Regarding Jesus, Eulogy, and Judith

[simon the magician]

To be honest, I am posting this as a message for those who would dismiss Maynard's music because it appears on the surface to be "anti-Jesus".....

I don't know maynard from a hole in the wall, but judging from his lyrics, he (whether he knows it or not) holds points of view very similar with Gnostic philosophies. It would seem to me, however, that Maynard (obviously an educated man) is aware of the two, starkly different "Jesus" known to this world: the Jesus of "Christianity" and the Jesus of Gnosticism. I think that "Eulogy" is about those who follow the "Christian", manufactured-for-political-agenda understanding of Christ (as spawned by Peter and manipulated by Constantine) , one that is spoon-fed by those "above the ground", and how quickly these christians can dismiss their "saviour" when they don't get what they want.

What makes "Judith" such a great song is that it can be taken from the viewpoint of an aethist, and of a Gnostic follower of Christ, with the lyrics aimed at the aforementioned type "god-fearing" Christian who just swallows up someone else's view of a God of jealousy and vengeance who imposes pain and guilt on his creations.

I'm trying not to make this a rant against conventional Christianity, but I'll close by saying this (regardless of whether Maynard or the members of Tool would agree or not):
There are two sides to every story, and you can't claim to hold a well-grounded opinion on the story unless you've seen both sides. As one who used to be, in all senses of the term, a "fundamental" Christian, until finding that the OTHER side of the story teaches of a Christ who is more in line with Buddhist and in some cases, POLYtheistic teachings, I can look at a song like "Eulogy" and see my former self as one of the crowd, disappointed and ready for the next L Ron Hubbard to tell me what the "truth" is, having COMPLETELY missed the point that this "martyr's" teachings, and I can look at "Judith" and see my former self as the inspiration for what Maynard would "never, ever choose to be".

Not to put Maynard on a pedestal or anything......but this world could use more thinkers and more speakers like him.

[JudRoach]

Tool does seem to use a lot of references to crucifixion, martyrdom, Jesus and so forth. I think because a lot of what is written about Jesus is applicable to any persons spiritual path and I think a lot of what Tool is centered around is spirituality. Maynard almost seems to have a fixation for it.

Regardless of what the words of the song directly refer to, I think there is an underlying hatred for one individual...

It can be interpreted as him having contempt for people who get on soap boxes and tell everyone what to think. How smitten fickle follies wear expensive clothes and flashy jewelry and we're somehow trapped into believing they can lead us to salvation because mom, dad and society says so. A struggle for belief and connection without the watered-down traditions and money churches....etc.,etc.

BUT I THINK HE'S REFERRING TO SOMETHING MORE PERSONAL. Let me finish by saying I am a complete moron. So, now that you know I'm an idiot, why are you still reading this?

Stop demon transmission. Quit touchin me!

Peace an' chicken grease fellas... Save lotion, use olive oil, I'll be here all week...

[apparatus]

I agree with simon the magician. Maynard is definitely not against the teachings of Jesus or the concept of God; he even said in interview that "Judith" isn't about god as such, but about a certain image of god. and I agree that it's probably about the most conventional, fundamentalist view.

however, "christianity" is quite a broad concept, there are about 10 000 christian denominations that often have radically different views on the most fundamental parts of faith and religion. there are gnostic christians, christian mysticists, quakers etc.

anyway, Maynard might be addressing someone specific with these lyrics, the bottom line is that it's not Jesus.

[AllforUnity]

THANK YOU people...finally, people agree with me that Maynard, and TOOL, is NOT against Christianity, or Jesus...Maynard is not an athiest...*sigh* wonderful.

[Maninthebox357]

I don't believe he is either. But he does seem to badmouth christ if you dont look deeper into his songs other than just touching the surface. BTW, im dave howdy!

[Cylith]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but not only is Maynard not against Christ, but in fact, he teaches many of the same things Christ did. This seems especially true on Lateralus. (Example: The Grudge seems to be teaching forgiveness.) Just about every Tool song seems to have a positive message (though sometimes it's just depending on how you look at it).

[Pyrophoric_yeti]

Dont know this for certain but im told that he is talking about kurt cobain (nervana - if you didnt know this anyway feel free to hurt yourself). But id like to concur with those that think that tool is not a satanical antichrist band from the depths of hell.

Howdy dave, i think that yes if you only look at the surface of the songs he could be talking about damn well anything especialy as the music often misleads from the mood of the lyrics.

BTW dave im pyrophoric. If your realy curious ask me what it means and ill rant.

[Feignt]

All great thoughts, but I don't think he's talking about a particular person. I've heard a lot of different ideas, that all fit, but the lines "swallowed your facade cause I'm eager to identify with someone above the ground" puts him in the first person, suggesting that he too is at fault for once believing in someone in particular who he now believes is wrong. While it could be Jesus( who he may have once believed in, or Cobain for that matter) I'm swayed to think that it's just another way of saying "think for yourself", meaning his attempt to make it first person actually is a collective voice. We all do this, and his voice speaks for all of us. I think it's about our eagerness to believe in someone else because we haven't yet found the strength to believe in ourselves. The death of one martyr just leaves space to put up another.When do we stop looking out and start looking in? It could be about our own ego and pride. The part of us that doesn't accept what others think or say, just points fingers.The part of us that thinks we're bigger than we are, yet silently believes it's not. The part that eventually has to die in order to grow. I don't know, just some thoughts...

[Muzaki]

Ok

I dont want to call you a dumbass or anything. But maynard has #1 stated this song is not about jesus. I believe Danny said it also.

#2 Judith is about his mothers undying belief in her religion even though she was dying from cancer.

you have points but they barely relate to what you want them to.

[Stalkz]

Dont know this for certain but im told that he is talking about kurt cobain (nervana - if you didnt know this anyway feel free to hurt yourself). But id like to concur with those that think that tool is not a satanical antichrist band from the depths of hell..


Satanical isn't a word, you just made that up, ass.

Anyways, if Maynard does believe in God then he believes The Universal Mind is God.

If you dont know.... look it up. He references it constantly on (but not restricted to) Lateralus, infact he even SAYS "We are one mind" in Reflection, and in Third Eye there's the sample, "Today a young man on acid realized that all matter is mearly energy condenced into a slow vibration, that we are all one consciousness
[expearencing itself subjectively], there is no such thing death, life is
only a dream, and we are just an imagination of ourselves. Here's Tom with
the weather", and that also plays into the astral projection thread in the Lateralus forum, which plays BACK into the Universal Mind/Universal Brain/Unconscious Collective, which could be called God, which means that we are all God, we're all the same mind.

This body, this body holding me. Be my reminder here that I am not alone.
-As in we're not alone because we are all one. There's no seperation because we're the same and after this physical body is done we will be the same again. Together, collectively as one.

[AllforUnity]

That's pretty interesting. l'd also like to add that the name of the band Kirt Cobain was in is Nivana, not nervana. Anywho...l believe Mayanrd believes in God, Jesus...other historic Biblical figures...l just don't think Maynard follows God 100%. Mayanrd has a religion...l've forgotten what it was, but he prays to a statue...therefore, he's gotta believe in some type of God. lt might not be the almight GOD...but he's religious enough to not be satanic.

[endorphins]

EULOGY IS ABOUT BILL HICKS!!!!!!!

[Stalkz]

That's pretty interesting. l'd also like to add that the name of the band Kirt Cobain was in is Nivana, not nervana. Anywho...l believe Mayanrd believes in God, Jesus...other historic Biblical figures...l just don't think Maynard follows God 100%. Mayanrd has a religion...l've forgotten what it was, but he prays to a statue...therefore, he's gotta believe in some type of God. lt might not be the almight GOD...but he's religious enough to not be satanic.



I'm guessing you don't know anything about Satanism.

[Metamorphosis]

I disagree with all of you people except Stalkz, other than Stalkz i think its safe to say you are ALL WRONG! I am in 100% doubt that any member of Tool would be religious(religious meaning belief in "God" and "Holy" Rituals' and "Preyer" etc - basically all the bullshit). I think that Maynard is a spiritualist, not religious - there is a difference. I also think that the song Judith is arguing the fact the any religious god (take the christian god for example) is absolute bullshit and made up, hence "Fuck your God" -I emphasise the "Your".

And who can say Eulogy is about Bill Hicks??? I dont think Bill Hicks was crusified! I recall Eulogy being 'dedicated' to Bill Hicks, this does not mean its ABOUT him. i have an idea that the song is Maynard's Future Eulogy and a relation made between his and Jesus' eulogy, of course its probably wrong.

Im disgusted to hear you people say Maynard is religious, i would never believe it till the day i heard it from Maynard himself.

[TheDisturbed1]

To be honest, I am posting this as a message for those who would dismiss Maynard's music because it appears on the surface to be "anti-Jesus".....

I don't know maynard from a hole in the wall, but judging from his lyrics, he (whether he knows it or not) holds points of view very similar with Gnostic philosophies. It would seem to me, however, that Maynard (obviously an educated man) is aware of the two, starkly different "Jesus" known to this world: the Jesus of "Christianity" and the Jesus of Gnosticism. I think that "Eulogy" is about those who follow the "Christian", manufactured-for-political-agenda understanding of Christ (as spawned by Peter and manipulated by Constantine) , one that is spoon-fed by those "above the ground", and how quickly these christians can dismiss their "saviour" when they don't get what they want.

What makes "Judith" such a great song is that it can be taken from the viewpoint of an aethist, and of a Gnostic follower of Christ, with the lyrics aimed at the aforementioned type "god-fearing" Christian who just swallows up someone else's view of a God of jealousy and vengeance who imposes pain and guilt on his creations.

I'm trying not to make this a rant against conventional Christianity, but I'll close by saying this (regardless of whether Maynard or the members of Tool would agree or not):
There are two sides to every story, and you can't claim to hold a well-grounded opinion on the story unless you've seen both sides. As one who used to be, in all senses of the term, a "fundamental" Christian, until finding that the OTHER side of the story teaches of a Christ who is more in line with Buddhist and in some cases, POLYtheistic teachings, I can look at a song like "Eulogy" and see my former self as one of the crowd, disappointed and ready for the next L Ron Hubbard to tell me what the "truth" is, having COMPLETELY missed the point that this "martyr's" teachings, and I can look at "Judith" and see my former self as the inspiration for what Maynard would "never, ever choose to be".

Not to put Maynard on a pedestal or anything......but this world could use more thinkers and more speakers like him.

well said!

[AllforUnity]

Meh. People will believe what they want to believe. You seem to be into the whole Satanism thing, so maybe you want to believe Maynard and TOOL is satanic, because then you'd like them better. Just like l don't believe in the whole Satanism thing, so l wouldn't want to have the thought that my favorite band is satanic. People believe what they will, neither you, or l, or anyone else, is going to change eachothers mind.

[psycocylocibin]

Meh. People will believe what they want to believe. You seem to be into the whole Satanism thing, so maybe you want to believe Maynard and TOOL is satanic, because then you'd like them better. Just like l don't believe in the whole Satanism thing, so l wouldn't want to have the thought that my favorite band is satanic. People believe what they will, neither you, or l, or anyone else, is going to change eachothers mind.




Well put.

[AllforUnity]

Thank you.

[Kapoo]

however, "christianity" is quite a broad concept, there are about 10 000 christian denominations that often have radically different views on the most fundamental parts of faith and religion..

Who cares? they are all the same anyway. They all act the same and say that they are different. They SuX0r.

[benpink]

have any of you guys checked out Maynard's commentary on the Judith video on Amotion? It goes along with a lot being said here.

[Triangular_Vision]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but not only is Maynard not against Christ, but in fact, he teaches many of the same things Christ did. This seems especially true on Lateralus. (Example: The Grudge seems to be teaching forgiveness.) Just about every Tool song seems to have a positive message (though sometimes it's just depending on how you look at it).


exactly, i have come to notice that many religions teach the same basic principals as well. Religion has become a "tool" to control people rather than to liberate them. They are forced into thinking that if they dont live a very specific way and donate relentlessly to their church that they will be damned to hell reguardless of what they think and feel in their personal life. Such as experimentation with drugs would be looked down upon and called a sin. I would still curse the divine consciouseness (God) to this day if it wasn't for mushrooms.

My mom works for a church and i've always felt a bit of discomfort walkiing into it to talk to her because all of her co-workers know me and that i do not follow any religion at all. Ive always felt like they were kind of staring me down... But as time has progessed and they have learned more about me and ive learned more about them,. they've come to accept my point of view and even encouraged it. As i expose ideas to them, instead of saying NO this is what the bible says, they go heeeeeeey, ive read a passage about that, and it correlates in this way. many people forget that the bible is an encoded (language) version of visions passed on through word of mouth... as if its going to contain any specifics? You could lookj at it like a song from a singer much like maynard with all those beautiful metaphors. Or maybe like a flashlight with a blue light bulb shining on a white sheet in the dark. Oh whats there is there, but its not exactly there how its there.

Following religion is not bad, but thinking it is the only way to transcend this awareness is terrible, it leaves "you broken down and paralyzed."

[Triangular_Vision]

Meh. People will believe what they want to believe. You seem to be into the whole Satanism thing, so maybe you want to believe Maynard and TOOL is satanic, because then you'd like them better. Just like l don't believe in the whole Satanism thing, so l wouldn't want to have the thought that my favorite band is satanic. People believe what they will, neither you, or l, or anyone else, is going to change eachothers mind.

maybe we must change our own mind. Ive often look at life as a thought filter. All these people coming and going with their own stories, and own experiences all so forgien but so wonderfully familiar. Maybe your best friend and enemy are only you telling yourself another side of the never ending story so that you may have a "well grounded opinion" so that you may "move to heal and both move on together"

[schismreflection]

I think the people who view Tool and or Maynard in general as atheist or satanistic are those people who really dont get the message he's trying to teach... There all close minded simpletons who think just because Tool is unique from all those other bands out there today and have there own unique sound that they must be in deep in some cult or something. Fuck em all and don't lower Tool to that... oNLY THE TRUE FANS WILL GET IT..

[paraflux]

Teaching people to teach themselves is so hard...

[solomonarul]

I think the people who view Tool and or Maynard in general as atheist or satanistic are those people who really dont get the message he's trying to teach... There all close minded simpletons who think just because Tool is unique from all those other bands out there today and have there own unique sound that they must be in deep in some cult or something. Fuck em all and don't lower Tool to that... oNLY THE TRUE FANS WILL GET IT..

yeah...but this "only the true fans get it " is disturbing...what defines a true Tool fan?

this sounds like "only the mormons go to Heaven"...or stuff like that.

[bluefire]

When you look at the lyrics to Eulogy, there really isn't anything that would lead you to think the song is acually about jesus, except for the reference "to get off your fucking cross". The cross is a pretty common cliche for anyone who takes themselves way too seriously. Im pretty sure we can completely rule out Bill Hicks as the subject of the song, seeing as it makes absolutely no sense.

As for Tool being athiest or not, im pretty sure theyve said that they dont worship any particular god, however they are still very spiritual people.

[Karl Haffner]

Maynard found Jesus through the writings of the Prophetess Ellen White: spam removed
Being an adventist, I noticed quite a few references to her writings in Lateralus, which surprised me quite a bit. Maynard is drawn to eshcatology and that is the primary focus of all of Ellen Whites visions. This may seem non-legit, but time will tell. The adventist community is very connected though and we became aware of his conversion quite quickly after it took place.
See here for church beliefs: god damn spam is good with cheese
notice number 11... and the song Jimmy "Eleven is standing still, waiting for me to free him by coming home. Moving me with a sound. Opening me within a gesture. Drawing me down and in, showing me where it all began, Eleven. It took so long to realize that you hold the light that's been leading me back home."

[bluefire]

Maynard found Jesus through the writings of the Prophetess Ellen White: spam removed
Being an adventist, I noticed quite a few references to her writings in Lateralus, which surprised me quite a bit. Maynard is drawn to eshcatology and that is the primary focus of all of Ellen Whites visions. This may seem non-legit, but time will tell. The adventist community is very connected though and we became aware of his conversion quite quickly after it took place.
See here for church beliefs: god damn spam is good with cheese
notice number 11... and the song Jimmy "Eleven is standing still, waiting for me to free him by coming home. Moving me with a sound. Opening me within a gesture. Drawing me down and in, showing me where it all began, Eleven. It took so long to realize that you hold the light that's been leading me back home."

I hope your not basing "Maynard finding Jesus" on the e-mail he sent the Toolshed on APRIL 1ST (which in case you live in a cave is APRIL FOOL'S DAY)

[Echoghost]

yeah...but this "only the true fans get it " is disturbing...what defines a true Tool fan?

this sounds like "only the mormons go to Heaven"...or stuff like that.

wait, so it isn't going to be just me or my fellow mormons when I get up there? :P

back on the song. If Maynard says that this song isn't about Jesus, it could be about a whole lot of different people or different types of people. It could be about people who think they are being "martyred" (in the sense that they are going to be attacked in some way or another) for some cause when they just sound like idiots.

It could be about something else, too.


OH AND YA MAN ONLY THA TRU FANZ GET IT LOL

[UtUmNo1]

Satanical isn't a word, you just made that up, ass.



From dictionary.com:

sa·tan·ic ( P ) (s-tnk, s-) or sa·tan·i·cal (--kl)
adj.
Relating to or suggestive of Satan or evil.
Profoundly cruel or evil; fiendish.

Use it.

Eulogy is about ummm...

Jim Morrison

[shamanstrance]

From dictionary.com:

sa·tan·ic ( P ) (s-tnk, s-) or sa·tan·i·cal (--kl)
adj.
Relating to or suggestive of Satan or evil.
Profoundly cruel or evil; fiendish.

Use it.

Eulogy is about ummm...

Jim Morrison

agreed
"would you die for me"

[eon_yellow_apocalypse]

I think the people who view Tool and or Maynard in general as atheist or satanistic are those people who really dont get the message he's trying to teach... There all close minded simpletons who think just because Tool is unique from all those other bands out there today and have there own unique sound that they must be in deep in some cult or something. Fuck em all and don't lower Tool to that... oNLY THE TRUE FANS WILL GET IT..

an atheist is some1 hu dusnt believe in God...
it seems the "god" maynard believes in isnt the Christian God.. but he believes that "we r all 1 consciousness viewing itself subjectively"....if u think of taht as God, maynard isnt an atheist...if u think that cant b considered a god, maynard is an atheist..
n hu the hell thinks maynard is satanic? maynard is DEFINITELY not satanic...

n even if maynard or Tool WAS an atheist, that wouldnt mean he belonged 2 some kinda cult...

n being atheists dusnt lower a band....atheists r smart enugh 2 think 4 themselves n question authority

[eon_yellow_apocalypse]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but not only is Maynard not against Christ, but in fact, he teaches many of the same things Christ did. This seems especially true on Lateralus. (Example: The Grudge seems to be teaching forgiveness.) Just about every Tool song seems to have a positive message (though sometimes it's just depending on how you look at it).

Maynard is against all beliefs as a whole,as he once sed....
n forgiveness is sumthing that not only Christ did...but a lot of ppl n beliefs....
Tool may "teach" stuff like forgiveness, but it dusnt "teach" stuff like "There is an all powerfull God, pray 2 Him"...
or do they?

[martyr]

maynard isnt against any beliefs. just because he desnt actively practice any doesnt mean he dislikes them.
if he was against every belief wouldnt he probably fall out with danny and his beliefs?
i beleive he once had beliefs but became disillusioned and found HIS truth.
he just wants us to look at the big picture

[pathological2]

"EULOGY" IS ABOUT MAYNARD!!!!!!!!! (I HAVE DIED, I WILL DIE, IT'S ALRIGHT.......). And I think that Maynard's lyrics deal way more with satan than any god. But before you jump all over me, listen to my point of view. What I mean is that I think alot of Tool songs deal with inner-fights one has with the devil/snake inside or the destructive part of ourselves (Intolerance, Sober, Bottom, Undertow, Eulogy, H., Pushit to name a few). But the positive nature of the songs is almost like motivation to beat this monster. So it's not satanic, but more to find the god inside to beat the devil inside (to square-off and win!). Although many songs deal with losing the fight, a smaller minority of songs deal with winning (Parabola and Lateralus to name a few).

[Life feeds on life]

This song, to me, is coming from the point of view of a once follower of a so called martyr. In the beginning with the lines" He had a lot to say, he had a lot nothing to say, We'll miss him", he's saying how this martyr was a man with great words, but now realizes how much of a fool he was.
Also with lines like:
"Standing above the crowd,
He had a voice so strong and loud and I
Swallowed his façade 'cause I'm so
Eager to identify with
Someone above the ground,
Someone who seemed to feel the same,
Someone prepared to lead the way, with
Someone who would die for me

Will you? Will you now?
Would you die for me?
Don't you fucking lie "

The follower explains how he was looking for someone to lead him, to guide him, how he wanted someone to look up to, someone who would die for what he believed. But then he realizes that this martyr, at the face of death, refuses to die out of fear, which turns the follower's hopes upside down.
Then it ends with:
"Come down
Get off your fucking cross
We need the fucking space to nail the next fool martyr

To ascend you must die
You must be crucified
For our sins and our lies
Goodbye..."

Through hatred, at the end, the followers of this martyr kill the man they looked up to.
This is just my belief on what the song means. It may vary from person to person though

[pathological2]

"Standing above the crowd, he had a voice that was strong and loud".....don't you see that it's Maynard talking about himself? I mean, come on. By the way, Maynard refers to himself as a martyr in more than this one song (APC's "The Rose" is one).

[eulogys]

"EULOGY" IS ABOUT MAYNARD!!!!!!!!! (I HAVE DIED, I WILL DIE, IT'S ALRIGHT.......).

Why would you quote a line from H. when talking about Eulogy? The two songs have nothing to do with each other.

"Standing above the crowd, he had a voice that was strong and loud".....don't you see that it's Maynard talking about himself?

Considering the entire verse of your quote-"Standing above the crowd, He had a voice that was strong and loud. We'll miss him. Ranting and pointing his finger, At everything but his heart. We'll miss him." would imply that HE, HIS, and HIM are refering to Himself(Maynard), and that he points his finger at everyone and tells them how to think and feel and does this all without looking within himself. So, NO, I don't see how it's Maynard talking about himself.

[pathological2]

I quoted a line from "H." cause all Tool songs are related. And most are introspective (admittingly by Maynard). "Pointing his finger at everything but his heart, we'll miss him". "We'll miss him" is the enemy being sarcastic. Are you familiar with the APC song "Blue"? Cause it's kind of the same thing. "pointing his finger at everything but his heart" is comparable to "best to keep things in the shallow end cause I never quite learned how to swim". They're both negative revelations for the enemy. Not necesarily the truth, but shown as the truth here. We (OUR SELF) are not gonna miss him, that's why we're reading him his eulogy. All inside brother.

[ArizonaBay]

EULOGY IS ABOUT BILL HICKS!!!!!!!

Well done this annoys me too. "running and pointing his finger" "told us how you werent arfaid to die"(see quote at start of third eye) If this was about Jesus why does Maynard sing "Not all martyrs see divinity?" See it makes no sense when you think it through ... lol 'tis bout Hicks CASE CLOSED