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01-07-2007, 02:12 AM
LIPAN CONJURING ON DISCUSSION FORUMS
I was recently checking out some past discussion forums in which several Tool enthusiasts were attempting to unravel the mysteries of "Lipan Conjuring", the first segue on "10,000 Days." Although many found the song "spiritually uplifting" and were willing to leave it at that, some felt compelled to understand the significance of the piece in relation to the rest of the album (those who didn't just think that it was Danny and a buddy of his tripping out in the desert), with others hoping to have Bill McConnell's vocalizations translated in order to better understand the subject matter that the chant addresses. Predictably (remember these are hard-core Tool fans), at least one person went the pedagogical route, sending "Lipan" to an anthropologist who specializes in Apache cultures.
After analyzing the song, the anonymous professor said that she was "suspicious" (as to it being a true example of Apachean music, I assume), stating that "there are fewer than two dozen Lipan speakers left, [and] they do not record, or allow to have recorded, their speech, let alone [a] song that is considered to be more sacred than speech..." She also had a problem with the title itself, claiming that "as far as [she] knew, only witches conjure, and it is always an evil thing to do" and therefore no Lipans would ever use a word like "conjure." To this I would just like to say that, when it comes to things of an esoteric nature, although I know anthropologists like to think that they have penetrated the inner circle of their particular 'group', even native American shamans and tribal elders can be, at times. grudging 'alchemists.' As for the word "conjure", I could mention the confusing and seemingly contradictory differences between invoking and evoking a particular trans-mundane intelligence, but perhaps it's best to keep in mind the Hermetic/Magickal axiom "As Above, So Below", meaning, as occultist E.E. Rehmus states, that "self and other are one and to draw from the Self is ultimately to draw from the All." Compare this to what Joel Prepejchal (who recorded "Lipan Conjuring" at Rock Bottom Studios in Makanda, Illinois) had to say about the song in a recent e-mail to me: "There is no denomination or specific entities that are described, this was a prayer meant to invoke the All, transcending religion or individual belief."
Another anthropologist referred to by the professor said that the "excerpt was beautiful and very evocative (an interesting choice of words in light of what her colleague had to say about the word "conjure"), but was not what [she] would expect from Apachean music." Besides problems with the musical intervals (repetition of the same phrases and syllables/vocables), according to the anthropologist there is "No harmony in Apachean music or songs." Also, there was the rhythmic sound of the rattle that, to her, seemed to be produced by something with bells attached (like a tambourine) instead of "the deer hoof rattles that should be heard." As for this latter inconsistency, Danny told me that he used a "native death rattle" for the song. (Hell, I could have let him use a sample of a deer hoof from my Kurzweil library had I known it was going to be such a major issue.)
With regards to the harmony, it would be my guess that Bill, Joel and Danny were just being innovative, with some of the harmonics or, at least, the sub-harmonics being an artifact of the other instruments and/or studio processing effects involved in the recording. Again, here's what Joel had to say about "Lipan Conjuring" in an e-mail to me: "The rendition of Calling of the Sprits that you received for the album was only a small portion of a very sacred song that Grandfather* taught to Tom. The piece was used in pipe ceremonies and lodges to call upon the spirits/energies of creation, healing, enlightenment, insight, or whatever the focus might be." Notice that Joel uses the word "rendition." In this particular rendition of the song, I honestly don't know what the focus of the "prayer" might have been, but in reading a bit about Grandfather and Tom (Brown Jr.), perhaps it is to help stave off "The Night of the Red Sky Prophecy" (i.e. ecological meltdown), which might explain the "death rattle" as well as the use of harmony.
* Grandfather refers to "Stalking Wolf", a Lipan Apache Shaman/elder who taught certain philosophical beliefs and wilderness living skills of his people to Tom Brown Jr. (now, a well-known outdoorsman and wilderness guide).
Bill McConnell is the founder of Past Skills Wilderness School.
Joel Prepejchal can be contacted at www.rockbottomstudios.com
The Lipan Apache were a semi-nomadic tribe that inhabited Northwest and South Texas (Houston and Galveston) in the 18th and 19th centuries, with most now living on the Mescalero Apache reservation in south-central New Mexico
01-07-2007, 02:12 AM
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#1
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Level 7 - Loquacious
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Quebec
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The newsletter about lipan conjuring
LIPAN CONJURING ON DISCUSSION FORUMS
I was recently checking out some past discussion forums in which several Tool enthusiasts were attempting to unravel the mysteries of "Lipan Conjuring", the first segue on "10,000 Days." Although many found the song "spiritually uplifting" and were willing to leave it at that, some felt compelled to understand the significance of the piece in relation to the rest of the album (those who didn't just think that it was Danny and a buddy of his tripping out in the desert), with others hoping to have Bill McConnell's vocalizations translated in order to better understand the subject matter that the chant addresses. Predictably (remember these are hard-core Tool fans), at least one person went the pedagogical route, sending "Lipan" to an anthropologist who specializes in Apache cultures.
After analyzing the song, the anonymous professor said that she was "suspicious" (as to it being a true example of Apachean music, I assume), stating that "there are fewer than two dozen Lipan speakers left, [and] they do not record, or allow to have recorded, their speech, let alone [a] song that is considered to be more sacred than speech..." She also had a problem with the title itself, claiming that "as far as [she] knew, only witches conjure, and it is always an evil thing to do" and therefore no Lipans would ever use a word like "conjure." To this I would just like to say that, when it comes to things of an esoteric nature, although I know anthropologists like to think that they have penetrated the inner circle of their particular 'group', even native American shamans and tribal elders can be, at times. grudging 'alchemists.' As for the word "conjure", I could mention the confusing and seemingly contradictory differences between invoking and evoking a particular trans-mundane intelligence, but perhaps it's best to keep in mind the Hermetic/Magickal axiom "As Above, So Below", meaning, as occultist E.E. Rehmus states, that "self and other are one and to draw from the Self is ultimately to draw from the All." Compare this to what Joel Prepejchal (who recorded "Lipan Conjuring" at Rock Bottom Studios in Makanda, Illinois) had to say about the song in a recent e-mail to me: "There is no denomination or specific entities that are described, this was a prayer meant to invoke the All, transcending religion or individual belief."
Another anthropologist referred to by the professor said that the "excerpt was beautiful and very evocative (an interesting choice of words in light of what her colleague had to say about the word "conjure"), but was not what [she] would expect from Apachean music." Besides problems with the musical intervals (repetition of the same phrases and syllables/vocables), according to the anthropologist there is "No harmony in Apachean music or songs." Also, there was the rhythmic sound of the rattle that, to her, seemed to be produced by something with bells attached (like a tambourine) instead of "the deer hoof rattles that should be heard." As for this latter inconsistency, Danny told me that he used a "native death rattle" for the song. (Hell, I could have let him use a sample of a deer hoof from my Kurzweil library had I known it was going to be such a major issue.)
With regards to the harmony, it would be my guess that Bill, Joel and Danny were just being innovative, with some of the harmonics or, at least, the sub-harmonics being an artifact of the other instruments and/or studio processing effects involved in the recording. Again, here's what Joel had to say about "Lipan Conjuring" in an e-mail to me: "The rendition of Calling of the Sprits that you received for the album was only a small portion of a very sacred song that Grandfather* taught to Tom. The piece was used in pipe ceremonies and lodges to call upon the spirits/energies of creation, healing, enlightenment, insight, or whatever the focus might be." Notice that Joel uses the word "rendition." In this particular rendition of the song, I honestly don't know what the focus of the "prayer" might have been, but in reading a bit about Grandfather and Tom (Brown Jr.), perhaps it is to help stave off "The Night of the Red Sky Prophecy" (i.e. ecological meltdown), which might explain the "death rattle" as well as the use of harmony.
* Grandfather refers to "Stalking Wolf", a Lipan Apache Shaman/elder who taught certain philosophical beliefs and wilderness living skills of his people to Tom Brown Jr. (now, a well-known outdoorsman and wilderness guide).
Bill McConnell is the founder of Past Skills Wilderness School.
Joel Prepejchal can be contacted at www.rockbottomstudios.com
The Lipan Apache were a semi-nomadic tribe that inhabited Northwest and South Texas (Houston and Galveston) in the 18th and 19th centuries, with most now living on the Mescalero Apache reservation in south-central New Mexico
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01-07-2007, 02:51 AM
Wow, where did you compile all this from? Pretty impressive much of 'facts' regarding Lipan put up there. I really did think they were just messing with the fans. Really couldnt figure out how it really fit into the whole flow of the album in its totality.
01-07-2007, 02:51 AM
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#2
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Level 1 - Lurker
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Among the Masses
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Re: The newsletter about lipan conjuring
Wow, where did you compile all this from? Pretty impressive much of 'facts' regarding Lipan put up there. I really did think they were just messing with the fans. Really couldnt figure out how it really fit into the whole flow of the album in its totality.
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01-07-2007, 09:01 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Twitching Third Eye
Wow, where did you compile all this from? Pretty impressive much of 'facts' regarding Lipan put up there. I really did think they were just messing with the fans. Really couldnt figure out how it really fit into the whole flow of the album in its totality.
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It's the December newsletter on Toolband.
__________________
Push the envelope. Watch it bend.
01-07-2007, 09:01 AM
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#3
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Level 7 - Loquacious
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Finland
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Re: The newsletter about lipan conjuring
Quote:
Originally Posted by Twitching Third Eye
Wow, where did you compile all this from? Pretty impressive much of 'facts' regarding Lipan put up there. I really did think they were just messing with the fans. Really couldnt figure out how it really fit into the whole flow of the album in its totality.
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It's the December newsletter on Toolband.
__________________
Push the envelope. Watch it bend.
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01-07-2007, 09:33 AM
you could tell from the feel its a song to help us as a whole.
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I live to share what i see around this world.
Not believing in things won't make it happen because you don't believe it will.
Peace is a physical and spiritual balance.
01-07-2007, 09:33 AM
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#4
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Level 8 - Vociferous
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: NM...beside turtle mountain
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Re: The newsletter about lipan conjuring
you could tell from the feel its a song to help us as a whole.
__________________
I live to share what i see around this world.
Not believing in things won't make it happen because you don't believe it will.
Peace is a physical and spiritual balance.
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01-07-2007, 11:47 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by MoreTool
it was Danny and a buddy of his tripping out in the desert
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01-07-2007, 11:47 AM
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#5
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On Probation
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: 4
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Re: The newsletter about lipan conjuring
Quote:
Originally Posted by MoreTool
it was Danny and a buddy of his tripping out in the desert
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Have a look at
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Articles_for_creation/2006-08-19
Look for "Joel Prepejchal" and you will find the same entry six times. Who the hell wrote this and where did he get that information (on Aug 18!)?
01-08-2007, 07:32 AM
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#6
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Level 3 - Talker
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Europe
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Re: The newsletter about lipan conjuring
Have a look at
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Articles_for_creation/2006-08-19
Look for "Joel Prepejchal" and you will find the same entry six times. Who the hell wrote this and where did he get that information (on Aug 18!)?
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01-10-2007, 11:27 AM
That newsletter didn't really end up telling us anything important as to understanding why this song is on this album. What's the relevance of it?
01-10-2007, 11:27 AM
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#7
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Banned.
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: NY
Posts: 1,985
Bincount™: 664
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Re: The newsletter about lipan conjuring
That newsletter didn't really end up telling us anything important as to understanding why this song is on this album. What's the relevance of it?
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01-10-2007, 03:08 PM
Does it matter
01-10-2007, 03:08 PM
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#8
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Level 7 - Loquacious
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: California for now
Posts: 443
Bincount™: 906
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Re: The newsletter about lipan conjuring
Does it matter
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hmmm I live 15 minutes from the cited Rock Bottom Studio...weird.
it
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I packaged up dicks and balls to serve at Freddie Mercury's PumpFest '79 just so I could measure the conductivity spectrum of sweaty balls relative to the respective stages of Man Love.
01-12-2007, 02:31 PM
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#9
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Level 6 - Very Deep Thinker
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: Southern Illinois University-Carbondale...USA
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Re: The newsletter about lipan conjuring
hmmm I live 15 minutes from the cited Rock Bottom Studio...weird.
it
__________________
I packaged up dicks and balls to serve at Freddie Mercury's PumpFest '79 just so I could measure the conductivity spectrum of sweaty balls relative to the respective stages of Man Love.
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I thought the newsletter made it fairly obvoius...
"There is no denomination or specific entities that are described, this was a prayer meant to invoke the All, transcending religion or individual belief."
That sounds pretty Toolish to me.
01-14-2007, 01:30 PM
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#10
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Level 7 - Loquacious
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: 4th world
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Re: The newsletter about lipan conjuring
I thought the newsletter made it fairly obvoius...
"There is no denomination or specific entities that are described, this was a prayer meant to invoke the All, transcending religion or individual belief."
That sounds pretty Toolish to me.
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They used a "death rattle" in the making of this song?
Any thoughts on the possible connection with Vicarious?
"Part vampire
Part warrior
Carnivore and voyeur
Stare at the
[transmittal / transmitter]
Sing to the death rattle
La, la, la, la, la, la, la-lie (x4)"
Plus, someone in the Vicarious forum noticed that Lipan conjuring, track 6, is exactly one sixth the length of vicarious. There may be nothing to it, but its an interesting coincidence.
I personally think that as this is a prayer to the All for healing, insight, possibly to stave off the Night of the Red Sky Prophecy, etc. and vicarious is about our animalistic nature and the enjoyment we get from seeing pain, suffering, and death, perhaps this is a prayer to heal us (humanity) of that aspect of our nature.
Just a thought, maybe it is just a coincidence. T--l only knows.
03-11-2007, 12:26 PM
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#11
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Level 1 - Lurker
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: KCMO
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Re: The newsletter about lipan conjuring
They used a "death rattle" in the making of this song?
Any thoughts on the possible connection with Vicarious?
"Part vampire
Part warrior
Carnivore and voyeur
Stare at the
[transmittal / transmitter]
Sing to the death rattle
La, la, la, la, la, la, la-lie (x4)"
Plus, someone in the Vicarious forum noticed that Lipan conjuring, track 6, is exactly one sixth the length of vicarious. There may be nothing to it, but its an interesting coincidence.
I personally think that as this is a prayer to the All for healing, insight, possibly to stave off the Night of the Red Sky Prophecy, etc. and vicarious is about our animalistic nature and the enjoyment we get from seeing pain, suffering, and death, perhaps this is a prayer to heal us (humanity) of that aspect of our nature.
Just a thought, maybe it is just a coincidence. T--l only knows.
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don't any of u people write in english anymore? i've never seen so much muddling, long-winded language than on a tool site.
05-09-2007, 07:22 PM
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#12
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Level 4 - Thinker
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Solid-Liquid Mesh
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Re: The newsletter about lipan conjuring
don't any of u people write in english anymore? i've never seen so much muddling, long-winded language than on a tool site.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hobblegobble
Does it matter
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do you?
05-14-2007, 08:14 AM
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#13
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Banned.
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: you'll never take me alive
Posts: 2,276
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Re: The newsletter about lipan conjuring
Quote:
Originally Posted by hobblegobble
Does it matter
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do you?
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09-29-2007, 11:18 PM
two things- 1 i'm pretty sure tool is screwing around, I doubt they have any actual connection to native american tribes (although if they do that's pretty cool). generally when a member is making a comment on where a song came from, they screw around to see who believes them and who doesn't
2- who called that harmony? there's no harmony in that song. there's a couple voices singing in unison, and for a very short time someone's singing an octave lower than than the rest, but i don't think you can consider it harmony if it's unison/octave
09-29-2007, 11:18 PM
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#14
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Level 6 - Very Deep Thinker
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Long Island
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Re: The newsletter about lipan conjuring
two things- 1 i'm pretty sure tool is screwing around, I doubt they have any actual connection to native american tribes (although if they do that's pretty cool). generally when a member is making a comment on where a song came from, they screw around to see who believes them and who doesn't
2- who called that harmony? there's no harmony in that song. there's a couple voices singing in unison, and for a very short time someone's singing an octave lower than than the rest, but i don't think you can consider it harmony if it's unison/octave
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09-30-2007, 12:45 AM
Rivek - Could you link to where Maynard said that? I'm guessing it's a newsletter or interview or something.
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~DFW
09-30-2007, 12:45 AM
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#15
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Level 9 - Obstreperous
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: SC
Posts: 1,268
Bincount™: 142
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Re: The newsletter about lipan conjuring
Rivek - Could you link to where Maynard said that? I'm guessing it's a newsletter or interview or something.
__________________
"Victory for the Forces of Democratic Freedom!"
~DFW
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if this has been said before, i haven't seen it:
the lipan are credited with introducing the use of peyote to north america. then right after lipan conjuring comes lk/rs.......
and i think the lipan lived closer to the San Antonio area, believe it or not. Of course this CD was made long before any mention of a SA curse. imagine that.
just some thoughts.....
10-09-2007, 07:09 PM
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#16
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Level 4 - Thinker
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: TX
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Re: The newsletter about lipan conjuring
if this has been said before, i haven't seen it:
the lipan are credited with introducing the use of peyote to north america. then right after lipan conjuring comes lk/rs.......
and i think the lipan lived closer to the San Antonio area, believe it or not. Of course this CD was made long before any mention of a SA curse. imagine that.
just some thoughts.....
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11-26-2007, 01:44 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Blue10
if this has been said before, i haven't seen it:
the lipan are credited with introducing the use of peyote to north america. then right after lipan conjuring comes lk/rs.......
and i think the lipan lived closer to the San Antonio area, believe it or not. Of course this CD was made long before any mention of a SA curse. imagine that.
just some thoughts.....
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You people from the americas are crazy, you all think you live in some kind of freakish nightmare destiny flick about curses and shit.
uhmm. I like it, as a prayer. rosetta stoned is the curse.
11-26-2007, 01:44 PM
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#17
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Level 7 - Loquacious
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Roskilde
Posts: 253
Bincount™: 260
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Re: The newsletter about lipan conjuring
Quote:
Originally Posted by Blue10
if this has been said before, i haven't seen it:
the lipan are credited with introducing the use of peyote to north america. then right after lipan conjuring comes lk/rs.......
and i think the lipan lived closer to the San Antonio area, believe it or not. Of course this CD was made long before any mention of a SA curse. imagine that.
just some thoughts.....
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You people from the americas are crazy, you all think you live in some kind of freakish nightmare destiny flick about curses and shit.
uhmm. I like it, as a prayer. rosetta stoned is the curse.
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Yes... Rosetta Stoned is a curse.
That makes massive amounts of fucking sense
12-16-2007, 09:48 PM
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#18
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On Probation
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Missouri
Posts: 435
Bincount™: 130
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Re: The newsletter about lipan conjuring
Yes... Rosetta Stoned is a curse.
That makes massive amounts of fucking sense
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