"As below so above and beyond"
I'm pretty sure this is an altered version of the somewhat uncommon phrase "As above so below" first written by ancient mystic/alchemist Hermes Trismegistus (whom i know little about only from a google search). Why the alteration? I don't know, but i think the original has somewhat (perhaps) christian connotations, dealing especially with man's actions on earth and god's in heaven. The swap perhaps was meant to rid the line of those connotations and deal more directly with the essence of the phrase...
which is why the line stuck out to me in the first place. It is the nature of all things. Every system (i.e. every object) in the universe is composed of sub-systems, and those of sub-sub-systems, and those of sub-sub-sub-systems, etc. on into infinity. Similarly, every system interacts with other systems to make a super system, which interacts with other super-systems to make super-super-systems, etc. For example, humans are made up of organs that are made of cells that are made of molecules that are made up of atoms... etc. Conversely, humans interact to form small communities that form societies that form nations that form cultures that form the global community, etc... Everything goes infinitly down and infinitly up. The microcosm is the same in nature as the macrocosm. This is the spiral. A spiral within a spiral within a spiral within a spiral...
Of course, this song is not a discussion about this, certainly not from the logical breakdown i just gave. It doesn't seem to be conceptualizing it, but rather seeing and sensing and feeling and breathing the infinite, succumbing to its overwhelming beauty and complexity. This spiral cannot be fully appreciated from a logical/reason-based perspective. First, because of the inherent paradox of logic and second because logic itself is system and part of the spiral (sort of)... um, i suppose i don't really know how to say it better than that. Anyway, i highly recommend contemplating this (meditate, stare at the leaves and branches of a plant, look at yourself in the mirror, peer across a horizon dotted with cities and highways, oh and listen to music). A lot of you probably know exactly what I'm talking about (its probably why you listen to Tool).
Anyway, as for the song overall, i think its a philosophical journey. As others have said on this forum, the black and white is the beginning. 'Seeing in black and white'; things are true or they are not, they are good or they are evil, etc... the introduction of other colors is coming to realize (simply put) that you always held for true might not be; the creating of your own ideas now and a general open-mindedness.... shit i have to go... ill finish later if requested...
I don't know if Hermes (Thoth) was the originator of this, it would probably be much older, this is at the root of all magic and religion. The phrase as I knew it is-As below So above. Adding the and beyond just says - unto infinity
I really think its just about pushing yourself outside of your boundaries...
It fits in context with the verse.
"As below so above and beyone I imagine
Drawn beyond the lines of reason..."
It means that there are no limits as to what the mind can accomplish as long as you push yourself beyond your limits, hence the following line:
"Push the envelope, watch it bend"
Remember the Leary speech? "Put yourself in a state of vulnerable openmindedness... to inform yourself"
It makes sense to me.
__________________ Do you know what Nemesis means?
Actually, the other day I was reading a book titles "Magic, Mystery, and Science: The occult in western civilization" and I came across the phrase "As above so below". I returned the book already so I cant remember exactly where it is used, but it said the the opposite "as below so above" also has meaning. The meaning of "as below so above" has something to do with events in nature or dreams or anything foreshadowing events in your life, or something along those lines. That is not the exact quote, but it is really close. I will try and find the exact phrasing and post it sometime in the near future, but for now this is all I have. Thanks.
"As below so above and beyond"
I'm pretty sure this is an altered version of the somewhat uncommon phrase "As above so below" first written by ancient mystic/alchemist Hermes Trismegistus (whom i know little about only from a google search). Why the alteration? I don't know, but i think the original has somewhat (perhaps) christian connotations, dealing especially with man's actions on earth and god's in heaven. The swap perhaps was meant to rid the line of those connotations and deal more directly with the essence of the phrase...
which is why the line stuck out to me in the first place. It is the nature of all things. Every system (i.e. every object) in the universe is composed of sub-systems, and those of sub-sub-systems, and those of sub-sub-sub-systems, etc. on into infinity. Similarly, every system interacts with other systems to make a super system, which interacts with other super-systems to make super-super-systems, etc. For example, humans are made up of organs that are made of cells that are made of molecules that are made up of atoms... etc. Conversely, humans interact to form small communities that form societies that form nations that form cultures that form the global community, etc... Everything goes infinitly down and infinitly up. The microcosm is the same in nature as the macrocosm. This is the spiral. A spiral within a spiral within a spiral within a spiral...
Of course, this song is not a discussion about this, certainly not from the logical breakdown i just gave. It doesn't seem to be conceptualizing it, but rather seeing and sensing and feeling and breathing the infinite, succumbing to its overwhelming beauty and complexity. This spiral cannot be fully appreciated from a logical/reason-based perspective. First, because of the inherent paradox of logic and second because logic itself is system and part of the spiral (sort of)... um, i suppose i don't really know how to say it better than that. Anyway, i highly recommend contemplating this (meditate, stare at the leaves and branches of a plant, look at yourself in the mirror, peer across a horizon dotted with cities and highways, oh and listen to music). A lot of you probably know exactly what I'm talking about (its probably why you listen to Tool).
Anyway, as for the song overall, i think its a philosophical journey. As others have said on this forum, the black and white is the beginning. 'Seeing in black and white'; things are true or they are not, they are good or they are evil, etc... the introduction of other colors is coming to realize (simply put) that you always held for true might not be; the creating of your own ideas now and a general open-mindedness.... shit i have to go... ill finish later if requested...
...Wow man. I never really thought of it like that. So it could also be talking about how the universe is coalescing in and out (above and below) infinitely then.
"As below so above and beyond"
I'm pretty sure this is an altered version of the somewhat uncommon phrase "As above so below" first written by ancient mystic/alchemist Hermes Trismegistus (whom i know little about only from a google search). Why the alteration? I don't know, but i think the original has somewhat (perhaps) christian connotations, dealing especially with man's actions on earth and god's in heaven. The swap perhaps was meant to rid the line of those connotations and deal more directly with the essence of the phrase...
which is why the line stuck out to me in the first place. It is the nature of all things. Every system (i.e. every object) in the universe is composed of sub-systems, and those of sub-sub-systems, and those of sub-sub-sub-systems, etc. on into infinity. Similarly, every system interacts with other systems to make a super system, which interacts with other super-systems to make super-super-systems, etc. For example, humans are made up of organs that are made of cells that are made of molecules that are made up of atoms... etc. Conversely, humans interact to form small communities that form societies that form nations that form cultures that form the global community, etc... Everything goes infinitly down and infinitly up. The microcosm is the same in nature as the macrocosm. This is the spiral. A spiral within a spiral within a spiral within a spiral...
Of course, this song is not a discussion about this, certainly not from the logical breakdown i just gave. It doesn't seem to be conceptualizing it, but rather seeing and sensing and feeling and breathing the infinite, succumbing to its overwhelming beauty and complexity. This spiral cannot be fully appreciated from a logical/reason-based perspective. First, because of the inherent paradox of logic and second because logic itself is system and part of the spiral (sort of)... um, i suppose i don't really know how to say it better than that. Anyway, i highly recommend contemplating this (meditate, stare at the leaves and branches of a plant, look at yourself in the mirror, peer across a horizon dotted with cities and highways, oh and listen to music). A lot of you probably know exactly what I'm talking about (its probably why you listen to Tool).
Anyway, as for the song overall, i think its a philosophical journey. As others have said on this forum, the black and white is the beginning. 'Seeing in black and white'; things are true or they are not, they are good or they are evil, etc... the introduction of other colors is coming to realize (simply put) that you always held for true might not be; the creating of your own ideas now and a general open-mindedness.... shit i have to go... ill finish later if requested...
That's EXACTLY what it is. Very well said !
We can only understand the subsystems below us, but if the trail is a spiral then what's above us most be similar to our relation with everything below. And that must be what makes consciousness and especially self-consciousness so magnificent. The realization that we are some step on that infinite cosmological spiral.
edit : this realization is also the first step to accept alien existence as a mere logical conclusion. Not that I believe "they" are here among us, I leave that in the middle, but something higher must be present somewhere. We cannot be the end station. I consider it very likely that some entities are looking down on us, litteraly, like we are looking at ants for instance.
Last edited by ZeroPointEther; 05-14-2005 at 01:27 AM..
This phrase comes from the beginning of The Emerald Tablet and embraces the entire system of traditional and modern magic which was inscribed upon the tablet in cryptic wording by Hermes Trismegistus. The significance of this phrase is that it is believed to hold the key to all mysteries. All systems of magic are claimed to function by this formula. "'That which is above is the same as that which is below'...Macrocosmos is the same as microcosmos. The universe is the same as God, God is the same as man, man is the same as the cell, the cell is the same as the atom, the atom is the same as...and so on, ad infinitum."
This message theorizes that man is the counterpart of God on earth; as God is man's counterpart in heaven. Therefore, it is a statement of an ancient belief that man's actions on earth parallel the actions of God in heaven. This pivots on the belief that "all things have their birth from this One Thing by adaptation."
To the magician the magical act, that of causing a transformation in a thing or things without any physical contact, is accomplished by an imaginative act accompanied by the will that the wanted change will occur. The magical act and imaginative act becomes one and the same. The magician knows with certainty that for the change to occur he must will it to happen and firmly believe it will happen. Here it may be noted that magic and religion are akin: both require belief that a miracle will occur.
To bring about such a change the magician uses the conception of "dynamic interconnectedness to describe the physical world as the sort of thing that imagination and desire can effect. The magician's world is an independent whole, a web of which no strand is autonomous. Mind and body, galaxy and atom, sensation and stimulus, are intimately bound. Witchcraft strongly imbues the view that all things are independent and interrelated." These concepts pivot on the belief that all things come from the One Thing, or First Cause, and "Its power is integrating, if it be turned into earth."
The purpose of all rituals in ceremonial magic is to unite the microcosm with the macrocosm to join God, or gods when invoked, with the human consciousness. When such a supreme union is achieved the subject and object becomes one. This is because the magician feels that he is consciously in touch with all elements of the universe, therefore, he can control them. It may be said, the magician feels connected with the universe. This feeling intensifies the more the magician successfully practices his skills. Whenever he experiences a failure he knows that the ritual was not performed correctly.
When feeling unison with the universe the magician knows he has reached his Higher or True Self because he has attained mastery of himself and the universe. Thus he feels his "skillful work ascends from earth to heaven and descends to earth again, and receives the power of the superiors and of the inferiors." Therefore, he "hast the glory of the whole worldtherefore let all obscurity flee from thee." Now the miracles are possible.
Some magicians, including Aleister Crowley, claimed that when the magician reaches this ultimate peak of altered consciousness the miracles are no longer important, the extreme goal becomes the direct union with God.
The above definition goes along a lot with Quibbles post. Sorry for the redundancy.
We can only understand the subsystems below us, but if the trail is a spiral then what's above us most be similar to our relation with everything below. And that must be what makes consciousness and especially self-consciousness so magnificent. The realization that we are some step on that infinite cosmological spiral.
edit : this realization is also the first step to accept alien existence as a mere logical conclusion. Not that I believe "they" are here among us, I leave that in the middle, but something higher must be present somewhere. We cannot be the end station. I consider it very likely that some entities are looking down on us, litteraly, like we are looking at ants for instance.
Look up the legend of the annunaki as interpreted through ancient sumerian texts, very interesting
__________________ "The very existence of flame-throwers proves that some time, somewhere, someone said to themselves, You know, I want to set those people over there on fire, but I'm just not close enough to get the job done."
