe the face of Christ looks very much like a pelican. The pelican has always been an important alchemical symbol because the bird wounds itself (by pecking its breast) in order to feed its young with its own blood.1 Are we therefore looking at an alchemical text, with the various stages of the Great Work openly displayed in the church furnishings for "those with eyes to see?"
1 This misconception that the pelican nourished its offspring with the blood from its own breast may have been based on the fact that the bird regurgitates food stored in its pouch. Nevertheless, it is an alchemical symbol of the Philosopher’s Stone (which, acting as a touchstone, also nourishes its offspring)."'
Can anybody see where I am going with this? If you read the entire story you may get a better feel for what I am trying to say, but this secret of his may be what we are trying to figure out. To me this is somehow all connected to this element theory which may be off by some degrees.
I may insert some more commentary based on my findings.... Any thoughts on what I have dug up?
Just noticed that the favorite quote of alchemists above, "As above, so Below" is rearranged in track 9 to "As below, so above and beyond I imagine." More alchemy imagery perhaps. Oh yeah, the name of track 9: Lateralus.
I'm no chemistry expert myself.. I'm just now in my second semester of college chemistry.
But this is how I think it works. Say you have a certain amount of some element that decays. That amount of substance is made up of an insane amount of individual atoms. Of course each atom has electrons and protons. When it decays, it doesn't just lose the electrons. It loses the atoms as a whole. Therefore you are left with the exact same type of atoms, just not as many of them.
You really cant split atoms apart unless you get into nuclear physics and all that.. which I'm not really knowledgable to say much about.
That's why gold is valuable in the first place. It's an element and therefore cannot be created. All we have is the limited amount that was originally here on earth.
Originally posted by Mark D Im not sure if I had a point so I didnt take any offense. But when an element decays, doesnt it lose electrons? So maybe an element could change into a different element (ie gold) ? Its been a while since I had Chemistry class, so I dont fully remember.
Electron number doesn't change elements. When molecules lose electrons they become ions. hey waitaminute this has nothing to do with the puzzle but accidently refered to another Tool song (-)ions.
Proton number is what makes an element I believe. All the other particles are variable but if an lelment lost a proton it would be a different element. I'm pretty sure it's impossible for an elements to lose protons.
__________________ "Painting a picture, composing an opera, that's just something you do until you find the next willing piece of ass. The minute something better than sex comes along, you call me. Have me paged. For sure, even the worst blow job is better than say, sniffing the best rose...watching the greatest sunset. Hearing children laugh."
-Chuck P, Choke
kinda getting off topic here (in the overall view of things) but:
What pac said was right other than the part about it being impossible for an element to lose protons. I just busted out the chemistry book..
In nuclear fission, there are certain things like uranium and plutonium that can be bombared with neutrons.
1 Neutron + 1 Uranium atom = 1 Barium atom + 1 Krypton atom + 3 neutrons
fission is only for big atoms though. fusion is for smaller atoms but takes so much heat that its really impossible to do anywhere other than on the sun.
so.. again, its not really possible to make gold. although some things are possible to create through nuclear reaction like that. :]
la = lanthanum
te = tellurium
ra = radium
lu = lutetium
s = sulfur or (sulphur)
ok well they all are elements, now is it possible anyone can get their hands on these, i doubt it, if so that would be cool, watch you mix it and a 3d puff of gas forms into maynards head
the amounts of what u use matter and some are unobtainable by us definately
Originally posted by Jerk-Off I'm no chemistry expert myself.. I'm just now in my second semester of college chemistry.
But this is how I think it works. Say you have a certain amount of some element that decays. That amount of substance is made up of an insane amount of individual atoms. Of course each atom has electrons and protons. When it decays, it doesn't just lose the electrons. It loses the atoms as a whole. Therefore you are left with the exact same type of atoms, just not as many of them.
You really cant split atoms apart unless you get into nuclear physics and all that.. which I'm not really knowledgable to say much about.
That's why gold is valuable in the first place. It's an element and therefore cannot be created. All we have is the limited amount that was originally here on earth.
Hope that helped some.
im in 7th grade and u can slplit atoms (a-bomb) fairly easily
i think they used hydrogen becuz it was eezy to split
this is a kickass thread but are we "over thinking over analyzing, seperating body from the mind"?
hey i dont want u gize to flame me for that i think wat weer doing is lagitament!
Originally posted by Digital Dreamer I can talk to my Chem. teacher about this. But if one were to create this substance... i think that they would find that there is insufficient information as to HOW to create it. For instance, what state shoudl the elements be put into Gas liquid solid? or how much to use.... i like the idea of the atomic numbers and i will look into what they could be used to mean....... ill keep you updated
There is a fourth state called "Super Conductor" which exists as colder than solid. Just a fact.
Just wanted to add something about creating elements. This of course is possible, because every element after Uranium is manmade and doesn't occur in nature by itself at all. There's two ways to create elements out of other elements
fusion
for example, if one H (hydrogen) atom is traveling fast enough, and it hits another H atom, the two can combine to form He, Helium.
fission
If you hit an existing atom with a beta particle, you can split it into two different atoms.
I think it would be possible to make gold one atom at a time in a billion dollar nuclear reactor... so its kind of impractical.
I think if you went to a chemist or a chemistry teacher with the symbols of the elements, La,Te,Ra, and S, they could look it up in the Handbook of Chemistry and Physics or some other book and find out if these atoms would react. I doubt if all 5 would react, but anything's possible.
I'm going to look at theat numerical sequence and see if I can make any sense of it.
__________________ "All our beliefs are being challenged now... and rightfully so, they're stupid"
-Bill Hicks
Um, this thought just popped into my head while reading thise thread and listening to "The Grudge," but hasn't there been talk on the Tool website about Maynard making some sort of special wine in his own vineyard? I'm trying very hard to think of what they were talking about, and maybe I'm wrong, but does anyone know if gold, or the making of, had anything to do with Maynard's wine making?
The thing about splitting hydrogen to make an H-bomb may only be feasible because of the simple nature of hydrogen atoms. It would be way harder to do the same thing with a more complex element like uranium. Of course, it can be done, but not easily.
I think this was mentioned before, but i will add a little more to it. on the album it is
La-Te-Ra-LuS
the Sulfer is connected to Lu (lutetium) so maybe that connection right there signifies a chemical bond. it could be the elements don't all bond together to form some huge compund, but lutetium and Sulpher may be the ones that bond together to form a substance.
Just thought i'd throw some gas on the fire, see if it lets anyones thoughts prevail or maybe create new ideas
I am a new member to this board as of today but i have been coming and checking out ideas since the opinions section reopened
i checked out some stuff on this subject today and got this theory
for any metal to react it usually needs to react with a non-metal
if i'm not wrong the last digit in the word lateralus is "S" which would stand for sodium which is a non metal
so the equations we have are as follows
La+S=
Te=S=
Ra+S=
Lu+S=
out of these 5 elements, their order in the reactivity series is
Ra
La
Te
Lu
S
So obviously in the equations i worked out earlier none of the metals should displace the sodium so perhaps we should get
Lanthanum sulphate
Tallurium Sulphate
Radium Sulphate
and
Lutetium Sulphate
can anyone use this to help or can anyone figure out the element names for
Tallurium Sulphate
Radium Sulphate
and
Lutetium Sulphate
Ta
__________________ Do not underestimate the power of the darkside
ok i checked out the links that mstajduh threw out there and here's the nuggets of what i got from them...
X-ray studies indicate that amorphous sulfur may have a <b>helical structure with eight atoms per spiral.</b>
<b>Sulfur is essential to life.</b>
(Lutetia, ancient name for Paris, sometimes called cassiopeium by the Germans)
Cassiopeia - This beautiful constellation at the edge of the Milky Way has definetely the shape of a "W".
lutetium is still the <b>most costly</b> of all rare earths.
(L. radius, ray) Radium was discovered in 1898 by Mme. Curie in the pitchblende or uraninite of North Bohemia, ..........on <b>distillation in an atmosphere of hydrogen this amalgam yielded the pure metal.</b>
Radium is used in the producing of self-luminous paints, neutron sources, and in <b>medicine for the treatment of disease.</b>
<b>Lead</b> is a final product of disintegration. (radium)
Tellurium improves the machinability of copper and stainless steel, and <b>its addition to lead decreases the corrosive action of sulfuric acid on lead and improves its strength and hardness.</b>
Lanthanum is silvery white, malleable, ductile, and soft enough to be cut with a knife. It is one of the most reactive of the rare-earth metals. It oxidezes rapidly when exposed to air. Cold water attacks lanthanum slowly, and hot water attacks it much more rapidly. <b>the metal reacts directly with elemental</b> carbon, nitrogen, boron, selenium, silicon, phosphorus, <b>sulfur</b>, and with halogens.
swing: To move laterally or in a curve
i'm still looking into this but feel free to throw your own $.02 in.
Has anyone discovered anything new in relation to this. The more I dig the more im pointed in the direction of alchemy I think Maynard has alot of Alchemy related lyrics and ive also come to believe that eastern asian reliqions are an intrest of his and a tool used in his lyrical expressions
Originally posted by mstajduh From these clues, I would say it means.. Here lies beneath the earth (cemetary) in paris "A season in Hell" ( Une Saison en Enfer)
I think this is in the right direction. I have no reason to think so. Call it intuition. and why exactly is Sulpher necessary to all life?
__________________ "Painting a picture, composing an opera, that's just something you do until you find the next willing piece of ass. The minute something better than sex comes along, you call me. Have me paged. For sure, even the worst blow job is better than say, sniffing the best rose...watching the greatest sunset. Hearing children laugh."
-Chuck P, Choke
You want to find the number 216 in the world, you will be able to find it everywhere. 216 steps from a mere street corner to your front door. 216 seconds you spend riding on the elevator. When your mind becomes obsessed with anything, you will filter everything else out and find that thing everywhere.
75 = abac (aw - bas) = a primitive root; to fodder - fatted, stalled
52 = abiyshay (ab-ee-shah'ee) father of a gift, 'generous', abishai = an isrealite
88 = obth = (o - both) = plural of owb, water skins, Oboth, a place in the desert
71 = abanah = (ab-aw-naw) = perhaps feminine of 'eben' with the article inserted; stone of help; eben-ha-ezer, a place in palestine
16 = ebeh (ay-beh) = from 'abah' in the sense of bending toward; the papyrus -- swift.
71+16=87= abram = contracted from 'abiyram', high father; Abram, the original name of Abraham, Abram.
perhaps this can be connected in some way
humble generous Oboth stone of help bend towards??? i dunno, i'm not sure how the grammar works or how such sentences can be flipped around. anyone come up with anything else from this link or data?
i also found a greek one on there, i gathered from it loosely that it went something like this
75 52 88 (71+16)87 'how it appears on the album cover'
Strive towards ignorance permanantly and completely
perhaps leaping towards death in this state, complete ignorance lies in death only or perhaps drugs of some sort... i thought that greek translation was quite interesting
Have we considered the valences of each of these elements? Valences help us determine Chemical formulae.
La - Lanthanum = +3
Te - Tellurium = -2, (+2), +4, +6
Ra - Radium = +2
Lu - Lutetium = +3
S - Sulphur = -2, +2, +4, +6
Would these numbers be of any use?
We also should work out which element can react with what. The metals, Lanthanum, Radium and Lutetium might react with non-metal, Sulphur, forming an ionic bond. This leaves the semi-metal, Tellurium...
after a couple of months just reading ive decided to join this....susprisingly enlightening
back to the subject, its common knowledge that in the future Paris would be, i think literally, in flames, like if it was the new sodom or something....i say 'common' but actually its not that common....also, there are songs that relate to this, like 'arde paris' (burn paris in spanish), but i doubt its realted to alchemy....
dont forget the water-fire thing cause i think it has some importance too....
oh, and ive just found this website, really basic, but it contains an interesting bibliography regarding alchemy and the rennes mystery for begginers like myself.
in the wise words of maynard and crow011, keep going....
quote:
Maybe when Maynard says Let the waters kiss and TRANSMUTATE these LEADEN grudges into GOLD. If you can do an experiment with any of the elements listed above they should be in liquid form, Let the waters, ( referring to the elements in a liquid state) Kiss (touch) transmutate these leaden grudges into gold ( The outcome of the experiment) Just a thought
...maynard talks about (even uses the same word: transmutate) lead "transmutating" to gold, and tellurium does this, only with silver instead of lead, but lead is the same color as silver (or at least close enough)...
Originally posted by Paraguay I did some research into this very interesting matter last night. Here's what i found out.
1. LA
Lanthanum - based on Greek 'lanthanein' - 'to escape notice' (due to it being undetected in cerium oxide)
Proton Number - 57
Relative Atomic Mass - 139
(Inner transition metal - Lanthanide Series)
2. TE
Tellurium - based on Latin 'tellus -uris' - 'earth'
Proton Number - 52
Relative Atomic Mass - 128
(Non-metal - Group 6)
3. RA
Radium - based on Latin 'radius' - 'ray'
Proton Number - 88
Relative Atomic Mass - 226
(Alkali metal - Group 2)
4. LU
Lutetium (Lutecium) - based on Latin 'Lutetia' - ancient name of Paris, France, home of it's original discoverer.
Proton Number - 71
Relative Atomic Mass - 175
(Inner transition metal - Lanthanide Series)
5. S
Sulphur (US: Sulfur) - based on Latin 'sulfur; sulp(h)ur'
Proton Number - 16
Relative Atomic Mass - 32
(Non-metal - Group 6)
While looking through the dictionary I found some other interesting pieces of information. 'LA' or 'LAH' is the 6th note of a major scale and the note A in a fixed-doh system. 'TE' or 'TI' is the 7th note of a major scale and the note B in a fixed-doh system. I was unable to find this musical system with the other letters of Lateralus, though I believe the 3rd one is 'RE.'
And yes, I do have to much time on my hands.
This is interesting. Ok there was a reference there to ancient paris, hiding from notice, earth, etc,etc. Just a thought i had. If anyone recalls from the Tool recommended reading list there was a book called Holy Blood and the Holy Grail. This was a great book. Now the reason i mention it is because the whole research revolves around France and the merovignian bloodline-which the authors believe to be direct descendants of Jesus Christ.Now what if, like schism says, they've given us a puzzle and through communication such as this we can make the pieces fit?A prominent quote from the book is ET IN ARCADIA EGO which means "in arcadia i lie". Now i'm curious as to the connection between lateralus and the above mentioned as, if you recall, earlier on this year on the Tool official website this was mentioned in essay form. Keep working on the title, and maybe we can make the pieces fit.
cool read relevant to, LA TE RA LUS could be the secret formulafor saturn!
read this please and see if it makes sense to u http://www.levity.com/alchemy/hollandus_saturn.html
I hope the link works, if not post a note saying it doesnt work and ill try something else OK. Peace Jake
i know you guys are all ment to get what ever you can for yourselves out of tools lyrics and music, but you guys are way off. it was a good hack i admit, but the actual make up of these chemicals are purely coincidental. fact is, maynard was readinging and getting inspiration from sources that date way further back before people knew the make up of atoms.
the truth i believe folks, lies within some early news letters (September 2002 to be exact) about Maynards "Templar knights wine" in which he was trying to copy or reproduce.
This procedure is not just a scientific experiment, it is an ART. art of coarse goes further than material, it digs with the body, soul and spirit. You have just reached the surface of the alchamist/Material/Body aspect something great Maynard has uncovered. i will reveal more if someone else is listening, but if not then don't answer back. balls in your court Solve et Coagula
__________________ "Every girls two drinks away from being lesbian MOE!! LETS PARTY!!" --Byron Wilson
