This song is about the grudges of society’s such as Vietnam and the contempt whole society’s hold against others. Throughout this album there are many references to the jewish Kabbalah, and Maynard also states that Saturn ascending refers to the 30 year cycle that occurs in peoples lives, kind of like a mid life crisis. 30 years previous to lateralus’ composure Vietnam occurred as did the main hostilities against the jewish people in the middle east. Choosing one or ten refers to the houses of astrology, either being loyal to yourself (the first house) or your culture (the tenth). “Defining, confining, controlling, and we're sinking deeper.”
In other words, war is our handicap and our intolerance to the middle east has hindered us beyond words.
Another interesting site is http://sun-angel.com/articles/sow/Feb4.html which I think has a lot to do with the album’s timing and meaning.
bear in mind this is an opinion page, i do not claim to be right i only offer my insight.
not sure about the 1/10 part, but in the other thread i posted these two quotes from maynard. obviously some didnt see it.
MJK: Definitely the majority of the record is about re-communication,
about understanding where you are in reference to where you’ve been
and where you’re going. It’s the process of letting go of old baggage
and the evaluation of your place. If you’re into astrology or any of
that kind of stuff, there’s a process called the Saturn Return--your
30-year cycle. It’s something like a mid-life crisis, where you step
back and reevaluate.
MJK: I think we all have, you know? The Saturn Return—I’m not that
fluent in astrology or hocus pocus—but it’s a 28-30 year cycle where
when you’re born Saturn is in one position and it takes approximately
29 years to come all the way back around. It just so happens that it
coincides with the majority of people’s reevaluation of their lives.
It’s kind of a traumatic time, because you’re trying to figure out
who you are and what the hell you’ve been doing for 30 years, and
recognizing patterns. Like, “Why do I keep ending up with these same
people in my life?”—that kind of stuff. Also, for the most part most
of your favorite records are the first three records of a band’s
career. So, here we are on our fourth record. Do we evolve past where
we came from and make it better, or do we fall under the same pattern
that all of our peers have and make the disappointing fourth record?
Wow, this actually makes a lot of sense. I love how everybody ignores the one thing that actually makes some sense.
Oh boy. There's a lot of interesting stuff in this thread.
Yesterday I was at the Barnes and Noble New Age section. I found a book on numerology. I didn't get to read much of it, but I found a chart of "life codes" or something like that. The chart involved the numbers 1-9, 11, and 22. Somehow you were supposed to figure out which number was your "life code" and the chart explained what that meant about you. 1 was individualism. You do things for your own benefit. You give yourself full credit for all your accomplishments. Things like that. 10 was not on the chart. 9, however, was humanitraian, and 11 was illuminartion. 10 could be some sort of stepping stone in between the two, though not mentioned in the book. I don't know. I don't really understand much of this, I just wanted to add a little something to the discussion. Thank you.
I think the whole saturn thing is really about a person who drives a saturn... and I think Maynard just kind of added the whole "mid-life crisis" and "30-year cycle" to it in order to add more meaning and give it a new-age spin.
dude mstajduh, this is great
its true, all the posts anyone could ever possibly post are true
that is because tool is not hidden in what it is
it is a band - or it is a tool
you can listen to it - or you can use it
before i make myself feel important below, if anyone wants to they can email me at [email protected]
the one and the ten probably means just about everything that has been said this far:
one - one person (ego), lowest sephira, narrow extreme
ten - ten people (society), highest sephira, broad extreme
the thing is, its how you relate to the song, not really so much what he is saying i always try to envision myself as maynard thinking about or going through what he went through to inspire the song (which is really a stupid approach i know, but i cant help it) and this song definately feels like an approaching situation or a warning
maybe you can chose one and choose not to see planet x ripping the fuck out of the world (if it ever really happens) or chose ten and become part of the earth so that when the ground falls from beneath you (or the way you perceived reality) it wont humble you so much
or maybe you can choose to see the purpose in the pain saturn brings you (BTW- saturn is associated with A devil, not necessarily THE devil, at least to the degree that i have read) so you can use it to unfold in a new way and move beyond, or you can chose to do what ten other people are doing and kneel, and rely on prayer and miracles, and die.
or maybe when saturn came back around, this time it said to maynard, "look, you can choose to drive one new saturn, or ten old ones, and hold to your decision or you'll be humbled by the sexy new design.
ok its one thirty )am( and im tired
if you want to know why all religeons/philosophies/spiritualities/ideas (and even all possible oppinions on this song) are corrrect perhaps check out the baha'i movement of islam
see you on the nineteenth day of the nineteenth month, in the next 29 or so years
not to diss anyone or tell anyone that they have the wrong idea about a certain topic but it does occur to me that most posters keep the mindset that everything in a tool song has some kind of mystical significance.
i wonder has anyone considered the possibility thats its just another way of saying: "the single, the multitude" ?
might not make sense in context ( im at work and cant remember the actual line from thetop of my head...bad fan riight?)
...ill prepare to be crucified for daring to suggest a tool song may be takenb at face value.
not to diss anyone or tell anyone that they have the wrong idea about a certain topic but it does occur to me that most posters keep the mindset that everything in a tool song has some kind of mystical significance.
yeah, i think people too often go for the more lofty abstract interpretations, overlooking the practical/commonsense side.
Quote:
Originally Posted by mud_soul
i wonder has anyone considered the possibility thats its just another way of saying: "the single, the multitude" ?
might not make sense in context ( im at work and cant remember the actual line from thetop of my head...bad fan riight?)
agreed, and it does make sense in the context (well, to me at least). i think ckm's post about 1/10 being the astrological houses representing self/community is right on the money. fits nicely with the rest of the song.
OK, I am not going to get too detailed in one of my personal opinions about this song... but the 1 the 10 could be in reference to the paths we take.... 1 is the beginning of all sequences of counting... when we count our years, how many people are in a class room.... anything and we end with 10's before starting over again... well the song says..."Saturn ascends, choose one or ten." Maybe it means choose to begin changing or choose the end... This song has a lot of other philosophical references as well... possibly astrology... tree of life... it refers to a small cult that believed that jon the baptist was the messiah, and the believed in a stone that transformed anything into gold. "Give away the stone. Let the oceans take and transmutate this cold and fated anchor.
Give away the stone. Let the waters kiss and transmutate these leaden grudges into gold." Well i am off my soap box...
OH 1 more thing... anyone out there that said that anyone else's thoughts were bullshit.... That is an ignorant statement.... because you are talking about music written by a band that believes whole heartedly in thinking for yourself. If some people say that the song means this to them. Who the fuck are you to argue...
I'm not by any means saying that this is what the line is referring to, (although is very well may be), "Saturn ascends" could be taken in the follwing way: Saturn represents the middle finger in some aspects of witchcraft and magick. Flipping the bird? It doens't flow with the general meaning of the song (or what I think it means) so I don't mean this to be taken seriously. It's simply an amusing coincidence.
its possible that this is a reference to people, and that only one in ten people are aware of the consequences and "the damage done" by their everyday action. Also with the theory of planet 'x' {the possible planet after pluto} it is possible that Saturn is one of ten planets, like the one in ten people, and the comparison is made.
So " choose on or ten" becomes choose for yourself to be the "one" or the "ten"
Well firstly I apologise for not reading every single post here so if what I suggest has been suggested....move on....
With reign3's Mjk quote in perspective, the song to me took on a whole new meaning. Now without scrutinising over every single word in the song, the song to me is seemingly describing the mid-life decisions one makes during such a time of evaluation recognition, recollection etc (apparently Saturn’s ascension or something), yet focussing not over what has happened in the past, but the consequences of what is yet to come, to "hang on or be humbled again", to lift you up, or consume you...
Anyway, my thought...
Another btw, why are so many Australians writing in on this? Or am I naive as to actually how big the fan base is here?.....
__________________ think for yourself...
question authority...
Another btw, why are so many Australians writing in on this? Or am I naive as to actually how big the fan base is here?.....
Funny you should mention that. Approxiamately 2 minutes prior to reading your post, I was chasing 13th Step through every bloody c.d. store here (in Cairns) and they are all sold out. It has only been released here for a day and a half!!! That serves me right for thinking "Nah, surely they won't have a huge fan base up here!!!!".
And that was the same for Lateralus, it was sold out the first day..................everywhere!
So, to answer your question, yes, you and I both were naive!
Regards,
Andy
__________________ Chasing the Trail of smoke and reason
ok... so we know that tracks 6&7 (Parabol/Parabola fit together. What you'll notice, by placing track 5 (Schism) and 8 (Ticks and Leeches) next, the tracks seem to flow together in an eery fashion. Not as tight as the tracks intended to flow, but try it...
So, continuing using this Spral Theory, after track 4 (the Mantra) flows into track 9 (Lateralus), the next step is to have track 13 (Faaip De Oiad) by itself, thus being the linking section between the spirals. And also, it's the total we've been making between track numbers so far, so it stands on its own.
Next, directly after Faaip De Oiad, go to Track 1 (The Grudge) Track 12 (Triad), Track 2 (Eon Blue Apocalypse), Track 11 (reflection) Track 3 (The Patient) and finally Track 10 (Disposition)
I would illustrate another spiral for you, but you can use your finger to do so above. So, the Track order is as follows:
6,7,5,8,4,9,13,1,12,2,11,3,10
Listen for eery sonic correlations in this new tracklist. Listen to the compelling story being told through the lyrics. Also, Here's a little fun tidbit... Track 11 is still Reflection.
And the lyrics of Lateralus (the last song of the first spiral) has the lyrics "Saturn ascends by one by ten" Well, tracks 1 and 10 are the beginning and the end of the second spiral.
I'm not sure if this is new to you guys or not, but I found this from a different forum and had to try for myself. Make sure you're using a good CD player without the pauses between tracks, or even use Editing Software to make sure there's no silence between tracks at all. Let me know what you think of this theory, and if you feel the chills I did when listening to this album in this way for the first time.
Also, let me know if you find any other synchronicities.
Could this have something to do with the title of APC's album? the 13th step???
I had a pretty lengthy post on this called Allusions in Lateralus. You should look at it. It may be archived. I was gonna post a revised version of The Grudge in light of some new findings and I believe this particular song lays down the back drop to, at least in my mind, understand the breadth of this album.
I totally agree with the Saturn - Re-evaluation concept. For me, 1 or 10 has signified either staying on your current path or reaching the next level (when Saturn come back around, or that critical evaluation time). Going on our basic arabic number system (0-9), 1 would be the beginning or current situation while 9 is the end, so streching to the next level yields 10. Just my simple minded thoughts.
I also think this song has a lot to do with the Saturnalia, where all grudges were forgiven and people switched with their servents. any ways . . .
Salaam
__________________ "Well, if it isn't Fido McCoke-fiend!" - Stewie
In indian mythology there are twelve houses of saturn. the first house is all that represents the bad in you, while the tenth is a brand new step into good, maybe that will help yall out.
__________________ "I really can't tell what's happening but it doesn't matter after all sometimes you just have to go with the things that you can't control, No matter how much I want to leave and take the easy way out I just can't seem to consume enough power to pull me through."
I have heard of Saturn associated with the Aquarian Age, if anyone believes in this new age stuff.
"The serpent power of the Aquarian Age is upon us. The Kundalini of Gaia is about to awaken. No one can avoid being affected. Most human beings may go out of their minds; others will go beyond mind."
—John Hogue
In relation to the Grudge, The Grudge is about how silly it is to latch onto one idea and let it take over youre thoughts.
"The shaman seers of the Fourth World generally agree that those who tenaciously cling to the past will fall into mass insanity."
—Also John Hogue
Oh boy. There's a lot of interesting stuff in this thread.
Yesterday I was at the Barnes and Noble New Age section. I found a book on numerology. I didn't get to read much of it, but I found a chart of "life codes" or something like that. The chart involved the numbers 1-9, 11, and 22. Somehow you were supposed to figure out which number was your "life code" and the chart explained what that meant about you. 1 was individualism. You do things for your own benefit. You give yourself full credit for all your accomplishments. Things like that. 10 was not on the chart. 9, however, was humanitraian, and 11 was illuminartion. 10 could be some sort of stepping stone in between the two, though not mentioned in the book. I don't know. I don't really understand much of this, I just wanted to add a little something to the discussion. Thank you.
to get your life code or bith number, it you take all the letters of your full birth name and apply it to this chart.....i think birth # is the birthday(12-11-1999=6)
1 | 2 | 3 | 4 | 5 | 6 | 7 | 8 | 9|****put your name into numbers and add them until
a | b | c | d | e | f | g | h | i |*******you get one single number... keep reading
j | k | l |m | n | o | p | q | r |******the materal if your intrigued, i can be pretty
s | t |u | v | w | x | y |z |*************************************interesting
well i tried to explain but i dont have the hang of the way shit works yet oh well.. keep reading on numerology, its good
__________________ I didnt say it was your fault, i said im blaming you.
Last edited by scattered311; 08-19-2004 at 05:47 PM..
Reason: its a little hard to read
To me the one ... the ten are choices that you can make. Sometimes there are desires that you don't want to give in to. Then you have to choose between two extremes. The next sentence explains a lot: "Hang on (1) or be humbled again (10)". Either you give in to this desire or either you don't. The grudge may be the grudge about yourself here.
I thought saturn is the god of fire. The one who accelerates wich choice you will make.
actually, this is my interpretation of the line. Saturn is the planet that represents a few key things. I will not tell you, you will search for it and find out yourselves. Once you do so, you may think that the one and ten references are describing the choice we will face when it is our time. The tree of Sephirot (tree of life) has ten points on it. One being the base man, ten being evolved pure christ-man. check it out, see if you dont feel the same. It matters not.
dunno if this has been mentioned here, but obviosly the number 13 is important with Lateralus, song and album.
(deleted the post for space conservation, but its fckn great!)
Could this have something to do with the title of APC's album? the 13th step???
im sure you already know, but it has to do with frequencys and octaves... every 13 note is another ocatave... also relates to sacred geometry... but have you tried the opposite spiral in the new song order? just wondering because it would still put parabol before parabola...
im sure you already know, but it has to do with frequencys and octaves... every 13 note is another ocatave... also relates to sacred geometry... but have you tried the opposite spiral in the new song order? just wondering because it would still put parabol before parabola...
I really like that idea with the spiral. I find it interesting how the song parabol/a is the song where enlightenment is reached (according to the video).... that being the source of the spiral.
However the significance of 13 is interesting because in The Book of Belial section V subsection B. You will find "The Thirteen Steps" which are according to The Satanic Bible the steps that are undergone before performing a ritual or ceromony.
Let's connect it all to the bigger picture of "Lateralus", as a whole.
We know that "Lateralus"is about seeing beyond black & white. Choose 1 (Id, only see the basic Black & White), or 10 (Super-Ego, see all the colours).
We can conclue that the Tree of Life is heavily connected. 10 is the ultimate evolution of the self, whereas 1 is still the basic beginning. Saturn comes back around, we have the opportunity to re-evaluate or choices to Hang on (remain at the one, do not evolve) or be humbled again (move foward to the 10. See the big picture).
I think this has been somewhat stated, but I haven't seen anyone connect it to the theme of the album.
Last edited by Smith1228; 10-11-2004 at 11:22 AM..
actually, this is my interpretation of the line. Saturn is the planet that represents a few key things. I will not tell you, you will search for it and find out yourselves. Once you do so, you may think that the one and ten references are describing the choice we will face when it is our time. The tree of Sephirot (tree of life) has ten points on it. One being the base man, ten being evolved pure christ-man. check it out, see if you dont feel the same. It matters not.
I agree, because the lyrics in this song have so many links to Alchemy. The last few lines talks about Transmutating Leaden Grudges Into Gold. Or, in Alchemy, The transmutation of Lead into the Gold, The Philosophers Stone. This transformation takes a base metal (Lead) from its lowest form (1) to its highest and purest form, 10, which is Gold. In turn, this would initiate its creator from his current form, to his highest form. You need to do some reading on Alchemy to understand why this happens. Those of you who are interested in this song, please go to Google and type in Alchemy, you will be amazed if you start reading into it. BTW, in Alchemy, the metal that Saturn rules is Lead. Trust me, do some reading about alchemy.
Last edited by Lateral Us; 10-27-2004 at 05:32 PM..
Eulogizer's interpretation of the "choose one or ten" line seems by far the most logical. All this talk about the Tree of Life and binary numbers are just bullshit.
Quote:
Originally Posted by paraflux
What do you call the tree of life superimposed over the man on the cover of the Salival boxset? Bullshit?
I'm sorry but I believe your interpretation of the Tree Of Life is incorrect.
First of all Sephiroth, according to The Qabalah means numbers or more specifically the numbers 1 - 10. Each number corresponds with all phenomena in such a way (i'm quoting Crowley now) that their arrangement in the tree of life is a map of the Universe.
Your idea of a base man and a more evolved man sounds more like a nietschze theory, but this has nothing to do with the Tree Of Life.
Now according to the Qabalah 1 is an undefined point, a starting point perhaps? !0 is "Itself fulfilled in its complement, as determined by 7, 8 and 9" Crowley, "The Book Of Thoth" pge 32 etc, etc..
I dont think the reference in the song has anything to do with the Tree Of Life and everything to do with astrology (well I thought it was obvious)
So.... Lets delve into some astrology.
Saturn is the ruling planet of Capricorn and is traditionally associated with limitatoins and boundaries. If Saturn is badly placed in your star sign it can dampen or obstruct positive feelings or actions.
Another factor in astrology is the 12 houses that your zodiacal sign is divided into.
I think the lyrics refer to Saturn and the houses one and ten.
The first house refers to your personality, temperament and general attitude towards life. The tenth house refers to ambition, progress and responsibility (the tenth house is also associated with Saturn).
I think all these factors add together to emphasise the idea in the lyrics of two arguing parties who wont see things from the others point of view, causeing them to remain ignorant, and therefore holding a grudge against each other.
Sorry for going on but I got on a roll, I hope this all makes sense, and is technically correct (please correct me if you think I'm wrong :)
-Wow, I actually was scrolling through these posts to see if anyone was going to come to that conclusion, about the houses, and the fact that saturn is the planet of KARMA according to astrology..
because that is EXACTLY how I interpreted that!!
(although i do recognize that Maynard might not have intended this meaning, thats what I got out of it...although he really might have, haha..but its all just speculation in the end, right?)
way to hit the nail on the head ;)
Last edited by Third Eye 580; 12-05-2004 at 05:28 PM..
Reason: RIGHT!!
It is pretty obvious i think that the tracks of Lateralus have a "one-by-one" connection with the sephira of the qabalistic tree of life.
One of these connections someone could make is the one in which The Grudge corresponds to the Kether which is the first (1) sephira of the tree of life.
The tree of life runs against the tree of death which is the same symbol flipped.
In the last one Malkuth (10) is where Kether was.
What about choosing? Due to manichaeistic reasons tree of death represents bad things and tree of life represents good things.
I think of lateralus as a tool which can be used the one or the other way. You will choose from the start of the path if you want The Grudge to represent The One or The Ten, The Kether or The Malkuth etc ... simplifying .. etc .. simplifying .. etc .. simplifying .. etc ..
im not so sure about the 1/10 theories posted here as im relatively new to this forum(im fed up with toolarmy) and i will not post my own theories as it would take waaaaaay toolong to typ in, but i will say that when maynard sings it i've always thought it sounds a lot more like this:
Saturn ascends, choose one or ten. hang on or be, im bored again.
and to be totally honest it makes more sense to me, think about it.
__________________ [color=red]========CONFIDENTIAL========Read Every WordDangerous========CONFIDENTIAL========{/color]
Knowledge Lies Within
You take drugs danny?
every day
good... so what's the problem?
Dont really know much about whats going on with the astrology/kabbalist side of things here, maybe thats pretty accurate but one thing no one ever seems to suggest is that maybe the line was just added cos... it rhymes and sounds kind of mysterious. Its an unfourtunate thing to say but I don't think you can attribute significance to every single line of Maynard's lyrics. I'd be pretty fucking surprised if at some point in at least one song, there was not a lyric that was only there because it correlates generally with the theme and rhymes. Sorry to say it. I'm not entirely attributing that to this line, just a thought.
__________________ for God is in the woodwork, and he isn't for the dreamers...
Dont really know much about whats going on with the astrology/kabbalist side of things here, maybe thats pretty accurate but one thing no one ever seems to suggest is that maybe the line was just added cos... it rhymes and sounds kind of mysterious. Its an unfourtunate thing to say but I don't think you can attribute significance to every single line of Maynard's lyrics. I'd be pretty fucking surprised if at some point in at least one song, there was not a lyric that was only there because it correlates generally with the theme and rhymes. Sorry to say it. I'm not entirely attributing that to this line, just a thought.
i always think that too.
thats why i never come to this section.
theyre like ¨maynard said shit¨, it means this...... and they post a 10 page essay on the occult.
Nah not for shit, thats the beauty of it; everyone has their own interpretation. I think one of the main reasons Maynard is such a good lyricist is because he does not present you with immediately decipherable lyrics that insult your intelligence, they make you think and hence people start to write ten page essays on the occult. That is a good thing, it doesnt matter if it is true or relates in anyway to what Maynard meant. If we knew what the fuck the lyrics were about because they were shallow/he'd told us; they'd generally suck a lot more.
__________________ for God is in the woodwork, and he isn't for the dreamers...
...You'll see this makes sense as you understand binary notation, computer algorithms, and lateral logic which is the basis of internet communication (the lines connecting on the back of the black sleeve).
01010100-01101111-01101111-01001100
Sorry to pull up this old stuff, and this isn't exactly relevant, but where are these numbers coming from off the back of the black wrap? I can't find anything.
Those numbers are a binary sequence of numbers that if you use the correct decoder key, it will unlock the message (that I myself made up). It's not actually on the CD itself. Hehe. I just used the binary language as an example of what 'hidden meanings' can lurk within numbers, such as 1 and 10.
No — I've heard other people mention that; it's binary numbers that spell "TooL" which I think is a load of crap. Just seeing if someone could clarify.
