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brokenv
06-07-2009, 03:03 AM
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First and foremost, I agree the song is about his mummy, but I also think the lyrics have a dual meaning, and also apply in the following:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wings for Marie lyrics
A passionate spirit
Uncompromised
Boundless and open
A light in your eyes
Then immobilized.
this part mimics Gnostic ideas, like the ones found in this text
( http://www.gnosis.org/naghamm/origin.html )

The basic Idea is that 'Samael' is the agent acting as Satan, mostly from ignorance, and is proved wrong with a light.

thus follows....
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wings for Marie lyrics
Broken
Fell at the hands of those movements that I wouldn't see
now the tricky part to follow is this next step. the lyrics are...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wings for Marie lyrics
Yet it was you who prayed for me.
So what have I done
To be a son to an angel?
What have I done
To be worthy?
Samael does indeed pray in the aforementioned text to Pistis Sophia, however I am making a leap that this part is spoken from Samael / Satan's point of view. essentially, Satan's recounting the experience of falling from ignorance and becoming redeemed by *God's* faith in Satan.

The dimmed daylight is the undivine light experienced during the separation from God. Essentially, Satan is following a Left Hand Path to God, whereas instead of denying self will to synchronise with God's will, Satan is purifying self will to synchronise.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wings for Marie lyrics
Please forgive this selfish question, but
What am I to say to all these ghouls tonight?
"She never told a lie,
... well might have told a lie,
But never lived one.
Didn't have a life,
Didn't have a life,
But surely saved one."
Summing the idea so far for some clarity, Satan's fall from grace is a necessary step of spiritual creation, and in this fall, based in ignorance, Satan's experience of redemption is similar to a human's. there are 2 paths to salvation, and Satan's is the successful Left Hand Path.

The selfish question is in itself selfless, what should I say to these ghouls, or impure... the selfishness is asking "what is my role".

Pistis Sophia, or whatever you wish to call the progenitor of creation, is incapable of living a lie, however the duality of being may cause the telling of lies.
Also, this being does not 'live' as in fall from spirit, but certainly saves lives, specifically Satan's.

Quote:
Originally Posted by 10k days lyrics
Listen to the tales and romanticize,
How we'd follow the path of the hero.
Boast about the day when the rivers overrun.
How we rise to the height of our halo.

Listen to the tales as we all rationalize
Our way into the arms of the savior,
Feigning all the trials and the tribulations;
None of us have actually been there.
Not like you.
This is Maynard singing to what I'm calling Satan in this little expo.
Imagine a church of believers following the Left Hand Path, and imagine that that church fails just as much as any other.

I'd say this Maynard trying to keep focus within this sort of congregation.

Quote:
Originally Posted by 10k days lyrics
Ignorant siblings in the congregation
Gather around spewing sympathy,
Spare me.
None of them can even hold a candle up to you.
Blinded by choice, these hypocrites won't see.

But, enough about the collective Judas.
the next bit is the best imo...

Quote:
Originally Posted by 10k days lyrics
Who could deny you were the one who
Illuminated your little piece of the divine?

And this little light of mine, a gift you passed on to me;
I'm gonna let it shine to guide you safely on your way,
Your way home ...
Basically this is following Satan's light or path to union with pure divinity.

You can follow the next set of lyrics as Maynard scoffing at the make-believers who are not essentially following the principle of purifying self in preparation of divine ascension, those who do not know anything but to be distracted by 'light' rather than use it as a tool for self cleansing.

The naming of Judith Marie is the only direct reference to his mum that does not have a dual meaning, imo, even though you could read it as a name of duality, 'Judith' and 'mary' being opposed female forces in one being,

This is a rather crude and narrow interpretation, but I hope it leaves an opening for people to see more duality in the lyrics rather than simply accepting one interpretation.

Cheers.
Old 06-07-2009, 03:03 AM   #1
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Different Interpretation - Satan as song's subject

First and foremost, I agree the song is about his mummy, but I also think the lyrics have a dual meaning, and also apply in the following:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wings for Marie lyrics
A passionate spirit
Uncompromised
Boundless and open
A light in your eyes
Then immobilized.
this part mimics Gnostic ideas, like the ones found in this text
( http://www.gnosis.org/naghamm/origin.html )

The basic Idea is that 'Samael' is the agent acting as Satan, mostly from ignorance, and is proved wrong with a light.

thus follows....
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wings for Marie lyrics
Broken
Fell at the hands of those movements that I wouldn't see
now the tricky part to follow is this next step. the lyrics are...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wings for Marie lyrics
Yet it was you who prayed for me.
So what have I done
To be a son to an angel?
What have I done
To be worthy?
Samael does indeed pray in the aforementioned text to Pistis Sophia, however I am making a leap that this part is spoken from Samael / Satan's point of view. essentially, Satan's recounting the experience of falling from ignorance and becoming redeemed by *God's* faith in Satan.

The dimmed daylight is the undivine light experienced during the separation from God. Essentially, Satan is following a Left Hand Path to God, whereas instead of denying self will to synchronise with God's will, Satan is purifying self will to synchronise.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wings for Marie lyrics
Please forgive this selfish question, but
What am I to say to all these ghouls tonight?
"She never told a lie,
... well might have told a lie,
But never lived one.
Didn't have a life,
Didn't have a life,
But surely saved one."
Summing the idea so far for some clarity, Satan's fall from grace is a necessary step of spiritual creation, and in this fall, based in ignorance, Satan's experience of redemption is similar to a human's. there are 2 paths to salvation, and Satan's is the successful Left Hand Path.

The selfish question is in itself selfless, what should I say to these ghouls, or impure... the selfishness is asking "what is my role".

Pistis Sophia, or whatever you wish to call the progenitor of creation, is incapable of living a lie, however the duality of being may cause the telling of lies.
Also, this being does not 'live' as in fall from spirit, but certainly saves lives, specifically Satan's.

Quote:
Originally Posted by 10k days lyrics
Listen to the tales and romanticize,
How we'd follow the path of the hero.
Boast about the day when the rivers overrun.
How we rise to the height of our halo.

Listen to the tales as we all rationalize
Our way into the arms of the savior,
Feigning all the trials and the tribulations;
None of us have actually been there.
Not like you.
This is Maynard singing to what I'm calling Satan in this little expo.
Imagine a church of believers following the Left Hand Path, and imagine that that church fails just as much as any other.

I'd say this Maynard trying to keep focus within this sort of congregation.

Quote:
Originally Posted by 10k days lyrics
Ignorant siblings in the congregation
Gather around spewing sympathy,
Spare me.
None of them can even hold a candle up to you.
Blinded by choice, these hypocrites won't see.

But, enough about the collective Judas.
the next bit is the best imo...

Quote:
Originally Posted by 10k days lyrics
Who could deny you were the one who
Illuminated your little piece of the divine?

And this little light of mine, a gift you passed on to me;
I'm gonna let it shine to guide you safely on your way,
Your way home ...
Basically this is following Satan's light or path to union with pure divinity.

You can follow the next set of lyrics as Maynard scoffing at the make-believers who are not essentially following the principle of purifying self in preparation of divine ascension, those who do not know anything but to be distracted by 'light' rather than use it as a tool for self cleansing.

The naming of Judith Marie is the only direct reference to his mum that does not have a dual meaning, imo, even though you could read it as a name of duality, 'Judith' and 'mary' being opposed female forces in one being,

This is a rather crude and narrow interpretation, but I hope it leaves an opening for people to see more duality in the lyrics rather than simply accepting one interpretation.

Cheers.
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Kody27
06-07-2009, 09:53 AM
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This is pretty deep, but not too far fetched. I like the Gnostic representation theory, because from what I read from your link, there is also a duality in the interpretation of the Gnostic writings! The duality is not only between maynard's experience with his religion and his mother, but it also exists between Gnosticism and Qabalism (whos themes seem to penetrate the entire album, and Lateralus) if you will:

"These are the seven forces of the seven heavens of chaos. And they were born androgynous, consistent with the immortal pattern that existed before them, according to the wish of Pistis: so that the likeness of what had existed since the beginning might reign to the end."

Imo, these correspond to the seven sephiroth in the tree of life. The Tree of Life is "a mystical symbol used in the Kabbalah of esoteric Judaism to describe the path to HaShem and the manner in which He created the world ex nihilo (out of nothing). The Kabbalists developed this concept into a full model of reality, using the tree to depict a map of Creation."

The "immortal pattern" could refer to the way Qabalists describe the "pattern" in which the universe was formed.

Also, the obvious relation between the "Immortal Father", Pistis (Faith), and Sophia (Wisdom) to that of the corresponding sephiroth on the tree of life.

"After the natural structure of the immortal beings had completely developed out of the infinite, a likeness then emanated from Pistis (Faith); it is called Sophia (Wisdom)."

Keter (Divine Creator/Supreme Total Consciousness) came first, then "He" created Chokmah (Wisdom), which gave way to Binah (Love), which could be interpreted as Faith since some would argue Faith is blind and requires the purity and the power of love to exist.

Excuse me if it seems like I'm getting off topic from the song, but it all comes together here shortly.

This holy pattern is referred to in Gnosticism, but it's worded differently. The general consensus seems to agree that the 17th path on the tree of life is referred to specifically in the album inserts (puzzle pieces?). Which connects Binah (love/understanding) to Tifareth (creative power). This is represented by the lovers, the twins in tarot, and also by the layout of lamps on the wall in Adam Jones pic when compared to Danny's pic with the tree of life hanging in the same spot. To connect, inside your body, your Love to your creative power is the essence of the artist to express himself purely. It's Tool saying, in a more complicated way, think for yourself, be individual and use your mind to connect the right power sources inside your body to produce that which will be known as The Great Work.

Thank you for this boost in interpretations.
Old 06-07-2009, 09:53 AM   #2
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Re: Different Interpretation - Satan as song's subject

This is pretty deep, but not too far fetched. I like the Gnostic representation theory, because from what I read from your link, there is also a duality in the interpretation of the Gnostic writings! The duality is not only between maynard's experience with his religion and his mother, but it also exists between Gnosticism and Qabalism (whos themes seem to penetrate the entire album, and Lateralus) if you will:

"These are the seven forces of the seven heavens of chaos. And they were born androgynous, consistent with the immortal pattern that existed before them, according to the wish of Pistis: so that the likeness of what had existed since the beginning might reign to the end."

Imo, these correspond to the seven sephiroth in the tree of life. The Tree of Life is "a mystical symbol used in the Kabbalah of esoteric Judaism to describe the path to HaShem and the manner in which He created the world ex nihilo (out of nothing). The Kabbalists developed this concept into a full model of reality, using the tree to depict a map of Creation."

The "immortal pattern" could refer to the way Qabalists describe the "pattern" in which the universe was formed.

Also, the obvious relation between the "Immortal Father", Pistis (Faith), and Sophia (Wisdom) to that of the corresponding sephiroth on the tree of life.

"After the natural structure of the immortal beings had completely developed out of the infinite, a likeness then emanated from Pistis (Faith); it is called Sophia (Wisdom)."

Keter (Divine Creator/Supreme Total Consciousness) came first, then "He" created Chokmah (Wisdom), which gave way to Binah (Love), which could be interpreted as Faith since some would argue Faith is blind and requires the purity and the power of love to exist.

Excuse me if it seems like I'm getting off topic from the song, but it all comes together here shortly.

This holy pattern is referred to in Gnosticism, but it's worded differently. The general consensus seems to agree that the 17th path on the tree of life is referred to specifically in the album inserts (puzzle pieces?). Which connects Binah (love/understanding) to Tifareth (creative power). This is represented by the lovers, the twins in tarot, and also by the layout of lamps on the wall in Adam Jones pic when compared to Danny's pic with the tree of life hanging in the same spot. To connect, inside your body, your Love to your creative power is the essence of the artist to express himself purely. It's Tool saying, in a more complicated way, think for yourself, be individual and use your mind to connect the right power sources inside your body to produce that which will be known as The Great Work.

Thank you for this boost in interpretations.
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brokenv
06-07-2009, 03:55 PM
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Excellent ideas, I do think there are a range of modes of interpreting this duality in the lyrics. Qabala, Gnosticism, Jungian, etc all have a mode of

separation, repentance, trial, ascension

which is essentially the story in the lyrics.
Old 06-07-2009, 03:55 PM   #3
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Re: Different Interpretation - Satan as song's subject

Excellent ideas, I do think there are a range of modes of interpreting this duality in the lyrics. Qabala, Gnosticism, Jungian, etc all have a mode of

separation, repentance, trial, ascension

which is essentially the story in the lyrics.
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Inner_Eulogy's Avatar Inner_Eulogy
07-15-2009, 09:47 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by glia View Post
"none of them could even hold a candle up to you, blinded by choices hypocrites won't see".
What I take from it is actually much more simple but to me it just means that most couldn't compare to the faith that she had, she was a true believer and followed the ideals of her faith unlike the hypocrites who call themselves religious and righteous but don't follow the ideals and break and bend the rules while pointing fingers at others.
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Old 07-15-2009, 09:47 AM   #4
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Re: Different Interpretation - Satan as song's subject

Quote:
Originally Posted by glia View Post
"none of them could even hold a candle up to you, blinded by choices hypocrites won't see".
What I take from it is actually much more simple but to me it just means that most couldn't compare to the faith that she had, she was a true believer and followed the ideals of her faith unlike the hypocrites who call themselves religious and righteous but don't follow the ideals and break and bend the rules while pointing fingers at others.
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Th1rd Eye
04-29-2014, 06:40 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wings for Marie lyrics
A passionate spirit
Uncompromised
Boundless and open
A light in your eyes
Then immobilized.


Nah, i personally think u digging far too deep with this one - if you look at these lyrics it's pretty clearcut - His Mother was robbed of life, paralysed and just left to whither away....
Old 04-29-2014, 06:40 AM   #5
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Re: Different Interpretation - Satan as song's subject

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wings for Marie lyrics
A passionate spirit
Uncompromised
Boundless and open
A light in your eyes
Then immobilized.


Nah, i personally think u digging far too deep with this one - if you look at these lyrics it's pretty clearcut - His Mother was robbed of life, paralysed and just left to whither away....
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Th1rd Eye
04-29-2014, 06:42 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Inner_Eulogy View Post
What I take from it is actually much more simple but to me it just means that most couldn't compare to the faith that she had, she was a true believer and followed the ideals of her faith unlike the hypocrites who call themselves religious and righteous but don't follow the ideals and break and bend the rules while pointing fingers at others.
Agreed,
And if you look at the song Judith, you will see how angry he is that she was so committed to her faith yet he blamed what happened to her on her God....
Old 04-29-2014, 06:42 AM   #6
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Re: Different Interpretation - Satan as song's subject

Quote:
Originally Posted by Inner_Eulogy View Post
What I take from it is actually much more simple but to me it just means that most couldn't compare to the faith that she had, she was a true believer and followed the ideals of her faith unlike the hypocrites who call themselves religious and righteous but don't follow the ideals and break and bend the rules while pointing fingers at others.
Agreed,
And if you look at the song Judith, you will see how angry he is that she was so committed to her faith yet he blamed what happened to her on her God....
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