For one thing he didn't say anything dishonouring about God but clearly explained that she lead her life in a way that gave her a right to speak to her maker and tell him/her that she has saved a life, I presume that would be Maynard's but can't be sure and deserves all the grace that she gets

I agree with most of what you say but the idea that he didn't respect her until she died frankly sounds like bullshit. I feel that a lot of people think of TOOL being against relegion but they're really against hypocrits going to mass and praying... and then in life, leading it in complete contradiction. The fact remains that he has always praised people who stood up for what they believed in and I feel this where he rejoices he's mother as an Angel

In his music he never tells anyone what they should believe in, you should know better that just because someone doesn't believe in something that doesn't mean they can't understand where they are coming from. He just doesn't agree with organised religion and in my knowledge I don't believe he ever said he didn't believe in something like that unless someone can prove me wrong!

brilliantly said

How the **** do you know what he does or doesn't believe in, were you just talking to him last week or something. Do you not know how rude it is to speak for other people at least without backing it up!!!!

And here we have the clearest indicator yet that you have no interest in an actual discussion, just in digging for ways to attack this song, or MJK for whatever reason it is you have.

This thread is titled "Hypocritcal?", with your initial argument being the somewhat flimsy assertation that because your shallow interpretation of the lyrics of the song run contrary to your assumptions about Maynard's personal beliefs, Maynard is a hypocrite. Now, having had several people attempt to explain to you how misguided this viewpoint is, you quietly shift the argument to whether or not the song is "touching". I'm aware that a lot of people have droned on endlessly about how this song or that song made them cry or moved them, but that is a wholy subjective assertation. The fact that you now attempt to quietly reframe this debate suggests to me that you're simply trolling for a fight.

I'll endulge you this far: Regardless of whether a peice of art is created as a reflection of the literal beliefs and opinions of the artist is, to most I believe, utterly irrelevant in it's emotional impact. If you have a personal grudge against an artist then sure, that's going to colour your interpretation of the art. But that's to do with you bringing you baggage into your experience of the work at hand. How touching something is is all about how the audience recieves it.

Submachine, listen to Parabola.

It's pretty clear Maynard is not a stone-cold atheist.
He also has said that his anger is directed more towards the 'middle-men' of religion, that use it to forward their own ego-driven ends.

Perhaps Maynard believes that when we die our being/soul/callitwhatyouwill transcends this 5-sense existence and can experience what it thought it would experience.

As a result he doesn't 'not believe' that his mother is going to heaven, leaving you without an argument.

That's pretty much what I was trying to say. Go watch What Dreams May Come. It is about just that.

well stated.

See what I'm talking about?

See how misleading this song is?

You're in the group that thinks Maynard has found the lord and written a deeply touching song about what he feels and believes with all his heart for a departed loved one.

Others think the complete opposite, MJK has written an emotionless cynical song about something he not only doesn't believe but has actively spoken against.

And still a third group thinks MJK sadly wishes it were all true, but despite the conviction of the lyrics, believes none of it.

Shit dude, Lateralus must have been a fucking nightmare for you. All those different interpretations... why are you here again?

Maybe that's the beauty of it. Allowing everyone their own interpretation. Giving everyone a chance to hear it their own way.

I don't call it misleading, I call it a gift to the listeners. If you want music with more up front messages, maybe you should listen to gangsta rap.

I know the pussy's mines, I'ma fuck a couple more times
And then I'm through with it, there's nothing else to do with it
Pass it to the homie, now you hit it
Cause she ain't nuthin but a bitch to me
And y'all know, that bitches ain't shit to me
i gives a fuck, why don't y'all pay attention
Approach it with a different proposition, I'm Kurupt
Hoe you'll never be my only one, trick ass beeeitch!

It ain't no fun, if the homies can't have none

Even if he's come to believe the same thing as his mother, does that make him hypocritical?? People change... things in life make you see things differently. It's called growing up.... it's not like Maynard's never contradicted himself before:

"I will not tolerate you, I will go down beside you, no one is innocent" - Intolerance

...

"Wear your grudge like a crown of negativity, calculate what you will and will not tolerate, desperate to control all and everything, unable to forgive your scarlet lettermen" - the Grudge


_______________________

Bottom line - Maynard's human, and he's a poet... he writes things as he sees them at the time he sees them. I think it would be more hypocritical of him to act like he doesn't believe something that he now somehow sees a point in. I know a lot of you don't wanna hear it, and I hate to say it but if you listen to this album you'll see a LOT of references... not just in this one song. It's littered all over the record. He's seeing things differently... let him. He's f'n MAYNARD JAMES KEENAN.

Amen.

please direct all hatemail to [email protected] :)

Mericfully, someone said it...!

...and I'll say that beliefs, experiences and reflections don't often, and need not, line up and translate into tidy linear packages for easy public consumption: put your own shit under a really, really bright light after coming at it from different angles or through different mediums, and I'm sure that while some of it will resonate with others, the only person it will make perfect sense to is you...you've got to love anyone's courage to put that into motion to begin with...

No, it makes him religious. And only a third thinks the song means he has found religion.

If he doesn't believe it, and doesn't want to, this is cynical.

If he doesn't believe it, but does want to, this is a pathetic jesus parachute.

Either way, these moments of "wings and gates and makers" turn what could have been a touching song about his mother into a joke about (false) belief.

Judith is about him wishing his mother had lived a fantastic life on Earth, about him wishing she didn't believe in God because she's restricting her experiences on this world to those sanctioned by dogma.

10,000 Days is Maynard expressing how compared to the idiots who surrounded her, the insincere Christians who are only in it because they're afraid they might go to Hell, his mother was a pillar of faith. She truly believed in God and lived her life not in fear, but in Love of this being.

"Set as I am in my ways and my arrogance, burden of proof tossed among the believers, you were my witness, my eyes, my evidence, Judith Marie, unconditional one."

"I don't believe in God, but you still Loved me, tried to show me how I was wrong, opened my mind to the possibility that 'maybe' I was wrong."

I think he's keeping an open mind, but still doesn't like 'false Christians' like those who surrounded his mother because they don't really believe.

No, it is a tribute. You are being cynical.

It is a celebration of the best that Judith Marie provided to the world and to her son. It is not about Maynard, but it inevitably includes him due to its context. He quite clearly tries to keep himself and his opinions out of it as much as he can so that the focus can be on her. Being about her, it talks of her beliefs largely from her perspective.

If Maynard wanted to be cynical he might say things like "Well, you're dead now, did all that stupid praying get you into heaven huh? You only prayed for me so you could get into the good books with 'God'"
But no, that would be rude, hardly a tribute.

cyn·i·cal Audio pronunciation of "cynical" ( P ) Pronunciation Key (sn-kl)
adj.

1. Believing or showing the belief that people are motivated chiefly by base or selfish concerns; skeptical of the motives of others: ex: a cynical dismissal of the politician's promise to reform the campaign finance system.


I think we know who the cynic is...

but wait...there's more

ob·sti·nate Audio pronunciation of "obstinate" ( P ) Pronunciation Key (bst-nt)
adj.

1. Stubbornly adhering to an attitude, opinion, or course of action; obdurate.

Oooo!! the grammer police strikes again!! :-p lol

So, what you are saying is that it is Maynards fault that people are coming to different conclusions about what his lyrics mean?

I will try to simplify things for you. Maynard used imagery from his mothers belief system to to deal with the loss of his Mother. In some ways it is as if he is offering an apology to her for basically ridiculing her faith. He is saying that despite his own disbelief in her religion, he respects her for her steadfastness. Does that clear things up?

Why must cynical equal emotionless?
You're attributing the fact that different people interpret this song in different ways to a weakness of the song.
You even stooped to disregard the one post that made sense to you on the basis that there is "no proof" in the song to support his ideas.
Sometimes people feel things, feel a gut interpretation and don't necessarily own the eloquence to express what it is that they're feeling.
It's no less valid for not having been "accurately" expressed.
And yes, some people fight to apply meaning and fall short...
remember, we're dealing with monkey brains.
If I told you that I found a particular painting sad would you ask for proof?
If someone else found the same painting to be uplifting would you declare the painting to be "misleading", that the the artist had obviously failed in his attempt to portray a particular emotion?
edited to remove useless personal criticism...

The point is he believes exactly that, but he is willing to compromise his beliefs for a tribute song? The song is written from a first person perspective.

oy vey my friend you have a thick skull. im pretty sure maynard doesnt know either way, he may believe one thing but hes saying in honor of his mother, that since she was such a great person and honored the christian values so closely, so much better than others who claim the same thing, that it would be tragic for there not to be a heaven. hes not being hypocritical at all. saying that he doesnt believe in heaven but going to church regularly so that he could get into heaven is being hypocritical. for his mother hes almost hoping hes wrong. "if you should see your makers face tonight tell him..." hes using the qualifier 'if' because hes not saying she will, hes not saying "when you see your makers..." hes leaving it open ended, but if she were to see him, hes saying she better reap the rewards of being a stellar believer.

First: Does he believe that? I don't know. What makes you think you know?

Second: It's his mother for goodness sake! She is dead! If that is what he thinks, he certainly is not going to express it over and above the important, good things she did in life. He has respect for her! You are accusing him of being hypocritical, but if he had sung the song you want now, you would be saying he is a nasty, unworthy son. Well, then again, maybe you would be celebrating it, I don't know, but I don't think he wishes to be seen in that light.

He doesn't say "if you" he says "should you"

And he doesn't qualify "Shake your fist at the gates"

or

"I only pray heaven knows When to lift you out "

Some tribute. Its the Jesus parachute, the time to test ones beliefs ARE at moments of vulnerability and emotional insability.

"The church is full of liars, people who only go in order to buy their way into a Heaven they aren't even sure they believe in. You believed, nothing could sway those beliefs.
But, if you were right and God exists, he was the one who decided you should spend 10,000 days in Hell. Get him to come to you and demand a reward for staying so loyal even though he caused you so much pain.
Tell him that you stuck by your beliefs, even when challenged by me, your son and that despite our differences, you still Loved me and saved me."

agnostic.

Hmm, submachine, I notice you have completely ignored post #104. Could it be that it shatters your absurd conclusions about Maynards supposed Hypocricy?

It was too clear, sensible and to the point.
You have to give him something at least "questionable" to focus on in his retort.

^ this one?

And where in the song does it say, hint, or imply his own disbelief in her religion?

I feel it, personally, and in the context of Maynard's personality it makes sense.

right my mistake, either way the word 'should' shows uncertainty and your other two examples are working under the premise and suggestion that if there is a god and heaven and such then so on and so forth, but it doesnt get revealed to you until the end of the song that how he feel about what he wishes for his mother. "set in my ways and my arrogance" hes basically saying im going to believe what i want but if you are right may you be rewarded because she was true to her beliefs and not just using religion as a safety net.

Not that my opinion means anything, particularly with a strongly personal piece of poetry, but the argument for hypocrisy is moot. There is a thing called "poetic license" and not everything can be explained away by literal interpretation of lyrical content.

For me the song is touching, it won't be to others. The beauty of personal interpretation of art. I find it touching because he can overlook his own beliefs for the eternal happiness of one that he loves. The sound of the flapping wings in the closing of the song hits me more strongly than the singing does, because to me it is the indicator that she has finally earned her peace through her tremendous adversities.

That is what art is about, without doubt.
Trying to apply a set of intellectual guidelines to it in an attempt to break it down is not only completely missing the point but degrading to its form.

I love it so much when people get so wrapped up in the music or the band that they think they KNOW what the lyrics meant to the writer. TOOL/Maynard's lyrics are quite flexible and leave room for interpretations. All of this is pure speculation and each person's own interpretation. So in keeping that in mind here's MY take:
We all know what 10,000 days is. We've heard the song over and over and over again. This song is a tribute to his mother whom he loved dearly, as a good son does his mother. Judith Marie was a Christian woman who lived a Christian lifestyle. Maynard, angered by what had happened to his mother has often expressed his disdain for God.
But as the song says, "Never took a life, but surely saved one"
"Set as I am in my ways..." etc, you know -"you were my witness" That's Maynard telling us that his "mum" (WTF>?) witnessed her values and beliefs to him. And he saw that in spite of her condition she found strength in her faith. Basically, Maynard has witnessed the power of faith and is sharing his take on it all.
For all of you whom are pissed about Maynard's apparent new spirituality phase:
YOU NEED TO LISTEN CLOSER...DEEPER....MAYNARD HAS BEEN SAYING THIS ALL ALONG! FIND OUT WHAT 46&2 REALLY MEANS. Strive to reach that next level and "choose to let this go"---"Spiral out...we may just go where no one's been"
Its alot about the power of the mind and our own control of our feelings and making the most of our time here: "Repugnant is the creature who would squander the ability to lift an eye to heaven conscious of his fleeting time here.
Silly Monkeys....where's there's one they're bound to divide it....Right in Two!!!

"Listen to the tales (bible) and romanticize"
(romanticize = deal with, or describe in an idealized or unrealistic fashion: Oxford Dictionary)
How we follow the path of the Hero (Jesus)

and

"Listen to the tales as we all rationalize"
( Rationalize= attempt to justify with logical reasoning.
Our way inot the arms of the savior

and
"Ignorant fibbers (liars) in the congregation
Gather around spewing Sympathy, spare me
None of them can even hold a candle up to you"

I take this to mean that he feels the people of his Mothers church
only gave lip service to being pious, but He believes that his mother, at least was true to her beliefs.

"But enough enough of the collective judas"

enough about those hypocrites this song isn't about them, or how I feel about about christianity it is about you, mom.


"this little light of mine (his art) it gives your past unto me"
(your past unto me = I am using the images from your religion)
"I'll let shine"
(Ising this song for you)
"to guide you safely on your way"

"Please forgive me for this bold suggestion"

Forgive me for not believing as you did, which leads to this suggestion.

"Should you see your Maker's face tonight"

I don't belive it will happen, but should your faith prove true tell your god this...

There is more, but I just took a few lines to demonstrate that there is no hypocricy here, just respect for his mother.

This of course is only how I inturpret the lyrics, but it makes more sense than thinking they are hypocritical

If you truly need me to, I will go through it line for line, but if you still refuse to see it, then by all means believe what you will, but if you feel so strongly about it, i suggest you refuse to see them live in protest, so that those who like the new album can attend the show.

Amen (I'm agnostic).

For sake of arguement lets say yes he's being a total hypocrite. What has that changed in the message of the songs.....not a damn thing. So does it really matter? No it doesnt.

I concur..... well said. There has been an overwhelming spirituality in the lyrical content and attitude of TOOL's works..... especially so since LATERALUS. Whether or not it is "believed" by the author is a moot point...... IT MAKES YOU THINK. Personally, I think the material has been delivered with such incredible conviction that it is probably personal and believed. But doesn't have to be.... could just be "SOLD" to us............