.

thats what he was saying.


I wish I 'got' 10kd, but i just dont. I've tried, but i just cannot get into this album. :/

Thank you for what I consider to be a very accurate post. You stated it very well and, as a trained musician, I completely understand what you are saying and your words help me to understand why so many others can't fully appreciate 10,000 Days. Lateralus and Aenima are masterpieces in their own right, but 10K Days is far superior to both for many of the reasons you mentioned. Musically, it is definitely their greatest CD and topping it is going to be very difficult; especially if Maynard is losing interest as some believe. I won't believe it until I hear it. He wouldn't say things like "welcome home" as he has in so many cities on this tour if he didn't fully grasp this chemistry that he is an indispensible part of. He's been quoted as saying they will make music until one of them dies and, sure, he may have been out-voted on touring this summer and rather be squashing grapes, but contrary to many naysayers he is giving it all he has just like always. I'm sure he's back in northern AZ heaven with Eric squashing grapes as of yesterday. He's a spark plug that doesn't stop. I have recently listened to all four of their full-length CDs back to back multiple times and none of them leave me with quite the "holy shitness" that 10,000 Days does. It is beyond amazing. Evil Joe didn't have a ton to do with this one. They basically did it all themselves. I hope they do it the same way for the next CD. Great post, withSpirit.

Yeah, well I can chew bubble gum and play the triangle all at the same time. Top that shit!

Awesome, another "trained musician" thinks an album just thrown together by tool is a masterpiece. *cough cough* Who's training these people lol.

Haha...thrown together huh? I don't even know what to say to that. I'll post this breakdown of the end of Rosetta Stoned that I posted in a Live Discussion thread in response to you, which several other musicians appreciated. Maybe you'll have some sort of understanding after reading it...things like this CANNOT be just "thrown together," as objective fact, it's physically impossible. So here it is, get ready for a long read.............................


Quote:
Originally Posted by CCP View Post
"I can play what i have attempted on guitar relatively easily, except I had trouble on RS but that might be because it was so damn cold when i attempted it and my fingers were frozen. Vicarious is not difficult at all but the most fun to play imo"


This is a common mistake when evaluating difficulty. It's one thing to memorize and play along with the song once you've heard and seen Adam do it. It's another thing to write something like that, make it perfectly compliment 3 other people, and then play live what you've written with no one but yourself as a guideline, even improvising now and then. It's an extremely difficult feat to cover a Tool song with a live band, if you've ever tried it...very very hard. I challenge you...put together a Tool cover band. Try playing those guitar parts with Justin playing a harmony underneath, Danny playing a polymeter on top, and Maynard's tricky vocal patterns in your ear while you try and focus on playing the melody perfectly. Then try putting your own spin on it, or extending the song. It becomes nearly impossible for anyone who is not incredibly gifted. When the greatest composer in the world writes an orchestra piece, no single part is that difficult if you isolate it and play it by itself. it's the whole that is so astounding.

I'd like to take this time to briefly show you and everyone else an example of that. Consider the following at the very end of Rosetta Stoned (at 10:29):

Adam opens up the outro with a 13/4 riff, which is an odd rhythm in itself. Then (at 10:40), on the 4th quarter note of Adam's 3rd measure on guitar, Maynard begins singing in a 5/8 with Justin and Danny in sync, OVER Adam's 13/4. Not only did this just become a polymeter, it became a polymeter constructed of two different ODD rhythms. Not only is it a polymeter constructed of two odd rhythms, but one rhythm is being played to the QUARTER note, and the other rhythm is being played to the EIGHTH note. Then (at 10:47), on the 8th quarter note of Adam's 4th measure, Danny begins playing a syncopated 3/4. So he has switched from playing a 5 on the eighth note to playing a 3 on the quarter note. The polymeter has now become what I call a triple polymeter, and it's ALL in odd rhythm: we have Adam playing a 13/4, Danny playing a 3/4, and Maynard and Justin rocking a 5/8. Then (at 10:54) at the end of Adam's 5th measure of 13/4, he switches from playing a 13 on the quarter note (13/4) to a 7 on the eighth note (a 7/8 groove). Maynard and Justin continue pounding the 5/8, while Danny changes his syncopated 3/4 to a smoother double-bass 3/4. Notice that at this same point (10:54), after the rhythmic chaos that has just ensued, ALL four members have matched up to begin a new measure in EACH of their rhythms.....Adam cranks his 7/8, Danny plays his 3/4, and Maynard and Justin continue with the 5/8. Also at this point, Adam begins playing the exact same tune that Maynard is singing, but of course in a different rhythm. These separate rhythms then go on to overlap eachother for 10 measures of Adam's 7/8, 14 measures of Maynard/Justin's 5/8, and 11 and 2/3 measures of Danny's 3/4...until the bitter end of the song (god damn! shit the bed!). Wait...11 and 2/3 measures by Danny? Yep, he removes the last quarter note from his final measure and splits the last 5 notes into two measures of 5/8 to match the final bass notes, final vocal notes, and the final two guitar notes...all of this to pound your face with the last two chords: God damn! Shit the bed!

The closing triple polyrhythm pans out essentially like this (hard to be exact on here):

Adm: 7 _ 7 _ 7 _ 7 _ 7 _ 7_ 7_ 7_ 7_ 7 = 70 beats (70 8th notes)
M/J: 5_ 5_5_5_5_5_5_5_5_5_5_5_5_5 = 70 beats (70 8th notes)
Dan: 3_3_3_ 3_ 3_ 3_ 3_ 3_ 3_ 3_3_2 = 70 beats (35 4th notes = 70 8th notes)

Notice how precise they were, starting on the only note of Adam's opening riff they possibly could have in order to all four match up at the beginning of the part I just mapped out, with all four finishing their patterns at 70 beats, and Danny cutting off his last note to mesh with the rest of the band for the "god damn! shit the bed!" line. Two parts are played to the eighth note, and one part is played to the quarter note. But you'll notice if you factor Danny's 3/4 up to a 6/8 count...it's a 5, 6, and 7 count all being played to the 8th note on top of one another. Such is the musical mastery of Tool. These things are meticulously planned out. There is no possible way this can be played without extreme amounts of forethought and mathematical calculation, for those of you thinking this might have been an accident...it simply cannot occur that way. That's why it's so interesting once you realize that something like this was going on in their heads during the writing process.

Not only that, but each member was actually changing the polymeters he was playing INSIDE of the polymeters that the other 3 members were playing...all in odd rhythm. Absolutely incredible. It would go like this....

Adam: Start_____________Change________________ End
M/Jus: ______Start_____________________________ End
Dann: ______Start__ Change______________Change _End


This is Tool, and similarly 10,000 Days: the whole is greater than each individual part. And keep in mind, this was just the last 42 seconds of one song.

sometimes people tend to forget tool is just a rock band like any else.

To some degree, yes. But not exactly. It would be easier if they were "just a rock band like any else." And CCP, I'd like to hear something you "throw together." Let me know if that happens.

Did they? all i saw in response to that were basically saying you have too much time. but oh well maybe you recieved PM's

I have "thrown together" a few pieces of music in the past. I may just post something.

Looking forward to it! Seriously. It's probably good. Please share!!

I did actually receive PMs, and I guess you missed the other people who told me it was a very interesting read. But, regardless, why don't you respond to my explanation of the music? That's what this thread and my posts are about. Quit insulting what you perceive to be my elitist attitude, and respond to my argument and evidence to support the fact that 10,000 Days is not thrown together. Did you even understand what I was talking about in that post?

very nice post up there withSpirit

basically CCP claimed he does not like 10k days and withSpirit goes on saying that is because he lacks musician ears. I think that is underestimating the other person and provocative act to prove something I quite dont get - you have to remember you are talking about person's taste. To start with assuming technical complexity would necessarily be a good thing is just another assumption like any other.

What comes to CCP stating "Awesome, another "trained musician" thinks an album just thrown together by tool is a masterpiece." was more about some people would "like" any album by Tool just because they are Tool.

Agreed, whether you're a trained musician or not, it doesn't change whether someone likes 10k days or not.

Simple as this. Some people like the album, others are so so and others do not. The only thing being a trained musician changes is being able to appreciate the musical complexities, that's it.

For me, that'd be like trying to argue with someone that doesn't like the UFC simply because they have no personal experience in the martial arts. It doesn't fucking matter if I studied martial arts to like or dislike the UFC, but I can understand that I have a better understanding of what's going on in the physical chessmatch and have a personal appreciation for it. But to sit there and tell someone else they don't know how to appreciate it just because they have no experience would be pretty ignorant.

Yes

Good point

I understood what you were trying to say, i just don't neccesarily agree. You did breakdown the music pretty clearly but it certainly didn't change my opinion regarding the complexity of it.

And, as I've been saying over and over, 10,000 Days is VERY much about musical complexity. You just contradicted yourself and proved my point in the process. Thank you. Your first and second statements are absolutely false...it is NOT that simple, and it does change whether you like it or not. Your third statement is both correct and incorrect. If you are a trained musician, you will indeed appreciate complexity more; however, complexity is a HUGE aspect of Tool's music, so that's not the only difference. I'll recap and explain.

Say you only think 10,000 Days is 'ok' (like CCP does). Let's also say you're not a formally educated musician (which CCP said he is not). Now, imagine CCP was suddenly able to understand the rhythmic and melodic structures from a technical standpoint, and able to understand the construction of each song, how difficult it is to write, and how difficult it is to play. As you have just said, this would allow him to better appreciate the complexity of the music. If he were able to better appreciate such an important aspect of the album, he would obviously appreciate the album itself more. Even if he still didn't 'like' the music after he understood the complexity, he could at least appreciate the elements and respect the musicianship, and he would not feel the need to lurk around the 10,000 days forums insulting the album on a regular basis. What CCP is doing right now is essentially bad-mouthing something he knows nothing about...it's like saying another culture is weird or screwed up when you haven't spent any time in that culture, and when you haven't even bothered to try find out why they live the way they do, or why they practice the rituals that they practice. It's a statement made in ignorance.

Of course, many people who haven't studied music will say "aww c'mon man, it's just sound waves...you like it or you don't, quit overanalyzing everything dude!" I've been told that before. It makes you feel better about your lack of understanding, but it's just not true. It's not a simple like or dislike. Listening to music is an extremely active, analytical process, and if you don't have the knowledge and the mental tools to fully participate in that process, you won't be able to appreciate more difficult pieces of music. That's the point I'm trying to make.

"ego god" what does that mean?

I'm not being critical, i'm truly curious.

Ignorance is a bliss :)

And quoting yourself is pathetic.

Edited for sake of not being too harsh. Basically message deleted. But I will say, wow spirit you are one crazy dude.

I could understand someone putting that much thought into lets say, 'The meaning of life', but it's a Tool album, and arguably their least insightful at that, so I understand you have an elitist attitude but your analysis of the music just seems over the top to me.

so little, so amusing

Can you try repeating that in english? What you just said made no sense.

Dude, don't start your fucking invalid point bullshit with me. I didn't contradict anything and my point was very accurate. Apparently your reading skills are on the opposite end of the spectrum from your musical skills.

If anything at all, all you did was contradict YOURself here by saying he can still not like it but would have a better understanding of the complexity. That's exactly what the fuck I just said dumbass. And it's the same thign you've been arguing with him over.


lol, wow...seriously? Get a fuckin' life.

Me no native in english so me no understand, sorry.

LOL, dude. No offence, but you really need to work on your english grammar.









But, hey, i'm dutch. What do I know?

Why's Inner Eulogy on probation? They made some good points, and in regard to WithSpirit needing to get a life, how could anyone argue that?. lol

yeah i dont think probing was a winner call either

You completely ignored my point. That is, he says he doesn't like it, but doesn't even understand it. How can make an informed decision to like or dislike something you have no understanding of? His opinion has been formed out of ignorance. If he understood what was going on in the music, but still didn't like the actual type of music, then that's fine...he would at least appreciate it, as I said. That's what I meant, of course. You fail to see that 'appreciation' and 'like' are two different things.

In your first little paragraph, you didn't present any actual reasoning why your point was valid. I believe it is not valid, for the reasons I stated in my previous post (all of which you ignored). Additionally, I think it's obvious that I read fine and have a very good command of the English language, so that was a worthless thing to say. Lastly, "wow...seriously? Get a fuckin' life" is not an argument. I suggest you learn how to debate with the big boys before you come back from suspension, so you don't have to resort to childish name calling.

Shitting up the albums section right after being unprobed was a bad call on his part. It wasn't just his posts in this thread that got him probed again. If you want to resort to name calling and general shit posting, I recommend this section.

I dont think it was shit posting, thats all.

The "crushing-n00bs-on-their-interps-of-TOOL" act is getting old, though.

me like you :)

It seems you link understanding to what is going on in the music. If I assume "what is going on in the music" is the theoretical side you really limit the way music can be perceived and make yet another assumption that there is a right way of understanding something.

Stating "he doesnt even understand it" is just comparision of understanding to your own and does not really mean anything.

Wait for the next election :)

yeah i know these things are not mentioned to some people

^
Somebody's back from a vacation. Me thinks.

Hi Rogs. Got a nice tan?

Never-the-less, my argument was far more solid than any contradiction he made.

Case in point, you don't need to have a degree in music to formulate an opinion on whether you like something or not. The only thing a greater knowledge of it can give you in this circumstance is a better fundamental understanding of what goes into it. Just because someone doesn't have that doesn't make their opinion ignorant.

You're arguing a lost battle long before it started.

Simple as that.

Ok, I've realized what the problem is here after reading this post and Inner_Eulogy's most recent post. You both think music is about personal perception, that it is received differently by everyone or at least by many people. This is far from true in the context of what I am trying to get across. If you haven't spent some time studying music, what I'm about to say might seem strange. When looking at each musical element in a song, or a composition, there are actually OBJECTIVE measurements of complexity and emotion that are universally applicable to any and all music. In other words, you CAN be objectively WRONG if you think a song is not complex, because you may not understand the texturing of the rhythm or note placement in the construction of the scales. You may not understand the combination of sharps and flats that result in a melody.

Now, this next part is going to seem even more strange, but it's true. The general emotions you feel when you hear a song (happy/upbeat, mysterious/melancholy, or neither) are determined by the scales used. Because a scale is simply a mathematical sequence of notes, what you feel is essentially determined by whatever math pattern the artist chooses (consciously or not). Tool uses almost exclusively minor scales, which are sequences of notes that make the human brain respond with emotions of uncertainty, suspense, sentimentality, sadness, nostalgia, and a number of other melancholy feelings. The Pot is an exception to this, which is why it sounds a little 'happier' and doesn't get most people as emotionally involved. It utilizes more major scales.

My point is that music is not necessarily subjective to each listener. Each emotion you feel is more or less determined by a mathematical scale structure, and complexity is determined by the combination, construction, and variation of elements (tone color, rhythm, pitch, etc.). You will objectively be made to feel the same way that everyone else does when they hear the same song. The only thing you actually decide for yourself is whether or not you LIKE the emotions that the scales in the song make you feel. Additionally, you can dislike the way a song makes you feel and therefore dislike the song, but you don't get much of an opinion on whether or not it's complex. It objectively is or is not (or is in between), as dictated by the construction of the elements. There actually IS somewhat of a "right" way of understanding music, especially music that is as involved as Tool's. This pretty much wraps up my argument. I'm not sure how else I can make you understand. I always suggest Tool fans to take a music theory class, and I'll suggest the same thing to you both. It will open your eyes in a way you never thought possible.

And if you think I'm just full of shit, I urge you to skim through the following links so you can see that I am not. They will give you an idea of what I'm getting at.

http://www.musiclearningworkshop.com/music-theory-scales.html

http://www.ethanhein.com/theory/scalesandemotions.html

http://74.125.93.132/search?q=cache:bqdcvhjXbacJ:mtg.upf.edu/files/publications/e29495-DEA-sstreich2005.pdf+is+music+complexity+objective%3F& cd=5&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us&client=firefox-a