I actually think it is more than just about sexual abuse. In many ways it is about longing, desire, need... I mean you could use it as a metaphor for any craving, really. That is what I ultimately take out of the song... massive desire for something you know is wrong.
Pretty much sums it up for me. I think it's easy to see how these lyrics allude to child sexual abuse though. It's definitely about having an overwhelming desire to do something that is terribly wrong.
"It took so long to remember just what happened.
I was so young and vestal then,
you know it hurt me."
These lines seem to imply the sexual abuse I speak of. It's not like it has to be about that, but it really seems to point that direction. When a child is abused sexually they often repress the memory, and it can take a long time for your mind to "let" you remember something like that.
"I've got my hands bound,
my head down, my eyes closed,
and my throat wide open."
We could tip-toe around the issue and say this is all metaphor or some kind of analogy, but it seems more obvious here.
"Show me something
Thought I could make it end
Thought I could wash the stains away
Thought I could break the circle if I
Slipped right into your skin
So sweet was your surrender
We have become one
I have become my terror
And you my precious lamb and martyr" (On The Road Mix)
In the beginning of the song he seems to be speaking from the point of view of the victim. Now the roles have reversed. He is now having someone surrender to himself instead of the other way around. Instead of breaking the circle like he thought he would, he came round full circle in becoming that which was his terror (the abuser.)
"I've come round full circle.
My lamb and martyr, this will be over soon.
You look so precious."
Why do you think he says lamb and martyr? Obviously something has been sacrificed by the victim. I happen to think the sacrifice was innocence (virginity) or whatever you want to call it. Something was sacrificed. This is the desire that eats away at the person telling the story, the sacrifice. There is some kind of comfort he finds in taking away from someone what was once taken from him. It's almost as if he looks at this act as a way of getting even.
When he refers to finding sanity in this "Shit, blood, and cum on my hands." you see the true scope of how troubled this person is. Other things that seem to indicate a child being involved is the way he talks about the person. "My sweet lamb and martyr." seems to refer to innocence.
I have never participated in sodomy, but I imagine it's less traumatizing to a full-grown gay male. Even if it's painful the first time, I imagine they wouldn't feel mortally threatened. "I'm breathing so I guess I'm still alive. Even if signs seem to tell me otherwise." sounds like confusion about the whole thing. Like "What just happened?" "That person really hurt me." "Did they love me?" "He had to know that hurt me." The whole feeling of the song seems to imply that the other person didn't feel confident about doing that deed in the first place. It's as if there was manipulation that took place. I think that the adult of this song knows full well of the manipulation that happened to him as a child. As an adult he knows he was being manipulated, and now he continues in the tradition of preying on an unsuspecting person.
To me, this is undoubtedly Tool's darkest and most controversial song. It's about extremely negative cycles perpetuated by insatiable desires. I feel it's about knowing beyond a shadow of any doubt that what you're doing is wrong, but feeling you will not be whole unless you act upon this desire. The answer is not in coming full circle; it's in breaking that cycle. Sadly, in this case, he fails, and we are left to wonder if the cycle will ever be broken. Perhaps in doing this act he's planted a seed both physically and metaphorically in the victim for a host of psychological problems which in turn could lead to it all happening again.
This of course is all just my opinion, but I feel this is what this song is about. I could really go out on a limb and say that furthermore I believe the two characters in this song are related, but that is all for now.
Last edited by Cheesegreater; 06-09-2007 at 10:16 PM..
that was great, you said everything i thought but couldn't put into words.
the rapist definitley wants the victim to feel pain, kinda like a transfer.
the rapist has this pain, longing, and he releases onto some innocent victim. but the pain doesn't transfer, he just has to keep doing again and again.
__________________ If a man says something in a forest and no woman is around to hear it, is it still wrong?
if we strech the semantical horizont of the term sexual abuse than maybe it is about it..
but if we stick to the literal meaning of the term sexual abuse then it is not about it...
for me the clearer is the meaphor that the sociaty creats about the parent child relationship...of course from this direction it still has something to do with sexual abuse but i think it is rather the psichosexual abuse that is close to this...
in reality i think it has nothing to do with sexuality couse in most cases ppl are not having sex with their donors...or at least let us take it as an ethalon...it is about the fake ideas that we got from our parents or the society...
we look up to our elderlyes like abraham did on the hill, we expect them to be omnipotent, we folow their rules like its the law of the universe...and at some point in our lives we got dissapointed...we figure out that they are just humans...and then comes the problem of forgiving...we can get really angry when we figure out that our valhalla is just full of things that is only important to us...and we are back to the good old vulnerability part...which is:noone knows what is happening...and of course it is up to us to figure it out...
so i think as a thinker(whatever it means in this sekt)that this song is more about the abuse of psicho sexuality then about actual sexual horrasment...
ps.: the leather boots metaphor is really clever...whit that thing you can achieve nearly anithing..even in birocracy...and you donteven need to be sexually abused meanwhile...
__________________ life is a random fractal spinned by a free will...guarded by a present angel...patterned with a pure intension...
I was watching a movie the other day that made me understand Prison Sex in an entirely new way. I can't remember the name of it though (forgot my pen, heh).
Does that movie happen to be Harry Potter? Haha, just kidding. -Oh a wise guy eh?!
__________________ 10,000 Ænimatic Lateralosaurs Opiating in the Undertow of a Salivalous swamp.
-I WILL NOT BE ANOTHER SHEEP WAITING TO BE SHEARED-
I actually think it is more than just about sexual abuse. In many ways it is about longing, desire, need... I mean you could use it as a metaphor for any craving, really. That is what I ultimately take out of the song... massive desire for something you know is wrong.
I think its about how a human reacts to being wronged by repeating that same action upon another. "full circle" (Prison Sex).
__________________ 10,000 Ænimatic Lateralosaurs Opiating in the Undertow of a Salivalous swamp.
-I WILL NOT BE ANOTHER SHEEP WAITING TO BE SHEARED-
I never took it for more than a song about....well....prison sex. Interesting ideas you have, but Undertow never seemed to be a spiritual album to me. I think this song was before those days. Cravings? Yes, the cravings of a rapist mayhaps. Seeing the video is creepy as hell, especially in the end where the little doll holds up its hand (only to have it held down).
Wrong, yet a desire that constantly haunts you... Kind of like Pauls "thorn in his side" from the Bible... It's what keeps you seeking for a way to rid it, yet it's there to show you are human...
I can see where a sexual abuse theme would seem like the obvious interpretation. Respectfully, there is one fundamental flaw in that theory. It is a rational conclusion based on rational thinking. There is a reason why we sit dumbfounded in an image such as this song creates. We don't understand how people can do the things they do because our thought patterns, for the most part, are reasonable and rational. People who get off on sexual abuse and child molestation missed the bus somewhere with the rational thought and they are on a different mode of transportation altogether. While those of us on planet earth are thinking there is something inherently wrong with these people, they truly believe that they are justified in their actions. The reasons and routes vary but all roads lead to the same place. Abusers do not see themselves as we see them. Some even believe that their reality is a normal course of life and do not understand why other people view them as such monsters. In the case of victims repeating behaviors acted out upon them, especially by family members or people they have a strong emotional bond to, some even find their actions as a way of showing love to their victims because that is how daddy showed his love for them.
As a projection of my own reality of course, this song feels more metaphorical. It's almost like the worst thing one person could imagine happening to them was picked for a metaphor for the loss of personal control you feel when you are constantly fucked with for a long period of time. It is very human to want to hurt others the way you have been hurt in order to regain a sense of control in your own life. And it does not necessarily have to be the person who hurt you. Sometimes when the anger and frustration has been pent up for so long some people are prone to take out their issues on innocent parties just to get it out of their system. It is easy to get caught up in this type of behavior when the original aggressor is unavailable or is too intimidating to confront. From this perspective the lamb and martyr would be that person or people who is or are less intimidating. These are the ones we view as weaker and less defenseless than ourselves and therefore not a threat to us while we are trying to regain the sense of control we lost through altercation with the original aggressor. I can find no better metaphor to explain this pattern of behavior. It's almost like saying, "I'm tired of taking it up the ass. It's time to give a little bit back.". I'm not saying that this is a wise way to deal with your issues but it is a very common and very human behavioral pattern.
__________________ You're so vain. I'll bet you think this post is about you. Don't You? Don't You?
i feel dumb after your post
that was great!
when i think about it, your right, people that do that stuff most of the time think its justified, but what about they people feel guilt after commiting a crime such as rape?
oh and Aezarien,
did you study up on this or are you just gifted by birth?
__________________ If a man says something in a forest and no woman is around to hear it, is it still wrong?
Ouch! No feeling dumb allowed! Truth be told, I have no formal education in psychology. I just have a weird obsession with human behavior and enjoy discussing my own theories. In essence, I have no clue what I am talking about. I do appreciate the exceptional compliments though.
I considered the guilt element but this is where I think things become a little ambiguous. In order to feel guilt or remorse for your actions toward another person you would have to realize what you have done has unjustifiably injured another person. You would have to see them as a victim rather than, for example, a willing participant or someone who deserved what they got. I have to wonder with chronic offenders if any guilt they feel after an offense is a genuine attempt to sympathize with the victim or rather part of some self-loathing ritual brought on by society's view of their actions.
__________________ You're so vain. I'll bet you think this post is about you. Don't You? Don't You?
haha, i see. well just so you know, you'd be a damn good psychologist in my opinion.
yeah i didn't think about that. if they feel guilt then they can't feel justified.
once someone has learned a certain way, can they ever change how they think? if they feel like their actions are justified, could someone ever show them the way most of us think (that rape is horrible, ect.) ?
also, how can anyone do the right thing if there is a chance that their morals are wrong? like, i have heard people who kill babies so they don't have to live in such a bad neighborhood, they feel like they are doing the right thing, but most people think its wrong. whats right, whats wrong? and how could we ever know?
sorry for asking questions to you like you know all the answers in the world
its just your opinions are making sense to me. sorry
__________________ If a man says something in a forest and no woman is around to hear it, is it still wrong?
Last edited by nabiliofadilio; 07-11-2007 at 03:16 PM..
I apologize for the delay in answering. I just haven't been able to sit still long enough today to respond with any coherence and I am on my way to bed here in a moment. My computer stays on 24/7 so if it says I am online I am usually in and out and checking in periodically.
I am interested to hear what you think on the topic however. It's all subjective so there really are no wrong answers.
__________________ You're so vain. I'll bet you think this post is about you. Don't You? Don't You?
I apologize for the delay in answering. I just haven't been able to sit still long enough today to respond with any coherence and I am on my way to bed here in a moment. My computer stays on 24/7 so if it says I am online I am usually in and out and checking in periodically.
I am interested to hear what you think on the topic however. It's all subjective so there really are no wrong answers.
^^^^^this genius is my big sister :O)
And I think this song is about child abuse, sexual or otherwise.
Ouch! No feeling dumb allowed! Truth be told, I have no formal education in psychology. I just have a weird obsession with human behavior and enjoy discussing my own theories. In essence, I have no clue what I am talking about. I do appreciate the exceptional compliments though.
I considered the guilt element but this is where I think things become a little ambiguous. In order to feel guilt or remorse for your actions toward another person you would have to realize what you have done has unjustifiably injured another person. You would have to see them as a victim rather than, for example, a willing participant or someone who deserved what they got. I have to wonder with chronic offenders if any guilt they feel after an offense is a genuine attempt to sympathize with the victim or rather part of some self-loathing ritual brought on by society's view of their actions.
You do have a knack for studying human behavior. I've got to hand it to you. I was especially interested in the last thing you said. I too wonder if they feel guilt or not. This self-loathing you speak of though, I must say, sounds a lot like guilt, whether brought on by society or some other way. I would classify self-loathing as a form of guilt. Self-loathing tends to be brought on by actions you feel are unjustifiable. If one feels they've done an unjustifiable wrong action, they'll certainly feel guilty. Also, when someone engages in something terrible that they cannot justify, there is little left to do but hate the self. Am I right?
Chronic offenders live a tortured life, or at least they should. A lot of them have unimaginable psychological problems. The way I feel about it is there are monsters, and people with monsters on their backs. The ones with monsters on their backs, well whatever ounce of good left in them tortures the self as if to try to kill the monster. Think of serial killers killing themselves. Maybe that one ounce of good in them realized, "Hey, I don't think I can stop. Those were good people. I've got to end this the only way I think I can."
Really interesting posts Aezarien. ;) Maybe you'll be a behavioral psychologist yet!
a while back, nabiliofadilio, you asked how can we know when an act is right or wrong.
i think theres no concrete answer, its up to a persons conscience, and his ability to see what they have done. not everyone thinks the same way because not everyone lives the same way, and their point of view is affected by that. we don't really know what the "norm" for human behavior is, execpt by popular consensus. we have to go by what the goverment tells is "right" or "wrong", at least until we delve deeper into the human psyche, and i doubt we'll ever get to that point.
cheesegreater, i think when someone enegages in an act to terrible to justify, they have to be psychotic, at least on some level, because if they dont feel the need to justify it, they dont feel guilt or self loathing. if you find some way, no matter how irrational,to justify the act then i would say you most certainly do feel guilt or some self loathing.
going back to right and wrong, a person may not see something as needing to be justified because, in their mind, thier action was right, there is nothing to be justified. if you feel the need to justify, somewhere, deep down, you know the act you commited was wrong
god its nice to have a talk that doesnt reach into the metaphysical every once i a while
just to clarify, i to am not a behavioral pyschologist either, i just think to much
This song seems to me like many of Tools earliest songs... and I could be totally wrong on this one but... it always appreared to me that he's saying "I'm not keeping this fucking secret any more, I'm not going to be the only one suffering anymore, I'm going to tell the entire world what you've done and rob you of the power that YOU and WHAT YOU DID holds over me."
The first half of the song appears to be written from the child's perspective. It appears to me that the child was abused and manipulated into thinking that their abuser couldn't help doing what they were doing. There is always an implicit agreement that the secret between the abuser and the abused will always remain intact.
------------------
The second half is the same person now an adult, who is exposing the abuser for what they really are.
*Do unto you now what has been done to me. (MY turn to fuck YOU in the ass. I'm going to tell everyone what you did.)
*I need you to feel this. I need this to make me whole. (I can't get over what happened until I get you back for what you did to me. I need you to HURT too or this will eat me alive.)
*For I am your witness that blood and flesh can be trusted. (I trusted you with the innocence of a child... and you transgressed that trust. *Sarcasm* You can trust me not to tell the world what you've done... like I trusted you.)
*And only this one holy medium brings me piece of mind. (Only writing and singing about this gets it out of my fucking head and makes me feel better. My sweet revenge.)
*Got YOUR hands bound, YOUR head down, YOUR eyes closed. YOU look so precious now. (How does it feel? I'm in control now. You are powerless as I expose the world to what kind of monster you really are. I am fucking YOU in the ass now buddy)
*I have found some kind of temporary sanity in this shit blood and cum on my hands. (By acknowledging what happened, facing it, nasty and horriffic as it was - I'm slowly facing this for what is really is. The GRAPHIC nature of this line is pure honesty, and it's ownership. Ownership takes the power away. You know how a girl can refer to herself as a bitch. Nasty powerful words are only powerful when used against you. When you take ownership of something that is potentially painful to you, you can strip it of its power over you.)
*I've come round full circle* (You used this to hurt me when I was defenseless and now I'm strong and I'm going to destroy you with it.)
*My lamb and martyr, this will be over soon. You look so precious. (*sarcasm* How do you like being in my position buddy? You thought I'd take this secret to the grave. You're a frail old man now, defenseless as I was as a child in your old age. You thought you'd die with this secret and no one would know what you really are. Poor thing, boo fucking hoo)
...Yeah, I have a degree in psychology :O) Not that it really helped in my interpretation though.
Last edited by gabe_angelfire; 07-12-2007 at 12:08 PM..
Great discussion on these lyrics so far.
However, I think there is too much emphasis on the Sex and not enough on the "Prison". I find this song very touching - It seems to be not intentionally about child abuse, but rather a very successful attempt by Maynard to sympathize with perhaps the most loathed individual in society - the prison inmate raping another inmate.
Existence in prison is one of continual rape. Everything in your environment, from the pacing guards overhead to the cold cement underneath - bleeds its power over you, shits on you, tells you every morning that you are nothing but an animal.
This brutal reality, imposed on the prisoner every day, contradicts everything his body and mind tell him - that he is an individual, complete with memories of his mother and his favorite music, etc. The prisoner thus carries around this endless conflict. When your environment tells you reality is the opposite of what you perceive to be reality, that's when you start feeling insane, that's when you start going insane.
Eventually, there is nothing to do but seek release from this torment, however you can. To do this, you do unto others what has been done to you, in a desperate attempt to transfer this disease to someone else. The prisoner, raped every minute of his life, starts looking for a victim. This is the psychological motivation.
The dark truth, of course, is that this horrible act is the same kind that got you into prison in the first place, and that you have in this way been in prison your whole life, doomed to reflect pain back at the world. Because of this truth, there is only a temporary release from the pain, a temporary sanity, and that is in the physical loss of memory, the physical release of power within the orgasm.
And therein you come full circle - your life as a prisoner is one in which you constantly reaffirm through your brutality the accusations of society, the very ones that brought you here, the very ones that leave you here, alone with nothing but your endless conflict and your demons, staring at the newcomers.
I want to agree with you ^^^ but this song seems intensly personal to me. Yes the title is Prison Sex... but if I were sodomized (or actually I don't think it has to be sodomy... my stepmom beat the shit out of me and I CAN FEEL THIS SONG as a victim of child abuse) If I were the one who wrote this song... as a child I would feel like nothing but a gaping hole... and my transgressor would be nothing but a criminal fucking me in the ass. A criminal that deserves to be in jail having HIS ass fucked!
*I'm treading water, I need to sleep a while.* That's how you would feel if you decided to repress a memory of something horriffic. Let me just close my eyes and not be here!
*It took so long to remember just what happened. I was so young and vestal then, you know it hurt me, but I'm breathing so I guess I'm still alive even if signs seem to tell me otherwise. (I'm just now coming to terms what happened to me and GOD I might be breathing inside but I feel dead. The reality of this suffocates me.)
Thought I could make it end, Thought I could wash the stains away, Thought I could break the circle if I Slipped right into your skin (I thought that facing this and doing the unthinkable *telling the whole fucking world that you did this to me* would make me feel better. I thought that lowering myself to your level and trashing you for the world to see/hear would make me feel better.)
So sweet was your surrender (I got no reaction from you, not the reaction I expected)
We have become one, I have become my terror (I lowered myself to your level by striking out with viciousness, and for some reason I hate myself for it... *because that's how the cycle goes unfortunately.... you don't get repreive as an abuse victim, no matter what you do, you are always a victim.*)
And you my precious lamb and martyr (*sarcasm* I came out and told the world and now you are playing the victim, how fucking nice.)
i see a lot of sense in ahhnevermind's interpretation, the song is called prison sex after all.
but i also see gabe_angelfire's reasoning too. this is a really personal song, and some of the lyrics bring to mind how i think a kid would feel in the situation.
i think maynard used this song (as usual) to give just a genral idea and what we are doing is finding all the things that the song does mean. songs don't always have one meaning
oh, and uummm..nocoolnames, more like your 25cents! (haha yes, 'm fucking hilarious, i know) do you think there is like a universal right and wrong?
i guess its like religion, we will never know who's right until we die.
__________________ If a man says something in a forest and no woman is around to hear it, is it still wrong?
^^^ But what about the main focus of the song - do unto others what has been done to me. The desire to be the sadist/rapist? If this were personal (which I dont doubt) then it is a very dark personal recognition not just of the abuse but the corruptive effect that abuse has had. If we agree on this point, we agree - it doesn't have to be a stranger nor a physical prison, those are metaphors for emotional states and power relations.
EDIT: Re-reading your post, I don't think we disagree at all. The cycle of corruption inherent to violence is the topic. It most certainly IS personal, he clearly is able to sympathize, actually empathize, with this prisoner because he has experienced this metaphor - the only real difference in our wording is whether maynard set out in a literary mode (i.e. "I will try to get inside the head of a prisoner", only to discover a connection) or a poetic mode (i.e. "I will try to express this emotion through metaphor").
And with all due respect to MJK, that's completely irrelevant.
Last edited by ahhnevermind; 07-12-2007 at 11:03 AM..
The way I interpreted the *do unto others* line was that so many abusers use the fact that they were abused to justify what they are doing. Was this adult justifying their actions in this manner?
I don't get a vibe from this song that the recprocation on behalf of the child is literally sexual. "Do unto others"- oh that was your excuse for hurting me as a child? Let me show you what I think about that *sarcasm* do unto others... I'll show you do unto others, you ruined my life and now it's my turn to ruin yours.
HOWEVER, I do agree with Nabiliofadilio that there are layers... which in that case we may ALL be right. I do believe that one of the purposes of the song is to get us thinking about and talking about a topic that we would rather ignore. It is SO easy to pretend that shit like sexual abuse doesn't happen.
HOWEVER, I do agree with Nabiliofadilio that there are layers... which in that case we may ALL be right. I do believe that one of the purposes of the song is to get us thinking about and talking about a topic that we would rather ignore. It is SO easy to pretend that shit like sexual abuse doesn't happen.
Agreed. and sadly, what makes this song repulsive to most people isn't the idea of child abuse - as they would not even get that far in analysis - but rather the idea of gay sex.
This is encouraging, you guys are so awesome for having an intelligent discussion, for agreeing, and agreeing to disagree without starting a flame war! I'm new here but so many rooms I've gone into have been mean and ugly!
oh, and uummm..nocoolnames, more like your 25cents! (haha yes, 'm fucking hilarious, i know) do you think there is like a universal right and wrong?
i guess its like religion, we will never know who's right until we die.
yeah, i did kinda ramble on, i get talkitive at 6:00 in the morning apparently
anyway, about universal right and wrong, well personally i don't think there is a standard, but if you believe in god or a higher power, i guess there is the standard of whatever your god or religion says is right or wrong. as for me, jury's still out on god or true religion, but i think if there is a higher power, it would let us make or own decisions on right and wrong, but thats just my personal view
you know, when i first heard this song, i thought it was maynard mocking people in prison, but know i see that the song has deeper, darker meanings
There is a lot to contend with here! I'm slightly if not completely ADHD so please excuse me while I shamelessly quote the points. It's purely organizational. I promise.
nabiliofadilio - I apologize for last night. I seriously wasn't trying to put you off. I thought I had a moment earlier but you know how it is when life calls. Anyway...
"how can anyone do the right thing if there is a chance that their morals are wrong? like, i have heard people who kill babies so they don't have to live in such a bad neighborhood, they feel like they are doing the right thing, but most people think its wrong. whats right, whats wrong? and how could we ever know?"
This is purely my subjective uneducated opinion on the subject matter and it concurs with what nocoolnames said here:
"i think theres no concrete answer..... not everyone thinks the same way because not everyone lives the same way, and their point of view is affected by that."
and here:
"...personally i don't think there is a standard..."
Right and wrong are merely subjective opinions based on the psychosocial environments we have been exposed to. We can't even count on those little feelings we have inside that determine individual right and wrong because these feelings are guided by our perceptions. If how we perceive something that gives us the little moral tingle changes then the physical part of our emotional response could change as well. Our system of morals, as it were, is constantly changing. Whether or not that is a good thing I hesitate to say.
In some cultures, much like in ours, to hurt a child is thought of as lowly and despicable. You even think about spanking your kid and you are a basket case that should be put in prison. Compared to the Spartan children however, our kids seem to have it made. In that time and culture babies that were thought to be unhealthy or weak were set upon a mountain side to starve to death or succumb to the elements. The healthy ones were reared and sent to camps at seven years old to go through rigorous training in preparation for life which was, until the age of 60, the military. During this training and as children they participated in brutal exercises in which loss of life was not only possible but occurred frequently. Nonetheless this militant way of life was what they found to be honorable, right, and just. Their culture also had some elements that would put our bible thumping society into a coma. The naked dancing in the street and wives taking on lovers not only for personal pleasure but to bear children with would be enough I am sure.
The aforementioned are all things that our moral majority not only frowns upon but they throw up pickets, riot, and have sit-downs over less. I don't care to have that type of society myself but I can't say the Spartans were wrong because maybe that is what the circumstances required of the people at that time.
I kind of went off into story-telling mode there for a minute so to ground myself and actually answer the question; We go with what we know and how that makes us feel. Change is possible but it takes knowledge, acceptance, and the right recipe of environmental variables for true change to occur. It takes the same for us to realize what things call for change and what things we need to leave to individual choice. In an ideal world every individual should choose for themselves. Some things however, especially those things that limit another individual's right to choose including taking advantage of those incapable of making rational decisions, should obviously be beyond an individual's scope of practice.
Did I ramble a little? lol
__________________ You're so vain. I'll bet you think this post is about you. Don't You? Don't You?
This is encouraging, you guys are so awesome for having an intelligent discussion, for agreeing, and agreeing to disagree without starting a flame war! I'm new here but so many rooms I've gone into have been mean and ugly!
ironic considering this is one of tools most violent and ugly songs
yeah, i did kinda ramble on, i get talkitive at 6:00 in the morning apparently
anyway, about universal right and wrong, well personally i don't think there is a standard, but if you believe in god or a higher power, i guess there is the standard of whatever your god or religion says is right or wrong. as for me, jury's still out on god or true religion, but i think if there is a higher power, it would let us make or own decisions on right and wrong, but thats just my personal view
you know, when i first heard this song, i thought it was maynard mocking people in prison, but know i see that the song has deeper, darker meanings
hahah no man, i don't mean you rambled! (i encourage rambling actually)
i said 25cents because your opinon was really good and 2cents usaully means a unimportant opinion and yours was a good opinion......
anyway. i don't have a religion so i don't have those rules to follow, and personally i think some religions "right and wrong" are comeplete bullshit.
hahah yeah, this song has some of darkest and deepest meaning of any song i know!
__________________ If a man says something in a forest and no woman is around to hear it, is it still wrong?
This is encouraging, you guys are so awesome for having an intelligent discussion, for agreeing, and agreeing to disagree without starting a flame war! I'm new here but so many rooms I've gone into have been mean and ugly!
yeah! this is a good discussion, you guys are great to talk to
__________________ If a man says something in a forest and no woman is around to hear it, is it still wrong?
There is a lot to contend with here! I'm slightly if not completely ADHD so please excuse me while I shamelessly quote the points. It's purely organizational. I promise.
nabiliofadilio - I apologize for last night. I seriously wasn't trying to put you off. I thought I had a moment earlier but you know how it is when life calls. Anyway...
"how can anyone do the right thing if there is a chance that their morals are wrong? like, i have heard people who kill babies so they don't have to live in such a bad neighborhood, they feel like they are doing the right thing, but most people think its wrong. whats right, whats wrong? and how could we ever know?"
This is purely my subjective uneducated opinion on the subject matter and it concurs with what nocoolnames said here:
"i think theres no concrete answer..... not everyone thinks the same way because not everyone lives the same way, and their point of view is affected by that."
and here:
"...personally i don't think there is a standard..."
Right and wrong are merely subjective opinions based on the psychosocial environments we have been exposed to. We can't even count on those little feelings we have inside that determine individual right and wrong because these feelings are guided by our perceptions. If how we perceive something that gives us the little moral tingle changes then the physical part of our emotional response could change as well. Our system of morals, as it were, is constantly changing. Whether or not that is a good thing I hesitate to say.
In some cultures, much like in ours, to hurt a child is thought of as lowly and despicable. You even think about spanking your kid and you are a basket case that should be put in prison. Compared to the Spartan children however, our kids seem to have it made. In that time and culture babies that were thought to be unhealthy or weak were set upon a mountain side to starve to death or succumb to the elements. The healthy ones were reared and sent to camps at seven years old to go through rigorous training in preparation for life which was, until the age of 60, the military. During this training and as children they participated in brutal exercises in which loss of life was not only possible but occurred frequently. Nonetheless this militant way of life was what they found to be honorable, right, and just. Their culture also had some elements that would put our bible thumping society into a coma. The naked dancing in the street and wives taking on lovers not only for personal pleasure but to bear children with would be enough I am sure.
The aforementioned are all things that our moral majority not only frowns upon but they throw up pickets, riot, and have sit-downs over less. I don't care to have that type of society myself but I can't say the Spartans were wrong because maybe that is what the circumstances required of the people at that time.
I kind of went off into story-telling mode there for a minute so to ground myself and actually answer the question; We go with what we know and how that makes us feel. Change is possible but it takes knowledge, acceptance, and the right recipe of environmental variables for true change to occur. It takes the same for us to realize what things call for change and what things we need to leave to individual choice. In an ideal world every individual should choose for themselves. Some things however, especially those things that limit another individual's right to choose including taking advantage of those incapable of making rational decisions, should obviously be beyond an individual's scope of practice.
Did I ramble a little? lol
no need to apologize! i understand comepletely. no worries!
hahaha there was some rambling in there but when people ramble they usually say something brilliant in the process!
morals do vary and change, i still can't help but wonder is there is a universal right and wrong. wouldn't that be crazy? if really the right thing to do was kill and survive and by joinging together people have sinned to some unknown god? hahaha wouldn't that screw with everybodies heads.
ok back to serious mode.
i believe that some people aren't capable of making moral decisions, but who am i to say? who is anyone to say? which gets me on the subject of some people thinking there morals are better than other people. THAT pisses me off.how do they know? hmm? arggg
do you know how many people have been killed because someone thought their morals were detter than the other's? lots. and it all was totally unnecassary. the sooner people realize that morals are personal, and they vary, the sooner we can get along with each other!
__________________ If a man says something in a forest and no woman is around to hear it, is it still wrong?
The way I interpreted the *do unto others* line was that so many abusers use the fact that they were abused to justify what they are doing. Was this adult justifying their actions in this manner?
I don't get a vibe from this song that the recprocation on behalf of the child is literally sexual. "Do unto others"- oh that was your excuse for hurting me as a child? Let me show you what I think about that *sarcasm* do unto others... I'll show you do unto others, you ruined my life and now it's my turn to ruin yours.
HOWEVER, I do agree with Nabiliofadilio that there are layers... which in that case we may ALL be right. I do believe that one of the purposes of the song is to get us thinking about and talking about a topic that we would rather ignore. It is SO easy to pretend that shit like sexual abuse doesn't happen.
well than tool has done their job, this is one hell of a discussion
__________________ If a man says something in a forest and no woman is around to hear it, is it still wrong?
Cheesegreater - Just now sitting down again with this topic lol. I swear I am way to busy to talk as much as I do!
"This self-loathing you speak of though, I must say, sounds a lot like guilt, whether brought on by society or some other way. I would classify self-loathing as a form of guilt. Self-loathing tends to be brought on by actions you feel are unjustifiable. If one feels they've done an unjustifiable wrong action, they'll certainly feel guilty. Also, when someone engages in something terrible that they cannot justify, there is little left to do but hate the self. Am I right?"
Self-loathing can most definitely be brought on by feelings of guilt and that is where my main curiosity is focused. I wonder if those that do hate themselves sympathize with the pain they have caused others or because they can not fit in with society's perception of who they should be. In any case I think torturing oneself through guilt and self-loathing is a popular way to go as is rationalization and self-justification. Then there is self perpetuated amnesia but all any of it amounts to is avoidance.
"Chronic offenders live a tortured life, or at least they should. A lot of them have unimaginable psychological problems."
I agree with you in spirit. It is hard to believe that the majority of them are tortured when groups like NAMBLA (North American Man/Boy Love Association) exist. I agree with you and please excuse my frankness but grown men who get off on fucking little boys should live a tortured life in my less than humble opinion. I have a 13 year old son and the images it conjures makes me more than unqualified to give an unbiased opinion. That probably has a lot to do with why I choose to interpret the song metaphorically. Interpreting it any other way makes me think of removing someone's eyes with dental tools.
"The way I feel about it is there are monsters, and people with monsters on their backs."
Excellent metaphor and I agree 100%. What do you believe separates the monsters from the one's merely afflicted by the same?
"The ones with monsters on their backs, well whatever ounce of good left in them tortures the self as if to try to kill the monster. Think of serial killers killing themselves. Maybe that one ounce of good in them realized, "Hey, I don't think I can stop. Those were good people. I've got to end this the only way I think I can."
That makes complete sense. I question the motives for suicide but I don't doubt that profound realization has been a motive. I would see this being the case where someone had just "snapped" and when brought back to equilibrium couldn't live with what they did.
__________________ You're so vain. I'll bet you think this post is about you. Don't You? Don't You?
This song seems to me like many of Tools earliest songs... and I could be totally wrong on this one but... it always appreared to me that he's saying "I'm not keeping this fucking secret any more, I'm not going to be the only one suffering anymore, I'm going to tell the entire world what you've done and rob you of the power that YOU and WHAT YOU DID holds over me."
I can totally see this point of view as well.
__________________ You're so vain. I'll bet you think this post is about you. Don't You? Don't You?
Great discussion on these lyrics so far.
However, I think there is too much emphasis on the Sex and not enough on the "Prison". I find this song very touching - It seems to be not intentionally about child abuse, but rather a very successful attempt by Maynard to sympathize with perhaps the most loathed individual in society - the prison inmate raping another inmate.
In my interpretation I took the "Prison" part and incorporate it into the trapped feeling you have when you are enduring any type of abuse, neglect, or harassment.
I have enjoyed hearing everyone's point of view and have things I particularly like about each one. What I like about yours in particular is that it presents an unbiased interpretation that gives the writer credit for being a writer and not merely a vessel of spewing emotions.
__________________ You're so vain. I'll bet you think this post is about you. Don't You? Don't You?
morals do vary and change, i still can't help but wonder is there is a universal right and wrong. wouldn't that be crazy? if really the right thing to do was kill and survive and by joinging together people have sinned to some unknown god? hahaha wouldn't that screw with everybodies heads.
I think years of bred in deity worshiping and subsequent bible thumping creates that feeling in the "moral" majority. It is the true voice that speaks and tells us to pray when we think we are going to suffer badly or die. For some people believing in a higher power gives them comfort and security. The concept for me only serves to make me feel like I am being fucked with. I can make more of my life believing that this is the last stop and I only have one chance to get it right. I admit I hear that voice occasionally but would give anything to make it go away.
Quote:
Originally Posted by nabiliofadilio
i believe that some people aren't capable of making moral decisions, but who am i to say? who is anyone to say? which gets me on the subject of some people thinking there morals are better than other people. THAT pisses me off.how do they know? hmm? arggg
do you know how many people have been killed because someone thought their morals were detter than the other's? lots. and it all was totally unnecassary. the sooner people realize that morals are personal, and they vary, the sooner we can get along with each other!
Some people are incapable of making moral decisions. In the end however, morals are only defined by what it takes to compromise them and to loosely quote from a conversation Gabe and I recently had, Everything has a price. We may not be able to fathom that price in our current state of perception but it is there. The hope is that we never have to cross that bridge. As far as people defining morals for you, they just need a hobby, or therapy, or a wake up call, or to get over themselves, or a Twizzler (I'll just die if they quit making these things). Either way, if they are focused on you then that is a fine indication that they are avoiding issues of their own and picking on you takes the focus off their own shit. They don't deserve to own you in anger for even a moment.
__________________ You're so vain. I'll bet you think this post is about you. Don't You? Don't You?
In my interpretation I took the "Prison" part and incorporate it into the trapped feeling you have when you are enduring any type of abuse, neglect, or harassment.
I never thought about it like that but you are so right!!!
Man/Boy Love Association *ROTFLMFAO* :'D
That's not right!
