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tDoXoMl
04-29-2006, 02:05 PM

I find that many people (being the clever listeners they are) can find many similarities between alot of different songs (especially this here new Tool album). And thats not a bad thing, artists do influence eachother alot in the sounds that they choose to use. Maybe this album does sound like dream theatre (but would tool listen to a whiny singer like dream theatres?) You can reach all you want in an attempt to gather comparisons and influences, but at the end of the day, a note is a note and tone/effect is an attempt to differ their sound from that of other bands.

Music is as full a spectrum as colors and to transcend that boundary is the only way to make truly unique music. Fuck ill get flamed cuz i may have just stated a complete pile of bullshit. But this is how i see things.

You know what? Find similarities! if you want other bands to seem greater because Tool copied them, then go ahead ya silly fanboys... lol. I think a lesser experienced/skilled guitar player like adam will eventually HAVE to run into riffs and sounds hes used in the past. But hey, if all he can do is use the same scales and patterns then let him, hes a tonal genius and he'll get killer sounds out of those notes that he knows well. He uses the parts of the guitar that he is familiar with for a reason, SO HE CAN MAKE TOOL SOUND AS GOOD AS POSSIBLE. You cant say hes an un technical guitar player and then shun him for not experimenting.

Maybe im wrong but all the other members are practically virtuoso's so i dont see a need to defend them. Do they rehash old material as well? You know, they might. And while they do probably want to keep a sound that they are more familiar with, i also think that they have alot of room to experiment. I think thats why this album seems so different yet so "re hashed" at the same time. Shit, none of us were expecting this album. Right now my only question is, are you guys still gona hate this album in 2 months? Sorry, i have a way of addressing different issues at once...

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Old 04-29-2006, 02:05 PM   #1
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Why music will never sound different

I find that many people (being the clever listeners they are) can find many similarities between alot of different songs (especially this here new Tool album). And thats not a bad thing, artists do influence eachother alot in the sounds that they choose to use. Maybe this album does sound like dream theatre (but would tool listen to a whiny singer like dream theatres?) You can reach all you want in an attempt to gather comparisons and influences, but at the end of the day, a note is a note and tone/effect is an attempt to differ their sound from that of other bands.

Music is as full a spectrum as colors and to transcend that boundary is the only way to make truly unique music. Fuck ill get flamed cuz i may have just stated a complete pile of bullshit. But this is how i see things.

You know what? Find similarities! if you want other bands to seem greater because Tool copied them, then go ahead ya silly fanboys... lol. I think a lesser experienced/skilled guitar player like adam will eventually HAVE to run into riffs and sounds hes used in the past. But hey, if all he can do is use the same scales and patterns then let him, hes a tonal genius and he'll get killer sounds out of those notes that he knows well. He uses the parts of the guitar that he is familiar with for a reason, SO HE CAN MAKE TOOL SOUND AS GOOD AS POSSIBLE. You cant say hes an un technical guitar player and then shun him for not experimenting.

Maybe im wrong but all the other members are practically virtuoso's so i dont see a need to defend them. Do they rehash old material as well? You know, they might. And while they do probably want to keep a sound that they are more familiar with, i also think that they have alot of room to experiment. I think thats why this album seems so different yet so "re hashed" at the same time. Shit, none of us were expecting this album. Right now my only question is, are you guys still gona hate this album in 2 months? Sorry, i have a way of addressing different issues at once...

Thank You
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Perseensilmä's Avatar Perseensilmä
04-29-2006, 02:10 PM

Simple question, simple answer:

I will hate this forever. There is a certain level where this album actually works (I´ll make another lenghty thread on the subject when I have more time).
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Old 04-29-2006, 02:10 PM   #2
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Re: Why music will never sound different

Simple question, simple answer:

I will hate this forever. There is a certain level where this album actually works (I´ll make another lenghty thread on the subject when I have more time).
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monkeythumbs
04-29-2006, 02:15 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Perseensilmä
Simple question, simple answer:

I will hate this forever. There is a certain level where this album actually works (I´ll make another lenghty thread on the subject when I have more time).

you are an idiot.


oh and FYI, there are 12 notes... finding a similarity in morbid angel and motzart is easy. i could show you hundreds of 4 and 5 note sections that are the same.

finding similarity between 2 albums by the same band... now that takes rocket science.
Old 04-29-2006, 02:15 PM   #3
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Re: Why music will never sound different

Quote:
Originally Posted by Perseensilmä
Simple question, simple answer:

I will hate this forever. There is a certain level where this album actually works (I´ll make another lenghty thread on the subject when I have more time).

you are an idiot.


oh and FYI, there are 12 notes... finding a similarity in morbid angel and motzart is easy. i could show you hundreds of 4 and 5 note sections that are the same.

finding similarity between 2 albums by the same band... now that takes rocket science.
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Oberon's Avatar Oberon
04-29-2006, 02:32 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by monkeythumbs
you are an idiot.


oh and FYI, there are 12 notes... finding a similarity in morbid angel and motzart is easy. i could show you hundreds of 4 and 5 note sections that are the same.

finding similarity between 2 albums by the same band... now that takes rocket science.


there are only 12 notes in our current 12 TET system.


(a pet peeve of mine, when people act like 12 TET is the only thing out there. its not.)
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Old 04-29-2006, 02:32 PM   #4
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Re: Why music will never sound different

Quote:
Originally Posted by monkeythumbs
you are an idiot.


oh and FYI, there are 12 notes... finding a similarity in morbid angel and motzart is easy. i could show you hundreds of 4 and 5 note sections that are the same.

finding similarity between 2 albums by the same band... now that takes rocket science.


there are only 12 notes in our current 12 TET system.


(a pet peeve of mine, when people act like 12 TET is the only thing out there. its not.)
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dracomordag's Avatar dracomordag
04-29-2006, 02:52 PM

lol @ "motzart"
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Old 04-29-2006, 02:52 PM   #5
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Re: Why music will never sound different

lol @ "motzart"
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mike09's Avatar mike09
04-29-2006, 02:56 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by rogerwaters987
Yah listen to Indian music w/ sitars. Or play a fretless bass. There's an infinite number of notes; you can keep cutting them flatter or sharper forever (like you can keep cutting an inch in half forever)
Not really. Most people wouldn't be able to hear the difference an A note and an A note bent up 1/8th.
Old 04-29-2006, 02:56 PM   #6
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Re: Why music will never sound different

Quote:
Originally Posted by rogerwaters987
Yah listen to Indian music w/ sitars. Or play a fretless bass. There's an infinite number of notes; you can keep cutting them flatter or sharper forever (like you can keep cutting an inch in half forever)
Not really. Most people wouldn't be able to hear the difference an A note and an A note bent up 1/8th.
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tDoXoMl
04-29-2006, 03:27 PM

now i look like an idiot but, whats TET? is it like the standard tuning of E A D G B E or something? but umm, doesnt different tuning just change like the order of the notes anyways? Allowing you to play songs that would normally be very hard in the standard E A D G B E tuning? i dont see how you can get more out of a guitar with something other then "TET". Or im missing your point completely... lol
Old 04-29-2006, 03:27 PM   #7
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Re: Why music will never sound different

now i look like an idiot but, whats TET? is it like the standard tuning of E A D G B E or something? but umm, doesnt different tuning just change like the order of the notes anyways? Allowing you to play songs that would normally be very hard in the standard E A D G B E tuning? i dont see how you can get more out of a guitar with something other then "TET". Or im missing your point completely... lol
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paraflux
04-29-2006, 03:28 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by monkeythumbs
you are an idiot.
You are on probation.
Old 04-29-2006, 03:28 PM   #8
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Re: Why music will never sound different

Quote:
Originally Posted by monkeythumbs
you are an idiot.
You are on probation.
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tDoXoMl
04-29-2006, 03:30 PM

Or maybe some of the strings are tuned normally and the others are tuned like a 1/4 step differently, giving you twice the spectrum. lol i should have put this as an edit in my last post but i want the post count.
Old 04-29-2006, 03:30 PM   #9
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Re: Why music will never sound different

Or maybe some of the strings are tuned normally and the others are tuned like a 1/4 step differently, giving you twice the spectrum. lol i should have put this as an edit in my last post but i want the post count.
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04-29-2006, 03:32 PM

MODS R DUM LOLL




am I band now? plz?
Old 04-29-2006, 03:32 PM   #10
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Re: Why music will never sound different

MODS R DUM LOLL




am I band now? plz?
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paraflux
04-29-2006, 03:38 PM

thats too bad, your other posts were ok.
Old 04-29-2006, 03:38 PM   #11
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Re: Why music will never sound different

thats too bad, your other posts were ok.
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Oberon's Avatar Oberon
04-29-2006, 03:53 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by rogerwaters987
Yah listen to Indian music w/ sitars. Or play a fretless bass. There's an infinite number of notes; you can keep cutting them flatter or sharper forever (like you can keep cutting an inch in half forever)

This is an oversimplification of the issue. There are not an infinite amounts of notes. barring any future revelations about the nature of the universe, there are an infinite number of frequencies... but "notes" and "frequencies" are different. a note is something that can be psychoacoustically differentiated from another note (yes yes recursive definition but it workds) -- You can only train the ear to hear so many notes.



Wow i'm all over both sides of this issue.
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Old 04-29-2006, 03:53 PM   #12
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Re: Why music will never sound different

Quote:
Originally Posted by rogerwaters987
Yah listen to Indian music w/ sitars. Or play a fretless bass. There's an infinite number of notes; you can keep cutting them flatter or sharper forever (like you can keep cutting an inch in half forever)

This is an oversimplification of the issue. There are not an infinite amounts of notes. barring any future revelations about the nature of the universe, there are an infinite number of frequencies... but "notes" and "frequencies" are different. a note is something that can be psychoacoustically differentiated from another note (yes yes recursive definition but it workds) -- You can only train the ear to hear so many notes.



Wow i'm all over both sides of this issue.
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Oberon's Avatar Oberon
04-29-2006, 03:55 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by tDoXoMl
Or maybe some of the strings are tuned normally and the others are tuned like a 1/4 step differently, giving you twice the spectrum. lol i should have put this as an edit in my last post but i want the post count.

"TET" stands for "Tone Equal Temperament", as in 12 Tone Equal Temperament.


A guitar is permantly intoned the way it is when it is built. Other instruments can be re-intoned etc.
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Old 04-29-2006, 03:55 PM   #13
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Re: Why music will never sound different

Quote:
Originally Posted by tDoXoMl
Or maybe some of the strings are tuned normally and the others are tuned like a 1/4 step differently, giving you twice the spectrum. lol i should have put this as an edit in my last post but i want the post count.

"TET" stands for "Tone Equal Temperament", as in 12 Tone Equal Temperament.


A guitar is permantly intoned the way it is when it is built. Other instruments can be re-intoned etc.
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Perseensilmä's Avatar Perseensilmä
04-29-2006, 04:17 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Oberon
A guitar is permantly intoned the way it is when it is built.
Not quite true. Or yeah, it´s meant to be that way, but still it´s possible to re-intone guitars.
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Old 04-29-2006, 04:17 PM   #14
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Re: Why music will never sound different

Quote:
Originally Posted by Oberon
A guitar is permantly intoned the way it is when it is built.
Not quite true. Or yeah, it´s meant to be that way, but still it´s possible to re-intone guitars.
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Oberon's Avatar Oberon
04-29-2006, 04:20 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Perseensilmä
Not quite true. Or yeah, it´s meant to be that way, but still it´s possible to re-intone guitars.

well, yeah, but then you've just got a poorly intoned 12 TET instrument. I was saying you can't really change tuning systems on a guitar once its been made. you can't adjust the intonation on a guitar and come up with just temperament, or well temperament, or anything
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Old 04-29-2006, 04:20 PM   #15
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Re: Why music will never sound different

Quote:
Originally Posted by Perseensilmä
Not quite true. Or yeah, it´s meant to be that way, but still it´s possible to re-intone guitars.

well, yeah, but then you've just got a poorly intoned 12 TET instrument. I was saying you can't really change tuning systems on a guitar once its been made. you can't adjust the intonation on a guitar and come up with just temperament, or well temperament, or anything
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Perseensilmä's Avatar Perseensilmä
04-29-2006, 04:22 PM

How about bending the neck on purpose?
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Old 04-29-2006, 04:22 PM   #16
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Re: Why music will never sound different

How about bending the neck on purpose?
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Oberon's Avatar Oberon
04-29-2006, 04:32 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Perseensilmä
How about bending the neck on purpose?
no, you'd have to move the frets and then play in a completely different tuning, or use some weird fanned fret system that i don't even know how it'd work at all. Or move the frets, retune it strangely... never use open strings... I dunno. I'm just gonna go ahead and write it off as "impossible"
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Old 04-29-2006, 04:32 PM   #17
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Re: Why music will never sound different

Quote:
Originally Posted by Perseensilmä
How about bending the neck on purpose?
no, you'd have to move the frets and then play in a completely different tuning, or use some weird fanned fret system that i don't even know how it'd work at all. Or move the frets, retune it strangely... never use open strings... I dunno. I'm just gonna go ahead and write it off as "impossible"
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Perseensilmä's Avatar Perseensilmä
04-29-2006, 04:37 PM

Bending the neck and fucking with tuning would do it, without the need to move the frets.
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Old 04-29-2006, 04:37 PM   #18
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Re: Why music will never sound different

Bending the neck and fucking with tuning would do it, without the need to move the frets.
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black_rose's Avatar black_rose
04-29-2006, 05:23 PM

Theres only 12 notes, if you use different tunings youre just using the same twelve notes at a higher or lower octave, all instuments use the same 12 notes because no other notes exist.

What are you people taking?
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Old 04-29-2006, 05:23 PM   #19
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Re: Why music will never sound different

Theres only 12 notes, if you use different tunings youre just using the same twelve notes at a higher or lower octave, all instuments use the same 12 notes because no other notes exist.

What are you people taking?
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paraflux
04-29-2006, 05:25 PM

You cant change the tuning system on a guitar, (without adjusting the frets as someone else said) but adjusting the truss rod intonates the guitar to however you tune it. For instance, I play my 5-string bass tuned ADADG instead of the "normal" BEADG, and had to have the rod adjusted so that the notes would sound right the higher up the neck I play. The neck is meant to have a certain tension to keep the intonation, and once you mess with that you have to adjust it.
Old 04-29-2006, 05:25 PM   #20
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Re: Why music will never sound different

You cant change the tuning system on a guitar, (without adjusting the frets as someone else said) but adjusting the truss rod intonates the guitar to however you tune it. For instance, I play my 5-string bass tuned ADADG instead of the "normal" BEADG, and had to have the rod adjusted so that the notes would sound right the higher up the neck I play. The neck is meant to have a certain tension to keep the intonation, and once you mess with that you have to adjust it.
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black_rose's Avatar black_rose
04-29-2006, 05:31 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by paraflux
You cant change the tuning system on a guitar, (without adjusting the frets as someone else said) but adjusting the truss rod intonates the guitar to however you tune it. For instance, I play my 5-string bass tuned ADADG instead of the "normal" BEADG, and had to have the rod adjusted so that the notes would sound right the higher up the neck I play. The neck is meant to have a certain tension to keep the intonation, and once you mess with that you have to adjust it.
Yeah you tune a step down mess around with the intonation but youre still using 12 notes. No matter what tuning or instrument or anything, the notes go E, F, F#, G, G#, A, A#, B, C, C#, D, D# and then back to E thats chromatically, in standard tuning on a guitar that would be open on your lowest string and then every fret up to 12. 12 is E again so after 12 you would be playing the same notes but an octave higher.

Now you can call these other names like for instance if you call them flats instead of sharps it instead of F sharp you would call it G flat, G sharp would be A flat etc.

Last edited by black_rose; 04-29-2006 at 05:35 PM..
Old 04-29-2006, 05:31 PM   #21
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Re: Why music will never sound different

Quote:
Originally Posted by paraflux
You cant change the tuning system on a guitar, (without adjusting the frets as someone else said) but adjusting the truss rod intonates the guitar to however you tune it. For instance, I play my 5-string bass tuned ADADG instead of the "normal" BEADG, and had to have the rod adjusted so that the notes would sound right the higher up the neck I play. The neck is meant to have a certain tension to keep the intonation, and once you mess with that you have to adjust it.
Yeah you tune a step down mess around with the intonation but youre still using 12 notes. No matter what tuning or instrument or anything, the notes go E, F, F#, G, G#, A, A#, B, C, C#, D, D# and then back to E thats chromatically, in standard tuning on a guitar that would be open on your lowest string and then every fret up to 12. 12 is E again so after 12 you would be playing the same notes but an octave higher.

Now you can call these other names like for instance if you call them flats instead of sharps it instead of F sharp you would call it G flat, G sharp would be A flat etc.

Last edited by black_rose; 04-29-2006 at 05:35 PM..
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schmeng's Avatar schmeng
04-29-2006, 05:47 PM

the TET system is used for all modern pop music becuase the average western person wouldn't think that anything else sounds good. our ears have been conditioned to listen to this sort of music because, mathematically, it makes sense
Old 04-29-2006, 05:47 PM   #22
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Re: Why music will never sound different

the TET system is used for all modern pop music becuase the average western person wouldn't think that anything else sounds good. our ears have been conditioned to listen to this sort of music because, mathematically, it makes sense
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tDoXoMl
04-29-2006, 06:32 PM

Yea, i heard the standard tuning is the way it is because it makes all the "good" notes accesible with eachother. It is i guess what we were trained to like. where can i find good alternate tunings?
Old 04-29-2006, 06:32 PM   #23
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Re: Why music will never sound different

Yea, i heard the standard tuning is the way it is because it makes all the "good" notes accesible with eachother. It is i guess what we were trained to like. where can i find good alternate tunings?
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paraflux
04-29-2006, 06:35 PM

Where can you find them?
Old 04-29-2006, 06:35 PM   #24
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Re: Why music will never sound different

Where can you find them?
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Oberon's Avatar Oberon
04-29-2006, 06:54 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by black_rose_immortal
Theres only 12 notes, if you use different tunings youre just using the same twelve notes at a higher or lower octave, all instuments use the same 12 notes because no other notes exist.

What are you people taking?

there are 12 notes in our current musical system. there are other systems that have more notes, or 12 notes that are tuned differently.



Our ears hear the relationships between different frequencies in ratios.


If you have a note, then play that same note up an octave, the ratio between the frequencies of these two notes is 2:1. Double the frequency, jump an octave.



To go up a justly intonated "perfect fifth", you triple the frequency, then half it, so fifths are in a ratio of 3:2.


one of the earliest tuning systems that was around was the pythagorean system, and its from that that we get the standard of "12 notes".

to get notes in a pythagorean system, start with a base note (a = 440 is a convenient one, but back then it was most likely something totally different).

Go up a perfect fifth, 3:2, exactly. That's the second note. Go up another perfect fifth. thats the third note. Etc etc etc, until you get back to the note you started at. then get those notes and put them all in the same octave. You've got a normal 12 tone system.


But, there's a problem. 12 perfect fifths in a ratio of 3:2 does not get you back to where you started exactly. There's a slight difference in the pitch you end up at (adjusted for octave of course) and the pitch you started at. This is called a pythagorean comma.

One of the ways to fix the issue of the pythagorean comma is to flat all the notes in the scale by one twelfth of the comma. But then you've made all your notes out of tune slightly.



There's another issue. when you're under the pythagorean system, most Major and minor thirds sound dissonant. So... what do you do?


A solution for this was Just intonation. You take your instrument, most likely a piano or other clavier, and you figure out what key you're gonna be playing in, like, lets say.... A = 440! (once again, a wasn't 440 in this time period)


You start with A, then you know all the ratios of the notes above it.
You tune "E" to be a ratio of 3:2 with your original A. "D" is 4:3. AND SO FORTH until you have all 12 notes tuned.


This works pretty well, but it has two disadvantages. 1, you have to retune the instrument every time you change keys. 2, you have whats called the "wolf fifth" -- the 5th between some of the notes sounds out of tune.


So, there are some FURTHER compromise systems. The more you compromise, the less sonorous and in tune it all sounds, but the more versitle the tuning system is for playing in different key centers and tonalities.


The ultimate compromise system is 12 Tone Equal Temperance, or 12 TET.


Start with A = 440 again, then double it to get the Octave. Then, you split the octave in to 12 notes evenly. your 12 notes are then split as "12th roots"...

1:1
1:2^1/12
1:2^2/12


etc etc, until you get to the octave,

1:2^12/12, or 1:2.



THIS is the system we're familiar with. 12 notes, evenly spaced.
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Old 04-29-2006, 06:54 PM   #25
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Re: Why music will never sound different

Quote:
Originally Posted by black_rose_immortal
Theres only 12 notes, if you use different tunings youre just using the same twelve notes at a higher or lower octave, all instuments use the same 12 notes because no other notes exist.

What are you people taking?

there are 12 notes in our current musical system. there are other systems that have more notes, or 12 notes that are tuned differently.



Our ears hear the relationships between different frequencies in ratios.


If you have a note, then play that same note up an octave, the ratio between the frequencies of these two notes is 2:1. Double the frequency, jump an octave.



To go up a justly intonated "perfect fifth", you triple the frequency, then half it, so fifths are in a ratio of 3:2.


one of the earliest tuning systems that was around was the pythagorean system, and its from that that we get the standard of "12 notes".

to get notes in a pythagorean system, start with a base note (a = 440 is a convenient one, but back then it was most likely something totally different).

Go up a perfect fifth, 3:2, exactly. That's the second note. Go up another perfect fifth. thats the third note. Etc etc etc, until you get back to the note you started at. then get those notes and put them all in the same octave. You've got a normal 12 tone system.


But, there's a problem. 12 perfect fifths in a ratio of 3:2 does not get you back to where you started exactly. There's a slight difference in the pitch you end up at (adjusted for octave of course) and the pitch you started at. This is called a pythagorean comma.

One of the ways to fix the issue of the pythagorean comma is to flat all the notes in the scale by one twelfth of the comma. But then you've made all your notes out of tune slightly.



There's another issue. when you're under the pythagorean system, most Major and minor thirds sound dissonant. So... what do you do?


A solution for this was Just intonation. You take your instrument, most likely a piano or other clavier, and you figure out what key you're gonna be playing in, like, lets say.... A = 440! (once again, a wasn't 440 in this time period)


You start with A, then you know all the ratios of the notes above it.
You tune "E" to be a ratio of 3:2 with your original A. "D" is 4:3. AND SO FORTH until you have all 12 notes tuned.


This works pretty well, but it has two disadvantages. 1, you have to retune the instrument every time you change keys. 2, you have whats called the "wolf fifth" -- the 5th between some of the notes sounds out of tune.


So, there are some FURTHER compromise systems. The more you compromise, the less sonorous and in tune it all sounds, but the more versitle the tuning system is for playing in different key centers and tonalities.


The ultimate compromise system is 12 Tone Equal Temperance, or 12 TET.


Start with A = 440 again, then double it to get the Octave. Then, you split the octave in to 12 notes evenly. your 12 notes are then split as "12th roots"...

1:1
1:2^1/12
1:2^2/12


etc etc, until you get to the octave,

1:2^12/12, or 1:2.



THIS is the system we're familiar with. 12 notes, evenly spaced.
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Wretched's Avatar Wretched
04-29-2006, 06:55 PM

Anyone know where I can learn more about these different things that have been discussed in this thread. The stuff like different notes intrigues me, somewhat. I've never known of this 12 TET thing.
Old 04-29-2006, 06:55 PM   #26
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Re: Why music will never sound different

Anyone know where I can learn more about these different things that have been discussed in this thread. The stuff like different notes intrigues me, somewhat. I've never known of this 12 TET thing.
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04-29-2006, 06:57 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wretched
Anyone know where I can learn more about these different things that have been discussed in this thread. The stuff like different notes intrigues me, somewhat. I've never known of this 12 TET thing.

Wi

Ki


Pe


Di


A
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Old 04-29-2006, 06:57 PM   #27
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Re: Why music will never sound different

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wretched
Anyone know where I can learn more about these different things that have been discussed in this thread. The stuff like different notes intrigues me, somewhat. I've never known of this 12 TET thing.

Wi

Ki


Pe


Di


A
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Colonel Pants
04-29-2006, 09:49 PM

I think some people are getting 'Tuning' and 'TET' mixed up. TET refers to the division of an octave. Another common system is 19 TET (not very common, but still) It divides the octave into 19 notes rather than 12.
Tuning is just what note you tune your strings to.
Here's a page about 19 TET. By the way, he mentions in passing that you CAN refret your normal guitar to get it. http://eceserv0.ece.wisc.edu/~sethar...rchords19.html

That was all very poorly explained, and I look like an idiot, but oh well.

Oberon know's what's up, listen to him.
Old 04-29-2006, 09:49 PM   #28
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Re: Why music will never sound different

I think some people are getting 'Tuning' and 'TET' mixed up. TET refers to the division of an octave. Another common system is 19 TET (not very common, but still) It divides the octave into 19 notes rather than 12.
Tuning is just what note you tune your strings to.
Here's a page about 19 TET. By the way, he mentions in passing that you CAN refret your normal guitar to get it. http://eceserv0.ece.wisc.edu/~sethar...rchords19.html

That was all very poorly explained, and I look like an idiot, but oh well.

Oberon know's what's up, listen to him.
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04-29-2006, 10:08 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Colonel Pants
I think some people are getting 'Tuning' and 'TET' mixed up. TET refers to the division of an octave. Another common system is 19 TET (not very common, but still) It divides the octave into 19 notes rather than 12.
Tuning is just what note you tune your strings to.
Here's a page about 19 TET. By the way, he mentions in passing that you CAN refret your normal guitar to get it. http://eceserv0.ece.wisc.edu/~sethar...rchords19.html

That was all very poorly explained, and I look like an idiot, but oh well.

Oberon know's what's up, listen to him.

Yeah, refretting to ANY Equal temperment would be possible. refretting to anything not equal temperament would be difficult.
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Old 04-29-2006, 10:08 PM   #29
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Re: Why music will never sound different

Quote:
Originally Posted by Colonel Pants
I think some people are getting 'Tuning' and 'TET' mixed up. TET refers to the division of an octave. Another common system is 19 TET (not very common, but still) It divides the octave into 19 notes rather than 12.
Tuning is just what note you tune your strings to.
Here's a page about 19 TET. By the way, he mentions in passing that you CAN refret your normal guitar to get it. http://eceserv0.ece.wisc.edu/~sethar...rchords19.html

That was all very poorly explained, and I look like an idiot, but oh well.

Oberon know's what's up, listen to him.

Yeah, refretting to ANY Equal temperment would be possible. refretting to anything not equal temperament would be difficult.
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tDoXoMl
04-29-2006, 10:17 PM

So temperament means anything thats precisely in tune like "a 440"?
Old 04-29-2006, 10:17 PM   #30
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Re: Why music will never sound different

So temperament means anything thats precisely in tune like "a 440"?
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04-29-2006, 10:35 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by tDoXoMl
So temperament means anything thats precisely in tune like "a 440"?
no. The temperament of the sound is the tuning system you're using. Equal Temperament is when you have each of the tones the same musical distance apart. Just and Well temperament are different intonation systems, where the notes are not all the same distance apart.


For Example.

In the system we're used to, A major scale is "whole whole half whole whole whole half"


In Well temperament, the Whole steps are not well defined, and the scale actually goes

Major Tone Minor Tone Half, Major Tone Minor Tone Major Tone Half.


Etc.
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Old 04-29-2006, 10:35 PM   #31
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Re: Why music will never sound different

Quote:
Originally Posted by tDoXoMl
So temperament means anything thats precisely in tune like "a 440"?
no. The temperament of the sound is the tuning system you're using. Equal Temperament is when you have each of the tones the same musical distance apart. Just and Well temperament are different intonation systems, where the notes are not all the same distance apart.


For Example.

In the system we're used to, A major scale is "whole whole half whole whole whole half"


In Well temperament, the Whole steps are not well defined, and the scale actually goes

Major Tone Minor Tone Half, Major Tone Minor Tone Major Tone Half.


Etc.
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tDoXoMl
04-30-2006, 02:26 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by paraflux
Where can you find them?
Aren't I embarassed, Google is my homepage *shrugs* lol

HAHA am I suposed to follow GOOGLE like the bible or something!

HAHA I i didn't call it the HOLY BIBLE, nor did i capitalize it!

HAHA

Am i being too forward?




WHO HERE! Likes the bible?









!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
shaii i prociaim!...!*!
!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


KILL ALL CHRISTIANS.


!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


??????????????????????????????????


Shall we kill the Holy Christians now?


??????????????????????????????????

HAHA





I didn't say it, Paraflux did!


Ya see,

Tool's NEW ALBUM kinda taught my friend something...
HE WANTS TO KILL.


Everyone...




So uh, Christians?................... ya better watch out!?



Again, Totally Paraflux's IDEA. Which is uh, something that i cannot stress enough


ive been sitting on this post for some hours now, and while it is pretty uh, bad, im gonna submit it anyways so you guys have some fiction to read. Fact is not stranger then fiction
Old 04-30-2006, 02:26 AM   #32
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Re: Why music will never sound different

Quote:
Originally Posted by paraflux
Where can you find them?
Aren't I embarassed, Google is my homepage *shrugs* lol

HAHA am I suposed to follow GOOGLE like the bible or something!

HAHA I i didn't call it the HOLY BIBLE, nor did i capitalize it!

HAHA

Am i being too forward?




WHO HERE! Likes the bible?









!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
shaii i prociaim!...!*!
!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


KILL ALL CHRISTIANS.


!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


??????????????????????????????????


Shall we kill the Holy Christians now?


??????????????????????????????????

HAHA





I didn't say it, Paraflux did!


Ya see,

Tool's NEW ALBUM kinda taught my friend something...
HE WANTS TO KILL.


Everyone...




So uh, Christians?................... ya better watch out!?



Again, Totally Paraflux's IDEA. Which is uh, something that i cannot stress enough


ive been sitting on this post for some hours now, and while it is pretty uh, bad, im gonna submit it anyways so you guys have some fiction to read. Fact is not stranger then fiction
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04-30-2006, 02:28 AM

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Old 04-30-2006, 02:28 AM   #33
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Re: Why music will never sound different

ARE YOU HIGH?
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Perseensilmä's Avatar Perseensilmä
04-30-2006, 02:35 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by paraflux
You cant change the tuning system on a guitar, (without adjusting the frets as someone else said) but adjusting the truss rod intonates the guitar to however you tune it. For instance, I play my 5-string bass tuned ADADG instead of the "normal" BEADG, and had to have the rod adjusted so that the notes would sound right the higher up the neck I play. The neck is meant to have a certain tension to keep the intonation, and once you mess with that you have to adjust it.
Well, I have an acoustic guitar that has a slightly bent neck (it´s old, beaten and it doesn´t have a truss rod. Anyway, if I play an E from 12th fret on low E string (std. tuning) it´s 1/4 step higher than the E from A string 7th fret. So, I basically have the scale arsenal that is divided to 1/4th steps, not 1/2 steps.

I know what you mean, but bending the neck on purpose leads to greater variety of notes (which can also be pretty fucking annoying if you don´t want it, hehe).
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Old 04-30-2006, 02:35 AM   #34
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Re: Why music will never sound different

Quote:
Originally Posted by paraflux
You cant change the tuning system on a guitar, (without adjusting the frets as someone else said) but adjusting the truss rod intonates the guitar to however you tune it. For instance, I play my 5-string bass tuned ADADG instead of the "normal" BEADG, and had to have the rod adjusted so that the notes would sound right the higher up the neck I play. The neck is meant to have a certain tension to keep the intonation, and once you mess with that you have to adjust it.
Well, I have an acoustic guitar that has a slightly bent neck (it´s old, beaten and it doesn´t have a truss rod. Anyway, if I play an E from 12th fret on low E string (std. tuning) it´s 1/4 step higher than the E from A string 7th fret. So, I basically have the scale arsenal that is divided to 1/4th steps, not 1/2 steps.

I know what you mean, but bending the neck on purpose leads to greater variety of notes (which can also be pretty fucking annoying if you don´t want it, hehe).
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04-30-2006, 02:43 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Perseensilmä
Well, I have an acoustic guitar that has a slightly bent neck (it´s old, beaten and it doesn´t have a truss rod. Anyway, if I play an E from 12th fret on low E string (std. tuning) it´s 1/4 step higher than the E from A string 7th fret. So, I basically have the scale arsenal that is divided to 1/4th steps, not 1/2 steps.

I know what you mean, but bending the neck on purpose leads to greater variety of notes (which can also be pretty fucking annoying if you don´t want it, hehe).

No.



The intonation of your guitar goes more and more off the higher you go out. its a quarterstep at 12, its probably an 8th step at 6 and a semitone at 18 (FOR EXAMPLE).



If you can learn to take that out of tune-ness and play it in a musical, logical manner thats not just avant garde-weirdness, you are a fucking genius.
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Old 04-30-2006, 02:43 AM   #35
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Re: Why music will never sound different

Quote:
Originally Posted by Perseensilmä
Well, I have an acoustic guitar that has a slightly bent neck (it´s old, beaten and it doesn´t have a truss rod. Anyway, if I play an E from 12th fret on low E string (std. tuning) it´s 1/4 step higher than the E from A string 7th fret. So, I basically have the scale arsenal that is divided to 1/4th steps, not 1/2 steps.

I know what you mean, but bending the neck on purpose leads to greater variety of notes (which can also be pretty fucking annoying if you don´t want it, hehe).

No.



The intonation of your guitar goes more and more off the higher you go out. its a quarterstep at 12, its probably an 8th step at 6 and a semitone at 18 (FOR EXAMPLE).



If you can learn to take that out of tune-ness and play it in a musical, logical manner thats not just avant garde-weirdness, you are a fucking genius.
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04-30-2006, 02:43 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Oberon
This is an oversimplification of the issue. There are not an infinite amounts of notes. barring any future revelations about the nature of the universe, there are an infinite number of frequencies... but "notes" and "frequencies" are different. a note is something that can be psychoacoustically differentiated from another note (yes yes recursive definition but it workds) -- You can only train the ear to hear so many notes.



Wow i'm all over both sides of this issue.
I'd just like to point out that I know not one, but two violinists who can actually hear the difference between each Cent in a semitone. That's 1/100th of a semitone, for anybody who doesn't know.
Think about that - they can hear 1200 notes in every octave, and not only that, they can play them.

Unsurprisingly, they're the first and second violinists in the Australian String Quartet (although not for much longer, unfortunately..).
Old 04-30-2006, 02:43 AM   #36
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Re: Why music will never sound different

Quote:
Originally Posted by Oberon
This is an oversimplification of the issue. There are not an infinite amounts of notes. barring any future revelations about the nature of the universe, there are an infinite number of frequencies... but "notes" and "frequencies" are different. a note is something that can be psychoacoustically differentiated from another note (yes yes recursive definition but it workds) -- You can only train the ear to hear so many notes.



Wow i'm all over both sides of this issue.
I'd just like to point out that I know not one, but two violinists who can actually hear the difference between each Cent in a semitone. That's 1/100th of a semitone, for anybody who doesn't know.
Think about that - they can hear 1200 notes in every octave, and not only that, they can play them.

Unsurprisingly, they're the first and second violinists in the Australian String Quartet (although not for much longer, unfortunately..).
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tDoXoMl
04-30-2006, 03:41 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by unfnknblvbl
I'd just like to point out that I know not one, but two violinists who can actually hear the difference between each Cent in a semitone. That's 1/100th of a semitone, for anybody who doesn't know.
Think about that - they can hear 1200 notes in every octave, and not only that, they can play them.

Unsurprisingly, they're the first and second violinists in the Australian String Quartet (although not for much longer, unfortunately..).
Dude thats fuckin amazing, so all we need is for everyone to become a violin virtuoso and then ill be proven wrong. Ok i can live with that. But dam i envy that kind of talent. there must be patterns to grasp onto, where like, if you can recognize anything within 300 cents, its easy to find out all 1200 from there. what are these peoples names? they got a website? i need to hear this music, and find out just how little i know about music.
Old 04-30-2006, 03:41 AM   #37
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Re: Why music will never sound different

Quote:
Originally Posted by unfnknblvbl
I'd just like to point out that I know not one, but two violinists who can actually hear the difference between each Cent in a semitone. That's 1/100th of a semitone, for anybody who doesn't know.
Think about that - they can hear 1200 notes in every octave, and not only that, they can play them.

Unsurprisingly, they're the first and second violinists in the Australian String Quartet (although not for much longer, unfortunately..).
Dude thats fuckin amazing, so all we need is for everyone to become a violin virtuoso and then ill be proven wrong. Ok i can live with that. But dam i envy that kind of talent. there must be patterns to grasp onto, where like, if you can recognize anything within 300 cents, its easy to find out all 1200 from there. what are these peoples names? they got a website? i need to hear this music, and find out just how little i know about music.
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04-30-2006, 03:46 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by tDoXoMl
Dude thats fuckin amazing, so all we need is for everyone to become a violin virtuoso and then ill be proven wrong. Ok i can live with that. But dam i envy that kind of talent. there must be patterns to grasp onto, where like, if you can recognize anything within 300 cents, its easy to find out all 1200 from there. what are these peoples names? they got a website? i need to hear this music, and find out just how little i know about music.

Saying that they can hear 12000 notes in an octave because they can differentiate between the cents in a semitone is misleading. don't get TOO excited =)
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Old 04-30-2006, 03:46 AM   #38
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Re: Why music will never sound different

Quote:
Originally Posted by tDoXoMl
Dude thats fuckin amazing, so all we need is for everyone to become a violin virtuoso and then ill be proven wrong. Ok i can live with that. But dam i envy that kind of talent. there must be patterns to grasp onto, where like, if you can recognize anything within 300 cents, its easy to find out all 1200 from there. what are these peoples names? they got a website? i need to hear this music, and find out just how little i know about music.

Saying that they can hear 12000 notes in an octave because they can differentiate between the cents in a semitone is misleading. don't get TOO excited =)
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04-30-2006, 03:51 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by tDoXoMl
I find that many people (being the clever listeners they are) can find many similarities between alot of different songs (especially this here new Tool album). And thats not a bad thing, artists do influence eachother alot in the sounds that they choose to use. Maybe this album does sound like dream theatre (but would tool listen to a whiny singer like dream theatres?) You can reach all you want in an attempt to gather comparisons and influences, but at the end of the day, a note is a note and tone/effect is an attempt to differ their sound from that of other bands.

Music is as full a spectrum as colors and to transcend that boundary is the only way to make truly unique music. Fuck ill get flamed cuz i may have just stated a complete pile of bullshit. But this is how i see things.

You know what? Find similarities! if you want other bands to seem greater because Tool copied them, then go ahead ya silly fanboys... lol. I think a lesser experienced/skilled guitar player like adam will eventually HAVE to run into riffs and sounds hes used in the past. But hey, if all he can do is use the same scales and patterns then let him, hes a tonal genius and he'll get killer sounds out of those notes that he knows well. He uses the parts of the guitar that he is familiar with for a reason, SO HE CAN MAKE TOOL SOUND AS GOOD AS POSSIBLE. You cant say hes an un technical guitar player and then shun him for not experimenting.

Maybe im wrong but all the other members are practically virtuoso's so i dont see a need to defend them. Do they rehash old material as well? You know, they might. And while they do probably want to keep a sound that they are more familiar with, i also think that they have alot of room to experiment. I think thats why this album seems so different yet so "re hashed" at the same time. Shit, none of us were expecting this album. Right now my only question is, are you guys still gona hate this album in 2 months? Sorry, i have a way of addressing different issues at once...

Thank You
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Old 04-30-2006, 03:51 AM   #39
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Re: Why music will never sound different

Quote:
Originally Posted by tDoXoMl
I find that many people (being the clever listeners they are) can find many similarities between alot of different songs (especially this here new Tool album). And thats not a bad thing, artists do influence eachother alot in the sounds that they choose to use. Maybe this album does sound like dream theatre (but would tool listen to a whiny singer like dream theatres?) You can reach all you want in an attempt to gather comparisons and influences, but at the end of the day, a note is a note and tone/effect is an attempt to differ their sound from that of other bands.

Music is as full a spectrum as colors and to transcend that boundary is the only way to make truly unique music. Fuck ill get flamed cuz i may have just stated a complete pile of bullshit. But this is how i see things.

You know what? Find similarities! if you want other bands to seem greater because Tool copied them, then go ahead ya silly fanboys... lol. I think a lesser experienced/skilled guitar player like adam will eventually HAVE to run into riffs and sounds hes used in the past. But hey, if all he can do is use the same scales and patterns then let him, hes a tonal genius and he'll get killer sounds out of those notes that he knows well. He uses the parts of the guitar that he is familiar with for a reason, SO HE CAN MAKE TOOL SOUND AS GOOD AS POSSIBLE. You cant say hes an un technical guitar player and then shun him for not experimenting.

Maybe im wrong but all the other members are practically virtuoso's so i dont see a need to defend them. Do they rehash old material as well? You know, they might. And while they do probably want to keep a sound that they are more familiar with, i also think that they have alot of room to experiment. I think thats why this album seems so different yet so "re hashed" at the same time. Shit, none of us were expecting this album. Right now my only question is, are you guys still gona hate this album in 2 months? Sorry, i have a way of addressing different issues at once...

Thank You
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04-30-2006, 03:59 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by tDoXoMl
what are these peoples names? they got a website? i need to hear this music, and find out just how little i know about music.
Their names are Natsuko Yoshimoto and James Cuddeford. They don't have a website of their own, but they are part of the Australian String Quartet, which I presume is at www.asq.com.au

There's only one piece I know of that's written for them and their unique talents, I'll see if I can clear up enough space on my server to upload it (it's 20MB!)
Old 04-30-2006, 03:59 AM   #40
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Re: Why music will never sound different

Quote:
Originally Posted by tDoXoMl
what are these peoples names? they got a website? i need to hear this music, and find out just how little i know about music.
Their names are Natsuko Yoshimoto and James Cuddeford. They don't have a website of their own, but they are part of the Australian String Quartet, which I presume is at www.asq.com.au

There's only one piece I know of that's written for them and their unique talents, I'll see if I can clear up enough space on my server to upload it (it's 20MB!)
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