The setlist doesn't matter to much. I love all the songs they play. Rosetta stoned has really grown on me this tour. That part near the end where they groove for a bit was amazing.
While I don't feel the same frustrations that you do towards this tour, I certainly understand where you are coming from. I don't really agree or disagree with anything you are saying.
I'm not trying to shield the band from criticism, rather, I am just pointing out the attitude that the band most likely has in terms of what they play.
All I know is that I am super excited to see them next week and It will undoubtedly be the best day of my summer.
If your show is anything like mine was last night, you'll enjoy yourself. Despite my gripes with the setlist, I'm not going to shortchange the band on putting on a killer performance...again, my problem isn't directly with hearing the same exact thing 2 years apart, it's wondering why I'm hearing the same exact thing 2 years apart, and the integrity of making the decision to do so.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Timshel
...if you don't like the show, don't buy the ticket. This country is still a capitalist market for the time being. If you feel like Tool is not worth your dollar and someone else is doing better, go support them. Maybe if you hit Tool in the wallet, they'll try harder? Seeing as how that's what many think they only care about.
That only works for those of us with clairvoyance, of which I was not gifted with. It's a catch 22. Want a good seat (i.e. floor, which I get for every concert I go to)? Well, you're gonna have to get it way in advance of knowing anything about what you're in for. Want to wait to see what it's like? Well, you're gonna get stuck in the rafters with binoculars, and STILL pay $40 to do so (or pay a few hundred $$ on scalped tickets). How would anyone anticipate having a gripe with the setlist like this? Though the 10K Days tour did have a somewhat stagnated setlist, at least a few songs were rotated/switched out between legs...and even separate nights on the tour. I don't anyone expected that the setlist would be identical (except for the fact that it's shortened), (in fact I'm willing to venture that virtually everyone here anticipated seeing a setlist that was a departure from 10K Days) or I can practically guarantee you that ticket sales would be much poorer than they have been. When you are buying a product (which essentially is what a concert is) sight-unseen, and have no reasons to expect disappointment, it's difficult to just "not buy a ticket".
Will I be seeing Tool again? Yeah. I'm guessing the next tour will be supporting a new album, and one would fully expect to hear something different that time around...so yeah, I'll be there.
Last edited by dendroaspis; 07-23-2009 at 08:20 PM..
But nothing will top those 3 straight days in '98!!!!!!!!!!!!
Your show list actually illustrates a stem-plot of an average distribution, where the majority of your shows fall right in the middle of your Tool concert-going career. Being familiar with statistics, that glared out at me immediately :D
Your show list actually illustrates a stem-plot of an average distribution, where the majority of your shows fall right in the middle of your Tool concert-going career. Being familiar with statistics, that glared out at me immediately :D
Or it just shows that I've attended about every New England show they've played since 1997 + some others that I took vacation time to see. But you wouldn't know that just by looking at the dates. Or in other words, you don't know WTF your talking about.
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Or it just shows that I've attended about every New England show they've played since 1997 + some others that I took vacation time to see. But you wouldn't know that just by looking at the dates. Or in other words, you don't know WTF your talking about.
Either you're just an asshole, or you completely misinterpreted the friendly nature of my post. I'm not going to speculate which it is.
Or in other words, it wasn't an insult at your "hardcore-ness as a Tool fan".
Last edited by dendroaspis; 07-23-2009 at 08:33 PM..
Well, I have been called an asshole before, but I like to think the person calling me that was actually looking in a mirror.
When I remarked about your show list, it had nothing to do with anything else in this thread...just a friendly, light-hearted comment (which, interpreted properly, couldn't possibly be construed as insulting or malicious, which leads me to believe YOU just had no idea what I meant)...unless of course you're offended by statistics.
Or it is just possible wittle Eulogys butt-hurt that I dared to question the mighty Tool? Guess what, genius? I only criticized them because I like them...if I didn't, I could give a shit what they do. However, I suppose I'm just not at the level of cock-worship fandom that you are. Poor me.
I really enjoy the "they're lazy" argument even though from the 9-10 shows i've seen and all that i've heard via my ears, Danny's drumming is anything but lazy.
compare that to the other ozz-fest show...........sober was the only song played on both of those two ozz-fest shows :). I think that's what people want to see these days. What the don't understand is that back then, they really didn't have the huge stage production they have now.
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I really enjoy the "they're lazy" argument even though from the 9-10 shows i've seen and all that i've heard via my ears, Danny's drumming is anything but lazy.
Being lazy in organizing a setlist and being lazy in actually performing it are two different things. Danny could probably play most of those songs while half asleep, however his abilities don't at all reflect their intentions in playing the exact same songs over and over again years apart. I don't think anyone questioned his playing abilities, or that of the band as a whole. I surely didn't.
In my OPINION, they may have been lazy/non-chalant in organizing the setlist...I surely didn't think they were lazy in actually performing it.
Last edited by dendroaspis; 07-23-2009 at 08:51 PM..
When I remarked about your show list, it had nothing to do with anything else in this thread...just a friendly, light-hearted comment (which, interpreted properly, couldn't possibly be construed as insulting or malicious, which leads me to believe YOU just had no idea what I meant)...unless of course you're offended by statistics.
Or it is just possible wittle Eulogys butt-hurt that I dared to question the mighty Tool? Guess what, genius? I only criticized them because I like them...if I didn't, I could give a shit what they do. However, I suppose I'm just not at the level of cock-worship fandom that you are. Poor me.
You criticize them because they're not doing what YOU want them to do. You act like they owe you something and they don't. You were on here bitching about them even before seeing one of their shows on this tour.
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Last edited by McRoggles; 07-23-2009 at 09:45 PM..
Being lazy in organizing a setlist and being lazy in actually performing it are two different things. Danny could probably play most of those songs while half asleep, however his abilities don't at all reflect their intentions in playing the exact same songs over and over again years apart. I don't think anyone questioned his playing abilities, or that of the band as a whole. I surely didn't.
In my OPINION, they may have been lazy/non-chalant in organizing the setlist...I surely didn't think they were lazy in actually performing it.
Buddy, you're on a Tool forum. This tour isn't bad, it isn't extremely short and as I've said before--it's a mini-tour, they aren't going to go spend a whole lot of cash to build an elaborate stage setting for other songs when they can recycle 10,000 Days material (which is obviously easiest for the band, and most preferred...which is why they are fucking playing it).
If you're going to complain when people call you out on your bitch antics which started up before you went to the show, ask yourself this; "Why am I on a Tool forum?". This site is filled with Tool fans and supporters, if you're not one of them--why bother voicing your opinion here? I don't like hard boiled eggs, I'm not going to hunt down a www.hardboiledeggenthusiasts.com/forum website and then start posting about how I dislike them.
You're allowed to have an opinion and voice it properly, but when you just come to bitch and pick away at posters who know better (such as eulogys), well then you're waisting everyones time.
Last edited by McRoggles; 07-23-2009 at 09:45 PM..
No, your just an asshole. You criticize them because they're not doing what YOU want them to do. You act like they owe you something and they don't. You were on here bitching about them even before seeing one of their shows on this tour.
So being a fan of a band (or any artist) means simply going with everything they choose to do, without question? Sorry, that's called being a fucking sheep.
I was on here questioning the reasoning behind playing a setlist that reeks of being thrown together in the last minute, or simply just being an un-inspired run through the motions. I don't know which, and I even acknowledged that it could be that the band just really, really, REALLY likes playing those same 8 songs for years at a time...though I highly doubt the latter. If I wasn't going to a show on the tour (which I did, yesterday), then I honestly could have cared less what was going on for it.
There have been numerous posters on here that have disagreed with me, but I don't feel the same way about them...because they haven't carried a grudge about my criticism beyond what I was posting. They choose to disagree with my view based on their own merits, and kept it at that. You on the other hand, seem to have taken personal offense, leading me to believe I've hurt your wittle feelings by daring to criticize your favorite band.
Last edited by McRoggles; 07-23-2009 at 09:44 PM..
Maybe its all an art aspect....new artwork, new lights. Like a new painting from Rothko. You know what you are getting, but its just a different approach. I wonder would people still be unimpressed if they took the set and flipped it. Say start with Vicarious and end with Jambi.
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Being lazy in organizing a setlist and being lazy in actually performing it are two different things. Danny could probably play most of those songs while half asleep, however his abilities don't at all reflect their intentions in playing the exact same songs over and over again years apart. I don't think anyone questioned his playing abilities, or that of the band as a whole. I surely didn't.
In my OPINION, they may have been lazy/non-chalant in organizing the setlist...I surely didn't think they were lazy in actually performing it.
Your earlier posts don't reflect this attitude. You should have waited till you arrived at this conclusion before posting. The people here are Tool fans, yes. But they're reasonable people and most are definitely open to varying opinions.
Buddy, you're on a Tool forum. This tour isn't bad, it isn't extremely short and as I've said before--it's a mini-tour, they aren't going to go spend a whole lot of cash to build an elaborate stage setting for other songs when they can recycle 10,000 Days material (which is obviously easiest for the band, and most preferred...which is why they are fucking playing it).
If you're going to complain when people call you out on your bitch antics which started up before you went to the show, ask yourself this; "Why am I on a Tool forum?". This site is filled with Tool fans and supporters, if you're not one of them--why bother voicing your opinion here? I don't like hard boiled eggs, I'm not going to hunt down a www.hardboiledeggenthusiasts.com/forum website and then start posting about how I dislike them.
You're allowed to have an opinion and voice it properly, but when you just come to bitch and pick away at posters who know better (such as eulogys), well then you're waisting everyones time. Now if you don't understand that, you must be an asshole.
Round 3...
If I wasn't a Tool fan, I wouldn't be bothered to post on this forum. I'm not some newcomer to the band either...I have been a dedicated fan for many a year.
However, being a fan doesn't equate to blindly accepting everything they do without question. And yes, believe it or not, it is still possible to be a fan without agreeing or even being happy with every little thing they do. Trust me, as much as the choice of repeating the same thing over may aggravate me, I am STILL a fan of this band, and will continue to be one until they do something completely unacceptable to me (like cover Nickleback...that would be THE END).
Posters who know better? I'm expressing an opinion. Eulogys said nothing that actually proved me wrong, he simply expressed his opinion. By definition, opinions are neither right, nor wrong. And when I innocently made a comment regarding his show list he presents like a badge of honor, his bitterness overtook and HE behaved like an ass.
I'm assuming you think I'm a new/newer fan because I only started posting here recently...well, that is true, I did just start posting here recently...but that's simply because I don't frequent ANY bsnd forums, regardless of how much I like them...while I didn't start posting here till recently, I've been visiting TDN since virtually it's inception.
In any case...if Kabir or any other moderator feels my OPINION is not worthy, they are more than free to edit/delete my posts, or ban me entirely. It'll be no sweat off my back.
Your earlier posts don't reflect this attitude. You should have waited till you arrived at this conclusion before posting. The people here are Tool fans, yes. But they're reasonable people and most are definitely open to varying opinions.
So let's start anew- welcome dendroaspis!
Perhaps the wording earlier was wrong. I was referring to the 10K tour, and what I saw. I'm not saying all shows were like this, because I didn't go to all the shows, but what I saw felt to me like a band who had absolutely no interest in being there. Perhaps I had the misfortune of catching them on an offday...but if I remember the reviews from a lot of other shows of that era correctly, I wasn't the only one who felt that way.
Performance-wise, if I'd heard audio recordings of the 10K days tour, I would have thought it was immaculate. Again, that was not lazy. However, SEEING it, I saw a band that looked like they were just fufilling an obligation...they honestly did not look like they were into their performance at all. And I know I wasn't the only person who expressed that sentiment.
Last night was completely different...the band was on fire, and I've said that numerous times. I wouldn't have been able to tell a discernable difference in their performance last night and 2 years ago from an audio recording, but believe me, I could SEE the difference clear as day.
So being a fan of a band (or any artist) means simply going with everything they choose to do, without question? Sorry, that's called being a fucking sheep. Baaaaaaahhhh to you.
No, it doesn't mean going along with everything they do. Do me a favor and find 1 post on here where I stated that I loved the set list and I'm glad it's the same. I'll save you the trouble, there isn't one. However, I'm able to actual use my brain to think and understand WHY they might be playing the same. That's something you can't seem to wrap your head around.
Quote:
I was on here questioning the reasoning behind playing a setlist that reeks of being thrown together in the last minute, or simply just being an un-inspired run through the motions. I don't know which, and I even acknowledged that it could be that the band just really, really, REALLY likes playing those same 8 songs for years at a time...though I highly doubt the latter. If I wasn't going to a show on the tour (which I did, yesterday), then I honestly could have cared less what was going on for it.
Actually, you weren't QUESTIONING it, you were bitching about it like a spoiled 7 year old.
Quote:
Again, your level of hero worship leads you to believe that they are beyond reproach, whereas a person void of sheep-dom thinks differently. Baaaaaaahhhhh to you again.
It's not hero worshiping, it's going to see a band that makes music I enjoy play it live.
Quote:
There have been numerous posters on here that have disagreed with me, but I don't feel the same way about them...because they haven't carried a grudge about my criticism beyond what I was posting. They choose to disagree with my view based on their own merits, and kept it at that. You on the other hand, seem to have taken personal offense, leading me to believe I've hurt your wittle feelings by daring to criticize your favorite band.
First off, and this might come as a shock to you (and everyone), but Tool is not my favorite band. They're not even the band I've seen live the most. Second, I wasn't carrying a grudge against your criticism or anyone else's. I feel everyone has the right to their own opinion. The problem with you comes down to you coming on here every night making basically the same post. Fine we get it, you don't like the set. You were making comments about them before even seeing them. So much so, you were debating actually not going to the show. What that was telling me is that you would've almost preferred that they didn't come out and play these shows because it wasn't what you wanted. Never mind what everyone else thought, it doesn't meet your ideas of what they should be doing.
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Last edited by McRoggles; 07-23-2009 at 09:43 PM..
Perhaps the wording earlier was wrong. I was referring to the 10K tour, and what I saw. I'm not saying all shows were like this, because I didn't go to all the shows, but what I saw felt to me like a band who had absolutely no interest in being there. Perhaps I had the misfortune of catching them on an offday...but if I remember the reviews from a lot of other shows of that era correctly, I wasn't the only one who felt that way.
Performance-wise, if I'd heard audio recordings of the 10K days tour, I would have thought it was immaculate. Again, that was not lazy. However, SEEING it, I saw a band that looked like they were just fufilling an obligation...they honestly did not look like they were into their performance at all. And I know I wasn't the only person who expressed that sentiment.
Last night was completely different...the band was on fire, and I've said that numerous times. I wouldn't have been able to tell a discernable difference in their performance last night and 2 years ago from an audio recording, but believe me, I could SEE the difference clear as day.
And thanks for the welcome :D
I saw 10K Days 12 times live (not including the recent tour). I don't think I would consider any of the shows uninspired, but they ranged in terms of energy. And given the level they are shooting for each night, some nights fell short. Those nights were simply good, instead of great.
I think we as fans, especially after seeing this last show in Phoenix, need to examine more closely what it is that draws us to this band. Our expectations seem to be a large part of whatever perceived problems exist. I'm not saying Tool don't bear some burden for these attitudes. But I am saying that this last performance in Phoenix validated 100 times over why I am a fan of this band. So what's the real problem?
this threads starting to look live the old live discussion that finally got locked after people argued with each other for crap the hundreds of the rest of us don't give a fuck about.
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this threads starting to look live the old live discussion that finally got locked after people argued with each other for crap the hundreds of the rest of us don't give a fuck about.
Oh, I dunno. That thread at the end involved a few old timers with thousands of posts who thought they'd come in and rain on the parade. I'm personally fine with a little cognitive dissonance as long as it's relevant and sincere. I've never seen a thread closed here that wasn't at least on topic and somehwhat civil. We're not at that point yet and there's no reason to get there. I'm not seeing that big of a gap in opinions if we just take a minute to breathe and show respect.
this whole argument is reminding me of Stinkfist.......just one more song and it'll be better,oh wait a minute...I need just one more....ohhh that's not doing it for me.....do just one more..........
guess that thread did have 184 or so pages too...it was gettin a bit much to flip through
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this whole argument is reminding me of Stinkfist.......just one more song and it'll be better,oh wait a minute...I need just one more....ohhh that's not doing it for me.....do just one more..........
No, it doesn't mean going along with everything they do. Do me a favor and find 1 post on here where I stated that I loved the set list and I'm glad it's the same. I'll save you the trouble, there isn't one. However, I'm able to actual use my brain to think and understand WHY they might be playing the same. That's something you can't seem to wrap your head around.
I too was using my brain to understand WHY they might be playing the same, I just came to a different conclusion than you, genius. What was your preferred reason again? "Because they want to"? That's some really deep pondering there, friend.
Quote:
Actually, you weren't QUESTIONING it, you were bitching about it like a spoiled 7 year old.
You call it bitching, I call it questioning. It's an argument in semantics.
Quote:
It's not hero worshiping, it's going to see a band that makes music I enjoy play it live.
I'll take you word on this one.
Quote:
First off, and this might come as a shock to you (and everyone), but Tool is not my favorite band. They're not even the band I've seen live the most. Second, I wasn't carrying a grudge against your criticism or anyone else's. I feel everyone has the right to their own opinion. The problem with you comes down to you coming on here every night making basically the same post. Fine we get it, you don't like the set. You were making comments about them before even seeing them. So much so, you were debating actually not going to the show. What that was telling me is that you would've almost preferred that they didn't come out and play these shows because it wasn't what you wanted. Never mind what everyone else thought, it doesn't meet your ideas of what they should be doing.
The only reason I've been posting about this continually is because people keep quoting my posts and posting things that warrant a retort on my part, personal insults being among them (and it wasn't just you). Additionally, some people have chosen to either purposely or out of their own ignorance misinterpret my posts and try and construe my argument in a way I didn't intend. Those warranted replies, and clarifications, which led to me repeating myself. A possible flaw perhaps. I even attempted to end discussion by stating that the setlist issues were a moot point for me at this time, simply because the show I was attending had already come and gone...going farther to say that I greatly enjoyed last night and, inspite of my disagreement with the setlist, and would still attend future shows because they'll likely be in support of a new album (at least one can hope), and that the setlist has bound to change by then.
I'll put it this way...agree to disagree, I'll do the same, and we can all go back to being merry little Tool fans again. Running in circles with you was fun for a time, but I think we're both tired of it now.
Dude, you're STILL fucking writing novels about this shit? Aren't you tired yet?
We get it. You really, really, really wish they'd play at least a couple of different songs, or at least fill up the time-gap that Wings left. You can rest easy knowing that we know exactly how you feel.
Though I have to admit, you're pushing on through into flat out hilarious territory, so... keep at it. :)
Speaking of which, we've seen setlists ad nauseam, but how LONG have the shows been? Has anyone clocked the time from when they hit the stage to when they're done?
there's well-placed concerns/gripes/commentary/opinions... and that's fine. But it crosses some sort of line of stupid when you start shoving motivations, attitudes, etc. in the bands "mouth" (so to speak) on a post by post basis.
You're just going to have to get used to the idea that you will NEVER, never nev (unless they give up such info in an interview, which I doubt they will) know whether or not they're "not into it" (a moronic complaint if I've ever heard one, considering how notoriously stoic the members are known for being on stage), "doing if for the cash," etc. etc. etc., and on and on and on and on.
Oh wait, nevermind. You WOULD know the answer to those questions if you listened to the one simple message that this band has consistently put out there since the beginning. (I'll drop a hint... it has to do with treating the music and band as ART first and foremost, and jerking off fans and meeting "expectations" a distant... last. I didn't create the band and their views, so...)
Dude, you're STILL fucking writing novels about this shit? Aren't you tired yet?
We get it. You really, really, really wish they'd play at least a couple of different songs, or at least fill up the time-gap that Wings left. You can rest easy knowing that we know exactly how you feel.
Though I have to admit, you're pushing on through into flat out hilarious territory, so... keep at it. :)
Speaking of which, we've seen setlists ad nauseam, but how LONG have the shows been? Has anyone clocked the time from when they hit the stage to when they're done?
I was done a number of posts back until Eulogy decided he wanted to take an un-instigated jab at me, it wound up being discussed again (did you actually read those posts, or just assume I was going on about it...I was REPLYING to posts that were open-ended in reply to mine), and it's over again...for good this time, I promise :)
It runs a little less than 2 hours...though at least 20 minutes of that is made up of the intermission+ random weird sounds etc.
Actual SONG time...probably around 1:30 or so, give or take a few.
Are they leaving the stage during the intermission? Or are they standing at the front of the stage like they apparently did at the Denver show?
Well, in Phx at least, they all stood side by side, motionless, for a solid 2 minutes. It was... Tool. Maynard left frequently to do whatever throughout much of the show. But the standing thing seems rehearsed and will no doubt continue for the rest of tour (I think)
there's well-placed concerns/gripes/commentary/opinions... and that's fine. But it crosses some sort of line of stupid when you start shoving motivations, attitudes, etc. in the bands "mouth" (so to speak) on a post by post basis.
You're just going to have to get used to the idea that you will NEVER, never nev (unless they give up such info in an interview, which I doubt they will) know whether or not they're "not into it" (a moronic complaint if I've ever heard one, considering how notoriously stoic the members are known for being on stage), "doing if for the cash," etc. etc. etc., and on and on and on and on.
Oh wait, nevermind. You WOULD know the answer to those questions if you listened to the one simple message that this band has consistently put out there since the beginning. (I'll drop a hint... it has to do with treating the music and band as ART first and foremost, and jerking off fans and meeting "expectations" a distant... last. I didn't create the band and their views, so...)
*sigh* This is it, and I'm done :)
By "into it", I don't mean jumping around like Fred Durst and acting like a fucking chimp. I'm familiar enough with this band and have seen them enough to realize that this is not their style.
By not into it, I meant that they gave the vibe (to me at least, and at the show I saw) that they simply did not want to be there. I was not the only seasoned Tool fan who felt this way, and the show I saw was not the only one in which people felt this way...in fact, many people who had been to several shows in the past expressed the exact same sentiment to me, without prompting by me. An opinion? Sure it is. An opinion based on observation? Most definitely. I'm glad it wasn't that way this time around. The band wasn't jumping around like Fred Durst (thank god), but they gave the vibe that they were actually enjoying what they were doing. Clear?
And for the final time before this comes to a close...I was expressing A FUCKING OPINION, not putting words in the bands mouth. I never said they said this, or they said that, I simply questioned motives, and never once said (and quite to the contrary, agreed that I could be wrong) that what I was saying was necesarrily the truth. O-P-I-N-I-O-N.
That's it! :D
Last edited by dendroaspis; 07-23-2009 at 10:46 PM..
Well, in Phx at least, they all stood side by side, motionless, for a solid 2 minutes. It was... Tool. Maynard left frequently to do whatever throughout much of the show. But the standing thing seems rehearsed and will no doubt continue for the rest of tour (I think)
The "standing thing" appears to be part of their intermission this time around, as they did it in Rio Rancho too, and I believe in Utah (though I could be wrong). I actually thought it was pretty cool, for whatever reasons.
