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Old 11-19-2002, 09:54 AM   #1
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The Big Question....

well folks I've listened to this song over and over again and i just can't figure out what maynard is trying to tell us...any ideas?
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Old 11-19-2002, 10:06 AM   #2
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"Let the waters kiss and transmutate these leaden grudges into gold."

Most of us hold grudges and use them for selfish reasons. I think the song is telling us to forgive the grudge instead of "clutching it like a cornerstone."

"Scarlet letterman" refers to Hawthorne's novel The Scarlet Letter... its part in the song pretty interesting.

So, can anyone shed some light on what Saturn's acension means in the song?

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Old 11-19-2002, 10:09 AM   #3
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Re: The Big Question....

I think the most important theme of this song is in the line "Let go, let go, let go....."

I also think it is significant that this song is at the beginning of the album. Comparing Aenima to Lateralus, one can see a different perspective was taken. Going from "I sure could use a vacation from this stupid shit" to "Celebrate this chance to be alive and breathing". Somewhere along the way, the members of Tool experienced something that enabled them to broaden their horizons (of course, this is all speculation).

I think the Grudge is trying to tell us that we must let go of the negativity and desire to control everything that has caused us (as humans) to become what we have: negative and blind and cynical. We must realize that it is our own views on the world that has caused things to suck so badly. We want to grip our grudges so tightly rather than take the chance of being wrong.

And to quote a great movie (Fight Club), "It is only after we have lost everything that we are free to do anything." In order to become the people we know we can be, we must let go of everything that is holding us back. And it is never too late to do this, but our chances are few and far between, like the orbit of Saturn crossing our path. So when we see an opportunity to do something great and to truly evolve our being, we must seize that moment and allow it to bring us to the innonece of a child. Because if we don't, our lifestyles will eventually consume us.

But, hey.....this is just a guess....
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Old 11-19-2002, 10:14 AM   #4
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ummm isn't saturn something to do with chaos and disarray? perhaps it's something to do with a grudge altering rational thought because whoever it is had become consumed by it.
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Old 11-19-2002, 11:15 AM   #5
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I believe that Saturn refers to the beginning and ending of things. The 1 or 10 part refers to this same concept. I believe this idea comes from "The Death" card of the Tarot. Lead is the alchemical metal associated with the Death card as well as with Saturn. Saturn and Shiva seem to be linked in the 'ending' of things. Have you guys ever seen an illustration of Shiva? She is usually shown stepping upon a demon. This demon is supposed to represent base desires and needs. Seems like the Subconscious, id, or shadow (depending on which psychologist you read). I think perhaps the Grudge is someone attempting to step out of their body. If you listen to the song it seems like a person attempting to release their higher self from the constraints of their physical 'needs' and physical 'distractions' The Grudge is the fear that the Subconscious mind feels when it thinks the ego is dying.

If you have ever attempted any astral meditations or experienced sleep paralysis then you will know the fear I am talking about. Its said that the only way to seperate mind and body is to travel through this fear. LET GO! The around 30 second scream in the song might represent the last scream of the id as it tries to maintain its control. Afterwards things move faster and faster until Maynard says Let go...Let go....over and over. This song is at the beginning of the album because it is the first step. Once out of body the exploration begins. The song Reflections seems to close this idea with the line "...crucify the ego before its far too late..." Shiva stepping on the demon...leads to a loss of needs...crucifying the ego removes the individual mind leading to the collective mind...

I havent really looked into the scarlet letterman part yet but I wonder where it fits into this idea.
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Old 11-19-2002, 11:44 AM   #6
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Quote:
"Let the waters kiss and transmutate these leaden grudges into gold."
"Take this grudge and turn it into something productive. Something useful. Grow from it and learn from it."

Quote:
Most of us hold grudges and use them for selfish reasons. I think the song is telling us to forgive the grudge instead of "clutching it like a cornerstone."
Also - a cornerstone is usually the first brick laid in any building. It's the brick that directs the placement of every other brick or stone in the structure. The entire house is built upon that cornerstone.

If you build your entire life and/or existance on the perpetuation of a single (or multiple) grudge(s), what are you really trying to accomplish? There's so much more stuff you could be doing with all of that energy.

Quote:
"Scarlet letterman" refers to Hawthorne's novel The Scarlet Letter... its part in the song pretty interesting.
I'm not well-versed on Hawthorne. Sorry.

Quote:
So, can anyone shed some light on what Saturn's acension means in the song?
There's a ton of info online about Saturn's ascent. Generally, though, I think that most people see it as an astrological perspective. Here's a good start, courtesy of untool.net: http://www.untool.net/saturn_ascends.html
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Old 11-19-2002, 12:26 PM   #7
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What if the cornerstone that we have structured our lives on is a belief system? Perhaps at our very core we are flawed, our understanding is incomplete. We base the rest of our beliefs and decisions upon this flawed idea and therefore all are flawed. We had no idea that we had sabotaged our current state of mind....ignorant to the damage done.

Seems very Descartian...we must Let go of anything which could be false and restart.
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Old 11-19-2002, 12:26 PM   #8
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ShackledEidolon: Wow, now there's a different take on the song, cool. It's really interesting how things seem to work in multiple ways :) I'd like to see how the scarlet letterman might fit into your interpretation, although that definitely isn't a job for me heh.

Thanks for the Saturn/Ascension link Chris.
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Old 11-19-2002, 12:30 PM   #9
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Within: Thank you, I wasn't sure that my ideas would come out articulate enough for others to understand.

If anyone could find a connection with the Scarlet Letterman (more then simply the book it is from) then post it

Chris: That was an excellent link. I really enjoyed it.
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Old 11-19-2002, 01:16 PM   #10
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In terms of alchemy which you can find on many sites online, the story of saturn, a god, not the planet, falls down. this might shed light on the idea of Saturn ascending. if you can find the sight with the wood engravings, it is really informative. good luck.
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Old 11-19-2002, 01:19 PM   #11
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Well, I had just happened to read The Scarlet Letter last spring (before I even noticed its connection to The Grudge) and it seems to fit with the more classical term of grudge than Shackled's (which, by the way, was brilliant. A great new take on the song).

In a nutshell, the story is this: (don't read on if you're planning to read the story)
The setting is colonial New England (Puritan times, etc.) The main character (sorry, I'm at a loss for her name) has committed adultery, and is to bear a child out of wedlock. Despite efforts by the local clergy to get the name of the father, the main character would not produce his name. The church gives her a scarlet A to place on her bosom which she must wear for the rest of her life, marking her sin for all so see.

Eventually, the woman's real husband (who had not yet come to America yet) living in Europe and a successful doctor came home. In order to preserve his reputation in the area, he and the main character agreed to pretend that they had never met. So, to make a long story short, the book progresses, her husband gradually goes mad, eventually the clergy tells the main character that she can take off the letter but she refuses, and at the end it turns out to be the most well respected priest in the county who was the father of the child.

One of the main ideas that comes to mind through this is how the priest reacted to the situation. By his religion, what he did was "wrong." Rather than confess, the priest tore himself up inside in response to the guilt he felt, secretly torturing himself at night, and may have ended up commiting suicide at the end. The details are fuzzy, I really wasn't paying much attention.

So, who is the mysterious Scarlet Letterman that Maynard refers to? The main character? The priest? Either way, the main theme here is that the basic structure that this Puritan society was based around said that adultery was wrong, and from that very basic cornerstone all of this madness ensued. I suppose Maynard is saying that, rather than punishing those who violated these basic, silly ideas, do away with the ideas themselves.

Perhaps someone else who has read the book can shed some more light on the subject.
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Old 11-19-2002, 01:28 PM   #12
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here is also a link that may be of interest to those of you using the Alchemical interpretation:
http://www.pixelcraft.com.au/alchemy...n/solution.htm
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Old 11-19-2002, 02:14 PM   #13
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The Border Line- Thanks for the info about the Scarlet Letterman. That was what I thought it was however I couldn't remember for sure.

I think this bit can be applied to both interpretations...obviously you have struck upon the concept in your last paragraphs.

The basic belief structure is causing pain and suffering...keeping the characters from finding happiness or even experiencing anything besides shame and fear.

If we take this further it can be applied to questioning our belief system...the characters violated this belief structure in action...the consequence of the belief was this self torment. There is such guilt associated with thinking on our own, self discovery, removing oneself from the common man that most people are afraid to do it. If you have ever tried reading an occult related book or even just a biblish book from another religion you get that feeling that your doing something wrong.

We are afraid to exist outside of our society...we are afraid to do anything that will take us outside of our comfortable cliques, social circles, and political ties...this fear is what kills our spiritual developement. This fear is what causes us to blindly follow in the wake of someone else who has thought for us. By clutching so tightly to this belief system that has been so important to us from the very beginning we have infected ourselves with a fear and guilt when we are exposed to anything that does not nicely and easily fit into that belief system...or even when our current belief system is slightly dissonant with our past one.

The characters in that book seem to have decided to have sex outside of wedlock which was previously within their belief system however they show that their current belief is one that accepts it...for enlightenists this could be something like stepping out of a 2D world into a 3D world and then coming back to describe it (3D) to your 2D counterparts. (similar to Plato's Cave)(Simpsons Episode was great also) Not only will your 2D counterparts NOT understand what you have brought them but it will violate their belief system ("there isnt a third diminsion!") enough to leave a mark of stigma on you. They will try to show you the error of your ways and make you feel guilty for ever proposing them. In our world we are supposed to go to church (but not think to hard about it) go to school, get a high paying job that will buy us expensive things that we are supposed to want. If we go off on a spiritual journey we aren't doing the things we are supposed to do and so we feel guilty, limiting our own growth. This still works for my idea tho...destroy the id (our idea for immediate satisfaction) and we can concentrate on more important things...leave behind these meaningless limitations and grow
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Old 11-19-2002, 06:18 PM   #14
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"I think the most important theme of this song is in the line "Let go, let go, let go....."

I also think it is significant that this song is at the beginning of the album. Comparing Aenima to Lateralus"

i just smacked myself across the face for never making that conclusion.
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Old 11-19-2002, 11:26 PM   #15
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The Grudge's theory behind Saturn's ascent is much more simple than the astological symbolism that has already been brought up. The planet Saturn orbits around the sun every aprroximately 27 years or so, maybe longer. Maynard I believe has said in an interview that those twenty seven years or so make up a very important part of our lives. Once the years are over, we have to look back on life and make sure that we are going just where we wanted to go. In other words, when Saturn comes back around, we need to let go of our grudges and simply grow up and continue on in our lives. That may be over simplifying it, but that is the easiest way to explain things most of the time.

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Old 11-20-2002, 12:17 AM   #16
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turn it on religion!

It's that time again! Time to bash christianity with the lyrics of a tool song. Yeah!!!

Ok. To start, the first verse. "Wear the grudge like a crown of negativity, Calculate what we will or will not tolerate," I think the opening two lines focus on the unexcepting nature of christianity. Many sects of christianity turn away gays, people of other races, and those of different life styles. The second line shows how the church defines what is acceptiable for its member, through commandments and other forms of dogma. "Desperate to control all and everything," deals with the christianities desire to be the one and only religion. In the past it often times was the church that controlled everything. Much like the time period that The Scarlet Letter took place in. "Unable to forgive your scarlet lettermen," Wait.... correct me if i'm wrong, but wasn't it the chruch that persecuted Hester Prynne..... Holy Shit! it was!

On to the next verse. "Clutch it like a cornerstone. Otherwise it all comes down. Justify denials and grip them to the lonesome end," this one is about the churchs belief structure. Whatever the church has decided is right has to be followed no matter what. Belief is the cornerstone of religion and therefore has to be right, because it's God's will, of course! That's why they have to justify their beliefs even if they're wrong. If they don't their religion will fall apart. "Terrified of being wrong. Ultimatium prison cell," what scares a good christian more than a tool concert? The thought that their religion might not be right! So they've locked themselves into they're beliefs. This attitude going complete agaiinst the "think for yourself" thing.

The rest of the song restates the first two verses with alot of reference to saturn in there. Every good christian knows that saturn and things like astronomy are tools (ha) of the devil. This is further proof that this song is anti-religion.

The only other line that I can manipulate into an anti-christian message is, "Defining, confining, controlling, and we're sinking deeper." This line focuses on christianities desire to define, confine, and control our lives. They are weighing us down, pulling us down to the bottom.

Well hasn't this been fun. If you can find any other anti-christian messages in this song (by say, playing it backwards or slowing it down ; ) please add them to this thread. I must re-enforce this is just what I hear in this song and it is incrediably biased. Hope you enjoyed it!
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Old 11-20-2002, 05:22 AM   #17
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hmmmm, This has been a great read guys.

I had never thought of it as anti religious. That would also explain the line "Ignorant to the damage done", as religion has been the single most destructive force in human history. An example of their ignorance is the term "Holy war", which is a textbook example of an oxymoron.

Is the scarlett letter a good read? I might pick it up from the local library.
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Old 11-20-2002, 07:13 AM   #18
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Interesting stuff. The thing I like most about any Tool song is that it has multiple layers of information to be used. There is the literal, the somewhat deep and complex, and the entirely complex....then there is just facets to clinch your teeth into. Lyrics are structured in a way to be interpreted in many different ways...you can come up with virtually anything from the clues but thats the beauty. The song is a springboard for creative thoughts and a facilitator of deep communication...perhaps we are looking beyond the original message of the song but isnt that the point. The music becomes more then the sum of its parts when it is used to stimulate thought. This message board has allowed us to really bounce ideas off of one another and see things almost for the first time

Parable - I had wondered about that before...how old is Maynard? I assume he is older then 27 at this point in time but it would be interesting to know if anything important happened in his life at the age of 27. When was his son born?
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Old 11-20-2002, 08:55 AM   #19
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This has been a great thread, I've never thought of The Grudge as a statement about Christianity, but your interpretations definitely do make sense. I'm glad these forums have opened up I'm learning so much more now. Tool just keeps getting better and better.
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Old 11-20-2002, 01:52 PM   #20
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Call me crazy, but I get the feeling that you're being a smartass. =)

Correct me if I'm wrong....
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Old 11-20-2002, 11:08 PM   #21
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While the Scarlet Letter reference definitely brings up a religious undertone, it is not necessary for it to be so. I really appreciate what was said about Saturn's 27 year orbit (I'm not verifying truth here, just saying it is an interesting angle) and I have nothing to add to that. But the opening verse, in which the Scarlet Letter reference is made, other factors have been ignored.
"Wear the grudge like a crown..." Crowns, associated with royalty, are symbols of power. What power? The power to "calculate" what will be tolerated, the power to "control all and everything" within one's kingdom. Why "desperate to control" if wearing the crown indicates one as having power? This has to do with where the power comes from. A grudge held against a friend, a constant reminder to someone close of what they had done or how they had hurt the one holding the grudge, could be held onto indefinitely. Marking this other person with a scarlet letter, which in the novel (as mentioned above) was a sentence to last the entire life of Hester Prynne, would be the equivalent of never forgiving another, and holding the act above them at all times in order to manipulate them. The inability to forgive the "scarlet letterman" is the cornerstone of one's power. In this situation, the relationship will not last, only sink, unless the grudge is "let go."
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Old 11-21-2002, 01:03 AM   #22
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uh...

okay, well it's pretty fucking obvious everyone has raped this song.

if the cornerstone simile has anything to do with the bible, so what?

saturn most likely deals with the tarot meaning. thus, this line is a metaphor.

the scarlet letter was about holding a grudge. well NO SHIT he's going to use this as a metaphor as well.

don't take the damn song so seriously. take the advice, instead. what's the advice, you ask? don't hold grudges. how he says it isn't the issue, letting go of your grudges is.
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Old 11-21-2002, 05:47 AM   #23
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saturns accension

i read somewhere that saturn takes 36 years or so to make a revolution around the sun. maynard was about that age when the song was written.
i believe that it is talking about either letting go of something or "letting it drag you down like a stone"
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Old 11-21-2002, 08:17 AM   #24
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Schwarze Katz

I do agree that there is a lot of reference to power used in the beginning and a some kind of threat to that power. The power is based off of the negative thoughts and feelings, opression/repression. But this can mean a lot of different things to a lot of different people. Earlier I had mentioned that this seems like the shadow or possibly the ego holding its grip on the soul. I would have to say that I have moved more towards the latter concept now.

The Ego is responsible for creating and maintaining our identity. If things become too much or threaten this identity then the Ego represses it in some way. This repression creates the shadow (id). In this the Ego calculates what is and is not safe for the identity as a whole. It decides what we will and will not accept about the world or ourselves. It is because of this function that we can not give up our current world views.

On the road to enlightenment we find ourselves asking questions of this nature. Who am I? Normally we would simply answer by giving our name, or our occupation, or our status. These we feel are our identity...however these are not the things that define us...money is not a definition of who we are however we will say that I am a Doctor or I am a banker etc. These answers, my name is___, I am a ______, these are ways to skirt around the question. The easy way out. In order to find the truth and get to the core and find what we are we have to be willing to give away these things. Realize that these things do not define us and may even be meaningless.

The result of this action is an identity crisis. Without anyway to define itself the ego goes mad. It grips at anything that will give it a map, a structure, it is as if it is falling perpetually and searching for the ground that will snuff its fear. This fear and pain is that which has been eluded to in so many Tool songs. We have to grow from this pain. We cannot experience this pain and recoil back to an easy answer, we must step through it.

Without the Grudge, the easy answers, the refusal to look further for risk of pain, the soul is free to discover the truth to remove its cold fated anchor that is holding it in one place and allows it to move and progress.

As far as the reference to Saturn...there have been a lot of really good things said about it. I think that it is a powerful lyric because it has meaning in so many ways. On one hand we have the number of years that Saturn takes to make a complete trip around the Sun corresponding to some major time in the life. This mid life crisis or event is an identity crisis....one becomes childish or tries to redefine their lives at this point because they dont like the way they are going or are unhappy with their identity...letting go of those things that are truly meaningless. On the other hand we also have the alchemical reference to Saturn being the beginning and ending of events which is still this same concept. The ending is the slaying of the identity. And the beginning is the creation of a new. When we choose to fall back into the same pattern by creating another identity based on a new job or a new spouse or a new car or something we are ignorant to the spiritual damage we have caused ourselves by dropping anchor again.

This perpetual cycle of destruction and rebirth is also echoed in the concepts of reincarnation and the hope of breaking this cycle...if we choose to continue identifying in the same ways as we have been then we will never break free and change into something better.

I think the jist of this comes down to the idea that we must give up the safe things and give up the identity that we have and start on uncertain ground. Give up our idea of control over the world because in reality we have no control and have only been limiting ourselves with our notions of status/power/and spiritual censorship. This notion sets the stage for the rest of the album and clears the mind of the individual for something new.

Of course this song is about giving up grudges but these grudges are on differing layers of complexity....it can be the everyday ones...it can be giving up the meaning of the scarletletter and allowing the A to mean angel instead of adulterer, or it can mean relinquishing control and swimming in the chaos that ensues (giving out your 30 second maynard scream as you lose yourself...and your identity dies)

Sorry about writing a book, I hope you enjoyed
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Old 11-28-2002, 11:50 PM   #25
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Re: The Big Question....

If you haven't realized it yet, Maynard is known to write many of his songs about relationships/experiences with people whether he is upfront with it or not. I believe the point of this song is about a personal "grudge" he has experienced and what he wants the 'listener' to take from it is to "let go" from all the bullshit and grudges that people hold.
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Old 12-04-2002, 02:59 PM   #26
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scarlet lettermen

the "scarlet lettermen" refers to the bearers of scarlet letters, a version of a form of puritan punishment in which a criminal must create a sign declaring his transgressions and wear it around his neck. in Nathaniel Hawthorne's story, Hester Prynne was actually punished in an apparently milder form of the punishment of branding. generally, an adulturer would be branded on the forehead, cheek, hand, etc. i'm not sure if this was necessarily a standard for puritan societies, or if the punishments were discretionary. regardless, the term "scarlet letterman" in the lyrics of The Grudge refers to the bearers of such punishment.

the imagery of a scarlet letter specifically is definately a link to hawthorne's novel, as it isn't a specified form of punishment for the letter/sign to be scarlet. of course, this doesn't necessitate a direct reference to characters in the story, but more likely just the idea of a person who is begrudged.

on the other hand, the line "transmutate these leaden grudges into gold" makes me think of how the character of Hester Prynne, through her force of personality, was able to transform the scarlet letter from a bane into a blessing (as was alluded to by ShackledEidolon).

just thought i'd elaborate :) my little bit of research on puritan forms of punishment is very unofficial, so if anyone finds anything to contradict me, please let me know.
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Old 12-05-2002, 04:22 PM   #27
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Re: Re: The Big Question....

I think you are right on with this one. Aside from Ticks and Leeches, the Lateralus album seemed to have more of a message of forgiveness, or in this case, letting go of any grudges, because it all ends up a burden on the self.


Quote:
Originally posted by sadi
I think the most important theme of this song is in the line "Let go, let go, let go....."

I also think it is significant that this song is at the beginning of the album. Comparing Aenima to Lateralus, one can see a different perspective was taken. Going from "I sure could use a vacation from this stupid shit" to "Celebrate this chance to be alive and breathing". Somewhere along the way, the members of Tool experienced something that enabled them to broaden their horizons (of course, this is all speculation).

I think the Grudge is trying to tell us that we must let go of the negativity and desire to control everything that has caused us (as humans) to become what we have: negative and blind and cynical. We must realize that it is our own views on the world that has caused things to suck so badly. We want to grip our grudges so tightly rather than take the chance of being wrong.

And to quote a great movie (Fight Club), "It is only after we have lost everything that we are free to do anything." In order to become the people we know we can be, we must let go of everything that is holding us back. And it is never too late to do this, but our chances are few and far between, like the orbit of Saturn crossing our path. So when we see an opportunity to do something great and to truly evolve our being, we must seize that moment and allow it to bring us to the innonece of a child. Because if we don't, our lifestyles will eventually consume us.

But, hey.....this is just a guess....
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Old 12-05-2002, 04:46 PM   #28
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I always took the song pretty literally. Maynard perhaps was talking about someone who was holding a grudge against him.

"Clutch it like a cornerstone, otherwise it all comes down"

If you let go of the grudge, then all this hatred between us will disappear.

In fact every line in the song fits very easily into the theory that he was literally talking about a grudge. My favorite line in the song is: "Wear the grudge like a crown of negativity, calculate what we will or will not tolerate." Wear the grudge, refers to "the grudge" as something that you have hanging over your head, that you can cast away at any time, but don't. "calculate what we will or will not tolerate" is an excellent line. We get so caught up in life that we lose sight of what's really important. I dont' think the song is about religion, but I do think a religious zealot is the perfect example of someone who calculates what they will or will not tolerate. You shouldn't be so uptight about whats tolerable and whats not you should just let it go.
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Old 01-21-2003, 04:47 PM   #29
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Re: Re: The Big Question....

I'm surprised no one else has picked up on this yet, but David Talbott authored a book in 1979 called "The Saturn Myth". A summary is as follows:

"Intrigued by Velikovsky's claim that Saturn was once the pre-eminent planetary god, David Talbott resolved to examine its mythical character. "I wanted to know,", he wrote, "if ancient sources had a coherent story to tell about the planet ... I had no inkling of the spectacular tale hidden in the chronicles.

In this startling re-interpretation of age-old symbolism Talbott argues that the "Great God" or "Universal Monarch" of the ancients was not the sun, but Saturn, which once hung ominously close to the earth, and visually dominated the heavens.

Talbott's close textual and symbolic analysis reveals the fundamental themes of Saturn imagery and proves that all of them -- including the "cosmic ship", the "island at the top of the world", the "eye of heaven" and "the revolving temple" were based on celestial observations in the northern sky. In addition he shows how such diverse symbols as the Cross, "sun"-wheels, holy mountains, crowns of royalty and sacred pillars grew out of ancient Saturn worship. Talbott contends that Saturn's appearance at the time, radically different from today, inspired man's leap into civilization, since many aspects of early civilization can be seen as conscious efforts to re-enact or commemorate Saturn's organization of his "celestial" kingdom."

Thus, an ascension (or appearance in the sky) of Saturn would symbolize the destruction of the only thing we can be sure of, that is, that the sun will appear before us every day. Letting go of this belief will help us let go of everything else, including our grudges.

Now "the one, the ten" I'm still not sure of...
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Old 01-21-2003, 07:56 PM   #30
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this song affects me in a very odd way. it strengthens the hate that i have for those i.. well, hate. this is actually not destructive or affecting my life in any "negative" way. let me tell you why i am affected this way. the line talking about transmutation really got me thinking. what if forgiveness is not the only option for "healing" and letting go. what if all it took was an alteration in how you perceived the grudge.

you have to keep in mind that gold is just about as heavy as lead. it's just "higher" in alchemy speak. to transmutate a grudge would be to remove any impurities from it. to understand why you really hated that person. a grudge has a bunch of little things that automatically go along with it. you get upset about things the person does. what they say/wear/do. all of these things detract from the real reason why you hate them. the scream is very important here because it's primal and intense. for maynard it might've been a letting go scream but for me it's a letting go of all the petty things and really really hating THE PERSON- which really isn't as bad for me as one might think.
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Old 01-23-2003, 10:38 AM   #31
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Quote:
Originally posted by Cracker
Is the scarlett letter a good read? I might pick it up from the local library.
The scarlett letter is a VERY slow read. I usually enjoy reading, but the Scarlett Letter is agonizing. If you really want to know the story, just get cliff notes or something like that. Don't waste your time.
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Old 01-23-2003, 11:15 AM   #32
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It seems to me that "The Grudge" is about maintaining a position of power, and the fear of losing that power. the grudge in the song is the set of ideals that a ruler lives by. He must "calculate what we will or will not tolerate". The ruler must always be seen as being right. As a ruler, being wrong causes you to lose power in the eyes of your subjects.

"clutch it like a cornerstone. otherwise it all comes down. Justify denials and grip 'em to the lonesome end.": The ruler must always be right, his laws and ideals form the basis of his power. If he admits a mistake, people will be more likely to question him in the future.

"Terrified of being wrong. Ultimatum prison cell": Since being wrong causes a ruler to lose power. It is only natural that he would be terrified of it. Since he is "desperate to control all and everything" he cannot be wrong. This grudge traps him, and he cannot change his mind or admit he was wrong, ever.

"Saturn ascends...": People have already said a lot about this, so I won't go into detail. Something that I haven't seen mentioned is that in Roman Mythology, Saturn was one of the Titans and ruled the universe. His Greek equivalent was Kronos, who was eventually overthrown by his son, Zeus.

It is interesting how Saturn can "lift you up like a child" or "drag you down like a stone". I think this is referring to the fact that the grudge is a two edged sword. It can actually help a ruler, but It is always a gamble and If it is wrong, It will destroy a ruler entirely unless he can let go of the stone. I also would like to note that the higher you go, the farther you have to fall.

"Defining, confining, controlling, and we're sinking deeper": This refers to the prison cell idea. The more that a ruler exerts his power, the more he is trapped into the grudge.

"Drags you down like a stone to consume you till you choose to let this go": The ruler who is afraid to lose some power will never be able to let the grudge go. The ruler will be ruled by the grudge. If a ruler cannot admit when he is wrong then he will destroy himself.

"Give away the stone.... Let go": Here, the lyrics urge the ruler to forget the grudge. Once a ruler can admit that he is wrong, steps can be taken to correct whatever happened as a result of his actions. The healing begins.
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Old 01-27-2003, 05:53 PM   #33
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scarlet letter

Personally, i loved the scarlet letter and i recommend it to you, but i see the scarlet lettermen as the people who forced her to wear the letter. But, in bowing to the constraints of society, Hester was forced to create her own constraints and own standards of behavior. Reverend Dimmesdale (her co adulterer) couldnt accept the scorn of society and succumbed to the shame by carving a letter on his breast and dying of his own dismalness. So i guess the point im trying to make is that in order to accept your actions and their consequences, you have to reconcile your sin/break from accepted soceity with yourself and society. Actually i dont really know the point im making, i wrote 3 pages on this book and i understand the concepts, but cant really relate it to the song too well. If you can, thats great.
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Old 01-27-2003, 06:27 PM   #34
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The Grudge

I just assumed "clutch you like a cornerstone" refered to what is talked about in Holy Blood Holy Grail. That the Knights Templar/ Priore de Sion beleived in refering to Jesus as a "cornerstone", that which all else is built. Or conversly, the bloodline that was the foundation for the Merovingian Kings and the special powers associated with it. It's towards t he beginning of the book.
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Old 01-27-2003, 08:57 PM   #35
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Just thought i would share this with you. Here is a quote from maynard in an interview i found while exploreing around on the articles section of the webpage
"Definitely the majority of the record is about re-communication,
about understanding where you are in reference to where you’ve been
and where you’re going. It’s the process of letting go of old baggage
and the evaluation of your place. If you’re into astrology or any of
that kind of stuff, there’s a process called the Saturn Return--your
30-year cycle. It’s something like a mid-life crisis, where you step
back and reevaluate."
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Old 01-28-2003, 08:08 PM   #36
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Nice, I really enjoyed reading everyone's insight. I thought I'd just put in my thoughts on the Scarlet Letterman.

Hester Prynne was branded with a scarlet letter, an "A" on her chest for Adulterer. She makes the most of the situation and builds on this, freeing herself. By the end of the book, the A that originally implied "Adulterer" was turned into "Able", and other positive definitions.

This parallels the song's message of freeing yourself from being limited by an aspect of life, like a grudge.
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Old 01-28-2003, 10:03 PM   #37
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whoops i forgot to post all of the quote.

MJK: Definitely the majority of the record is about re-communication,
about understanding where you are in reference to where you’ve been
and where you’re going. It’s the process of letting go of old baggage
and the evaluation of your place. If you’re into astrology or any of
that kind of stuff, there’s a process called the Saturn Return--your
30-year cycle. It’s something like a mid-life crisis, where you step
back and reevaluate.


MJK: I think we all have, you know? The Saturn Return—I’m not that
fluent in astrology or hocus pocus—but it’s a 28-30 year cycle where
when you’re born Saturn is in one position and it takes approximately
29 years to come all the way back around. It just so happens that it
coincides with the majority of people’s reevaluation of their lives.
It’s kind of a traumatic time, because you’re trying to figure out
who you are and what the hell you’ve been doing for 30 years, and
recognizing patterns. Like, “Why do I keep ending up with these same
people in my life?”—that kind of stuff. Also, for the most part most
of your favorite records are the first three records of a band’s
career. So, here we are on our fourth record. Do we evolve past where
we came from and make it better, or do we fall under the same pattern
that all of our peers have and make the disappointing fourth record?
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Old 02-08-2003, 11:17 AM   #38
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FYI

Just to clear things up Saturn revolves around the sun every 29.5 Earth years. As far as the astrology side of it I found an article on that claims this...
Saturn represents our limitations, our restrictions,yet it is also our inner mentor and teacher. His lessons are manifested only over time, after which we go through inner rebirth and enjoy spiritual growth. The times these life changing events can occur are usually when Saturn returns and testing takes place within different disciplines. Saturn returns with appearances at age 29, when we face the discipline of maturity; at 59 when we face the discipline of acceptance and wisdom; and at 88 few people make it to the third return.

I guess that might explain why the phrase "Saturn ascends"
appears three times in the song
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Old 02-11-2003, 03:27 PM   #39
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So, is there any way that the ascention of Saturn and The Scarlet Letter can be linked; and, is how does this fit into the overall theme of the album?

I tend tothink of the song kind of as a timeline.
I h beginning he's saying "wear the grudge ike a crown" and "clutch it like cornerstone" and then at the end it's "let go"
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Old 02-14-2003, 06:56 PM   #40
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This is probably WAY off, but what the hell...

The Grudge is speaking of the government and their attempts at controling our thoughts, actions, and overall lives. Although...this only explains a portion of the lyrics.

"Calculate what we will or will not tolerate." - Government telling us what our actions will be.

"Defining, confining, controlling, and we're sinking deeper." - Government "Defining, confining, controlling" our lives, and we are sinking deeper until we eventually hit the bottom, caused by the government.

"Let's you choose what you will not see and then
Drags you down like a stone or lifts you up again
Spits you out like a child, light and innocent." - Them choosing "what you will not see", which means the corrupt government hiding things from their citizens. "Spits you out like a child, light and innocent." means the citizens cannot do nothing about it and are disabled and gullible, like a child.

"Let the waters kiss and
Transmutate these leaden grudges into gold." - Let the evil governments be overthrown and the nations grudges between each other about different things (land, money, religious freedoms) be done away with, that all nations will then live in harmony amongst each other. Which also means the grudges are caused by the government.

Sorry for my repetitive use of the word 'government'.

DIK
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