People, just listen to the damn CD in whatever order makes you happy and less hostile. If everyone remembers this, then I'm sure we'll have more productive discussions.
Personally, I think the alt. tracklisitng is just another one of those serendipitous Tool/math things. It's interesting enough to make me go "Hmmmm..." but that's about it for me. However, if anyone listens to the alt. tracklisting and experiences some kind epiphany, be sure to share with the class.
Originally posted by schismgrudge200
the next bit of lyrics are too deep for the most of you to understand having to do with separating the body from the mind . . .
. . . you guys are fools, i never thought people that were into to Tool could be such fools
Originally posted by schismgrudge200
So now, about the music:
Parabol Parabola is in E, so is Schism, which parabola ends in guitar in e and schism begins with guitar in e, then schism ends and goes directly into drums then bass for Ticks and Leeches, all the while adam jones drops to D and then begins playing, then you have mantra, adam tunes the third string to E for Lateralus, so your looking from the top down at D,A,E, then you have Faaip and the tuning of the third string is back to D so it's D,A,D, like it was in Ticks, then the tuning remains the same for The Grudge, Triad, Eon Blue, then the drums start Reflection which gives adam time to tune back to D,A,E, which he rides through reflection, the patient, and dispostion
do bascially, the tunes follow the tuning this way, each time adam tunes, he's given the proper time
plus, if you fucking ingnorant morons would give this track order a try, youd see, if anyone wants an mp3 of the whole thing, without the silence as My Proof to you that it fits like a fucking glove, like one great song, ill email it you, just email me and ask for it, [email protected]
you guys are fools, i never thought people that were into to Tool could be such fools
Alright man... since no one else picked up on this... I'm afraid I have to rip you to shreds. First off... before you go on ranting about how the tuning shows how the secret track order works... you need to pick up a fucking instrument and learn what the word "tuning" means. Parabol/a is in drop B/E tuning... not E. Schism is in Drop D... like the rest of the songs on the fucking album. It is not in stanard. Lateralus is in Drop D as well, and no, the high D string is not tuned up to E... thats the most retarded idea I've heard yet. The Patient doesnt use the High E tuning you suggested either. In fact, NO TOOL SONG USES THAT! And I dont know of any song in existance that does... because it would sound like shit!. So why dont you go learn something about music, you Fucking Ignorant Bastard and leave the rest of us to ourselves. Take your stupid bullshit fantasies and shove them up you ass where they belong.
Thanks, Fool.
__________________ Finding beauty in dissonance...
Why dont you pull your head out of your ass... I can play nearly every song in question along with the cd. There's no difference in the tuning I use and the one he uses. Thanks.
__________________ Finding beauty in dissonance...
Well, lets hope no 1 watching's castin' a spell...
First off, I'd like to say thank you to "SchismGrudge" for putting some method to the madness that I had put to rest long, long ago. I swore up and down (by myself) that Parable and Parabola were made to go 1,2, but since no one else among my surrounding environment cares to listen to Tool, or much else I indulge in for that matter. Sorry for the digressing banter...
46&2, how is it you can justify your claim to having the ability to play "nearly every song in question" without their being a published list of "songs in question?" If you're referring to the std. track list, even the ultimately understandable, introspective alternate track listing; then what difference does it make if you can play "nearly" anything?
Further, have you considered requesting feedback from Adam pertaining this difference in opinion?
Lastly, for all with any open minded realm of intrigue, especially sugarfreetheory and CROW011. There's a insurmountable force behind the number 13 that may be slipping the mind's of most. And while this isn't a secret, I'll keep this idea to myself, for the same sake Tool would have with their acknowledgeable decisions. Take a look at The Great Seal of a RIGHTeous dollar bill in your sweaty wad: how many olive leaves are in the eagles grip, how many arrows are clenched in the other talon, how many stars are located in the Star of David (Israel?) above the eagles head, and the count of stripes that are, how many letter do you count within the phrase held by the eagle's beak? Yes, I too am certain that 13 is a coincidence and not thought of previously. (Albeit relevant, I'll leave the other half of the "Seal" out of this discussion for it's not necessary to discuss.) If you're looking for me to make a grave connection with my surfacing of the nonchalant, then I'll just say it's all has to do with the grand scheme of things and we're not discussing those who dabble in the business with just your average mortals.
As all Tool things tend to have a second meaning, it is not so impossible for Lateralus to have an alternative songlist. In fact, Lateralus seemed to have fewer misteries than Ænima.
This alternative running comes as a sort of compensation. Who knows?
However, the main reason i believe there is a second running form for it, is that the so praised unity Disposition/Reflection/Triad didn't come as one single song. Danny Carey said they were originally designed as one song, but then they decided to split it, and yet he didn't mention any reasons for it, and this could be the reason. Conceived as one, there wouldn´t be 13 songs, but 11, and the loss of the significance of n. 13 (13 is the 6th element in the Fibonacci sequence (sequence of spirals)). Anyone remembers Undertow 69? Without the 13 songs the album would've lost its centre, its siginificance, and, moreover, would not give the oportunity for a separation and alternative running. To me, it is far the strongest evidence of the existence of an alternative running.
The second reason is how Faaip de Oiad has a completely different meaning and direction in relation to every other song in the album. A song about war, aliens, inside an album that talks about spiritual growth? Even "The Grudge" and "Ticks and Leeches" have that orientation. The first one sugests the effort to get rid of the anger, and the second (as the hidden meaning of "Hooker with a Penis" mentioned by Maynard in his interview listed in front page of this section) is refered to capability to love your enemies and let them abuse you, in orther to them to grow ("I hope you choke" could be said as "I hope you realize it is not good").
And yet aliens and spiritual growth can be interconected, perhaps in a strange way in the ordinary running ( preparation for armaggedon) or a second one (the very ambient of a war).
I hope knew explanations can be brought to light, and the meaning of every song be well explained in this new context, and I refer specially to the starter of the thread, schismgrudge200. I feel there's room to follow and it would be nice if he or anyone developed this theory.
Alright, you probably should have read my post above the one you challenged, but that's fine. I'm prepared to back up my argument. Schismgrudge stated that with the alternate track order, everytime there was a "break" (ie: Mantra, Fiapp De Oiad) that the tuning changed. This was part of his support for the theory he presented.
Now, this is where my ability to play all the songs that he mentioned comes in. I can play all the songs along with the cd, which means my tuning has to match Adam's so it doesn't sound horrible along with the recording. I was pointing out that Schismgrudge got a lot, in fact almost all, of the tunings wrong. He said that Parabol/a and Schism were in standard E, when in fact Parabol/a is in Drop B/E and Schism is in Drop D. This shoots down the entire tuning theory. Also, the statement that The Patient, Lateralus and Reflection were all in DAEGBe tuning is completely incorrect. So, his evidence using tunings is completely invalid... which makes it difficult for me to believe anything else he has to to say.
Hope that clears things up for you.
Thanks
__________________ Finding beauty in dissonance...
There is no such thing as coincidence. If Lateralus matches up with Nightmare before christmas or nightmare on elm street it is still no coincidence. Hasn't it occurred that if we are moving to realize our singular consciousness, everything we do as humans can match up in some way or another.
There is a lot of useless hostility over this shit. you guys say peace and blessed be and all that, but it seems like peace is the last thing on your minds.
Originally posted by paraflux this has been utterly ridiculous.
There is no such thing as coincidence. If Lateralus matches up with Nightmare before christmas or nightmare on elm street it is still no coincidence. Hasn't it occurred that if we are moving to realize our singular consciousness, everything we do as humans can match up in some way or another.
LoL
good point
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Why does everybody have to be so critical of what other people say on these posts? Everybody is entitled to their own opinion right or wrong. That's the nature of TOOL's music. "overthinking, overanalyzing separates the body from the mind." Whatever inspires you to do something, good or bad, should be embraced. That's the nature us as human beings. Lighten up.
__________________ "I opened my eye and there we were."
Im open to ideas that tool would create an alternate track order, especially with the spiral themes, and the fact the spiral can be represented with fibbonacci numbers. I have heard too much refrence to alternate track orders in too many places to dismiss it out of hand. But how could any band synch up an album to two different movies, in two different track orders? Even if they wanted to, it sounds impossible to me.
Ill try both of these synch's, because Im a bored tool freak, but I dont expect much. It would be cool if they actually did... but cmon'
MY GOD.... I just wasted 30 minutes of my great life looking at this stupid-assed thread...
You guys are SO full of shit!
Maybe you DID find some freaky coincidence.. but see... Lets assume that I made Lateralus... Writing songs is a long and tedious process... and after creating such beautiful artwork as is on that CD, yes I would have a particular track order.. but... I would NOT try to sync it with a movie... Thats ridiculous.. also.. Look at it this way...
Take Dark Side of the Moon... AMAZING album.. but it wouldn't work any other way. If "Money" or "Breathe Reprise" were put ANYWHERE else, the album just wouldn't be the same... and I think thats what Tool did for Lateralus. Its liek reading a book... If a book had 13 chapters, and you started with chapter 6, then read 9, then 4, then 1, then 13, then 7, then 12, then 8, then 2, then, 11, then 3, then 5, then 10.. it just WOULDN'T WORK. You would not get ANY enjoyment out of the book at ALL. You be frazzled and confused... Tool designed it to be how it is... and I think they did a damn good job when it comes to the trck order.
And ALSO.... they whole Schism is in E and stuff.. thats BULLSHIT... I am going to tell everyone rigth now what key EVERY song on Lateralus is in.. that way there can be NO argument..
Grudge - D
Eon lue Apocalypse - D
Patient - D
Mantra - None
Schism - D
Parabol/a - E
Ticks and Leeches - E
Lateralus - D
Disposition - E
Reflection - B
Triad - E
Faaip De Oiad - None
And that is EXACTLY right... So, anything else you hear is BS.
Also... What about this... Tool's whole message is to think for yourself.. well.. How do you know that the members of ool aren't just mockig us for all of our interpretations and such.. because when you think about it... We ARE doing exactly what they want us to...
i don't recall there ever being a need to hit the low E string in schism, so i don't think it matters whether it's in drop D or whatever, but I haven't played much of the song, so I don't know.... but yeah parabola is in dropped b/e, adam even said so
he wasn't talking about the tuning, he was talking about the key signature. i know it's not something tab-reading guitarists deal with much... (not to say i'm not one of them)
__________________ Beliefs allow the mind to stop functioning. A non-functioning mind is clinically dead. Believe in nothing.
Originally posted by fifth 6,7,5,8,4,9,13,12,1,11,2,10,3.
Listen to the timing of the last bit of guitar in Parabola going into Schism and the drums coming out of Schism going into Ticks and
Leeches and you should be able to hear why this order is correct.
This was originally posted under “Maynard Splits” by fifth. This is an alternate track order is almost identical to schismgrudge200’s order he proposed. They basically sited the same logic in forming the “spiral” track order.
6,7,5,8,4,9,13,12,1,11,2,10,3 or
6,7,5,8,4,9,13,1,12,2,11,3,10
So my question is, did they both think of this on their own, or is this order posted somewhere else on the net? Are there any validity to the fact that they sound better this way? Has anyone tried it?
Sorry to but in on the guitar tuning arguement, but who cares? There could be an alternate track order without song to song key matching. Im not saying I think the alternate order is true, but its interesting if it is. Any thoughts?
why those track orders anyways? why stop there? there are 6,227,020,800 different 'track listings' possible (13! = 1*2*...*13). why not spend all your time going through every one and ask yourself 'what does it mean?'
if you take the sin(13) then you get 0.42
if you take the tan(13) then you get 0.46
(think ÆNIMA)
if you are really looking for math puzzles, go nutz.
Originally posted by GernBlanston why those track orders anyways? why stop there? there are 6,227,020,800 different 'track listings' possible (13! = 1*2*...*13). why not spend all your time going through every one and ask yourself 'what does it mean?'
if you take the sin(13) then you get 0.42
if you take the tan(13) then you get 0.46
(think ÆNIMA)
if you are really looking for math puzzles, go nutz.
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Re: finally, i figured out the Lateralus Puzzle
I don't think Tool was spending 5 years between albums watching "A Nightmare Before Christmas" and playing with a calculator.......I think they were in court battling over record contracts and other bullshit.......maybe I'm wrong.......could be some other Tool.......
good in depth thinking I just don't see it match up, doesn't work for me so I can't think why
are you saing that if i lesten to Lateralus in the order sugerted by the 2nd colem of numbers it will make sence as a story? and does this work for any other albums?
I've read all the posts on this thread, and honestly, I'm a bit disappointed.
The people who claim to be open minded and such won't even try the new track order or synchs or anything.
But the people who know it all don't seem to have any evidence of it.
Well let me attempt to straighten things out just a tad bit.
For all you non-believers out there, the alternate track order is real. It does exist. Believe it or not.
AND MAYBE, JUST MAYBE,
Tool wants us to listen to both track listings. The way it is now, and the alternative. Its two different stories. Try it. (Tool really is something, they give us ONE album, and we get TWO different ways to hear it. What more can we ask?)
Grab a sheet of paper or something.
Write down the numbers 1-13 linearly. This is the track order as it is now.
Now make a parabola-shaped line connecting 6 to 7. Do it over top of the numbers. Then connect 7 to 5 underneath the numbers, and 5 to 8, 8 to 4, and 4 to 9.
Now you have the first spiral.
Faaip de Oiad serves as a connector or separator, depending on how you look at it.
So now we have 6,7,5,8,4,9, and 13.
Now, do the same thing for the second spiral. 1 to 12 (over top), 12 to 2, 2 to 11, 11 to 3, and 3 to 10.
Now you should have what looks like a small spiral infused with a big spiral.
Now we have 6,7,5,8,4,13,1,12,2,11,3,10
This is the alternate track list. It is created by spirals.
Coincidence, non-believers?
Now, to make a little sense of this, you need to know that in the Golden Rectangle the two smallest boxes are the same size. Now when you make the Golden Spiral connecting all the boxes, the two smallest boxes create a Parabola
FAQ:
** Great, so what is a "Parabola"?
We all know it's a geometric curve, but as far as what it is doing as the title of this song, the best theory has yet to come forward. One notion is that it approximates the shape of two bodies together, as in the lyrics of the song."
HMMM I WONDER WHAT THE TITLE COULD HAVE TO DO WITH IT ALL????
Parabol and Parabola create an actual parabola. Hmm... coincidence? I guess thats for you to decide.
Now how about some fun facts.
The 16th number in the fibonacci sequence is 987.
FAQ:
"Many of the songs had working titles, including "Lateralus" which was once called "987"
The 16th letter of the Greek alphabet is Pi.
Didn't I hear something about a synch with the movie, Pi? ; )
Coincidence?
In the 2003 October newsletter on the official Tool site, one of the pictures includes Justin (yes THE Justin) dressed up as that one guy from Nightmare Before Christmas.
Coincidence?
This post is supposed to show you all how the alternate track order was created. There are so many more similarities to it, that I don't even want to list them all right now. I also posted this to show that there are such things as coincidences, and they are ALL worth contemplating. But it doesn't mean that everything that has a slight connection is intended. Maybe Tool did a synch with a movie, and we haven't discovered it yet. If someone came to these boards and told us, they would get shot down, because everyone thinks its a stupid idea. Even if it was true.
So if a new idea or something comes along, try it out. Look at it with an open mind. If you don't buy it, thats fine. You don't have to. But to just say something isn't true without actual consideration, well that is ignorance.
I think we are losing focus here.
Last edited by MORNING_GLORY; 01-17-2004 at 08:43 AM..
And one more thing.
I don't believe this is the full "secret to lateralus"
I think its only a portion.
Lateralus has so many coincidences and allusions and metaphors, I think one day someone will figure it all out and, "bring the pieces back together."
But this alternate track order, which most of you all decide not to accept, its only a piece of the puzzle.
Tool didn't make it that easy.
i'll bet maynard didn't just think of a good title for this album either. i'll bet the title has something to do with all of this crazy math stuff because mayanrd's not a sheep who would just THINK of a good title for his work. that's gay. i'll bet if you astrally project while listening to the album, you reach enlightenment or something. or maybe maynard spent hous thinking of many theories involving sacred geometry just so he can put something related to it in the title of the album.
man, bless maynard for making us think for ourselves
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------------------------------------------------------------------------------------sure, it could be true...
there are no 'answers' in the tracklist or the tunings. you'd be better off reading comics. do some research before spouting true absurdities...
__________________ "A humanist is anyone who rejects the attempt to describe or account for man wholly on the basis of physics, chemistry or animal behaviour." ~Joseph R. Krutch
Last edited by corps d'allumen; 01-19-2004 at 08:32 PM..
i'll bet maynard didn't just think of a good title for this album either. i'll bet the title has something to do with all of this crazy math stuff because mayanrd's not a sheep who would just THINK of a good title for his work. that's gay. i'll bet if you astrally project while listening to the album, you reach enlightenment or something. or maybe maynard spent hous thinking of many theories involving sacred geometry just so he can put something related to it in the title of the album.
man, bless maynard for making us think for ourselves
"is thinking about what maynard thinks about thinking for yourself? because i think you are just thinking about what you think maynard is thinking about thinking that you are thinking for yourself, when really you're just thinking about maynard. what do you think?"
i thought it was funny, if you were being sarcastic.
i thought it was funny, if you were being serious.
i just thought it was funny.
__________________ "A humanist is anyone who rejects the attempt to describe or account for man wholly on the basis of physics, chemistry or animal behaviour." ~Joseph R. Krutch
I don't know about the puzzle on Lateralus being true or not, but I think it is very possible. Aaliyah did something similar on her album, that came out just about 2 months after Lateralus did. You guys should seriously check her out. I talked to the producer of it, and there is indeed a hidden mathematical puzzle embedded in the cd which I haven't even come close to completely solving yet. I could use some help actually. The only thing about it is that it coorelates with the time signatures in each song and because she uses polymeters is almost every song I've had a hard time decyphering the puzzle. I'd love to see Tool try and do that on the next cd.
Last edited by My Third Eye; 02-12-2004 at 06:12 PM..
I tried what you said. It barely connects. Still its a good try. But please for fuck sake, dont say "I CRACKED IT!" cos if any1 disagrees with you that will be the first thing they criticize u on
It is weird though, The grudge and blue eon apocalypse seems to merge with the video of parabola. Maybe its the same for the whole album - You gotta merge the songs together differently. Altho i think the grudge connecting with the video was just for fun by Tool, cos [this is going to my theory of parabol/a] i think parabol is PARABLE [story with a meaning in order to teach a moral or religious point] and well basically i think the video is telling us about chakra.
Please dont try and accuse this guy for doing anything wrong. He tried to get something, he posted it, and then he gets bullshit from everyone. But, schismgrudge, i gotta admit ur acting like an asshole when you get flamed. You should just ignore them. If its what u believe then fine, then u will know that the rest of us are a bunch of ignorant shits
i'll bet maynard didn't just think of a good title for this album either. i'll bet the title has something to do with all of this crazy math stuff because mayanrd's not a sheep who would just THINK of a good title for his work. that's gay. i'll bet if you astrally project while listening to the album, you reach enlightenment or something. or maybe maynard spent hous thinking of many theories involving sacred geometry just so he can put something related to it in the title of the album.
man, bless maynard for making us think for ourselves
hey uhm... You dont get it do you? You are following maynards words. Whos the sheep?
Its ironic. Tool want to make songs to please themselves. They do want people to listen to their music and be more open, but they clearly see how funny it is when someone says they arent sheep but go off and buy tool's albums to learn. Hence the song "Useful idiot". Sounds like ur CD is broken? Go buy another one. Baaa!
__________________ NEVER say "This is what it means". Say "this is what it means to ME".
So now, about the music:
Parabol Parabola is in E, so is Schism
Schism isn't in E, and doesn't begin in E. It's basically in D minor and A minor, with variations.
Quote:
Originally Posted by schismgrudge200
, then you have mantra, adam tunes the third string to E for Lateralus, so your looking from the top down at D,A,E
Hum. What? Lateralus is in dropped-d tunning all the way.
Quote:
Originally Posted by schismgrudge200
, like it was in Ticks, then the tuning remains the same for The Grudge, Triad, Eon Blue, then the drums start Reflection which gives adam time to tune back to D,A,E, which he rides through reflection, the patient, and dispostion
Hey, all the album is in dropped-d tuning, except disposition which you could play in standard tuning. Tunning to D,A,E is totally useless.
Quote:
Originally Posted by schismgrudge200
, do bascially, the tunes follow the tuning this way, each time adam tunes, he's given the proper time
.... it's an album, Adam doesn't need to have any time to tune... furthermore, in a live concert situatin he would change guitars in between songs if he wanted to change tunnings, not retune his guitar.
Quote:
Originally Posted by schismgrudge200
if anyone wants an mp3 of the whole thing, without the silence as My Proof to you that it fits like a fucking glove, like one great song, ill email it you, just email me and ask for it, [email protected]
Yeah I would like to have it. As I have already said, musically, it doesn't have any consistency (except the end of parabola/beginning of schism thing). If it's intentionnal, it's a funny stuff to toy with the fans, but nothing more. So have fun with it... but artisticaly it's pretty poor and inconsistent (if you want fucked-up music dealing with mathematics and formulas, you should try to listen to I. Xenakis).
