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NeverTooLoud
05-07-2006, 01:05 AM
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I'm tired of reading threads by people who don't know what they're talking about when it comes to the quality of this new album...I'm curious to know the opinions of people who are actually in the industry and can possibly shed some light on the tecniques, formulas, and the process of how this amazing sounding record was assembled...I've been a Tool fan for longer than i've been an audio engineer, but I honeslty believe that I can be objective when it comes to shit i've waited years to hear...if it were dissapointing, i would have expressed that by not buying 300 dollar tickets from scalpers...The show was amazing...
Old 05-07-2006, 01:05 AM   #1
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PROFESSIONAL AUDIO ENGINEERS/PRODUCERS THREAD

I'm tired of reading threads by people who don't know what they're talking about when it comes to the quality of this new album...I'm curious to know the opinions of people who are actually in the industry and can possibly shed some light on the tecniques, formulas, and the process of how this amazing sounding record was assembled...I've been a Tool fan for longer than i've been an audio engineer, but I honeslty believe that I can be objective when it comes to shit i've waited years to hear...if it were dissapointing, i would have expressed that by not buying 300 dollar tickets from scalpers...The show was amazing...
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xPOGOx's Avatar xPOGOx
05-07-2006, 01:09 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NeverTooLoud
I'm tired of reading threads by people who don't know what they're talking about when it comes to the quality of this new album...I'm curious to know the opinions of people who are actually in the industry and can possibly shed some light on the tecniques, formulas, and the process of how this amazing sounding record was assembled...I've been a Tool fan for longer than i've been an audio engineer, but I honeslty believe that I can be objective when it comes to shit i've waited years to hear...if it were dissapointing, i would have expressed that by not buying 300 dollar tickets from scalpers...The show was amazing...
...then...how is the production...from a professional stand point?
Old 05-07-2006, 01:09 AM   #2
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Re: PROFESSIONAL AUDIO ENGINEERS/PRODUCERS THREAD

Quote:
Originally Posted by NeverTooLoud
I'm tired of reading threads by people who don't know what they're talking about when it comes to the quality of this new album...I'm curious to know the opinions of people who are actually in the industry and can possibly shed some light on the tecniques, formulas, and the process of how this amazing sounding record was assembled...I've been a Tool fan for longer than i've been an audio engineer, but I honeslty believe that I can be objective when it comes to shit i've waited years to hear...if it were dissapointing, i would have expressed that by not buying 300 dollar tickets from scalpers...The show was amazing...
...then...how is the production...from a professional stand point?
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Seven Deep's Avatar Seven Deep
05-07-2006, 01:14 AM
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None of us worked on the album, so you're probably not going to find the droids you're looking for.

If you can't hear the vast sameness of dynamics on this record, god help anyone who pays you to mix their album.
Old 05-07-2006, 01:14 AM   #3
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Re: PROFESSIONAL AUDIO ENGINEERS/PRODUCERS THREAD

None of us worked on the album, so you're probably not going to find the droids you're looking for.

If you can't hear the vast sameness of dynamics on this record, god help anyone who pays you to mix their album.
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NeverTooLoud
05-07-2006, 01:22 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by xPOGOx
...then...how is the production...from a professional stand point?
In my opinion, the production is simple, effective and mostly transparent...Which, I would hope people could appreciate...The focus should be on the music, not the production....I love Lateralus, very well produced...but after sitting on it for 5 years, I love Lateralus more for the production than the songs....This album seems to be the kind of album that I could call an instant classic...All the ingredients are there, for the most part, all in the perfect amounts, and placed in the bowl at the right times..
Old 05-07-2006, 01:22 AM   #4
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Re: PROFESSIONAL AUDIO ENGINEERS/PRODUCERS THREAD

Quote:
Originally Posted by xPOGOx
...then...how is the production...from a professional stand point?
In my opinion, the production is simple, effective and mostly transparent...Which, I would hope people could appreciate...The focus should be on the music, not the production....I love Lateralus, very well produced...but after sitting on it for 5 years, I love Lateralus more for the production than the songs....This album seems to be the kind of album that I could call an instant classic...All the ingredients are there, for the most part, all in the perfect amounts, and placed in the bowl at the right times..
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NeverTooLoud
05-07-2006, 01:25 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Seven Deep
None of us worked on the album, so you're probably not going to find the droids you're looking for.

If you can't hear the vast sameness of dynamics on this record, god help anyone who pays you to mix their album.
Not looking for droids...I'm looking for people with valid reasons for loving/hating the way this album sounds...and since you seem to have no validity to your argument, you may be on your marry way to the other thought provoking threads...thanks for your time...oh...and listen to "right in two" and name a more dynamic tool song
Old 05-07-2006, 01:25 AM   #5
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Re: PROFESSIONAL AUDIO ENGINEERS/PRODUCERS THREAD

Quote:
Originally Posted by Seven Deep
None of us worked on the album, so you're probably not going to find the droids you're looking for.

If you can't hear the vast sameness of dynamics on this record, god help anyone who pays you to mix their album.
Not looking for droids...I'm looking for people with valid reasons for loving/hating the way this album sounds...and since you seem to have no validity to your argument, you may be on your marry way to the other thought provoking threads...thanks for your time...oh...and listen to "right in two" and name a more dynamic tool song
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Seven Deep's Avatar Seven Deep
05-07-2006, 01:27 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NeverTooLoud
The focus should be on the music, not the production....
I agree with you in 80% of cases, but interesting or unorthodox songs can easily lend themselves to clever manipulation of sound. In many cases, good songs can be dragged back down to common level by mediocre production. So in a way, you may be right. These songs are not really that interesting, so the production should follow suit.


Anyone ever seen this before?

http://www.thatvideosite.com/view/2289.html
Old 05-07-2006, 01:27 AM   #6
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Re: PROFESSIONAL AUDIO ENGINEERS/PRODUCERS THREAD

Quote:
Originally Posted by NeverTooLoud
The focus should be on the music, not the production....
I agree with you in 80% of cases, but interesting or unorthodox songs can easily lend themselves to clever manipulation of sound. In many cases, good songs can be dragged back down to common level by mediocre production. So in a way, you may be right. These songs are not really that interesting, so the production should follow suit.


Anyone ever seen this before?

http://www.thatvideosite.com/view/2289.html
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Seven Deep's Avatar Seven Deep
05-07-2006, 01:33 AM
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Right in Two is a perfect example of what I dislike about the sounds on this album. IT seems like the entire mix was sidechained with the kick, and the vocal doubling makes me think I'm listening to a late 90's nu metal passage.
Old 05-07-2006, 01:33 AM   #7
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Re: PROFESSIONAL AUDIO ENGINEERS/PRODUCERS THREAD

Right in Two is a perfect example of what I dislike about the sounds on this album. IT seems like the entire mix was sidechained with the kick, and the vocal doubling makes me think I'm listening to a late 90's nu metal passage.
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NeverTooLoud
05-07-2006, 01:38 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Seven Deep
I agree with you in 80% of cases, but interesting or unorthodox songs can easily lend themselves to clever manipulation of sound. In many cases, good songs can be dragged back down to common level by mediocre production. So in a way, you may be right. These songs are not really that interesting, so the production should follow suit.


Anyone ever seen this before?

http://www.thatvideosite.com/view/2289.html
Songs being interesting is completely subjective...Don't get me wrong...I'm a sucker for great production...I love albums by NIN, radiohead, flaming lips, unkle and the sort because of the great production....but it's been a long while since i've heard an album I liked, front to back, because it just plain evoked the right emotions....I've never seen that video, and must admit that it's one of the coolest things ive ever seen....i'll be dismantling my westlakes monday when I get back to the studio...I particularly love the infinity at around 10-12k....do you know how to achieve this???
Old 05-07-2006, 01:38 AM   #8
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Re: PROFESSIONAL AUDIO ENGINEERS/PRODUCERS THREAD

Quote:
Originally Posted by Seven Deep
I agree with you in 80% of cases, but interesting or unorthodox songs can easily lend themselves to clever manipulation of sound. In many cases, good songs can be dragged back down to common level by mediocre production. So in a way, you may be right. These songs are not really that interesting, so the production should follow suit.


Anyone ever seen this before?

http://www.thatvideosite.com/view/2289.html
Songs being interesting is completely subjective...Don't get me wrong...I'm a sucker for great production...I love albums by NIN, radiohead, flaming lips, unkle and the sort because of the great production....but it's been a long while since i've heard an album I liked, front to back, because it just plain evoked the right emotions....I've never seen that video, and must admit that it's one of the coolest things ive ever seen....i'll be dismantling my westlakes monday when I get back to the studio...I particularly love the infinity at around 10-12k....do you know how to achieve this???
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haich's Avatar haich
05-07-2006, 01:43 AM
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that video is mad!
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Old 05-07-2006, 01:43 AM   #9
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Re: PROFESSIONAL AUDIO ENGINEERS/PRODUCERS THREAD

that video is mad!
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NeverTooLoud
05-07-2006, 01:45 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Seven Deep
Right in Two is a perfect example of what I dislike about the sounds on this album. IT seems like the entire mix was sidechained with the kick, and the vocal doubling makes me think I'm listening to a late 90's nu metal passage.
I don't know man...I'm listening on a cheap pair of sony headphones right now, and I can't pinpoint the sidechain effect you're refering to...and am I to believe you're just not a Tool fan??? You have issues w/ vocal doubling??? Did you feel the same on every other album??? I particularly liked that effect in the title track from the last album....sometimes straight forward doubling..sometimes a couple wisper tracks, sometimes pitched down doubles....
Old 05-07-2006, 01:45 AM   #10
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Re: PROFESSIONAL AUDIO ENGINEERS/PRODUCERS THREAD

Quote:
Originally Posted by Seven Deep
Right in Two is a perfect example of what I dislike about the sounds on this album. IT seems like the entire mix was sidechained with the kick, and the vocal doubling makes me think I'm listening to a late 90's nu metal passage.
I don't know man...I'm listening on a cheap pair of sony headphones right now, and I can't pinpoint the sidechain effect you're refering to...and am I to believe you're just not a Tool fan??? You have issues w/ vocal doubling??? Did you feel the same on every other album??? I particularly liked that effect in the title track from the last album....sometimes straight forward doubling..sometimes a couple wisper tracks, sometimes pitched down doubles....
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Seven Deep's Avatar Seven Deep
05-07-2006, 02:00 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NeverTooLoud
I don't know man...I'm listening on a cheap pair of sony headphones right now, and I can't pinpoint the sidechain effect you're refering to...
The artifact I'm referring to is the quick and drastic reduction in level of almost every instrument every time a kick drum sounds. Since there's no real kick presence until the song gets louder mid way through, you might not be hearing it. It happens when you sidechain a sound to give it more space in the mix, and most people do this when mixing, especially to resolve level conflicts with the bass guitars and kick drums.... but when it's not done with care, it can give the impression that someone is turning your volume up and down rapidly....the "wobble" I mentioned in the other thread. When you couple this with guitars and vocals that are already pushing red, it makes the entire mix sound unstable and overdriven, something I kind of visualize as a pen jabbing into a marshmallow


Quote:
Originally Posted by NeverTooLoud
and am I to believe you're just not a Tool fan???
I doubt I would have given as much money as i have to a band i dislike.

Quote:
Originally Posted by NeverTooLoud
You have issues w/ vocal doubling??? Did you feel the same on every other album???
The doubling on right in two is different from tracks like the Patient or Lateralus.
It's that phased kind of effect that everyone used on albums in the nu-metal glory years to make their moping, mumbling singers sound like ethereal whiners. In that sense it's a perfect fit because the middle portion of the song (3:45 or so) reminds me of the epitome of all that crap, Staind.

Last edited by Seven Deep; 05-07-2006 at 02:04 AM..
Old 05-07-2006, 02:00 AM   #11
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Re: PROFESSIONAL AUDIO ENGINEERS/PRODUCERS THREAD

Quote:
Originally Posted by NeverTooLoud
I don't know man...I'm listening on a cheap pair of sony headphones right now, and I can't pinpoint the sidechain effect you're refering to...
The artifact I'm referring to is the quick and drastic reduction in level of almost every instrument every time a kick drum sounds. Since there's no real kick presence until the song gets louder mid way through, you might not be hearing it. It happens when you sidechain a sound to give it more space in the mix, and most people do this when mixing, especially to resolve level conflicts with the bass guitars and kick drums.... but when it's not done with care, it can give the impression that someone is turning your volume up and down rapidly....the "wobble" I mentioned in the other thread. When you couple this with guitars and vocals that are already pushing red, it makes the entire mix sound unstable and overdriven, something I kind of visualize as a pen jabbing into a marshmallow


Quote:
Originally Posted by NeverTooLoud
and am I to believe you're just not a Tool fan???
I doubt I would have given as much money as i have to a band i dislike.

Quote:
Originally Posted by NeverTooLoud
You have issues w/ vocal doubling??? Did you feel the same on every other album???
The doubling on right in two is different from tracks like the Patient or Lateralus.
It's that phased kind of effect that everyone used on albums in the nu-metal glory years to make their moping, mumbling singers sound like ethereal whiners. In that sense it's a perfect fit because the middle portion of the song (3:45 or so) reminds me of the epitome of all that crap, Staind.

Last edited by Seven Deep; 05-07-2006 at 02:04 AM..
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CCD's Avatar CCD
05-07-2006, 02:13 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Seven Deep

Anyone ever seen this before?

http://www.thatvideosite.com/view/2289.html
That is some trippy shit.
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Old 05-07-2006, 02:13 AM   #12
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Re: PROFESSIONAL AUDIO ENGINEERS/PRODUCERS THREAD

Quote:
Originally Posted by Seven Deep

Anyone ever seen this before?

http://www.thatvideosite.com/view/2289.html
That is some trippy shit.
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Let us now, as Futurists, enter one of these hospitals for anaemic sounds. There: the first bar brings the boredom of familiarity to your ear and anticipates the boredom of the bar to follow. Let us relish, from bar to bar, two or three varieties of genuine boredom, waiting all the while for the extraordinary sensation that never comes.
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CCD's Avatar CCD
05-07-2006, 02:17 AM
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I'm glad you've given your pro opinions on this thread Seven Deep, because as a non-professional there were things I was hearing on 10,000 Days that sounded familiar to me production wise that I couldn't put my finger on.

Though elements of the production may bother others, I think the big punchy sound of this record suits the music and makes the work overall more accessible to me. It may not be a masterpiece of studio craftsmanship, but it r0xx0rs my s0xx0rs.
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Let us now, as Futurists, enter one of these hospitals for anaemic sounds. There: the first bar brings the boredom of familiarity to your ear and anticipates the boredom of the bar to follow. Let us relish, from bar to bar, two or three varieties of genuine boredom, waiting all the while for the extraordinary sensation that never comes.
Old 05-07-2006, 02:17 AM   #13
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Re: PROFESSIONAL AUDIO ENGINEERS/PRODUCERS THREAD

I'm glad you've given your pro opinions on this thread Seven Deep, because as a non-professional there were things I was hearing on 10,000 Days that sounded familiar to me production wise that I couldn't put my finger on.

Though elements of the production may bother others, I think the big punchy sound of this record suits the music and makes the work overall more accessible to me. It may not be a masterpiece of studio craftsmanship, but it r0xx0rs my s0xx0rs.
__________________
Let us now, as Futurists, enter one of these hospitals for anaemic sounds. There: the first bar brings the boredom of familiarity to your ear and anticipates the boredom of the bar to follow. Let us relish, from bar to bar, two or three varieties of genuine boredom, waiting all the while for the extraordinary sensation that never comes.
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NeverTooLoud
05-07-2006, 02:22 AM
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Yes, I'm well aware of the effect you were refering to...I was just expressing that I don't hear it in the song...As a matter of fact, if anything, the kick is burried in this song at times and a bit of sidechaining would have helped...the guitars are very up front and compressed to death....as is the bass....it seems like all the pieces on their own are compressed quite a bit, but I still feel that they weren't overly compressed as a whole...there seems to be very little smearing of the stereo image and without listening on a system that's not bi or tri-amped, no particular frequency seems to be cutting my head off nor lacking....I just find it to be pleasing to the ear...obviously, everyone hears differently, but let's not get into a pepsi challenge....my last comprehensive hearing test would make you green with envy...
Old 05-07-2006, 02:22 AM   #14
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Re: PROFESSIONAL AUDIO ENGINEERS/PRODUCERS THREAD

Yes, I'm well aware of the effect you were refering to...I was just expressing that I don't hear it in the song...As a matter of fact, if anything, the kick is burried in this song at times and a bit of sidechaining would have helped...the guitars are very up front and compressed to death....as is the bass....it seems like all the pieces on their own are compressed quite a bit, but I still feel that they weren't overly compressed as a whole...there seems to be very little smearing of the stereo image and without listening on a system that's not bi or tri-amped, no particular frequency seems to be cutting my head off nor lacking....I just find it to be pleasing to the ear...obviously, everyone hears differently, but let's not get into a pepsi challenge....my last comprehensive hearing test would make you green with envy...
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tDoXoMl
05-07-2006, 03:22 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Seven Deep
I agree with you in 80% of cases, but interesting or unorthodox songs can easily lend themselves to clever manipulation of sound. In many cases, good songs can be dragged back down to common level by mediocre production. So in a way, you may be right. These songs are not really that interesting, so the production should follow suit.


Anyone ever seen this before?

http://www.thatvideosite.com/view/2289.html

So thats how 10000 days was made.
Old 05-07-2006, 03:22 AM   #15
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Re: PROFESSIONAL AUDIO ENGINEERS/PRODUCERS THREAD

Quote:
Originally Posted by Seven Deep
I agree with you in 80% of cases, but interesting or unorthodox songs can easily lend themselves to clever manipulation of sound. In many cases, good songs can be dragged back down to common level by mediocre production. So in a way, you may be right. These songs are not really that interesting, so the production should follow suit.


Anyone ever seen this before?

http://www.thatvideosite.com/view/2289.html

So thats how 10000 days was made.
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holotrope's Avatar holotrope
05-07-2006, 04:43 AM
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***NOT A PRO***

I find the production on 10k days to be somewhere in between lateralus, aenima, and undertow. It has the clarity and separation in the mix like Lateralus (and an almost identical drum sound, though mixed lower), but with the more guitar/bass-heavy mix of Aenima where Lateralus was more vocal/drum heavy.

The muddiness of Aenima is surrogated by the different mixing techniques, which makes things seem more blended, yet when listening on good hi-fi's or headphones, everything has its perfect place in the mix and stereo image. What I noticed though, was that they weren't as obsessive about perfection as on Lateralus. That album is SHINY and there is never an unintended sound anywhere, which is quite different than the clear but raw sound of Undertow, and the sonic ocean that is aenima, which constantly sputters up reflections and wierd frequencies.

This album still has that raw edge, which is not usually as pronounced as on aenima, but more like on Undertow, where it seemed more like a function of their technological/financial limitations, rather than a deliberate aesthetic choice. That's what changed. They are dealing predominantly with earthly, imperfect subject matter on this album, as opposed to most of lateralus and aenima.

So they bring back their rawness to tell you that.

That's my opinion so far about the production sound of this album, but I'm sure it will mutate as I listen more...
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Old 05-07-2006, 04:43 AM   #16
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Re: PROFESSIONAL AUDIO ENGINEERS/PRODUCERS THREAD

***NOT A PRO***

I find the production on 10k days to be somewhere in between lateralus, aenima, and undertow. It has the clarity and separation in the mix like Lateralus (and an almost identical drum sound, though mixed lower), but with the more guitar/bass-heavy mix of Aenima where Lateralus was more vocal/drum heavy.

The muddiness of Aenima is surrogated by the different mixing techniques, which makes things seem more blended, yet when listening on good hi-fi's or headphones, everything has its perfect place in the mix and stereo image. What I noticed though, was that they weren't as obsessive about perfection as on Lateralus. That album is SHINY and there is never an unintended sound anywhere, which is quite different than the clear but raw sound of Undertow, and the sonic ocean that is aenima, which constantly sputters up reflections and wierd frequencies.

This album still has that raw edge, which is not usually as pronounced as on aenima, but more like on Undertow, where it seemed more like a function of their technological/financial limitations, rather than a deliberate aesthetic choice. That's what changed. They are dealing predominantly with earthly, imperfect subject matter on this album, as opposed to most of lateralus and aenima.

So they bring back their rawness to tell you that.

That's my opinion so far about the production sound of this album, but I'm sure it will mutate as I listen more...
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vjtrip
05-07-2006, 06:03 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NeverTooLoud
I'm tired of reading threads by people who don't know what they're talking about when it comes to the quality of this new album...I'm curious to know the opinions of people who are actually in the industry and can possibly shed some light on the tecniques, formulas, and the process of how this amazing sounding record was assembled...I've been a Tool fan for longer than i've been an audio engineer, but I honeslty believe that I can be objective when it comes to shit i've waited years to hear...if it were dissapointing, i would have expressed that by not buying 300 dollar tickets from scalpers...The show was amazing...
So you asked about production elements then told us the live show was amazing. Did you ask the people around you to be quiet while tool played?

just wondering.
Old 05-07-2006, 06:03 AM   #17
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Re: PROFESSIONAL AUDIO ENGINEERS/PRODUCERS THREAD

Quote:
Originally Posted by NeverTooLoud
I'm tired of reading threads by people who don't know what they're talking about when it comes to the quality of this new album...I'm curious to know the opinions of people who are actually in the industry and can possibly shed some light on the tecniques, formulas, and the process of how this amazing sounding record was assembled...I've been a Tool fan for longer than i've been an audio engineer, but I honeslty believe that I can be objective when it comes to shit i've waited years to hear...if it were dissapointing, i would have expressed that by not buying 300 dollar tickets from scalpers...The show was amazing...
So you asked about production elements then told us the live show was amazing. Did you ask the people around you to be quiet while tool played?

just wondering.
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Locarius
05-07-2006, 06:16 AM
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For all those listening on headphones, you are missing the point. The technical problems with this album have nothing to do with clarity or muddyness. The problem with the engineering is that it does not amplify cleanly. Your headphones do not amplify the sound enough to make it stand out.

Take an album with lower compression (The Beatles?), amplify it in your car system and it comes out clean. Take this album and run it through the same system at the same volume (it will sound much louder due to the compression) and you will hear all kinds of leftovers from the recording process. Hisses, clipping, etc.
Old 05-07-2006, 06:16 AM   #18
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Re: PROFESSIONAL AUDIO ENGINEERS/PRODUCERS THREAD

For all those listening on headphones, you are missing the point. The technical problems with this album have nothing to do with clarity or muddyness. The problem with the engineering is that it does not amplify cleanly. Your headphones do not amplify the sound enough to make it stand out.

Take an album with lower compression (The Beatles?), amplify it in your car system and it comes out clean. Take this album and run it through the same system at the same volume (it will sound much louder due to the compression) and you will hear all kinds of leftovers from the recording process. Hisses, clipping, etc.
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05-07-2006, 06:33 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Locarius
For all those listening on headphones, you are missing the point. The technical problems with this album have nothing to do with clarity or muddyness. The problem with the engineering is that it does not amplify cleanly. Your headphones do not amplify the sound enough to make it stand out.

Take an album with lower compression (The Beatles?), amplify it in your car system and it comes out clean. Take this album and run it through the same system at the same volume (it will sound much louder due to the compression) and you will hear all kinds of leftovers from the recording process. Hisses, clipping, etc.

Listened to it on my friends beautiful hi-fi stereo system yesterday, and I don't really agree that this album does not amplify well. The separation was as perfection, the sound was plenty clean, and all the "stray" recording sounds did not jump out, they simply added a bit of atmosphere.

The one exception is the heavily distorted guitar tone- there are certainly times where you can tell the compression has juiced up some unwanted noise (most noticeably on 'vicarious'), BUT if you compare it to any guitar tone on previous tool albums, it is CRUSHING and has a sense of attack and power that is usually brought out only by the concerted effort of more members of the band (i.e. playing together and accentuating the same stuff). This makes sense of Maynard thanking Joe Barressi for the guitar tone, and saying (in another interview) that he did things with the mixing process on this album that tool would not have done, but that it brought out a greater depth in their sound than previous work.

Of course a band like tool could have employed someone to scrub the tracks and take care of 'cleanup', but you can see my post above for a theory on why these 'leftover' sounds were left in.
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Old 05-07-2006, 06:33 AM   #19
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Re: PROFESSIONAL AUDIO ENGINEERS/PRODUCERS THREAD

Quote:
Originally Posted by Locarius
For all those listening on headphones, you are missing the point. The technical problems with this album have nothing to do with clarity or muddyness. The problem with the engineering is that it does not amplify cleanly. Your headphones do not amplify the sound enough to make it stand out.

Take an album with lower compression (The Beatles?), amplify it in your car system and it comes out clean. Take this album and run it through the same system at the same volume (it will sound much louder due to the compression) and you will hear all kinds of leftovers from the recording process. Hisses, clipping, etc.

Listened to it on my friends beautiful hi-fi stereo system yesterday, and I don't really agree that this album does not amplify well. The separation was as perfection, the sound was plenty clean, and all the "stray" recording sounds did not jump out, they simply added a bit of atmosphere.

The one exception is the heavily distorted guitar tone- there are certainly times where you can tell the compression has juiced up some unwanted noise (most noticeably on 'vicarious'), BUT if you compare it to any guitar tone on previous tool albums, it is CRUSHING and has a sense of attack and power that is usually brought out only by the concerted effort of more members of the band (i.e. playing together and accentuating the same stuff). This makes sense of Maynard thanking Joe Barressi for the guitar tone, and saying (in another interview) that he did things with the mixing process on this album that tool would not have done, but that it brought out a greater depth in their sound than previous work.

Of course a band like tool could have employed someone to scrub the tracks and take care of 'cleanup', but you can see my post above for a theory on why these 'leftover' sounds were left in.
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dracomordag's Avatar dracomordag
05-07-2006, 07:29 AM
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i get what you mean about objectivity... i haven't really listened to this album from a engineer standpoint yet. from what i have noticed, i think they could've brought down the guitars maybe even just one dB and brought up justin and danny .5 or so each... because the wall of sound technique works wonders, but you don't need it to be just guitar that's blasting. maybe bring down the master like 1 more dB so you can get rid of some wobble effect

the bass tone on this album really has some issues as well... but that's mainly just because it's Justin's style, and it works most of the time.
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Old 05-07-2006, 07:29 AM   #20
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Re: PROFESSIONAL AUDIO ENGINEERS/PRODUCERS THREAD

i get what you mean about objectivity... i haven't really listened to this album from a engineer standpoint yet. from what i have noticed, i think they could've brought down the guitars maybe even just one dB and brought up justin and danny .5 or so each... because the wall of sound technique works wonders, but you don't need it to be just guitar that's blasting. maybe bring down the master like 1 more dB so you can get rid of some wobble effect

the bass tone on this album really has some issues as well... but that's mainly just because it's Justin's style, and it works most of the time.
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05-07-2006, 09:30 AM
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Im happy with the sound of this album, although i prefer the way Lateralus was recorded, this seems like a more Aenima sound to me. Lateralus seems like a such a tight, solid and straight foreward sound, whereas this has a much more loose ambient and at times experimental sound. One thing im a bit dissapointed with is some of the guitar recording, at points it sounds like theyve used DI, or mic'd up in a bedroom, guitar seems to have a very 'weak' presence during some of the solos.
Old 05-07-2006, 09:30 AM   #21
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Re: PROFESSIONAL AUDIO ENGINEERS/PRODUCERS THREAD

Im happy with the sound of this album, although i prefer the way Lateralus was recorded, this seems like a more Aenima sound to me. Lateralus seems like a such a tight, solid and straight foreward sound, whereas this has a much more loose ambient and at times experimental sound. One thing im a bit dissapointed with is some of the guitar recording, at points it sounds like theyve used DI, or mic'd up in a bedroom, guitar seems to have a very 'weak' presence during some of the solos.
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paraflux
05-07-2006, 10:16 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Seven Deep
None of us worked on the album, so you're probably not going to find the droids you're looking for.

If you can't hear the vast sameness of dynamics on this record, god help anyone who pays you to mix their album.
I wasnt going to reply to this thread even if I do belong in it, until I saw this post and made me crack up.

It's a well-mixed record. Perhaps not as spatial as Bottrill would have done, but they werent looking to inspire us with this one. They wanted a different feel and I understand why now.
Old 05-07-2006, 10:16 AM   #22
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Re: PROFESSIONAL AUDIO ENGINEERS/PRODUCERS THREAD

Quote:
Originally Posted by Seven Deep
None of us worked on the album, so you're probably not going to find the droids you're looking for.

If you can't hear the vast sameness of dynamics on this record, god help anyone who pays you to mix their album.
I wasnt going to reply to this thread even if I do belong in it, until I saw this post and made me crack up.

It's a well-mixed record. Perhaps not as spatial as Bottrill would have done, but they werent looking to inspire us with this one. They wanted a different feel and I understand why now.
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auralassassin
05-07-2006, 10:27 AM
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I'm a professional producer. I'm actually getting ready to fly to Paris in about 4 hours to finish some recording.

I think from a mix perspective this album is sound. I can barely listen to Undertow because it's like nails on a chalk board for me. A proper mix down doesn't have the vocals in the front unless it is pop music. Second of all, when you have a drummer and a bassist like Tool does in the studio, you tend to want that to be out front. A few of the frequency inconsistancies in this album bother me, as they tend to make it sound muddy in places. Now what does FREQUENCY matter to those who have no clue what it means??

Nothing. Shut up and listen to the album. I haven't heard an album in the last 10 years that I wouldn't have changed something about. I've listened to Pink Floyd albums and had to turn them off because of minor errors in mixing. That doesn't make them bad, that makes me OCD.

Take this album for what it's worth, though... and that's a whole lot.

If you want some concept of how great the guy who mixed this album was, download the Seattle Boot and listen to Maynard trying to sing the notes on The Pot... now take your album and listen to Maynard singing on The Pot...

Notice a difference between reallity and the album? That's where my job comes in... Without a producer, Maynard is Ashley Simpson. Well not really, but you get the point.
Old 05-07-2006, 10:27 AM   #23
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Re: PROFESSIONAL AUDIO ENGINEERS/PRODUCERS THREAD

I'm a professional producer. I'm actually getting ready to fly to Paris in about 4 hours to finish some recording.

I think from a mix perspective this album is sound. I can barely listen to Undertow because it's like nails on a chalk board for me. A proper mix down doesn't have the vocals in the front unless it is pop music. Second of all, when you have a drummer and a bassist like Tool does in the studio, you tend to want that to be out front. A few of the frequency inconsistancies in this album bother me, as they tend to make it sound muddy in places. Now what does FREQUENCY matter to those who have no clue what it means??

Nothing. Shut up and listen to the album. I haven't heard an album in the last 10 years that I wouldn't have changed something about. I've listened to Pink Floyd albums and had to turn them off because of minor errors in mixing. That doesn't make them bad, that makes me OCD.

Take this album for what it's worth, though... and that's a whole lot.

If you want some concept of how great the guy who mixed this album was, download the Seattle Boot and listen to Maynard trying to sing the notes on The Pot... now take your album and listen to Maynard singing on The Pot...

Notice a difference between reallity and the album? That's where my job comes in... Without a producer, Maynard is Ashley Simpson. Well not really, but you get the point.
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paraflux
05-07-2006, 10:29 AM
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Nah, assasin, I disagree, Thirteenth Step largely left his voice way more dry than other records, and it showed the beauty in rawness.
Old 05-07-2006, 10:29 AM   #24
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Re: PROFESSIONAL AUDIO ENGINEERS/PRODUCERS THREAD

Nah, assasin, I disagree, Thirteenth Step largely left his voice way more dry than other records, and it showed the beauty in rawness.
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NeverTooLoud
05-07-2006, 11:09 AM
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I think you nailed it paraflux...there is a beauty in rawness...when you can strip everything down to the bare essentials and still have it sound great...you know it's the talent shining thru...very rubin-esque....he's known for that style of production...and again, Tool produced this album themselves...every show i've seen Tool perform was a great experience, and maynard was not pitchy at all...I have a feeling that in the studio his pitch is rather impeccable...
Old 05-07-2006, 11:09 AM   #25
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Re: PROFESSIONAL AUDIO ENGINEERS/PRODUCERS THREAD

I think you nailed it paraflux...there is a beauty in rawness...when you can strip everything down to the bare essentials and still have it sound great...you know it's the talent shining thru...very rubin-esque....he's known for that style of production...and again, Tool produced this album themselves...every show i've seen Tool perform was a great experience, and maynard was not pitchy at all...I have a feeling that in the studio his pitch is rather impeccable...
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NeverTooLoud
05-07-2006, 11:13 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by auralassassin

I've listened to Pink Floyd albums and had to turn them off because of minor errors in mixing. That doesn't make them bad, that makes me OCD.
Wish you were here (remastered gold edition) is the ultimate listening experience and after listening to it literally hundreds of times front to back, I can say that it's nearlly flawless...
Old 05-07-2006, 11:13 AM   #26
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Re: PROFESSIONAL AUDIO ENGINEERS/PRODUCERS THREAD

Quote:
Originally Posted by auralassassin

I've listened to Pink Floyd albums and had to turn them off because of minor errors in mixing. That doesn't make them bad, that makes me OCD.
Wish you were here (remastered gold edition) is the ultimate listening experience and after listening to it literally hundreds of times front to back, I can say that it's nearlly flawless...
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blafuckbla's Avatar blafuckbla
05-07-2006, 11:18 AM
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Do think the production/mixing is overal very good, but, i guess not meant for small computer speakers....
Old 05-07-2006, 11:18 AM   #27
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Re: PROFESSIONAL AUDIO ENGINEERS/PRODUCERS THREAD

Do think the production/mixing is overal very good, but, i guess not meant for small computer speakers....
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NeverTooLoud
05-07-2006, 11:20 AM
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Quote:
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Without a producer, Maynard is Ashley Simpson. Well not really, but you get the point.
Next time you make a remark as retardiculous as this one aural, i'm going to print it up, find out where you live, and give you a paper cut on your left eyeball with it...then i'll have to punch you in whichever ear you have working, ending your career, thusly saving us all from poorly produced records...
Old 05-07-2006, 11:20 AM   #28
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Re: PROFESSIONAL AUDIO ENGINEERS/PRODUCERS THREAD

Quote:
Originally Posted by auralassassin

Without a producer, Maynard is Ashley Simpson. Well not really, but you get the point.
Next time you make a remark as retardiculous as this one aural, i'm going to print it up, find out where you live, and give you a paper cut on your left eyeball with it...then i'll have to punch you in whichever ear you have working, ending your career, thusly saving us all from poorly produced records...
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KJM
05-07-2006, 11:21 AM
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right in two the most dynamic tool song ever? and you know what you're talking about?

the entire lateralus disc is more dynamic than that song. maybe I'm unclear of what you mean by dynamic?
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Old 05-07-2006, 11:21 AM   #29
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Re: PROFESSIONAL AUDIO ENGINEERS/PRODUCERS THREAD

right in two the most dynamic tool song ever? and you know what you're talking about?

the entire lateralus disc is more dynamic than that song. maybe I'm unclear of what you mean by dynamic?
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NeverTooLoud
05-07-2006, 11:44 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KJM
right in two the most dynamic tool song ever? and you know what you're talking about?

the entire lateralus disc is more dynamic than that song. maybe I'm unclear of what you mean by dynamic?
Perhaps you are unclear of what I mean....to be more specific....i'm refering to both aural dynamics and musical dynamics....name one song off of lateralus (other than the title track) that has the peaks and valleys of right in two??? about 6 minutes into the song it gets nearly chaotic, with a great sense of tension...most of the time, the swing in a tool song is from relaxed and mellow to uplifting and inspiring....there seems to be much more encompased in the 9 minutes of right in two....and as for signal to noise ratios....it's hard to compare one to the other since mastering techniques have changed in the past 5 years and overall, 10k days is an overall louder album...more compressed, yes, but certainly not lacking dynamics.

EDIT: ok...I almost overlooked H....probably my favorite, definitly in the top 3 favorite Tool songs....one of the reasons it is are the dynamics of that song...

Last edited by NeverTooLoud; 05-07-2006 at 11:53 AM..
Old 05-07-2006, 11:44 AM   #30
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Re: PROFESSIONAL AUDIO ENGINEERS/PRODUCERS THREAD

Quote:
Originally Posted by KJM
right in two the most dynamic tool song ever? and you know what you're talking about?

the entire lateralus disc is more dynamic than that song. maybe I'm unclear of what you mean by dynamic?
Perhaps you are unclear of what I mean....to be more specific....i'm refering to both aural dynamics and musical dynamics....name one song off of lateralus (other than the title track) that has the peaks and valleys of right in two??? about 6 minutes into the song it gets nearly chaotic, with a great sense of tension...most of the time, the swing in a tool song is from relaxed and mellow to uplifting and inspiring....there seems to be much more encompased in the 9 minutes of right in two....and as for signal to noise ratios....it's hard to compare one to the other since mastering techniques have changed in the past 5 years and overall, 10k days is an overall louder album...more compressed, yes, but certainly not lacking dynamics.

EDIT: ok...I almost overlooked H....probably my favorite, definitly in the top 3 favorite Tool songs....one of the reasons it is are the dynamics of that song...

Last edited by NeverTooLoud; 05-07-2006 at 11:53 AM..
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KJM
05-07-2006, 11:52 AM
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but dynamics isn't just how loud something gets. it's the comparison of the quiets and the louds and the differences between them. I would say most songs off lateralus have much greater difference in those instances.

the patient off the top of my head. parabol to parbola. I always have to crank my stereo up when I listen to parabol and the get my ass kicked and have to turn it down when parabola comes on. I can easily keep 10k at the same volume the whole way through.
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Old 05-07-2006, 11:52 AM   #31
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Re: PROFESSIONAL AUDIO ENGINEERS/PRODUCERS THREAD

but dynamics isn't just how loud something gets. it's the comparison of the quiets and the louds and the differences between them. I would say most songs off lateralus have much greater difference in those instances.

the patient off the top of my head. parabol to parbola. I always have to crank my stereo up when I listen to parabol and the get my ass kicked and have to turn it down when parabola comes on. I can easily keep 10k at the same volume the whole way through.
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05-07-2006, 11:54 AM
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Quote:
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parabol to parbola. I always have to crank my stereo up when I listen to parabol and the get my ass kicked and have to turn it down when parabola comes on.
Same here.
Old 05-07-2006, 11:54 AM   #32
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Re: PROFESSIONAL AUDIO ENGINEERS/PRODUCERS THREAD

Quote:
Originally Posted by KJM
parabol to parbola. I always have to crank my stereo up when I listen to parabol and the get my ass kicked and have to turn it down when parabola comes on.
Same here.
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NeverTooLoud
05-07-2006, 11:56 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KJM
but dynamics isn't just how loud something gets. it's the comparison of the quiets and the louds and the differences between them. I would say most songs off lateralus have much greater difference in those instances.

the patient off the top of my head. parabol to parbola. I always have to crank my stereo up when I listen to parabol and the get my ass kicked and have to turn it down when parabola comes on. I can easily keep 10k at the same volume the whole way through.
I fully understand the concept of dynamic range...if you reread my previous comment, I refered to "peaks and valleys"....the valleys would be the less dynamic points in the song...and again, yes, this album was squashed harder than all the others....but that's not the issue....even after all the compression the dynamics are still present...
Old 05-07-2006, 11:56 AM   #33
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Re: PROFESSIONAL AUDIO ENGINEERS/PRODUCERS THREAD

Quote:
Originally Posted by KJM
but dynamics isn't just how loud something gets. it's the comparison of the quiets and the louds and the differences between them. I would say most songs off lateralus have much greater difference in those instances.

the patient off the top of my head. parabol to parbola. I always have to crank my stereo up when I listen to parabol and the get my ass kicked and have to turn it down when parabola comes on. I can easily keep 10k at the same volume the whole way through.
I fully understand the concept of dynamic range...if you reread my previous comment, I refered to "peaks and valleys"....the valleys would be the less dynamic points in the song...and again, yes, this album was squashed harder than all the others....but that's not the issue....even after all the compression the dynamics are still present...
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05-07-2006, 11:59 AM
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right..of course they are still present. but they're not as great as they were on lateralus.
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Old 05-07-2006, 11:59 AM   #34
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Re: PROFESSIONAL AUDIO ENGINEERS/PRODUCERS THREAD

right..of course they are still present. but they're not as great as they were on lateralus.
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NeverTooLoud
05-07-2006, 12:00 PM
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Just for the record, as of now I think Lateralus is their best sounding album....doesn't make it their best album....my 12 angry men are still deliberating....
Old 05-07-2006, 12:00 PM   #35
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Re: PROFESSIONAL AUDIO ENGINEERS/PRODUCERS THREAD

Just for the record, as of now I think Lateralus is their best sounding album....doesn't make it their best album....my 12 angry men are still deliberating....
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NeverTooLoud
05-07-2006, 12:07 PM
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Quote:
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right..of course they are still present. but they're not as great as they were on lateralus.
OK, perhaps "dynamics" was the wrong term to use....when I say dynamics in this case, I mean the overal evolution of the song....like the dynamics of a story....only in music, it's not just about words...it's how the band members play off one another, how guitar and bass chord progressions are arranged, how time signatures change, among many other things...the "dynamic range" (in db) of this album is a bit more narrow than lateralus, yes...but again....it's also a more "in your face" record w/ less bells and whistles....
Old 05-07-2006, 12:07 PM   #36
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Re: PROFESSIONAL AUDIO ENGINEERS/PRODUCERS THREAD

Quote:
Originally Posted by KJM
right..of course they are still present. but they're not as great as they were on lateralus.
OK, perhaps "dynamics" was the wrong term to use....when I say dynamics in this case, I mean the overal evolution of the song....like the dynamics of a story....only in music, it's not just about words...it's how the band members play off one another, how guitar and bass chord progressions are arranged, how time signatures change, among many other things...the "dynamic range" (in db) of this album is a bit more narrow than lateralus, yes...but again....it's also a more "in your face" record w/ less bells and whistles....
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darksound
05-07-2006, 12:33 PM
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you know no matter what anyone says be it famous producer or just fan... its all a fucking matter of opinion.... love it, hate it, whatever.... just don't force people to believe your side because of your opinion and to each their own.
Old 05-07-2006, 12:33 PM   #37
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Re: PROFESSIONAL AUDIO ENGINEERS/PRODUCERS THREAD

you know no matter what anyone says be it famous producer or just fan... its all a fucking matter of opinion.... love it, hate it, whatever.... just don't force people to believe your side because of your opinion and to each their own.
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05-07-2006, 12:52 PM
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no, darksound... there really is some objectivity involved in mixing. sorry.
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Old 05-07-2006, 12:52 PM   #38
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Re: PROFESSIONAL AUDIO ENGINEERS/PRODUCERS THREAD

no, darksound... there really is some objectivity involved in mixing. sorry.
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05-07-2006, 12:59 PM
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no, darksound... there really is some objectivity involved in mixing. sorry.


There's SOME objectivity in EVERYTHING.
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Old 05-07-2006, 12:59 PM   #39
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Re: PROFESSIONAL AUDIO ENGINEERS/PRODUCERS THREAD

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no, darksound... there really is some objectivity involved in mixing. sorry.


There's SOME objectivity in EVERYTHING.
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05-07-2006, 01:15 PM
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any of you pro types know or want to speculate on recording method...? ie analog or digital...i know the last Queens record, worked by baressi was two inch tape.
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Old 05-07-2006, 01:15 PM   #40
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Re: PROFESSIONAL AUDIO ENGINEERS/PRODUCERS THREAD

any of you pro types know or want to speculate on recording method...? ie analog or digital...i know the last Queens record, worked by baressi was two inch tape.
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