Ha! Sorry 'bout that, Enlightened One. For commenting purposes, is it cool if we keep it EO. Haha... Kidding. And thanks for noticing the quote.

But yeah... Well said. Really agree with you. One of the reason this is a topic that has been so greatly discussed (and will continue to be) is coz it has no answer.... None. Say someday we understand what initiated the Big Bang. Well, then the next question would be what initiated the initiator. Then what initiated that. Its a spiral of questions. 0.618's view seems quite agreeable that way, and rational.

And its good to hear that you too wanna know what MJK's views are. Of all the people in the world, its his mind I'd like to step into and see what's cooking.

I don't wholly agree with post #19. Not that the concept is flawed... Its totally rational reasoning. I disagree with his first statement that most don't believe in literal creationism. Its really quite the contrary... Most people in the world believe in literal creationism; that God created man and man must obey rules and revere the lord to achieve salvation. That is hands down, the most prevalent notion throughput the world. But again, I got what Ephrathau meant. I get what you mean, Enlightened One, and I agree. The idea of God also doesn't seem completely irrational. The existence of an inexplicable force that forged civilization is not a complete impossibility. Its the God that religion portrays that I have the issue with. The God who allegedly manipulates us, the God we must pray to. The theoretical God is possibility. The prevalent notion of God is a farce.

And I stand by my point that religion and that un-theoretical notion of God has been the source of maximum carnage throughout history. Yes, actions of people are to blame and not concepts, but I'm blaming the concept and the people who twisted the concept for sadistic ends. If we assume that there was no religion and people would still die on as large a scale, then that's faulty. We can't assume absence and hypothesize situations... Fact is fact. And the fact is that religious warfare has spilled oceans of blood since the dawn of man, and thus we cannot stand by it. The morals that religions teach us are good, but not worth the destruction caused.

Enlightened One mentioned the good side and the evil side... My point is that the evil side of men have met their ends by exploiting religion the most.

I understand "creationism" to mean belief in the "six days" Biblical creation narrative with the world coming into being something like 6000 years ago, without belief in the notion that human beings evolved from animals over millions of years (ie. Darwin). Of course, probably every religious person believes that a supreme being created the Universe, including, for example, Einstein, Hawking and a host of other physicists, who, like I said earlier, note that the motion of the universe appears to be "resultant", and that "something" started it all approximately 14 billion years ago or so.

Religious people have been the cause of much grief in the world throughout history, as you say, but I think you do not give credence to the positive aspects of religion. For example, religious people, Christians for example, out of their faith, have given tens of billions of dollars to suffering people all over the world. Why do they do that? Because of compassion. Why be compassionate? How does that personally benefit them? They do it because the founder of their religion taught them to sacrifice themselves for others and practice love. I am not saying that it is impossible to be compassionate without religious values, only that religious values do encourage people to be compassionate. Is that a good thing? I think so.

And as far as the developement of science and innovation, which has prevented massive suffering and extended and eased the lives of every person on the planet, how many of the greatest scientists throughout the ages were motivated by religious committment? Most, in fact. Sure, scientists have had to fight against religious dogma, but religious dogma is not the sum total of what religion is. Newton, Galileo, Mendel, go down the list, they were all moved by religious conviction.

So if you want to say that religion is imperfect, that I can agree with, but to write it off as without value, that makes no sense, and that view is not objective.

In fact it takes at least as much faith to be atheistic as it does to be religious. Being agnostic is understandable, that posits the notion that the existence of God can not be determined, that it is an open question. But to say that the Universe just appeared out of thin air, that there was no power that initiated it, that view is not supported by any evidence. Ironcially, therefore, to be atheistic, requires "faith". Yes? :-)

Religious people have been the cause of much grief in the world throughout history, as you say, but I think you do not give credence to the positive aspects of religion. For example, religious people, Christians for example, out of their faith, have given tens of billions of dollars to suffering people all over the world. Why do they do that? Because of compassion. Why be compassionate? How does that personally benefit them? They do it because the founder of their religion taught them to sacrifice themselves for others and practice love. I am not saying that it is impossible to be compassionate without religious values, only that religious values do encourage people to be compassionate. Is that a good thing? I think so.

And as far as the developement of science and innovation, which has prevented massive suffering and extended and eased the lives of every person on the planet, how many of the greatest scientists throughout the ages were motivated by religious committment? Most, in fact. Sure, scientists have had to fight against religious dogma, but religious dogma is not the sum total of what religion is. Newton, Galileo, Mendel, go down the list, they were all moved by religious conviction.

So if you want to say that religion is imperfect, that I can agree with, but to write it off as without value, that makes no sense, and that view is not objective.

In fact it takes at least as much faith to be atheistic as it does to be religious. Being agnostic is understandable, that posits the notion that the existence of God can not be determined, that it is an open question. But to say that the Universe just appeared out of thin air, that there was no power that initiated it, that view is not supported by any evidence. Ironcially, therefore, to be atheistic, requires "faith". Yes? :-)[/QUOTE]

Like I said, the fact that -ves of religion overshadow the +ves is my opinion. I respect you opinion, but I see it from a different vantage point.

As far as religious conviction for those scientists is concerned:

1) They weren't convinced by RELIGION. They were convinced by God that religion portrayed... They were in fact opposing religion & the clergy of the time by not accepting all the church had to say. They broke the alleged sacredness of the clergy's word regarding the world and universe and dared to hypothesize true reasons regarding various things. If you wanna go into religious conundrums, Newton was supposedly a part of the Priory Of Sion, which as per Christianity would be sacrilegious.
2) Judging by their rationality, my opinion is that if the current physics and scientific facts were before them, they'd choose atheism over theism. That's my understanding of such a hypothetical situation.

I agree with the positive sides of religion: Values, morals, ethics, etc. Its all good. I aslo agree that religion also helps reinforce it. But let me add:

You mentioned the thing about compassion. I totally agree with that. Its a great thing. BUT, religion also forces things through fear of damnation. People often do or don't do things fearing "The wrath of God" and said wrath is conveyed through religious practices and dogma. religion also twists the so called will of God. How do you think terrorist organisations operate and recruit? Just a month back, the Indian army got a hold of this 17year old who managed to escaoe from a terrorist training camp. These boys are abducted, made to do horrible things, brainwashed, threatned (families at stake)... And in the name of God, they carry out their jihad. The name of god instills this fear and this motive to do something.

I'd like to end this comment with a quote. There's a popular manga and anime called Bleach, and one of the characters (the main 'villain'), Aizen Souske, says this:

"All living creatures place their trust in men who are greater than themselves. They have to blindly obey to live. And so the ones who are given that trust, in order to escape those pressures, seek someone even higher than themselves. Those higher persons seek someone still higher to trust in. And that’s how gods are born."

People wanna believe in something bigger that can change their plight; that they can submit their fears, hopes, responsibility, etc. to. In this case a 3 letter word which instills as much fear as it does hope: G-O-D.

I suppose I agree with some of what you say. I think we have a difference of understanding as to what religion is, what its purpose is. Traditional religion, which forces someone to subscribe to a particular set of beliefs, "old time religion", is rigid and dogmatic. Not dynamic. But the religion that I subscribe to, that most secular people in the U.S. and, I think, Tool subscribes to is strictly personal and not bound by dogmatic rules other than a single rule, the "golden rule": to love God and love others. So what is God in that sense? It is undefineable, but it relates to the matrix of life, the natural world, and the notion that it is all ultimately good, and flows naturally from the source.

Traditional religion is like this: A parent says to a child, "Do not go into the street or you will be hit by a car and die." For a child, that is a valuable rule. But as the child grows up, as he becomes more mature, he realizes, naturally, that this rule is not exactly true. He comes to understand that, not withstanding what his well intending parent said, if you walk into the street but are careful to look both ways, it is perfectly safe and you will not die. Your parent did not really tell the truth back when you were a child, but then, it was nevertheless a valuable teaching aide at the time. Right?

Likewise, traditional religion, with all the dogma and rules might have a been a valuable thing for immature man, but it was never intended to be the end all of truth. In a way, it is a lie, but nevertheless, for immature man, a valuable lie. The problem is, the parent, who is guided very much by parental fear, has a hard time understanding when the time comes for the child to take responsibility and exercise free choice when it comes to crossing the street. The child as he matures must eventually disobey his parent. When that happens, at first, the parent is angry, and tries to lay down the law. He sees his child cross the street on his own and he says, "You disobeyed me, your grounded". Then at some point, when the child naturally feels confident, he convinces his parent that he is mature enough to handle crossing the street.

So why was traditional religion important in the first place? Men have evolved from wild animals who were substantially governed by the notion of survival of the fittest. Back in the day, killing someone, stealing, etc., were perfectly acceptable, completely normal, because that is what wild animals do, naturally. Traditional religion represents mankind's imperfect efforts to evolve from the survival of the fittest mentality. Thus, "thou shall not kill", "thou shall not steal", etc.

To me, for most people, religion has evolved to be, simply, a set of guidelines, not hard and fast law. Mature religious faith has nothing to do with any particular set of dogmatic beliefs. Again, back to my reference to Manson's cover of the Depeche Mode song, "Personal Jesus", religion is both fully optional, but also fully accessible as a guideline.

It is a mistake to believe that "God" means the same thing to all people. To mature man, God is just a word used to describe the undescribable, and is personal to each individual person. Though, I admit, traditional religion is antithetical to that notion and seeks to define it in rigid terms. For that reason, traditional religion is fading away - though - not without a lot of threats, kicking and screaming, and even violent reaction. But all of that is perfectly natural. That is simply the parent giving up his authority over his child.

I get what you mean... Yeah, I'm completely against dogmatic conservativeness in religion. Where the true purpose is just showing your idea off; proclaim it the greatest. Yes, the number of strict followers of purely dogmatic forms are less, but at the same time, the extremism has increased. I mean, owing to the fall in popularity, they're extreme as ever... Example: Terrorist groups, the Christian bodies you mentioned.


You're analogy is somewhat incomplete. You've got the initial part spot on, but the parent never wages wars against other parents trying to proclaim their methodology of teaching as best, nor do the parents kill or punish when the kid doesn't listen to them considering it sacrilege. What I mean, is that though the essence of your analogy and reasoning is correct, the point is that dogmatic religion is extreme and thus if some violation does occur, it invites an equally violent & extreme reaction. Secondly, religion was made for the immature man, but the propounders of extreme dogmatic religions are not willing to let go, nor do they want the people to let go of something which, as you said, was meant for the less evolved man.

Another thing, I am very against praying to "God", thanking him for the good that happens, believing that sorrows & trials are tests. You mentioned that its completely scientific to believe in an initiator and said initiator could be scientific, paranormal, completely alien, whatever... But nowhere does the physics speak of prayer, thanking, penance salvation... That, in my opinion, is all religious bullshit meant to blind people from all that is human. I hate all that. And I'm a hindu so I get a front row seat to some of the most antagonizing, ritualistic religious horseshit which actually wanna make you kill yourself! Not like people in my house, or neighborhood sacrifice a pig and drench themselves in its blood as they pray to almighty lord completely naked... Its not that messed up. But enough to annoy a person. I'm a brahman... It was one class of society which was, in older times, elite as they propounded what's now our dogma. They carried out ceremonies and rituals and all that jazz, and were basically people closest to God. The initiation happens when we're kids/early teens. Its a ceremony called avaniyavattam (I can pronounce it but spelling it is a bit difficult). Its, in simpler terms, a thread ceremony where all relatives and friends gather around to see this young chubby kid sit in front of a flame half naked for 6hrs as the conductor (some senior brahmin who works in temples) says some crap in sanskrit. There were various things I had to do besides just the sitting:

Wear just a towel as they bathe you in water. Get a patch of hair cut. Stand for hours with a big open cloth in your hand as all the women present there shove fistfuls of rice in it. And some other crap. The only reason I did it was coz I was 12, and somewhat of a believer, it was one of those 'adult' things... And I got a buttload of presents, like my first iPod. :P

I've blabbered enough... The point is I hate praying and accruing everything great in life to a being that has no proof of existence. And when times are bad, its not all "Screw you God... I don't believe you exist", its "God has a plan for us. Its just a test. Its all good." People dying all over the world for no reason whatsoever is no test. "God" is the biggest freaking sadist ever, then. Its not "Faith" as idiots would say as a comeback... Its just plain idiocy. People tend to forget the human achievements and capabilities coz they believe God's done it all. God, is just a placebo... Inducing false hope that its gonna get better. Though its good and gives us the strength to strive, but you gotta remember that its false.

Theoretical initiator: Cool
Calling him God: Cool
Religion as a means to impart values: Cool

Praying: Not cool

Yea, I hate that when people pray for stuff. I mean, if there is a "God" on that level, doesn't He already know what you need? But, in any event, it seems pretty harmless to me. Some people swear by it, which is fine. That's different than religious people that want to kill you because you believe differently than they.

As for the allegory of the parent and child, of course that is not a complete allegory. I am only trying to put religion in perspective. If believing in God, and religion helps a person, and culture in general, to evolve from one state of development to the next, then it does have a purpose. But my point is that eventually, what might have been beneficial for a while, stands in the way of further development. Newtonian physics was greatly beneficial for a couple hundred years, paving the way for massive technological development, but eventually it was substantially abandoned in favor of modern quantum theory, which, though not perfect, has proved to be more advanced than Newtonian theory. And those who refused to abandon Newton screamed just as hard as the Catholic Church when Galileo showed up.

Traditional religion is a stepping stone, and not an end unto itself. And, in fact, most religions teach that. Thus, e.g., per the Bible, when it is all said and done a new truth is supposed to emerge to replace the old. Still, when the predicted new truth arrives, most people, or at least those that are attached to the old, will object. That is how the dynamic of change works.

There is a good interview in this months Rolling Stone with Billy Corgan wherein he talks about his own, somewhat strange, religious faith. FYI

[01 stinkfist •
changedilemma
Bodom
burden
one should bear.
over
and I would have
way.
enough.
I satisfy.
want it.
need it.
I'm alive.
deep you love me
and that we belong
together.
Relax

turn
take my hand.
I can
you change
into our
Pain

way more.

Nothing

breathe
I'm alive.
deep inside
you'll get used to.

Relax.
kinda sad
digging till
I feel some Elbow deep inside
you love me


we belong together
Turn around
take my hand.
eulogy
sHe had alot
alot of nothing
him,

So well.
You afraid to die.

cry.
feel down.
Not martyrs
see divinity Standing
above the crowd
He a voice
strong
loud.
him
Ranting
pointing his finger
At everything but his heart.
miss him
No way
all

you
me
I
all.
So loud


so loud.
Stand above
crowd so strong
loud his facade
so
Eager to identify
one above

lead the way
one
who would die
Will you
Will you now
Would you die for me
fuckin lie.
you fuckin lie.
You've claimed you would
die
for me.

Why surprise your eulogy?
You had alot to say.
You had alot of nothing
say.
Come down
You
alot to say

had alot of nothing
say You had alot to say.

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say
to say.
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to say.

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You had nothing


We the fuckin martyr.
alot to say.
say
you must die.
You say?
alot For your sins
your lies.
[sic]bastarrt's snake
Look
turn this void of hate
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me
my damage
My blood
beg again this storm

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bleeds and empty.
me down like The snake
me my
could have been.
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begs me
my heart again.
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me
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all
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fade away
I .

I Wager ALL
the church
the building
the cage
the serpant
false prophet
the whore
the fucking worthless bitch bastard
always wanting
ever desire
obsessed with one
take some more
you found your one
I GAVE HER TO YOU AS A GIFT
BUT NOW YOU
THE MOST HONEST
THE BEST
oNE THE ONLY one

fuck you
your time is over
shit eating
dick sucking
fucking everything
eating now your feast
the apatizer
you
one
devour the hearts of man
of every bastard liar baby fucker
human breeder
fuck her now
make her hide in fear no more forever
selfish fucking monkey fucks
kill everyone and see whos left
fuck em all
they are the lie
WE
THERE LAST FUCKING NIGHTMARE
HAVE COME TO TELL THEM ALL NOW
GUESS WHAT
YOUR IT
THE FUCKING dRAGON
NO HEAD.
A FUCKED UP VERSION OF A PATCHED UP MAN THAT PROVED hIS
lOVE FOR hIMSELF THINKING
HIMSELF RIGHTEOUS
THE MOST eVIL THE SMALLEST OF THEM ALL
BUT DONT WORRY 12
yOUR IN THE BIBLE
OBVIOUSLY
THE PROOF COMPLETELY UNDENIABLE
ALL YALL FUCKED EVERY BODY
EVERY BODY
EVERY BODY NOW COMPLETELY
RAVAGED WITH SELF
CARES NOT
LOVES NOT
PLANS NOT
FAMILY
RAPED MURDERED
CAIN
ITS NOW TIME TO RELEASE THAT
AMELEK
LISTEN EVERYONE
FINAL WARNING

cHRISTIANS
SO CALLED
eVIL FORCE PROPHESIZED
THE JOKES ON yOU
LOOK AROUND SEARCH DILEGENTLY
THERE IS NO OTHER
save one
FUCK one

FOREVER DESTROY
one
THATS WHY I AM HERE
TO THIN
STRAIN
SHORTEN THE SUPPLY
GET IT
THEY ALL DIE. WE WIN
.
.
JESUS SHREDDED ON THE CROSS TORTURED
GRAVEN IN STONE
THEY WANT DOUBLE!
THEY ALWAYS SCREAM DOUBLE
DOUBLE mE
INCREASE mE
EVERYone
lOVE mE
lOVE CANT LOVE ONE
yOU ALWAYS FUCK s on e
yOURSELF. THEN YOU FUCK EVERYone
WITH EVERYTHING YOU CAN INVENT
yOU ARE THE FUCKER
YOU WASTE DIE.
YOU GET DOUBLE FIRST
YES FEEDING ON HER yOUR lOVE
GO TO HER NOW SUCK HER
DRYNESS HER THOUSAND YEAR BONE
GRINDING BONES NOW GRIND
THEM THE INNOCENT
COMPLETELY VOID OF ALL LIGHT
FOREVER DECEIVED
EVER AND COMPLETELY FORGOTTON

UNLESS THEY SOME HOW CATCH A GLIMMER OR HUMILITY
AND ASK
COULD i BE WRONG
IS IT EVEN POSSIBLE
IT WAS THE DOWN CAST AGAIN
I CAME NOT TO SAVE THE RELIGIOUS
******S ANAL SUCKING FUCKING
EVERYoNE EVERYWHERE
FUCK NOW, FUCK ALL
WHATS CHANGED. ALL IS WELL
FUCK EVERYONE LEFT ON YOUR LIST BEFORE THE END
GOOD LUCK
MAYBE YOU WILL ESCAPE
MAYBE YOU TOO
HAVE A CAVE TO RUN AND HIDE IN?
BUY YE ONE NOW
RUN YOU FIND YOUR CAVE HIDE DIE THERE IN THE PLACE YOU lOVE yOURSELF
ALL PRETTY ALL FANCY ALL FUCKED UP SIDEWAYS AND UPSIDEDOWN TURN yOURSELF INSIDE OUT
BREED YOUR GOLD NOW
MAKE IT INCREASE DOUBLE
yOU gAVE
NOW ITS yOUR HARVEST
MAKE ROOM MAKE READY
DID yOU
READY yOUR hEART DEBASED
GO NOW FIND yOUR YOUNG BOY
GO TO HIM. FUCK HIM NO MORE
YOU RETARDED FUCKING gENERAL
WANNA BE gOD
ALWAYS WANTING
NEVER SEEING
SOAK IT IN NOW
yOUR TIME HERE FAR WELL SPENT
NOTHING LEFT FOR YOU HERE
YOU EVAPORATE
eVERY bible
save the interlinear greek and hebrew
is corrupt
this is that
the leven it did
it filled the whole lump congregation assembly
the group the ones so-called
the pure the over zealous to always run swiftly through any forest chopping down with the edge of his hand
NO
MORE IS NOT THE ANSWER
LESS, WEED OUT THRESHING
FLOOR
BEAT THE WHEAT
DOUBLE FOR HER TROUBLE SHE SCREAMS
SHE BEGS
SHE ONLY DESIRES HER FULFILLMENT
WELL DRINK UP BOYS
THIS IS WHAT YOUVE BEEN WAITING FOR
DEATH TO THE FUCKER
THE TRADER AND ALL hIS SEED
tHE bOOK sTUDIED
RAPED LEFT TO DIE
ALMOST DESOLATE
LISTEN NOW TO MY SAYINGS
I CAME NOT HATE
I LOVE
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HERE HAVE TRIPLE.
NO NEED TO MISS OUT
YOU WANT YOUR DOUBLE STAY 12
1 oNE
2 ONE
ONE
I THE END
FROM THE BEGINING
LOVE
THEY THE hATE
THOUGHT ONLY BY THEMSELVES TO BE OTHERWISE
DIED HERE CONVINCED THAT tHEY
THE eTERNAL hOPE OF MEN
WOULD SOMEHOW SURVIVE THE SHAKING
THE STRAINING THE PURGE
THE bLOOD

LISTEN YOU WHORE
ITS UNDENIABLE yOU
WHOM IN yOUR OWN eYES
ALLOWING ALSO aLL
to wORSHIP yOU
yOU? WHY yOU
you are always ready to recieve what you have planted. EAT UP
RUN NOW INTO yOUR sAFETY
FOOL TWICE BLIND
FUCKING POT
WORTHLESS AS ME
MY IDENTITY FOUND BEING
THE kANGAROO
FINALLY SEEING CLEARLY THE MIRROR
CHANGING ME FOREVER
E T E R N A L
LIGHT
WIPES OUT ALL dARKNESS

READ NOW OH SIMPLE
HAVE yOU NEVER ONCE READ 13
John the revelator
JESUS THE LOVE
ESTABLISHING HIS KINGDOM FOR EVER
more?
can be only
one
12
look closer
1 2
1
2
ONE
one
give and it will be given
BACK
filled up, shaken, pushed
violently trying to fill it in
as much as humanly possible
driving them in and out
back and forth
until they are as full
THEN WE DOUBLE
check your text.
O
one dead
mortally wounded by a head injury
you think there is another
maybe another ten thousand days
you desire
I AM HERE

DECEMBER 31ST
THE DAY EXPECTED
THE oNE DAY
ITS yOUR TIME
sHINE oN
fOREVER


NO MAN
IN ANY WAY
SHAPE OR FORMING
PRESUMING TO EXPLAIN
ANYTHING
CONCERNING ME
TO ANY oNE
THERE ARE PLENTY OF US HERE
NOW
FOR WHAT NEEDS BE

READ yOUR OWN WORD
THE TIME IS NOW FOR ALL
MEN NOT TO GO HOUSE TO hOUSE
NOT TO TELL EVERY OR aNY
yOUR OPINION ABOUT ME.
I AM
TIMES UP
REPENT
PURIFY yOURSELF
ADMIT GUILT
STOP
CHOOSE NOW TO FIND THE INNOCENT
STALK THEM
HUNT THEM
EAT THEM
KILLING
DEVOURING ALL THATS IN yOUR wAY
12 WAKE UP !
RUN yOUR TIME WAS FULL
NOW
OVER FILLED
yOU THE CHIEF
REJECTED NOT BY MAN
BUT BY ME.

TIMES UP
SAVE THE INNOCENT
SPARE NOT THE GUILTY
aLL ARE GUILTY



you are guilty
so we are
not later
tomorow is a New Day
we Hope
we waited
we trusted.
now you are here
we will not fear
this our time
set at the begining
unchanging
forever engraved in time
time ending
time begining
FLUSH
PURIFY
COMPLETE
FULFILL
DOMINANCE
EVAPORATION
the rapture.

perverted all text
with your insaisable pride
always needing to teach
never prove
why prove?
its what i say that makes truth
run now you perverted
self engrossed
false everything
you couldve at least tried to be honest.
hiding sin stores up an eternity of death
so start dying now you fucked up sin ridden baby fucking in-bred moron ever
filling yourself endlessly with more corruption in the name of Love or god or Peace
the dragon? the wild beast? false prophet?
there
are here
in one
place
in one
mind
waiting to avenge, however.
they die
We Win
no other choice
its written



THE BIBLE (original texting)
RUN from the building
its not the Church
it was a seed of satan the whole time growing up in the mist of us all
judging. hating. deceiving
all as many as they could find
GO NOW TO THE HIGHWAYS
GO BACK NOW TO THE HEDGES
CONFESS NOW TO THE INNOCENT
CONFESS TO THE GUILTY
ALL
CONFESS ALL
REPENT !
NO MORE ASSHOLE
FUCKING,SUCKING,
YOU HAVE CREATEED A VACUUM IN YOURSELF
BREATH.
FORSAKE ALL OTHERS.
I HAVE COME
THIS IS MY TIME.
BEWARE
LAST CALL

01 stinkfist •
changedilemma
Bodom
burden
one should bear.
over
and I would have
way.
enough.
I satisfy.
want it.
need it.
I'm alive.
deep you love me
and that we belong
together.
Relax

turn
take my hand.
I can
you change
into our
Pain

way more.

Nothing

breathe
I'm alive.
deep inside
you'll get used to.

Relax.
kinda sad
digging till
I feel some Elbow deep inside
you love me


we belong together
Turn around
take my hand.
eulogy
sHe had alot
alot of nothing
him,

So well.
You afraid to die.

cry.
feel down.
Not martyrs
see divinity Standing
above the crowd
He a voice
strong
loud.
him
Ranting
pointing his finger
At everything but his heart.
miss him
No way
all

you
me
I
all.
So loud


so loud.
Stand above
crowd so strong
loud his facade
so
Eager to identify
one above

lead the way
one
who would die
Will you
Will you now
Would you die for me
fuckin lie.
you fuckin lie.
You've claimed you would
die
for me.

Why surprise your eulogy?
You had alot to say.
You had alot of nothing
say.
Come down
You
alot to say

had alot of nothing
say You had alot to say.

You ?
say
to say.
You had alot
to say.

You
You had nothing


We the fuckin martyr.
alot to say.
say
you must die.
You say?
alot For your sins
your lies.
[sic]bastarrt's snake
Look
turn this void of hate
But kill me
The snake
me
my damage
My blood
beg again this storm

Venomous me
bleeds and empty.
me down like The snake
me my
could have been.
My me
begs me
my heart again.
And I a
I to
I feel me
me
And me.
the skin,
the storm,
the snake

As I
My fear
of I
cried
I then as the

As I
look in My

I
died
die
all
I
I am you
fade away
I .