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Inner_Eulogy's Avatar Inner_Eulogy
08-25-2009, 06:31 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by withSpirit View Post
Ok, I've realized what the problem is here after reading this post and Inner_Eulogy's most recent post. You both think music is about personal perception, that it is received differently by everyone or at least by many people. This is far from true in the context of what I am trying to get across. If you haven't spent some time studying music, what I'm about to say might seem strange. When looking at each musical element in a song, or a composition, there are actually OBJECTIVE measurements of complexity and emotion that are universally applicable to any and all music. In other words, you CAN be objectively WRONG if you think a song is not complex, because you may not understand the texturing of the rhythm or note placement in the construction of the scales. You may not understand the combination of sharps and flats that result in a melody.

Now, this next part is going to seem even more strange, but it's true. The general emotions you feel when you hear a song (happy/upbeat, mysterious/melancholy, or neither) are determined by the scales used. Because a scale is simply a mathematical sequence of notes, what you feel is essentially determined by whatever math pattern the artist chooses (consciously or not). Tool uses almost exclusively minor scales, which are sequences of notes that make the human brain respond with emotions of uncertainty, suspense, sentimentality, sadness, nostalgia, and a number of other melancholy feelings. The Pot is an exception to this, which is why it sounds a little 'happier' and doesn't get most people as emotionally involved. It utilizes more major scales.

My point is that music is not necessarily subjective to each listener. Each emotion you feel is more or less determined by a mathematical scale structure, and complexity is determined by the combination, construction, and variation of elements (tone color, rhythm, pitch, etc.). You will objectively be made to feel the same way that everyone else does when they hear the same song. The only thing you actually decide for yourself is whether or not you LIKE the emotions that the scales in the song make you feel. Additionally, you can dislike the way a song makes you feel and therefore dislike the song, but you don't get much of an opinion on whether or not it's complex. It objectively is or is not (or is in between), as dictated by the construction of the elements. There actually IS somewhat of a "right" way of understanding music, especially music that is as involved as Tool's. This pretty much wraps up my argument. I'm not sure how else I can make you understand. I always suggest Tool fans to take a music theory class, and I'll suggest the same thing to you both. It will open your eyes in a way you never thought possible.

And if you think I'm just full of shit, I urge you to skim through the following links so you can see that I am not. They will give you an idea of what I'm getting at.

http://www.musiclearningworkshop.com/music-theory-scales.html

http://www.ethanhein.com/theory/scalesandemotions.html

http://74.125.93.132/search?q=cache:bqdcvhjXbacJ:mtg.upf.edu/files/publications/e29495-DEA-sstreich2005.pdf+is+music+complexity+objective%3F& cd=5&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us&client=firefox-a
LMAO! Wow dude, seriously?

Nobody said that Tool doesn't have complexity in their music. You're worse than a fuckin bible thumper who just doesn't give up trying to convert people that don't fucking want a religion. You are STILL arguing a completely mute point. GET....OVER...IT!!

NOBODY GIVES A FUCK!!!
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Old 08-25-2009, 06:31 AM   #161
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Re: 10,000 days is great?

Quote:
Originally Posted by withSpirit View Post
Ok, I've realized what the problem is here after reading this post and Inner_Eulogy's most recent post. You both think music is about personal perception, that it is received differently by everyone or at least by many people. This is far from true in the context of what I am trying to get across. If you haven't spent some time studying music, what I'm about to say might seem strange. When looking at each musical element in a song, or a composition, there are actually OBJECTIVE measurements of complexity and emotion that are universally applicable to any and all music. In other words, you CAN be objectively WRONG if you think a song is not complex, because you may not understand the texturing of the rhythm or note placement in the construction of the scales. You may not understand the combination of sharps and flats that result in a melody.

Now, this next part is going to seem even more strange, but it's true. The general emotions you feel when you hear a song (happy/upbeat, mysterious/melancholy, or neither) are determined by the scales used. Because a scale is simply a mathematical sequence of notes, what you feel is essentially determined by whatever math pattern the artist chooses (consciously or not). Tool uses almost exclusively minor scales, which are sequences of notes that make the human brain respond with emotions of uncertainty, suspense, sentimentality, sadness, nostalgia, and a number of other melancholy feelings. The Pot is an exception to this, which is why it sounds a little 'happier' and doesn't get most people as emotionally involved. It utilizes more major scales.

My point is that music is not necessarily subjective to each listener. Each emotion you feel is more or less determined by a mathematical scale structure, and complexity is determined by the combination, construction, and variation of elements (tone color, rhythm, pitch, etc.). You will objectively be made to feel the same way that everyone else does when they hear the same song. The only thing you actually decide for yourself is whether or not you LIKE the emotions that the scales in the song make you feel. Additionally, you can dislike the way a song makes you feel and therefore dislike the song, but you don't get much of an opinion on whether or not it's complex. It objectively is or is not (or is in between), as dictated by the construction of the elements. There actually IS somewhat of a "right" way of understanding music, especially music that is as involved as Tool's. This pretty much wraps up my argument. I'm not sure how else I can make you understand. I always suggest Tool fans to take a music theory class, and I'll suggest the same thing to you both. It will open your eyes in a way you never thought possible.

And if you think I'm just full of shit, I urge you to skim through the following links so you can see that I am not. They will give you an idea of what I'm getting at.

http://www.musiclearningworkshop.com/music-theory-scales.html

http://www.ethanhein.com/theory/scalesandemotions.html

http://74.125.93.132/search?q=cache:bqdcvhjXbacJ:mtg.upf.edu/files/publications/e29495-DEA-sstreich2005.pdf+is+music+complexity+objective%3F& cd=5&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us&client=firefox-a
LMAO! Wow dude, seriously?

Nobody said that Tool doesn't have complexity in their music. You're worse than a fuckin bible thumper who just doesn't give up trying to convert people that don't fucking want a religion. You are STILL arguing a completely mute point. GET....OVER...IT!!

NOBODY GIVES A FUCK!!!
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"WITHOUT A LITTLE EVIL, GOOD WOULD NEVER EXIST"
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Inner_Eulogy's Avatar Inner_Eulogy
08-25-2009, 06:33 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by McRoggles View Post
Still....

liking music (or movie or or or) is subjective at all times.

Yes you can appreciate or acknowledge technical objective aspects and think they are good but still dislike it.
lol, EXACTLY.

withSpirit is doing nothing but shitting up the threads and starting arguments with everyone
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"WITHOUT A LITTLE EVIL, GOOD WOULD NEVER EXIST"
Old 08-25-2009, 06:33 AM   #162
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Re: 10,000 days is great?

Quote:
Originally Posted by McRoggles View Post
Still....

liking music (or movie or or or) is subjective at all times.

Yes you can appreciate or acknowledge technical objective aspects and think they are good but still dislike it.
lol, EXACTLY.

withSpirit is doing nothing but shitting up the threads and starting arguments with everyone
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"WITHOUT A LITTLE EVIL, GOOD WOULD NEVER EXIST"
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withSpirit
08-25-2009, 03:31 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Inner_Eulogy View Post
LMAO! Wow dude, seriously?

Nobody said that Tool doesn't have complexity in their music. You're worse than a fuckin bible thumper who just doesn't give up trying to convert people that don't fucking want a religion. You are STILL arguing a completely mute point. GET....OVER...IT!!

NOBODY GIVES A FUCK!!!
All you've done is insult me time and time again, with your expletives and barely-coherent ideas. You don't even know what's going on. You're just yelling things. You can't argue with me, because you're not educated enough, so you just insult and curse at me. Go back to junior high.
Old 08-25-2009, 03:31 PM   #163
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Re: 10,000 days is great?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Inner_Eulogy View Post
LMAO! Wow dude, seriously?

Nobody said that Tool doesn't have complexity in their music. You're worse than a fuckin bible thumper who just doesn't give up trying to convert people that don't fucking want a religion. You are STILL arguing a completely mute point. GET....OVER...IT!!

NOBODY GIVES A FUCK!!!
All you've done is insult me time and time again, with your expletives and barely-coherent ideas. You don't even know what's going on. You're just yelling things. You can't argue with me, because you're not educated enough, so you just insult and curse at me. Go back to junior high.
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Inner_Eulogy's Avatar Inner_Eulogy
08-26-2009, 07:31 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by withSpirit View Post
All you've done is insult me time and time again, with your expletives and barely-coherent ideas. You don't even know what's going on. You're just yelling things. You can't argue with me, because you're not educated enough, so you just insult and curse at me. Go back to junior high.
lol, and I'm the uneducated one?

What a riot
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"WITHOUT A LITTLE EVIL, GOOD WOULD NEVER EXIST"
Old 08-26-2009, 07:31 AM   #164
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Re: 10,000 days is great?

Quote:
Originally Posted by withSpirit View Post
All you've done is insult me time and time again, with your expletives and barely-coherent ideas. You don't even know what's going on. You're just yelling things. You can't argue with me, because you're not educated enough, so you just insult and curse at me. Go back to junior high.
lol, and I'm the uneducated one?

What a riot
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