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01-07-2007, 02:12 AM
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LIPAN CONJURING ON DISCUSSION FORUMS

I was recently checking out some past discussion forums in which several Tool enthusiasts were attempting to unravel the mysteries of "Lipan Conjuring", the first segue on "10,000 Days." Although many found the song "spiritually uplifting" and were willing to leave it at that, some felt compelled to understand the significance of the piece in relation to the rest of the album (those who didn't just think that it was Danny and a buddy of his tripping out in the desert), with others hoping to have Bill McConnell's vocalizations translated in order to better understand the subject matter that the chant addresses. Predictably (remember these are hard-core Tool fans), at least one person went the pedagogical route, sending "Lipan" to an anthropologist who specializes in Apache cultures.

After analyzing the song, the anonymous professor said that she was "suspicious" (as to it being a true example of Apachean music, I assume), stating that "there are fewer than two dozen Lipan speakers left, [and] they do not record, or allow to have recorded, their speech, let alone [a] song that is considered to be more sacred than speech..." She also had a problem with the title itself, claiming that "as far as [she] knew, only witches conjure, and it is always an evil thing to do" and therefore no Lipans would ever use a word like "conjure." To this I would just like to say that, when it comes to things of an esoteric nature, although I know anthropologists like to think that they have penetrated the inner circle of their particular 'group', even native American shamans and tribal elders can be, at times. grudging 'alchemists.' As for the word "conjure", I could mention the confusing and seemingly contradictory differences between invoking and evoking a particular trans-mundane intelligence, but perhaps it's best to keep in mind the Hermetic/Magickal axiom "As Above, So Below", meaning, as occultist E.E. Rehmus states, that "self and other are one and to draw from the Self is ultimately to draw from the All." Compare this to what Joel Prepejchal (who recorded "Lipan Conjuring" at Rock Bottom Studios in Makanda, Illinois) had to say about the song in a recent e-mail to me: "There is no denomination or specific entities that are described, this was a prayer meant to invoke the All, transcending religion or individual belief."

Another anthropologist referred to by the professor said that the "excerpt was beautiful and very evocative (an interesting choice of words in light of what her colleague had to say about the word "conjure"), but was not what [she] would expect from Apachean music." Besides problems with the musical intervals (repetition of the same phrases and syllables/vocables), according to the anthropologist there is "No harmony in Apachean music or songs." Also, there was the rhythmic sound of the rattle that, to her, seemed to be produced by something with bells attached (like a tambourine) instead of "the deer hoof rattles that should be heard." As for this latter inconsistency, Danny told me that he used a "native death rattle" for the song. (Hell, I could have let him use a sample of a deer hoof from my Kurzweil library had I known it was going to be such a major issue.)

With regards to the harmony, it would be my guess that Bill, Joel and Danny were just being innovative, with some of the harmonics or, at least, the sub-harmonics being an artifact of the other instruments and/or studio processing effects involved in the recording. Again, here's what Joel had to say about "Lipan Conjuring" in an e-mail to me: "The rendition of Calling of the Sprits that you received for the album was only a small portion of a very sacred song that Grandfather* taught to Tom. The piece was used in pipe ceremonies and lodges to call upon the spirits/energies of creation, healing, enlightenment, insight, or whatever the focus might be." Notice that Joel uses the word "rendition." In this particular rendition of the song, I honestly don't know what the focus of the "prayer" might have been, but in reading a bit about Grandfather and Tom (Brown Jr.), perhaps it is to help stave off "The Night of the Red Sky Prophecy" (i.e. ecological meltdown), which might explain the "death rattle" as well as the use of harmony.

* Grandfather refers to "Stalking Wolf", a Lipan Apache Shaman/elder who taught certain philosophical beliefs and wilderness living skills of his people to Tom Brown Jr. (now, a well-known outdoorsman and wilderness guide).

Bill McConnell is the founder of Past Skills Wilderness School.

Joel Prepejchal can be contacted at www.rockbottomstudios.com

The Lipan Apache were a semi-nomadic tribe that inhabited Northwest and South Texas (Houston and Galveston) in the 18th and 19th centuries, with most now living on the Mescalero Apache reservation in south-central New Mexico
Old 01-07-2007, 02:12 AM   #1
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The newsletter about lipan conjuring

LIPAN CONJURING ON DISCUSSION FORUMS

I was recently checking out some past discussion forums in which several Tool enthusiasts were attempting to unravel the mysteries of "Lipan Conjuring", the first segue on "10,000 Days." Although many found the song "spiritually uplifting" and were willing to leave it at that, some felt compelled to understand the significance of the piece in relation to the rest of the album (those who didn't just think that it was Danny and a buddy of his tripping out in the desert), with others hoping to have Bill McConnell's vocalizations translated in order to better understand the subject matter that the chant addresses. Predictably (remember these are hard-core Tool fans), at least one person went the pedagogical route, sending "Lipan" to an anthropologist who specializes in Apache cultures.

After analyzing the song, the anonymous professor said that she was "suspicious" (as to it being a true example of Apachean music, I assume), stating that "there are fewer than two dozen Lipan speakers left, [and] they do not record, or allow to have recorded, their speech, let alone [a] song that is considered to be more sacred than speech..." She also had a problem with the title itself, claiming that "as far as [she] knew, only witches conjure, and it is always an evil thing to do" and therefore no Lipans would ever use a word like "conjure." To this I would just like to say that, when it comes to things of an esoteric nature, although I know anthropologists like to think that they have penetrated the inner circle of their particular 'group', even native American shamans and tribal elders can be, at times. grudging 'alchemists.' As for the word "conjure", I could mention the confusing and seemingly contradictory differences between invoking and evoking a particular trans-mundane intelligence, but perhaps it's best to keep in mind the Hermetic/Magickal axiom "As Above, So Below", meaning, as occultist E.E. Rehmus states, that "self and other are one and to draw from the Self is ultimately to draw from the All." Compare this to what Joel Prepejchal (who recorded "Lipan Conjuring" at Rock Bottom Studios in Makanda, Illinois) had to say about the song in a recent e-mail to me: "There is no denomination or specific entities that are described, this was a prayer meant to invoke the All, transcending religion or individual belief."

Another anthropologist referred to by the professor said that the "excerpt was beautiful and very evocative (an interesting choice of words in light of what her colleague had to say about the word "conjure"), but was not what [she] would expect from Apachean music." Besides problems with the musical intervals (repetition of the same phrases and syllables/vocables), according to the anthropologist there is "No harmony in Apachean music or songs." Also, there was the rhythmic sound of the rattle that, to her, seemed to be produced by something with bells attached (like a tambourine) instead of "the deer hoof rattles that should be heard." As for this latter inconsistency, Danny told me that he used a "native death rattle" for the song. (Hell, I could have let him use a sample of a deer hoof from my Kurzweil library had I known it was going to be such a major issue.)

With regards to the harmony, it would be my guess that Bill, Joel and Danny were just being innovative, with some of the harmonics or, at least, the sub-harmonics being an artifact of the other instruments and/or studio processing effects involved in the recording. Again, here's what Joel had to say about "Lipan Conjuring" in an e-mail to me: "The rendition of Calling of the Sprits that you received for the album was only a small portion of a very sacred song that Grandfather* taught to Tom. The piece was used in pipe ceremonies and lodges to call upon the spirits/energies of creation, healing, enlightenment, insight, or whatever the focus might be." Notice that Joel uses the word "rendition." In this particular rendition of the song, I honestly don't know what the focus of the "prayer" might have been, but in reading a bit about Grandfather and Tom (Brown Jr.), perhaps it is to help stave off "The Night of the Red Sky Prophecy" (i.e. ecological meltdown), which might explain the "death rattle" as well as the use of harmony.

* Grandfather refers to "Stalking Wolf", a Lipan Apache Shaman/elder who taught certain philosophical beliefs and wilderness living skills of his people to Tom Brown Jr. (now, a well-known outdoorsman and wilderness guide).

Bill McConnell is the founder of Past Skills Wilderness School.

Joel Prepejchal can be contacted at www.rockbottomstudios.com

The Lipan Apache were a semi-nomadic tribe that inhabited Northwest and South Texas (Houston and Galveston) in the 18th and 19th centuries, with most now living on the Mescalero Apache reservation in south-central New Mexico
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Twitching Third Eye's Avatar Twitching Third Eye
01-07-2007, 02:51 AM
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Wow, where did you compile all this from? Pretty impressive much of 'facts' regarding Lipan put up there. I really did think they were just messing with the fans. Really couldnt figure out how it really fit into the whole flow of the album in its totality.
Old 01-07-2007, 02:51 AM   #2
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Re: The newsletter about lipan conjuring

Wow, where did you compile all this from? Pretty impressive much of 'facts' regarding Lipan put up there. I really did think they were just messing with the fans. Really couldnt figure out how it really fit into the whole flow of the album in its totality.
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Insanekat's Avatar Insanekat
01-07-2007, 09:01 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Twitching Third Eye View Post
Wow, where did you compile all this from? Pretty impressive much of 'facts' regarding Lipan put up there. I really did think they were just messing with the fans. Really couldnt figure out how it really fit into the whole flow of the album in its totality.
It's the December newsletter on Toolband.
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Old 01-07-2007, 09:01 AM   #3
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Re: The newsletter about lipan conjuring

Quote:
Originally Posted by Twitching Third Eye View Post
Wow, where did you compile all this from? Pretty impressive much of 'facts' regarding Lipan put up there. I really did think they were just messing with the fans. Really couldnt figure out how it really fit into the whole flow of the album in its totality.
It's the December newsletter on Toolband.
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parables in the world's Avatar parables in the world
01-07-2007, 09:33 AM
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you could tell from the feel its a song to help us as a whole.
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Old 01-07-2007, 09:33 AM   #4
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Re: The newsletter about lipan conjuring

you could tell from the feel its a song to help us as a whole.
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Confield's Avatar Confield
01-07-2007, 11:47 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MoreTool View Post
it was Danny and a buddy of his tripping out in the desert
.
Old 01-07-2007, 11:47 AM   #5
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Re: The newsletter about lipan conjuring

Quote:
Originally Posted by MoreTool View Post
it was Danny and a buddy of his tripping out in the desert
.
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eN!gma
01-08-2007, 07:32 AM
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Have a look at
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Articles_for_creation/2006-08-19

Look for "Joel Prepejchal" and you will find the same entry six times. Who the hell wrote this and where did he get that information (on Aug 18!)?
Old 01-08-2007, 07:32 AM   #6
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Re: The newsletter about lipan conjuring

Have a look at
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Articles_for_creation/2006-08-19

Look for "Joel Prepejchal" and you will find the same entry six times. Who the hell wrote this and where did he get that information (on Aug 18!)?
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mike09's Avatar mike09
01-10-2007, 11:27 AM
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That newsletter didn't really end up telling us anything important as to understanding why this song is on this album. What's the relevance of it?
Old 01-10-2007, 11:27 AM   #7
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Re: The newsletter about lipan conjuring

That newsletter didn't really end up telling us anything important as to understanding why this song is on this album. What's the relevance of it?
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hobblegobble's Avatar hobblegobble
01-10-2007, 03:08 PM
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Does it matter
Old 01-10-2007, 03:08 PM   #8
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Re: The newsletter about lipan conjuring

Does it matter
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identity_theory
01-12-2007, 02:31 PM
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hmmm I live 15 minutes from the cited Rock Bottom Studio...weird.

it
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Old 01-12-2007, 02:31 PM   #9
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Re: The newsletter about lipan conjuring

hmmm I live 15 minutes from the cited Rock Bottom Studio...weird.

it
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MORNING_GLORY
01-14-2007, 01:30 PM
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I thought the newsletter made it fairly obvoius...

"There is no denomination or specific entities that are described, this was a prayer meant to invoke the All, transcending religion or individual belief."

That sounds pretty Toolish to me.
Old 01-14-2007, 01:30 PM   #10
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Re: The newsletter about lipan conjuring

I thought the newsletter made it fairly obvoius...

"There is no denomination or specific entities that are described, this was a prayer meant to invoke the All, transcending religion or individual belief."

That sounds pretty Toolish to me.
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B@xter
03-11-2007, 12:26 PM
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They used a "death rattle" in the making of this song?

Any thoughts on the possible connection with Vicarious?

"Part vampire
Part warrior
Carnivore and voyeur
Stare at the
[transmittal / transmitter]
Sing to the death rattle

La, la, la, la, la, la, la-lie (x4)"

Plus, someone in the Vicarious forum noticed that Lipan conjuring, track 6, is exactly one sixth the length of vicarious. There may be nothing to it, but its an interesting coincidence.

I personally think that as this is a prayer to the All for healing, insight, possibly to stave off the Night of the Red Sky Prophecy, etc. and vicarious is about our animalistic nature and the enjoyment we get from seeing pain, suffering, and death, perhaps this is a prayer to heal us (humanity) of that aspect of our nature.

Just a thought, maybe it is just a coincidence. T--l only knows.
Old 03-11-2007, 12:26 PM   #11
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Re: The newsletter about lipan conjuring

They used a "death rattle" in the making of this song?

Any thoughts on the possible connection with Vicarious?

"Part vampire
Part warrior
Carnivore and voyeur
Stare at the
[transmittal / transmitter]
Sing to the death rattle

La, la, la, la, la, la, la-lie (x4)"

Plus, someone in the Vicarious forum noticed that Lipan conjuring, track 6, is exactly one sixth the length of vicarious. There may be nothing to it, but its an interesting coincidence.

I personally think that as this is a prayer to the All for healing, insight, possibly to stave off the Night of the Red Sky Prophecy, etc. and vicarious is about our animalistic nature and the enjoyment we get from seeing pain, suffering, and death, perhaps this is a prayer to heal us (humanity) of that aspect of our nature.

Just a thought, maybe it is just a coincidence. T--l only knows.
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ASnakeForEveryEden
05-09-2007, 07:22 PM
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don't any of u people write in english anymore? i've never seen so much muddling, long-winded language than on a tool site.
Old 05-09-2007, 07:22 PM   #12
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Re: The newsletter about lipan conjuring

don't any of u people write in english anymore? i've never seen so much muddling, long-winded language than on a tool site.
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jevons
05-14-2007, 08:14 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hobblegobble View Post
Does it matter
do you?
Old 05-14-2007, 08:14 AM   #13
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Re: The newsletter about lipan conjuring

Quote:
Originally Posted by hobblegobble View Post
Does it matter
do you?
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Aenima7988's Avatar Aenima7988
09-29-2007, 11:18 PM
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two things- 1 i'm pretty sure tool is screwing around, I doubt they have any actual connection to native american tribes (although if they do that's pretty cool). generally when a member is making a comment on where a song came from, they screw around to see who believes them and who doesn't
2- who called that harmony? there's no harmony in that song. there's a couple voices singing in unison, and for a very short time someone's singing an octave lower than than the rest, but i don't think you can consider it harmony if it's unison/octave
Old 09-29-2007, 11:18 PM   #14
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Re: The newsletter about lipan conjuring

two things- 1 i'm pretty sure tool is screwing around, I doubt they have any actual connection to native american tribes (although if they do that's pretty cool). generally when a member is making a comment on where a song came from, they screw around to see who believes them and who doesn't
2- who called that harmony? there's no harmony in that song. there's a couple voices singing in unison, and for a very short time someone's singing an octave lower than than the rest, but i don't think you can consider it harmony if it's unison/octave
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09-30-2007, 12:45 AM
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Rivek - Could you link to where Maynard said that? I'm guessing it's a newsletter or interview or something.
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Old 09-30-2007, 12:45 AM   #15
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Re: The newsletter about lipan conjuring

Rivek - Could you link to where Maynard said that? I'm guessing it's a newsletter or interview or something.
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Blue10
10-09-2007, 07:09 PM
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if this has been said before, i haven't seen it:

the lipan are credited with introducing the use of peyote to north america. then right after lipan conjuring comes lk/rs.......

and i think the lipan lived closer to the San Antonio area, believe it or not. Of course this CD was made long before any mention of a SA curse. imagine that.

just some thoughts.....
Old 10-09-2007, 07:09 PM   #16
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Re: The newsletter about lipan conjuring

if this has been said before, i haven't seen it:

the lipan are credited with introducing the use of peyote to north america. then right after lipan conjuring comes lk/rs.......

and i think the lipan lived closer to the San Antonio area, believe it or not. Of course this CD was made long before any mention of a SA curse. imagine that.

just some thoughts.....
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Stenrose's Avatar Stenrose
11-26-2007, 01:44 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Blue10 View Post
if this has been said before, i haven't seen it:

the lipan are credited with introducing the use of peyote to north america. then right after lipan conjuring comes lk/rs.......

and i think the lipan lived closer to the San Antonio area, believe it or not. Of course this CD was made long before any mention of a SA curse. imagine that.

just some thoughts.....
You people from the americas are crazy, you all think you live in some kind of freakish nightmare destiny flick about curses and shit.

uhmm. I like it, as a prayer. rosetta stoned is the curse.
Old 11-26-2007, 01:44 PM   #17
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Re: The newsletter about lipan conjuring

Quote:
Originally Posted by Blue10 View Post
if this has been said before, i haven't seen it:

the lipan are credited with introducing the use of peyote to north america. then right after lipan conjuring comes lk/rs.......

and i think the lipan lived closer to the San Antonio area, believe it or not. Of course this CD was made long before any mention of a SA curse. imagine that.

just some thoughts.....
You people from the americas are crazy, you all think you live in some kind of freakish nightmare destiny flick about curses and shit.

uhmm. I like it, as a prayer. rosetta stoned is the curse.
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Yes... Rosetta Stoned is a curse.
That makes massive amounts of fucking sense
Old 12-16-2007, 09:48 PM   #18
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Re: The newsletter about lipan conjuring

Yes... Rosetta Stoned is a curse.
That makes massive amounts of fucking sense
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