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Systolic
12-03-2002, 03:10 PM
Okay folks, here's the scoop on this song:
Its the anger song of the album. They have at least one on every album, as stated in the topic. Don't believe me? Then let me list them-

Opiate - Jerk Off
Undertow - Swamp Song
AEnima - Hooker with a Penis AND AEnema
Lateralus - Ticks and Leeches

They all have similar undertones and everything.. They all are saying that some person or group of people or city or something should drown/die/leave him alone.

I like the song. Its not my favorite by any means, and I think that musically, it is the most shallow on Lateralus (If you can even call any song that Tool has made shallow.) I love the chorus, I love the song, but its not the best, and its also their "vent" song. Don't criticize them for putting on the album though. They probably had some reason that we don't know about for putting on there, and I respect them for doing as they please, regardless of what fans my think.

Kudos Tool.

HoGdOgGeR
12-04-2002, 07:58 AM
i think crawl away could also be considered an anger song because maynard says, "i can see your back is turning, if i could i'd stick a knife in." that seems to be pretty angry. overall though, undertow does a very aggressive tone to it. just an observation.

Systolic
12-06-2002, 12:55 PM
I was referring to songs that are out against a group. Tool has several, as I said before. It seems like Crawl Away was about an ex or something like that... I mean think about it... You can't stick a knife in more than one person's back at the same time. =P

HoGdOgGeR
12-09-2002, 10:54 AM
"this bog is thick and easy to get lost in because YOU'RE a dumbass belligerent fucker" how does that refer to a group?

drum_dood
12-19-2002, 03:13 PM
Originally posted by Systolic
Okay folks, here's the scoop on this song:
Its the anger song of the album. They have at least one on every album, as stated in the topic. Don't believe me? Then let me list them-

Opiate - Jerk Off
Undertow - Swamp Song
AEnima - Hooker with a Penis AND AEnema
Lateralus - Ticks and Leeches

They all have similar undertones and everything.. They all are saying that some person or group of people or city or something should drown/die/leave him alone.

I like the song. Its not my favorite by any means, and I think that musically, it is the most shallow on Lateralus (If you can even call any song that Tool has made shallow.) I love the chorus, I love the song, but its not the best, and its also their "vent" song. Don't criticize them for putting on the album though. They probably had some reason that we don't know about for putting on there, and I respect them for doing as they please, regardless of what fans my think.

Kudos Tool.

ok...i just felt i needed to reply to this on behalf of danny carey and the rest of tool...

first off, the poly rhythyms that danny plays are fucking excellent, well crafted....especially when he throws the double bass drum in fucking fast at the beginning while still doing the same part on the toms that he was doing in the beginning....fucking awesome. this song isn't my favorite song; personally, i like lateralis. but this song fucking kicks ass and i think they made this a pissed of song for a reason, and people take the song in different ways.

LazyE462
12-26-2002, 08:38 AM
I like a lot of the songs where Danny uses dynamics instead of chop. he has such a mastery of the instrument. But then again, i think hes been playing for like some 30 years to work on it, lol.

SonOfWillieTheP
12-29-2002, 04:49 PM
Originally posted by Systolic
musically, it is the most shallow on Lateralus (If you can even call any song that Tool has made shallow.) I love the chorus, I love the song, but its not the best, and its also their "vent" song. Don't criticize them for putting on the album though. They probably had some reason that we don't know about for putting on there, and I respect them for doing as they please, regardless of what fans my think.

Shallow???? It's easily one of their best tracks. Excellent use of dynamics going on there.

a fire inside
01-09-2003, 08:47 PM
Originally posted by Systolic
I like the song. Its not my favorite by any means, and I think that musically, it is the most shallow on Lateralus (If you can even call any song that Tool has made shallow.) I love the chorus, I love the song, but its not the best, and its also their "vent" song. Don't criticize them for putting on the album though. They probably had some reason that we don't know about for putting on there, and I respect them for doing as they please, regardless of what fans my think.


this song...shallow? do you play any insturments, or sing for that matter? this is one of the most complicated songs i have heard in awhile. there are lots of other songs on lateralus that seem "shallow" next to this i think. im not saying any tool song is easy to put together as a band, but this one is specifically hard.

Cronos
01-12-2003, 07:50 PM
Sorry, but your post kind of annoyed me. I don't like when people assume to much.

Your interpretation of the song is yours alone, and necessarily the correct one in no way at all. Therefore you have no way to speak out like that, and state all this as fact.

This song, instrumentally is very complex indeed, like that of Lateralus. It's hard to even contemplate how he could beat the HELL out of those drums like he did. It's like he has more than two arms. Great job on Adam, and Justins part as well, great riffs. The slow down part, it's just amazing. First they beat the shit out of you with drums, then lay you flat on the ground to rest, and finally pick you right back up and hurl you to the wall.

What group is THIS song about? You can never know, and there's a lot more to this song than you think, it is in no way shallow at all. You could take this as literally as you wanted, or read between the lines like with Prison Sex, and Stink Fist.

We could also instead say this is one of their most up front songs, like Prison Sex and Stink Fist if you take it in it's most literal sense. Prison Sex is about that, Stink Fist is about fisting of the anal orifice, and Ticks & Leeches is about Some Ticks & Leeches, an individual or individuals.

If you even care to look hard enough you can find more than just the songs you listed and find more anger songs, songs against a group.

This is a band, and they write what they feel, what causes them displeasure, something that creates raw emotion, and can be transferred into something powerful.

Anger is an emotion, they aren't just going to say, "Hey haven't we used anger enough as a band in all our previous cd's?" When they do it, they don't do it wrong like SlipKnot.

Also Opiate as a whole was an anger cd you dolt. Opiate is against followers, Hush was against people who tell you how to write your material, the media, the censorship, and Cold and Ugly too is an anger song.

I think you're just looking to hard to find some kind of song that they try and imitate on each cd to sell them cd's. Ticks and Leeches is by far the hardest they've done, and the drums has a more of a tribal beat than the past, "ANGER SONGS" you've so thoughtfully pointed out to us. When I'm angry, this song is perfect for me. I'm listening to it as we speak.

Systolic
01-14-2003, 05:30 AM
Look, I never said that the song was bad... I just said that I feel that its not as strong of an effort as, say, Lateralus, or DRT, or The Patient. It just seems that the song is somewhat out of place on the album... There are all of these beautiful, melancholy works of art, and then suddenly there is this rash, angry, upbeat song that kind ruins the mood for me. I like the song, but I listen to Lateralus as a whole, and that song kind of spoils the mood for me.

Oh, and by the way, I DO play guitar, I've been playing for years, I can answer ANY question about music theory, and I know what I'm talking about.. so don't judge me for having an opinion.... dolt..

Macrame
01-14-2003, 07:04 PM
Originally posted by Systolic
Oh, and by the way, I DO play guitar, I've been playing for years, I can answer ANY question about music theory, and I know what I'm talking about.. so don't judge me for having an opinion.... dolt..

WHOA! That's one hell of an ego you get there. Perhaps you didn't listen to Reflection hard enough. "So crucify the ego before it's far too late." There's only one other person that I know of to claim that they know all there is to know about music theory, and that's Yngwie Malmsteen (sp?), who, in my opinion, is one of the most arrogant shits out there. I didn't believe it from a guitarist as talented as that guy, and I'm not going to believe it from some ego over the internet, who has done nothing to show any knowledge of music theory. If, after all, you did know anything about theory ... you would know enough to compare this to other songs and decide how many complications (or lack thereof, from your point of view) are present.

On a side note, I don't think that any self-respecting guitarist would claim to know all that there is about music theory. If that's so, then why play any longer? There couldn't be a challenge to overcome, and no fun in listening to music.

One more thing ... I'm completely astonished when Maynard is screaming "Suck me dry" after the interlude. I think it's one of the most beautiful parts on the album. The only form of emotion more raw than this would be "If, when I may fade like a sigh if I stay..." in Pushit. That's my personal opinion, Pushit is also my all time favorite song.

Cronos
01-14-2003, 07:46 PM
Originally posted by Systolic
Look, I never said that the song was bad... I just said that I feel that its not as strong of an effort as, say, Lateralus, or DRT, or The Patient. It just seems that the song is somewhat out of place on the album... There are all of these beautiful, melancholy works of art, and then suddenly there is this rash, angry, upbeat song that kind ruins the mood for me. I like the song, but I listen to Lateralus as a whole, and that song kind of spoils the mood for me.

Oh, and by the way, I DO play guitar, I've been playing for years, I can answer ANY question about music theory, and I know what I'm talking about.. so don't judge me for having an opinion.... dolt..

This song is not out of place at all, if you feel it is there is another thread here where you can discuss that, I'll refer you to it now. "This song sucks" 3 Pages full of it. The starter believes also that this song doesn't fit on the album, rant there please. I think this waste of space was unneccessary if you just wanted to express the song is out of place.

So then...playing the guitar means that you know a lot about music huh? That doesn't mean jack, just look, for example at all the little poser wannabe bands out there. Who play guitar, have no talent, and just play what they're told to paly for sales. Do you think they know a lot about "music theory"? Do you think they are as musically inclined as maybe...Tool? Tool is not the band that's going to bow down for people who will complain that this song doesn't belong on their album and ruins their experience. This album isn't for you. It's for them more than anything. You don't like it, buy something from "Insert pop rock MTV band here" 's latest cd.

I'll give you another chance though, since you do know so much about what you're talking about, and not to mention you play that guitar instrument for years. The most insightful of all the instruments. Through it you gain musical knowledge, and enlightenment. Take another listen to Lateralus as a whole, and when you're done I want you to explain to me why Ticks & Leeches does fit onto this album.

Wondering
01-14-2003, 08:45 PM
Originally posted by Cronos

I'll give you another chance though, since you do know so much about what you're talking about, and not to mention you play that guitar instrument for years. The most insightful of all the instruments. Through it you gain musical knowledge, and enlightenment. Take another listen to Lateralus as a whole, and when you're done I want you to explain to me why Ticks & Leeches does fit onto this album.

Cronos,

I'd love to hear your rationale for the guitar being, "...the most insightful of all the instruments...". Do you think that this may be a tad too subjective of a topic to be talking like that? I'd be curious to know what, exactly, it means for an instrument to be "insightful". If we're RANKING instruments, as you seem to be doing, i'd be curious to know how the guitar would rank above, say, the piano, or the violin. Basically, what i'm getting at is that this is a pretty subjective area. Maybe we should be a little bit more...cautious...about statements like this. I do, however, agree that "Ticks and Leeches" definitely belongs on LATERALUS, as if it were our choice in the first place.

Cronos
01-14-2003, 09:47 PM
I was being sarcastic friend, maybe you should think before you speak next time.

Macrame
01-15-2003, 06:42 PM
The way I saw what he said was as if he was saying that the guitar isn't the instrument which gives you the best feeling for chords. That instrument would have to be the piano. If, however, you want to get the best feeling for manipulating chords ... I would advise that you take up choir. There's just something about using your body as an instrument that trains your ear much more than having the intervals already set out for you.

Systolic
01-16-2003, 06:42 AM
I really don't understand why you are taking my words and twisting them like you are... Let me clear this up for you:

I LIKE THE SONG. I LOVE TOOL. LATERALUS IS MY FAVORITE CD OF ALL TIME.

I just don't feel that Ticks and Leeches is as strong of an effort as some of the other songs on the cd. Thats MY opinion.. and thats why I made a string for it.

I never said that the song sucks, because it DOESN'T. Its a great song.. There are no "bad" Tool songs, in my opinion... Its just not the best on the cd.

Thats ALL that I was trying to say. Now please shut up and go back to your pointelss little life in which you do nothing but critcize people's opinions... People ARE entitled to their own, you know.

xSaveXmondaYx
01-16-2003, 01:25 PM
Originally posted by Systolic
Okay folks, here's the scoop on this song:
Its the anger song of the album. They have at least one on every album, as stated in the topic. Don't believe me? Then let me list them-

Opiate - Jerk Off
Undertow - Swamp Song
AEnima - Hooker with a Penis AND AEnema
Lateralus - Ticks and Leeches

They all have similar undertones and everything.. They all are saying that some person or group of people or city or something should drown/die/leave him alone.

I like the song. Its not my favorite by any means, and I think that musically, it is the most shallow on Lateralus (If you can even call any song that Tool has made shallow.) I love the chorus, I love the song, but its not the best, and its also their "vent" song. Don't criticize them for putting on the album though. They probably had some reason that we don't know about for putting on there, and I respect them for doing as they please, regardless of what fans my think.

Kudos Tool.



there is also a song on every album that is titled the same(or nearly) as the name of the album:

opiate=opiate
undertow=undertow
Ænema=Ænima
Lateralus=Lateralis


so yea there are songs on all of the albums that are angry , sad, happy, etc......... whatever , and from what i have read in magazines tool is know for their anger.....not that i believe whatever i read

Macrame
01-16-2003, 07:26 PM
Originally posted by Systolic
Thats ALL that I was trying to say. Now please shut up and go back to your pointelss little life in which you do nothing but critcize people's opinions... People ARE entitled to their own, you know.

Oh, and by this post all YOU were doing was nothing but criticizing other people's opinions. Since that's all you're doing with your pointless, little life. I, personally, did not make any attacks (that I can remember, I could be wrong) on your views of Tool. I just commented on the size of your ego. Therefore, I don't like the generalization you just made assuming that everybody who responded to your post was against you because of what you thought of a damn Tool song. I couldn't possibly care less how you value this song, or any other song for that matter. I do, however, find cyber egos incredibly funny.

By the way, if people are entitled to their own opinion then why are their lives pointless and their thoughts not deserving of being heard if their opinions conflict your own? Read your last post, and you'll see where I'm coming from.

Cronos
01-16-2003, 09:31 PM
I agree with Macrame.

You don't get it. You claim all that, and yet you say so much more. You make blind assumptions about Lateralus, and Tool in general.

It sounded as if you were accusing Tool of forcing one of these anger songs on every album to sell records.

Also, you make it sound as though you know what you're talking about, claiming all these interpretations as the true ones.

Seems to me that when you're backed up against the wall you seem to fight back with fire rather than with fact or professionalism.

You're obviously in the wrong since it seems you've already backed down, and have had nothing new to say as you've just be repeating things you've said already.

Thing is, Ticks & Leeches DOES belong on the album, and it does fit, you just haven't realized that. It takes a little musical knowledge, or maybe knowledge of composition to figure that out. The whole cd isn't just trying to be, ONE thing, beautiful melodic music. It's a concept album, and Ticks & Leeches fits into the concept of Lateralus.

PearlForum
01-22-2003, 07:42 PM
Originally posted by drum_dood


first off, the poly rhythyms that danny plays are fucking excellent, well crafted....especially when he throws the double bass drum in fucking fast at the beginning while still doing the same part on the toms that he was doing in the beginning....fucking awesome.

I can't even put into words how much i love the intro and outro on the drums on that song.

Systolic
01-23-2003, 10:06 AM
Well, if it seemed like I was trying to state it as a fact, I'm sorry... tats not at all what I intended, but its apparent that everyone took it that way..
But... if your OWN opinion isn't right to YOU, then what good does it do?

Cronos
01-23-2003, 08:19 PM
Ticks and Leeches is great, I guess you just haven't found out what makes it so good.

It's like with White Pony, I don't understand why they put Elite right after Digital Bath. I love that song, and then this loud hard, electrica metal comes on. It's a good song, but I don't understand why they put that song after Digital Bath.

It's really hard to get away with that sometimes, when you mix sounds like these artists do. I think Tool got away with it, first of all because it was a concept album, or kind of like that. Second of all, every song seems to just fit in that order, even Ticks and Leeches.

For White Pony I don't think there really is a necessary order, someone correct me if I'm wrong. But they just added new song after new song to that album. First it was the Back to School (mini-maggot) as the new first track, and then The Boy's Republic on the limited addition as the final track.

But, oh well. Parabol is a soft song, and it goes perfectly into Parabola, a hard song, that goes into Ticks and Leeches, a hard song. So that fits, I guess you just don't like the lyrics, of the song, but whatever.

Systolic
01-24-2003, 06:39 AM
Yeah White Pony is a great CD... Deftones are a great band. My favorite on that album has gotta be Passenger.. partly because of Maynard's appearance... Its good to see that Tool isn't afraid to work with other bands... Like take Rage Against the Machine.. or Tomahawk.. or Meshuggah... and many more...
I guess I was kind of out of line beofre... but I really do like the songs, and now that I think about it... it seems like every album after Opiate seems to have a song that kind of reverts back an album, so to speak.. Like Crawl Away is VERY Opiate, in my opinion, and Stinkfist sounds sounds more like something off of Undertow, and I guess Ticks and Leeches is the more primitve one on Lateralus.. but Danny does beat the hell out of the drums in the song...

Also, here's another thought...
I know that the song kills Maynard's voice... but could there possibly be another reason that he won't play it? BUT, then again... I think they played it once or twice in the last tour... who knows..

The Huntsman
01-24-2003, 12:29 PM
It does seem like a special song, one that isn't pulled out too often.

I was at the first Sacramento show when Maynard was struck by the thrown shoes, et cetera.

I was also at the second concert, where he performed Ticks & Leeches.

I took it as a special message to the crowd, or, more specifically, to the Consciences of those who had assaulted him. Literally, he "turned the other cheek" and in the same breath, gave us a rare performance as well as a direct Condemnation, hailing back to the actions of the few.

The Huntsman

abefrohmn
01-24-2003, 12:55 PM
I'd have to say pushit is fucking anger if I ever heard it. More like muderous rage.
"Remember that I love you, even as I tear your fucking throat away"

Probably wouldn't be his kerokee tune at the wedding reception 'tween Brenia and him.

Cronos
01-24-2003, 06:36 PM
Some of the songs on AEnima are actually still done with the old Bassist Justin Chancellor.

I forget the old guys name, don't care to look it up.

He was let go because he was upsetting the writing process.

This may be why Stink Fist is a little Undertowish.

He was with them through Undertow.

One of the band members quoted that the old Bassist was more interested in what's mainstream, or something.

Thrakandor
02-02-2003, 02:55 AM
Originally posted by Cronos
Sorry, but your post kind of annoyed me. I don't like when people assume to much.

Your interpretation of the song is yours alone, and necessarily the correct one in no way at all. Therefore you have no way to speak out like that, and state all this as fact.

... (Cut out)

Also Opiate as a whole was an anger cd you dolt. Opiate is against followers, Hush was against people who tell you how to write your material, the media, the censorship, and Cold and Ugly too is an anger song.

I'm sorry, the contradiction here just made me laugh.




Originally posted by HoGdOgGeR "this bog is thick and easy to get lost in because YOU'RE a dumbass belligerent fucker" how does that refer to a group?

Depends... might be the same thing he did with Hooker... lashing out at one (The boy in Van 501s etc etc) as a typical example of the judgemental conformist tosser. "You're a dumbass belligerent fucker" could state that the subject is a part of an undesirable group - the "belligerent fuckers".




Originally posted by Macrame WHOA! That's one hell of an ego you get there. Perhaps you didn't listen to Reflection hard enough. "So crucify the ego before it's far too late." There's only one other person that I know of to claim that they know all there is to know about music theory, and that's Yngwie Malmsteen (sp?), who, in my opinion, is one of the most arrogant shits out there. I didn't believe it from a guitarist as talented as that guy, and I'm not going to believe it from some ego over the internet, who has done nothing to show any knowledge of music theory. If, after all, you did know anything about theory ... you would know enough to compare this to other songs and decide how many complications (or lack thereof, from your point of view) are present.

Claiming he could answer any question? Maybe a bit presumptuous. But maybe he can answer any question he's been asked in recent time - maybe he's wrong, but maybe he gets pleasure from just the sound of the guitar, the beauty of the music, etc.

And is ego a bad thing? Ego is the sense of self. One of the things Tool seems to advocate most strongly... certainly that's what Jung was after, that (to the best of my knowledge) was a process of individuation, finding the self, and this was begun by integrating the shadow. Blind arrogance and ego are different things. Perhaps Systolic can answer any conventional question, maybe he just didn't explain himself well enough.




Originally posted by Cronos This song is not out of place at all, if you feel it is there is another thread here where you can discuss that, I'll refer you to it now. "This song sucks" 3 Pages full of it. The starter believes also that this song doesn't fit on the album, rant there please. I think this waste of space was unneccessary if you just wanted to express the song is out of place.

Also funny... Cronos... he IS the starter of the thread, that's why he is ranting on it - he created it for that purpose.




Originally posted by MacrameOh, and by this post all YOU were doing was nothing but criticizing other people's opinions. Since that's all you're doing with your pointless, little life. I, personally, did not make any attacks (that I can remember, I could be wrong) on your views of Tool. I just commented on the size of your ego. Therefore, I don't like the generalization you just made assuming that everybody who responded to your post was against you because of what you thought of a damn Tool song. I couldn't possibly care less how you value this song, or any other song for that matter. I do, however, find cyber egos incredibly funny.

By the way, if people are entitled to their own opinion then why are their lives pointless and their thoughts not deserving of being heard if their opinions conflict your own? Read your last post, and you'll see where I'm coming from.

You do have somewhat of a point, but there was a lot of overly violent hatred coming out of this thread... it surprised me, given the subject matter, so I'm not surprised he got a little defensive.

I could see what he was trying to say... but there was a hell of a witch-hunt after him about it... how can someone's opinion of something (especially not directly linked to you, but a to common ground that everyone treads differently) threaten you so much?

Everyone bitches about Christian dogma and religion... but I see the same thing here. People hold certain things so dear that they become sacred, and whenever this world view is threatened, they react with strong emotion... bordering on hatred... I think that's what Tool was referring to... once you get set, once you depend on something, it cripples you... "Believe in nothing" and all that.

A lot of you still seem to care too much as to what other people think... the responses on this board are really vehement in places, I can't help but feel that some of you are threatened by what other people say sometimes...

Anger is the child of fear.

I'm going to come across as a self-righteous and pretentious tosser in all likelihood, but that's life I suppose.

Cronos
02-02-2003, 11:04 AM
Originally posted by Thrakandor
I'm sorry, the contradiction here just made me laugh.

Also funny... Cronos... he IS the starter of the thread, that's why he is ranting on it - he created it for that purpose.



I was trying to find a reason for why you should try and come off like the peace maker, or more enlightened than the rest of us, but I just couldn't. Just because Tool says Believe in nothing doesn't mean you should throw out everything. Point of fact, we know that Opiate is their most aggressive, angry EP. The starter has some belief that Tool seems to throw on angry cd's just to sell. That's a rather bold statement. The whole point of this boards is for opinions. We are allowed to discuss and dispute them are we not?

The reason I bring up Opiate is to show that Tool just doesn't have one song full of anger and hatred on every cd just to sell, and as proof brought up Opiate the most angry of Tool's material. Not one song was at all comparable to Third Eye, H, or something in the sense of Jung.

This thread is a lot like the This Thread Sucks, thread. Because, they believe that Ticks and Leeches also ruins the flow of the cd as a whole, if he had wanted his opinion to be heard he could have very well added to that ongoing discussion rather than clutter the boards.

Let's not start following the Tool Bible by the book ok? Tool did say believe in nothing, but I think they'd want you to believe that our President is really George Bush. You can't prove that wrong at all.

You come off as very arrogant, you need to work on that. I'm glad I made you laugh, now why don't you actually bring up something of interest or back out of the discussion which has died awhile ago. You're a little late, the fire has died out, and as you can see, most everything was resolved. That is the whole point to discussion, and debate. Eventually there is always a resolve. We've come to one I believe. Otherwise this thread would have still been going on for a good while.

And because we've resolved this I don't think Systolic really needs your help for his defense. He's admitted maybe he was a little out of line. I was only trying to make the point that Tool doesn't just place songs on their records to make them sell, giving reasons why it might sound like a previous record or what not. Paul, the previous bassist, playing a little on AEnima, might have brought a little sound of Undertow to it. Ticks & Leeches sounds a lot more primitive, which fits into the Lateralus scheme. It's hard, and aggressive, but the drum beats are to tribal and primitive to make this fit in any other Tool album. The Grudge has some amazing drums too.

The Grudge and Ticks & Leeches both tap into that primal instinct. It's a very Pink Floydish cd. While AEnima sounds more of Led Zeppelinish. People are free to opinions, but there are such things as wrong opinions. If it's your opinion that Lateralus is a very pop like sound, and reminds you of something from Limp Bizkit, then I'd have to say that's a wrong opinion.

Thrakandor
02-02-2003, 05:12 PM
Hmmm, you're right about the dates, sorry - I never even thought of checking those.

I think this whole thread has twisted beyond the original point, and I seem to have muddled things further. At risk of further worsening it, I'm going to try and clarify a couple of points that really irked me.

My ramblings about Jung were mainly related to a muse that I've been having over Forty-Six & 2 and Reflection lately, the two ideas don't quite seem to add up, for the reasons I stated below.

[i]Originally posted by Cronos[i]Let's not start following the Tool Bible by the book ok? Tool did say believe in nothing, but I think they'd want you to believe that our President is really George Bush. You can't prove that wrong at all.

Of course I can't - I was just referring to people treating Tool like a religion, without even realising it - seeing this whole angry reaction to his post reminds me of reactions to opinions that went against the mainstream thought of Christianity. And the personal insults etc etc seemed somewhat out of character for constructive of an opinion...

So far as I can see, all he was trying to say was that Ticks and Leeches is structurally less complex than some of the other songs, but I'm hesitant to speak for him any more than I have already done so... that's just my interpretation of what he said.

If you want me to elaborate on the other points, I'll be glad to do so, if not, then we can consider it closed.

Am I arrogant? Hmm... maybe. I presume I'm right when I'm stating an opinion... but then, so do we all. If anyone has anything reasonable and intelligent to say I'll gladly listen, and if you can find a hole in my argument, then I won't deny it. Does that affect me being classified as ignorant? Don't know. Too lazy to find a dictionary right now as well. I'm sorry if you took offense at me pointing out things that I found funny, but... well... they did amuse me, so... *shrugs*

I'm sorry for any upset I've caused, it wasn't intentional... and hey, it was all my opinion :D

I'm sure there's more I could say on this, because there are so many intertwining issues...

I can elaborate if you wish, but if you want to let it die, then we'll just leave it here.

Cronos
02-02-2003, 08:57 PM
Elaborate if you please, and I'm to lazy to find holes in your arguement. Only earlier was I quick to try and find less validity in your post. That's the point of defending your position, to find holes in the other persons opinions. But, you seem to have realized things are settled. You can always elaborate. I just really think that it's Tool who decided to put Ticks & Leeches on the record for a reason. Now I have my opinions on why the song fits, but I really don't know what this song meant when it was written.

Now, the whole record seems to be about relationships. That's a big theory floating around. Ticks & Leeches, most likely fits right into that scheme. On the surface is just seems to be an out of place song that they decided to throw in because of their frustration towards the music industry after the whole 4 year court issues. But, I'd say there's more to it than that. It seems to be that part in a relationship, where you are just so fed up, so frustrated, where you just want yell, and let it all out, hope for things that you really don't want to happen, happen. "I hope you choke." Then when he's asking, "Is this what you wanted, is this what you had in mind?" Sometimes after a relationship you find yourself asking a girl this, or just thinking that to yourself about the whole thing. Even though it may or may not be what they wanted or even had in mind, well, "Cuz this is what you're getting."

Now if we want opinions, that's mine, and I rather tend to believe it. That's why I think this song does fit, and isn't just thrown on there because it soudns good, and can sell records. I figure this to be a concept album. LateralUS. It's obviously the whole lateral thinking thing, but it's about the band. But I really think this could be about relationships, and about theirs.

Since I went on, you're allowed to as well I suppose. Only reason I argued was because I believe this song is so much more. Also the original poster, just came off a little bad. Someone else thought the same, so I wasn't the only one.

Thrakandor
02-03-2003, 01:31 AM
Well, I don't actually agree with what Systolic said - I wrote my original response to this board because I couldn't see the reason for such an overwhelmingly negative response against him - I was just trying to mellow everything out.

No matter

I don't have a problem with Ticks and Leeches (If anything I would question its placement, it seems to interrupt the 'healing' stage of the album... I would have thought it would have made sense if it had been placed closer to [or even before?] The Grudge, because Grudge could be the first part of the healing process. No matter.)

For Tool songs, I don't tend to have a fixed meaning in mind for them. More of a theme that they cover, and their specific meaning to me changes over time.

For example, Lateralus has always struck me as a reaching out song... but my interpretation of that reach changes, the direction of that reach changes. Sometimes if I feel I've lost touch with myself (especially as I'm still a teenager and my hormones are somewhat whacked, thus giving my emotions some swing,) then Lateralus takes on more of a 'reconnection' feeling - learning to embrace myself again etc etc.

However, if I'm feeling okay and like something more, then it takes on more of a reaching outward feel, a feel of connection with the world. (I often get the images from the Parabola video clip in my head then, the ones at the end - with all of the individuals connected via the blue pulsing lights. (Horribly vague I know, but it's been a while since I saw the video last and my friend has my video cds at the moment.)

Forgive my ramblings. This shouldn't really be on a Ticks and Leeches thread... hmmm...

Suffice to say that my messages weren't a criticism of Ticks and Leeches, I was just making some points in the (belated, as it turns out) defense of Systolic, because he got hammered pretty badly for a relatively innocuous post.

Bygones be bygones, methinks.

Cronos
02-03-2003, 01:15 PM
It's argueable, but intense rage and fury is a part of healing, at least on a guy's part. Guy's typically, tend to turn their sadness into madness so to speak. So T & L can be a representation of that. Also the healing process would be right after T & L. If you look at the whole thing as a concept album about relationships, The Grudge would be the actualy grudge, The Patient, would be the emotions running through your head after the grudge is over, contemplating, walking away from the tedious path you've chosen and such and such, Schism is the actual separation, after the grudge is over, you finally separate, then Parabol/Parabola is just sweet talk to help you cope with the pain that results. That's just simplified, but it's the feelings, thoughts, ponderings after the split, and Ticks & Leeches seems to focus that pain into pure hatred, anger, fury, and helps reflect it outward. Then you continue onto Lateralus, and then the grand finale. That's just why I thought T & L fit in there.

It really doesn't matter what it all means because the band would rather you come to your own conclusions and use their music as an outlet for inspiration rather than tell you how you have to be inspired. But the general ideas you can get from the music in the end is generally positive, and good. Even if you think Hooker With A Penis is about selling out, or about the materialism, it doesn't matter, neither interpretations are bad.

dissemblance
02-04-2003, 08:41 PM
i also play guitar and right now im playing the patient and the grudge i just think the entire way the song is performed is incredible<what is p and h and/\ together

dissemblance
02-04-2003, 09:03 PM
Originally posted by Cronos
It's argueable, but intense rage and fury is a part of healing, at least on a guy's part. Guy's typically, tend to turn their sadness into madness so to speak. So T & L can be a representation of that. Also the healing process would be right after T & L. If you look at the whole thing as a concept album about relationships, The Grudge would be the actualy grudge, The Patient, would be the emotions running through your head after the grudge is over, contemplating, walking away from the tedious path you've chosen and such and such, Schism is the actual separation, after the grudge is over, you finally separate, then Parabol/Parabola is just sweet talk to help you cope with the pain that results. That's just simplified, but it's the feelings, thoughts, ponderings after the split, and Ticks & Leeches seems to focus that pain into pure hatred, anger, fury, and helps reflect it outward. Then you continue onto Lateralus, and then the grand finale. That's just why I thought T & L fit in there.

It really doesn't matter what it all means because the band would rather you come to your own conclusions and use their music as an outlet for inspiration rather than tell you how you have to be inspired. But the general ideas you can get from the music in the end is generally positive, and good. Even if you think Hooker With A Penis is about selling out, or about the materialism, it doesn't matter, neither interpretations are bad. that is as good an explanation as i can say i heard on this truly interesting board. finally a group i can talk to on my level,without having to dumb myslf down