defining sellout

[ohshuashua]

as a person and a musician who appreciates tool's efforts to keep control over their music and not put out what the record company wants them to, i've been doing a lot of thinking about the prase "sellout" or "selling out."

specifically what exactly does it mean to sellout or to be a sellout? is there anything wrong with wanting as many people as possible to hear your music? where is the line when one becomes a sellout?

as a musician, i want to spread my music around to anyone who would hear it. i think many musicians out there think the same, but that raises the question of sellout. what extent do you have to reach to to be considered such? is it signing on a major label? or having a three minute radio song? a video on MTV? certainly tool seems to define this as selling out, but at the same time, those are the mediums for spreading music today.

granted being in a band for girls and money is nothing short of whoring yourself out, but i also believe that there are bands out there doing what they love, even if what they love is shitty three minute radio songs. and if they strike it rich all of a sudden, why be angry at them for doing what they love, even if you don't agree with their artistic stylings? is it possible to make a decent living as a musician, and not be a sellout? can you have songs on the radio and videos on MTV, remain true to yourself, and not be viewed as a sellout?

[Pro_Art]

If a person writes music without their primary focus being money,
fame, sex, etc.; then imo, it's not considered selling out.

It's okay to try to get your band some air time where possible,
and to incorporate a variety of ways to get your band some
recognition. If it weren't for lines such as "stick your fucking
finger up your ass", I wouldn't be a Tool fan right now. Their
foul mouth and heavier music helped them to gain a lot of fans,
who in turn, carried this music to ears that otherwise wouldn't
have heard of this band. They no longer need the metal fan
base as a medium to get their lyrical messages out there,
which can be seen in Lateralus. They've lightened up, to
basically move away from the vehicle that got them to where
they are now.

Intelligent and talented artists do this all the time. I don't see
anything wrong with this, as long as long as the primary purpose
isn't one of the points I stated at the top.

Disturbed: Many people on these forums hate this band, but
if you pay attention to their lyrics, they do have a purpose.
The audience they're geared towards is one of many that
needs to be changed. Have they sold out? Their music was
the theme music for a WWF (now WWE) wrestler. Such sellout
artists as Limp Bizkit and Kid Rock also have had their music
used as WWF theme music for a wrestler.

The difference? Limp Bizkit and Kid Rock both have bullshit lyrics,
encouraging fans to be pissed off at everything and break shit,
basically feeding off their emotions to make a buck. Disturbed
on the other hand, was speaking to a (more-less) violent
audience, and was leaving lyrical messages for fans to pick up
on, encouraging them to change. They used WWF as a medium
to reach their target fan base, and they made their music
appealing to this audience. Do they have any talent? Yes.
Do they enjoy writing the music they write? Yes. Is their primary
focus on money and fame? No. Are they making a positive
impact with their lyrics? Imo, yes. So are they sellouts?
And how about Kid Rock and Bizkit, are they sellouts?



It's not about the media you choose to promote yourself, it's
about the final impact your work will have on your target fan
base. This is why you can't define a sellout band by any
individual factors. You have to predict the outcome all those
factors will have as a whole. I could easily name some good
things Limp Bizkit has done to make them appear to be caring
artists, as well as some negative things Tool has done to
make them appear to be mindless sellouts. But what is the
final outcome of all the factors involved?

Shit, this post is long. I hope you have more than a 3 minute
attention span. If you read this far, kudos.

Peace,
Pro Art (Protocol Artisan)

[lilypie]

If a person writes music without their primary focus being money,
fame, sex, etc.; then imo, it's not considered selling out.

It's okay to try to get your band some air time where possible,
and to incorporate a variety of ways to get your band some
recognition. If it weren't for lines such as "stick your fucking
finger up your ass", I wouldn't be a Tool fan right now. Their
foul mouth and heavier music helped them to gain a lot of fans,
who in turn, carried this music to ears that otherwise wouldn't
have heard of this band. They no longer need the metal fan
base as a medium to get their lyrical messages out there,
which can be seen in Lateralus. They've lightened up, to
basically move away from the vehicle that got them to where
they are now.

Intelligent and talented artists do this all the time. I don't see
anything wrong with this, as long as long as the primary purpose
isn't one of the points I stated at the top.

Disturbed: Many people on these forums hate this band, but
if you pay attention to their lyrics, they do have a purpose.
The audience they're geared towards is one of many that
needs to be changed. Have they sold out? Their music was
the theme music for a WWF (now WWE) wrestler. Such sellout
artists as Limp Bizkit and Kid Rock also have had their music
used as WWF theme music for a wrestler.

The difference? Limp Bizkit and Kid Rock both have bullshit lyrics,
encouraging fans to be pissed off at everything and break shit,
basically feeding off their emotions to make a buck. Disturbed
on the other hand, was speaking to a (more-less) violent
audience, and was leaving lyrical messages for fans to pick up
on, encouraging them to change. They used WWF as a medium
to reach their target fan base, and they made their music
appealing to this audience. Do they have any talent? Yes.
Do they enjoy writing the music they write? Yes. Is their primary
focus on money and fame? No. Are they making a positive
impact with their lyrics? Imo, yes. So are they sellouts?
And how about Kid Rock and Bizkit, are they sellouts?



It's not about the media you choose to promote yourself, it's
about the final impact your work will have on your target fan
base. This is why you can't define a sellout band by any
individual factors. You have to predict the outcome all those
factors will have as a whole. I could easily name some good
things Limp Bizkit has done to make them appear to be caring
artists, as well as some negative things Tool has done to
make them appear to be mindless sellouts. But what is the
final outcome of all the factors involved?

Shit, this post is long. I hope you have more than a 3 minute
attention span. If you read this far, kudos.

Peace,
Pro Art (Protocol Artisan)


Damn, man, wordy but very well said. Read every bit of it...hehe Very well thought out :)

[Zole]

Yes limp bizkit, kid rock, and even disturbed are sellouts.
Selling out to me is the action taken by a band to mould itself into whatever is popular, for the purpose of money and mainstream fame. Listen to 3 Dollar Bill Y'all, Down With the Sickness, and Devil Without a Cause, the bands were innocent and original. Fred Durst got a hint of hip hop fame and now he is a rapper. Disturbed was told to tone it down a bit to appeal to a broader audience, and they did. Kid Rock, well I don't think Kid Rock ever was original. My point is these bands compromised their artform to sell more cd's, something I refuse to believe Tool has ever done. Listen to these two songs: The Patient, and Part of Me.
Although these songs are 5 albums apart, they share common elements and are easily recognized as the same artform.
Tool has refused to give in to what the mainstream crowd wants. The only crime I lay on Tool is the marketing of satan. Many people think that songs like Opiate were made to target those who bout anything with satan on it at the time. My opinion lies elsewhere, but It is hard to argue that when satan sold, Tool was singing about it. As for your comment about lines like "stick your fucking finger up your ass," all I can say is this. That line came on Tool's third cd, long after they had established a fan base. Tool has never played down to gain more fans. Period.

[mud_soul]

[The only crime I lay on Tool is the marketing of satan. Many people think that songs like Opiate were made to target those who bout anything with satan on it at the time.]

TooL market satan now?
im not pointing fingers, does anyone else feel that this site is losing its quality?

but on the other hand, i guess thats what opinions are