I hope this doesn't piss Maynard off!

[JTCrace]

I have chosen to expose the true meaning of this song, what Maynard really intended. Why, you might ask? It could my own ego-trip, you know, for attention. Or it could be that I would like to let him know that some people do honestly "catch his drift." But mostly I would like the opportunity to show my appreciation for his courage and insight. And also I am sharing this in hope that others will find as much inspiration and solace as I did in the lyrics, as we all struggle healing our wounds. His words have always comforted me. They have always let me know that there was at least one other person out there experiencing a similar reality to my own. Well, here it goes...

I sincerely hope most of you reading this post have a decent background in some Freudian and Jungian psychological themes. If not, I will do my best to clarify everything.

According to Freud, here is how male development proceeds. Initially, in the first few years, the boy is extremely close to the mother. Son and mother enjoy the closest of relationships, their realities are very, very congruent. Then at some point the boy comes to the amazing discovery that he is a different sex than his mother! He penis is unveiled (cheers from the gallery)! Naturally, he wants to use it. The first candidate for penetration: mommy. The boy looks no further than his own home for his first lay. But then comes the most essential part of his development: castration by the father. The father is to step in, and say, "No, you cannot have your mother, she's mine!" The boy's dinky (yes, pun intended) masculinity then retreats into his unconscious. Hence we have the delightful stage when, "Ugh, girls are gross." Later on in the boy's development, his masculinity again becomes conscious. The feminine principle within himself is safely differentiated, he does not suffer from the infamous "Oedipus complex." . He does not go out and search for a mother surrogate (which sadly is what most guys do), but he can safely go out into the world and court women. He is a man.

Unfortunately due to the fact that there are not too many healthy marriages out there, a majority of the time the most important step does not occur, the father does not do his job. And now the boy is left to his mother. In a psychological sense, they are married. They are in love. She will begin to control every aspect of his life. He will have fantasies (sometimes very conscious fantasies) of copulating with his mother. The pair will be overly intimate, touching, kissing, hugging, cuddling. He never becomes detached from her. He is never allowed to truly develop an ego, an "I", that is separate from her. He can never become a man.

And now, the Jungian interpretation. First of all, our mother is not just our mother. She represents the Mother Archetype; that universal, eternal, Goddess that represents such qualites as security, comfort, tranquility, and unconsciousness; essentially, the womb in a symbolic sense. So a young boy's drive to have sex with his mother is really a spiritual drive. The young boy wishes to return to a state of tranquility, to a state of complete absorption. He wants to lose himself in her, to give himself up and bathe again in her rich, warm waters. And so his personal mother begins to be completely identified with the Great Mother. The boy will project this archetype (which by the way, only truly exists in his psyche) onto his mother.

According to Jung, a man experiences God and relates to God through the feminine. His soul-image is feminine, she is called his Anima. In the beginning of a boy's life, his anima is identical with the mother. And that is where we see the Oedipus Complex come in to play. The boy does not really want to physically have sex with his mother. He is merely relating to God through the only feminine being he knows: his mom. But if he is properly developed, his anima begins to differentiate from the mother. They are both feminine, but they embody different aspects of the feminine principle. This differentiation of the feminine principle is essential for a male's ego development.

In mythology, there is the symbol of the Ouroboros, the serpent which eats its own tail. It represents unconsciousness, it represents the Great Mother, the feminine motherly aspect of God. We are all familiar with the ancient mythological motif of the knight who battles the dragon to rescue the damsel in distress and then the treasure. Well, symbolically the dragon is the Great Mother, which the knight must slay to rescue his anima, his damsel in distress. This rescue is symbolic of the feminine differentiation discussed above. Then the knight may possess the treasure (enlightenment, salvation, the philosopher's stone).

[JTCrace]

And now, an interpretation of the text:

1.) "I will choke until I swallow..." What could he be choking on? The placental fluid? Maynard is fighting against his Oedipal tendencies, he his choking. And he will continue choking until he realizes the situation at hand.

2.) "Choke this infant here before me." Again, another allusion to the womb. Symbolically, he is in the womb, as an infant, and choking. In many ways he has remained an infant. Though he may have physically matured, he has not psychologically matured.

3.) "What is this but my reflection?" All these events are an inner phenomenon. The physical world is acting as a reflection. He is not dealing with his personal mother anymore. He is dealing with his psyche, his psychological reality.

4.) "Who am I to judge or strike you down?" Many times, as a male struggles with these issues he will lash out at his personal mother. He will punish her. He will yell, he will strike her down. But keep in mind, he is only projecting the Mother Archetype onto his personal mother. It is essential that he come to the realization that these thing in all truth have nothing to do with his personal mother. He must take responsibility for what has gone on within himself. He will never solve anything if he continues to blame his personal mother.

5.) "But you're pushing me and shoving me. You still love me and push it on me." He struggles with his projection. She seems to love him, but she pushes her love upon him. She pushes herself, emotionally, physically and spiritually upon him.

6.) "Rest your trigger on my finger." This is where he directly refers to the Oedipus complex. What is a woman's trigger? Her clit. He has having fantasies. He wants her. She wants him.

7.) "Bang my head upon your fault line." This one should be obvious by now. One time I explained this song to my drum instructor, who is from LA, and has visited the San Andreas fault line, he said, "Yep, it does look like a big ole vagina."

8.) "Take care not to make me enter. 'Cause if I do we both may disappear." If his Oedipal Complex is allowed full reign, his ego will vanish. His consciousness will be lost. I used to have terrifying, paralyzing dreams about this when I was a kid. With a severe Oedipal complex, a boy's masculinity does not just come into question, his entire existence comes into question.

9.) "Slipping back into that gap again." He wants an ego, he wants to be a man. But mommy is too tempting. He begins to backslide. He wants to feel her secure and comforting embrace. He wants to jump into her big, symbolic vagina, "the gap."

10.) "I'm alive when you're touching me," As much as he doesn't want it, mommy still makes him feel ecstatic, euphoric, alive.

11.) "Alive when you're shoving me down." But underneath his Oedipal desire, he knows he wants something else, something more. He knows in the end, she will only bring him down.

12.) "But I'd trade it all, for just a little, piece of mind." A wonderful play on words here. A piece of mind is an ego, a psychological reality that belongs to him, that has nothing to do with his mom. He would trade all his mom can offer him, to become a man. A deliberate disconnection.

13.) "Put me somewhere I don't wanna be. Seeing someplace I don't want to see. Never wanna see that place again." He has nearly entered the gap. This line in the song completely sums up my thoughts about the dreams I used to have. But Maynard now makes a resolution. This is the first time in the song he has behaved like a man. He makes a decision that he will stick to.

14.) "Saw that gap again today as you were begging me to stay." He is again tempted. His mother begs him to stay. We can see this literally in a mother's struggle when her son wishes to leave the home.

15.) "Managed to push myself away, and you as well." He has stuck to his resolution. He will not again fall into the gap. But when he refuses to enter, he pushes his mother away as well.

16.) "If, when I say I may fade like a sigh if I stay," He knows that if he doesn't deal with his Oedipal complex, he will never amount to anything, he will never become a man, he will simply fade away.

17.) "You minimize my movements anyway," He cannot talk his way out of this. She will only continue to seduce him. He alludes to the concept of movement here. Movement is a quality indicative of masculinity. She will coninue to damper his budding masculinity.

18.) "I must persuade you another way." The time for words is over, it is now the time for action. Here begins a symbolic battle. He must fight the dragon.

19.) "There is no love in fear." This is his battle cry. The threat of castration, the threat of losing his ego, there is no love there, that is only fear.

20.) "Staring down the hole again. Hands upon my back again" Here again is another allusion to the vagina. He feels defenseless, like he always has. He must overcome. He must cut loose the binds that tie him.

21.) "Survival is my only friend. Terrified of what may come." Anyone who has had similar experiences as the ones depicted in these lyrics will know the exquisite terror and relief and wonder when one has freed one's self from the choking grip of the Great Mother. There is no one there to help him. He is alone, finally, alone.

22.) "Just remember I will always love you," He will never stop loving his mother, the personal one and the archetypal one. In fact, everything he is doing is out of love.

23.) "Even as I claw your fucking throat away." Here is a direct allusion to the slaying of the dragon, the Ouroboros.

24.) "It will end no other way." There are no pills to take here. No Prozac can save you. Nothing will solve this for him but the slaying of the dragon. He must say goodbye to mommy.

You see, only now can he really develop a relationship with his Anima. The Great Mother has been slain, now Maynard may experience the feminine in different ways. His Anima will bring him closer and closer to the unconscious, to God. She will help him, "Pry open his Third Eye." But you see, everything moves in circles. The Ouroboros is a closed system. So, paradoxically, slaying the dragon is the only way to really have sex with your mother. Get it?

Now I am going to go into my backyard, slip Salival into my CD player, look up at the cosmos and go on a warrior's journey with Maynard. God bless these four guys as they again bring a myth alive. Their music has truly been a light for me, leading me into the darkness, guiding me towards unconsciousness, and again, into the light.

[Matter Specter]

very interesting interpretation _ but i have to disagree.

as for the ouroboros , the serpent that bites its own tail : i have allways understood as the belief that matter is in a constant cycle of destruction and creation . i may be wrong .. but i think im right.

[Tantobourne]

Yeah, I like the thought you put into it. I don't whole heartedly agree, either. That's not to say that you're wrong. That's to say that I'm still digesting my own thoughts on the matter. I may, after a time, find myself coming to the same conclusion. Or I may not. I'd been reading a smidge of Jung lately. Not really even scratching the surface in terms of understanding the big picture he tries to paint.

It is good food for thought though, eh? You almost want to grin and slap Maynard on the back of that bald head of his and say, "What were ya thinkin?" and then slipping quickly back to avoid that Judo grab, hip-throw he's about to lay down on your ass.

But seriously, thanks for spending the time to write the stuff down.

-Tant

[IC]

Maynard had said about Aenima, that he was influenced by many many things. I always related to Pushit as it being about a story of a man becoming a prisoner of war after a battle. I dont know. I think your mother fucking idea is a bit off though.

[JTCrace]

I am certainly not here to try and convince anyone that my interpretation is correct. I have already decided that for myself. I understand that the Oedipal drama is a difficult one to swallow. Let me clear something up: when I refer to Maynard and his mother, we are talking about a symbolic drama. We talking about an inner phenomenon that occurs within his psyche. I believe some of you may be confused as are many other people about this subject. In fact, this is exactly why Jung split with Freud.

You see, Freud took the Oedipal fantasies only as literal, physical desire. Jung saw it much differently, in a more spiritual light. Jung did not deny the existence of the fantasies. But he felt the fantasies were merely the way the psyche was communicating to the ego certain psychological truths. Another example: along with the Oedidpal complex, Freud saw that every young boy represses a desire to kill his father. Looked at in a symbolic manner, we see that a desire to kill the father is ultimately a desire to free one's self from the collective and standard values of the time. Only through killing the father can we truly, "Push the envelope." I am sure some of you are familiar with Star Wars (which by the way is largely based upon Jungian ideas). What happens at the end? Luke must battle his father for a new order to be established.

Also, what about the function of myth? In ancient Greece, they had a plethora of myths and legends. Why did these things hold such importance to these people? Because back then, as far as I know, there were no Jungian analysts in practice. The myths allowed for the expression of certain universal thruths that were contained in everyone's psyche. Why was the myth of Oedipus told? For entertainment? I don't think so. It was so a young Greek man could consciously integrate his fantasies and desires and drives in a healthy manner, that is without going fucking nuts and killing his mother and then himself. What we call archetypes now, were the Gods in ancient times. They function in the same way.

Of course another reason why some of you may reject my interpretation is because you have repressed Oedipal desires yourself. No? Well, I am sorry to say, but everyone has them, so, 'fess up!

By the way, the Ouroboros can be looked at in many, many different ways. Every thing in our world works in cycles so essentially it can be representative of every process known to man, life-death-rebirth being the ultimate one.

It is quite obvious that Maynard was inspired by many a thing as he helped create the masterpiece known as Aenima. But over above everything it seems it is largely based upon Jungian psychology. Come on, they named the album after a Jungian archetype for Christ's sake!

[Matter Specter]

i dismissed your application to the song . not jungian theory .

[Zole]

Damn, I always thought of push it as the story of an abusive relationship, never with maynard's mother though. In the end I think of him breaking away from this relationship by means of violence, and generally becoming free. I guess my opion roughly follows yours, which makes a lot of sense.
I never consiously wanted to fuck my mother though...

[JTCrace]

Make it conscious. But be fully prepared to disappear.

[Looque]

Since it's four in the morning, I don't exactly wish to begin a lengthy discourse, but I will say that I feel your interpretation is fairly far-fetched and inaccurate. Of course everyone is entitled to their own opinions, but you seem to feel that this is the only possible meaning that could have been intended by Maynard; that anything else would be ridiculous. This, in my opinion, is ridiculous (and I do have a good grasp of both Jungian and Freudian psychology. You're right, the album draws heavily in some areas on Jungian psychology, i.e. "46 & 2," but I don't think this song is one of them).

[JTCrace]

I feel strongly about my interpretation, and I can say with somewhat certainty that I believe it is correct. I do not think I ever gave the impression that any other interpretation would be ridiculous, only that I wouldn't believe it.

So, Looque, why don't you take the time and effort to explain why you disbelieve my interpretation to be correct. That is why I began this thread. But as you can notice, everyone can knock my view, but yet nobody gives an interpretation of their own (save Zole). Ya' never know, I may change my mind if I encounter something that makes more sense. Never say never.

[Ignignot]

Damn, I always thought of push it as the story of an abusive relationship, never with maynard's mother though. In the end I think of him breaking away from this relationship by means of violence, and generally becoming free. I guess my opion roughly follows yours, which makes a lot of sense.
I never consiously wanted to fuck my mother though...

I will agree with you, because that is always what I thought it was about. But I guess I'm wrong, and I will admit it because I don't want everyone to jump all over me about it. But yes, I thought it was about an abusive relationship, and that is what most of the lyrics imply to me.

[Restrain_yourself]

I always thought that this song was mjk talking about how he (or anyone) changed over time. Through out the whole song he uses references towards two people one acting as the other seems to shy away; yet both have some connection. Then at the end of the song he convinces himself that change is the only way to respond to the cycles of life-----------
"Remember i will always love you..."
"...tear your throat away... there is no other way"
I think you might get my view by now, but hey props on the mom-
I-really-want-to-fuck-you-but-maybe-later-I-need-to-becme-a-man-stuff; that was crazy and I only pray for it NOT to be true but i think it was a worth while opinion.

peace--------------and Goodbye

[JTCrace]

I believe it to be very easy to glean a general interpretation of this tune. It is about a relationship he has with someone/something that is unhealthy and must be dealt with. And to "Restrain Yourself", I think you very correct in your thoughts. It seems there is this complete duality in his nature. First, you have the little boy complex, or puer aeuternus complex who seems to be battling with the Man. You have the boy, who exists only in relation to the mother; a complex designed to relate to the unconscious. Then you have the Man, who exists in only in relation to himself; a complex designed to relate to the Self, or God-image.

Not to be cliche, but in the song jimmy Maynard is releasing the inner child. He is opening up communication to the experiences of his past, the experiences that have shaped who he is today. But you see, jimmy is only an introduction to something. It is only the entry point. That is why the tune ends with the line, "I am heading back home." The song does not address what is dealt with when he has returned home. And this is exactly how "Pushit" begins.

Pushit is a song about ego-development. It is of the utmost importance that every male develop a healthy, functioning ego. The male consciousness must be freed from the confines of the Great Mother, and she ultimately represents unconsciousness in general. Because of these experiences Maynard had as a child, he hadn't fully developed a healthy, free ego.

[Restrain_yourself]

Well honestly i might think the same if a had a better background a Freud and his- lets say different- theories. But lets point out that Freud had only theories, not facts; and in saying that anything that you state about Freud and his teachings are hereto theories. I am not talking about your opinion on the song, that everyone knows is just theory, in this case you use a theory to back up a hypothesis... DONT get me wrong, I for one (and you make two) think this idea has a high degree of plausability; but finding an under-lying theme in a Tool song with nothing save a theory is pretty hard to manage...or is it??????

peace-----------and Goodbye

[mud_soul]

saying freud was RIGHT is like saying hitler was RIGHT...they were both as crazy as each other

pseudo-philosophers love him cause he is so easy to quote : "everything is mother or father "...lol

i think this song is about Hitler and his plan to annihalate jews cause he says " tear your fucking throat away" or something.

this is great

Brendon

By the way im not saying you're wrong , iits a really very intersting idea to put forward, but, man, if i said pushit was about the god damn teletubbies on extasy, i could tell you lines from the song to illustrate it...right?

[JTCrace]

When I read my original post, I don't see too much of a Freudian interpretation of the song. I used a Freudian framework (as did Jung many times in his work) to establish a more spiritual, universal, interpretation--one that was more towards love, and growth and evolution and development. I expected my post to turn heads. Because I generally know what type of crowd listens to TOOL (or at last the portion of the crowd that posts on a TOOL-oriented forum): feminine, intellectual males. Males who imagine themselves as some groundbreaking thinkers who are pushing the envelope at every turn. When in all reality, they are pussies who use their intellectuality as a substitute for life and progress and power. You know how I know? Because I am one of them and I see others just like me all around. Males who haven't yet exited the womb, guys who trade mommy for drugs and a girlfriend. It's all the same shit. We are all in hiding. Look at us, hunched over our computer screens, posting 24 hours a day. Creating dialogues that go nowhere, and really, really, bad narcissistic negative poetry. The movie "Fight Club" was made for us. Tyler says, "We are a generation of men raised by women. I am beginning to think that another woman is not what we need." Oh shit, Megan just called--better call her back immediately, my sanity depends on it! He also says: "Our fathers are supposed to be models for God. God has abandoned us. Maybe we need to accept the fact that we are God's unwanted children." "We didn't live through the Great Depression or a war. Our war is a spiritual war, our depression is our lives."

And I am sorry to say, but we are losing that war. A friend of mine has even said that it has already been lost. But I remain hopeful. We need something big, something powerful to happen. There is too much momentum towards spiritual death to change the tide on a personal level. That is what Maynard is praying for in "Aenima." I know he doesn't want people to get hurt or die. He is praying for something big, to transform our consciousness in one big fucking blow. I hope to God it happens. For the sake of our children and the life of this beautiful planet.

You can deny the validity of Freud if you want, or psychology in general, maybe that's not your bent. But you have to be honest with yourself and look to see if your denial of Freud is a hidden denial of yourself, of your wholeness.

If I have realized anything in my life it is that I have been in
hiding the whole time, from myself and everyone else. I have lived in fear of my own power and my own beingness. Chosen pain over love, chaos over order, death over life. I have been scared "to be." I'll stick my nose is some fucking book, or my dick in a snatch. Or I'll smoke a joint or take a hit of acid and call it "expanding my mind." Or I can listen to TOOL, for some of us, the biggest drug of all. But there is hope. There is truth out there. I have found that you have to dig and dig. And what works for me, may or may not work for anyone else.

Jung called the path of wholeness the "process of individuation." And he said that what from our point of view appears as becoming a truly unique individual, is incarnation from God's point of view.

[Restrain_yourself]

ok that was pretty deep

[Wolf]

Ok, after reading this behemoth of a post, i have several things i wish to comment on.

The draw between copulation and a mother is extremely interesting, and it makes very much sense, but maybe not particularly for this song.

I personally think males do not go and find a mate of the opposite sex because they want a version of their mother, but because humans are extremely emotionally-unstable beings. That is why we turn to religion, it is our teddy bear, our bigger, more powerful entity that is watching over us, something we wish, and hope is going to watch over us and protect us, when really, in my opinion, their isn't. I don't believe in or a god, I just personally believe that humans have trouble surviving without a belief that we are not alone, and that their is always something to protect us, when we are really on our own, and the only way for us to make it through this journey that is life, is to lie to ourselves, to comfort ourselves, and say that it is all ok, God, or a god is protecting us.
Now, as for copulation and marrige, humans are emotioanlly unstable beings, and it is very difficult for us to make it though this tremendous journey we call life alone, that is why we marry, to have a companion, to help us, to know that we are not always on our own. And that, will make life all the more easier, for most people.
Now, sooner our later, and I can guarantee this, someone will come along with no sexual preference, and this person believe it or not, will be our stepping stone into the next evolutionary pattern. Why? Because this entity/person, will not be binded to their instincts. They will feel that they do not have to copulate, for we cannot truly evolve until we break apart from our instincts, and become one with ourselves, and not our animal insticnts. This may seem a little much a first, coming from a fifteen-year old, but put it into prospective, and it will make sense.

With that said, I have another thing to comment on. You say that people who listen to tool our these pussies who think they are groundbreaking thinkers, and it is true beacause we are slouched in front of our computers, posting. What the shit?? Not true what so ever. I, of course am a tool fan, and a male, and I don not think of myself as a ground breaking thinker, and I am, not a pussy who uses my intellectuality as a substitute for life and progress and power. I have ambitions, I have strengths, I have weaknesses, I feel tool is an outlet to the mess that the world is in now, I feel inspired by them, I feel connected, I have the urge to do more with my thoughts and feelings, something grand, something I am still searching for, and I do not post on this website beacuse I am afraid of what is out there, it is because people on these opinion pages are very intelligent people, and have very intelligent things to say. It would be a shame to ignore it and put all those thoughts to waste just because somebody feels that doing so, is being a pussy and is afraid of what is out there.

With that said, I think I am finished. Oh yes, good luck trying to find anything in the cosmos with all the damn light pollution, oh yea, and have fun playing drums to this song, it takes a little work memorizing it and knowing when to come in towards the end, but in the long run, it's not that hard.

[JTCrace]

We are:

25% Heterosexual
25% Homosexual
25% Both
25% Neither

So, that person that you are looking for, the asexual being who will catalyze our evolution--he's you!

[Wolf]

We are:

25% Heterosexual
25% Homosexual
25% Both
25% Neither

So, that person that you are looking for, the asexual being who will catalyze our evolution--he's you!

Several things in that statement confuse me. But to clear something up, i'm straight dude, i have a sexual preference, women.

[Luna Galapogos]

Let me start out by saying that I believe the first two posts on this thread are true. Also, I don't think that this would piss Maynard off because you are merely posting what this means to you, and that is what the Opinion section is all about.

Now, let me just say that I have had thoughts of screwing my mom before. I quickly dismissed these thoughts however, trying to convince myself that that sort of thing is unnatural and disgusting. For a while, it was a struggle because thoughts came without warning, and without consent, I didn't like it. And as I tried to continue pushing it away, it kept pushing itself upon me. It was only when I got a g/f and she helped me start to become my own person, and I developed more and more that I broke free of these bonds.

I know that some guys won't have these thoughts consciously, but I think that it is there for every male.

I am a human, and I do believe that I am unstable, I don't think that I could make it through this tedious life alone. I think that everybody is a pussy really because they can't live without something, we are all so dependant on something else. As far as God goes, believe what you will, I believe that there is a God. An intelligent designer. I am not here to convince you of that, and I don't want you to try to convince me otherwise. That is why there is freedom of choice. So choose not to bicker pointlessly about shit. This site is to inform others of YOUR opinions, not to bring the other peoples opinions to their knees. It is called constructive critisiscm. Throw your opinion out there, and perhaps JTCrace will find it to be true, maybe not. Personally, I think he's right. Of course you can disregard everything that I have said, but try and be constructive instead of destructive. You will become more knowledgeable and intelligent, I promise. Open your third eye for crying out loud. Anyway, I think that I've said enough.

'Prying open your third eye. This body reminds me that I am not alone.'

[JTCrace]

Wolf:

As this universe was created, it unfolded as a mirrored duality. This is symbolized through the Yin-Yang. So when you look at something that seems so simple, such as sexuality, you can't just look at one aspect if you want to evolve. Since sexuality is something contained within this universe, and as are we, then there must be four aspects of it. Hence, heterosexuality, homosexuality, both, and neither. Another one is "As above, so below," "As below, so above," "Agreement," and "Disagreement." (Check out my article titled "Setting the table with Saag Paneer" in the Letter section) Also, being homosexual does not mean you have to go out and fuck someone of the same sex. It just means you acknowledge yet another part of yourself. Also, maybe for you religion has something to do with emotions, or their instability. But for me religion only means one thing: becoming and being whole.

Luna:

It takes "balls" to confront those desires of yours. But let me ask you one thing: how exactly did your girlfriend help you get over this shit? And, God as an intelligent designer? I think whoever created this fucked up universe must have been a very imbalanced individual. In fact, Gnostics call him the Demiurgos, the creator Half-God. A god who think he's God, but is really just some asshole on a fucking ego-trip, but I do love him just the same. So where exactly did this creator god, Demiurgos, come from? It seems Christ held the answer to that one.

[Luna Galapogos]

Wolf:

As this universe was created, it unfolded as a mirrored duality. This is symbolized through the Yin-Yang. So when you look at something that seems so simple, such as sexuality, you can't just look at one aspect if you want to evolve. Since sexuality is something contained within this universe, and as are we, then there must be four aspects of it. Hence, heterosexuality, homosexuality, both, and neither. Another one is "As above, so below," "As below, so above," "Agreement," and "Disagreement." (Check out my article titled "Setting the table with Saag Paneer" in the Letter section) Also, being homosexual does not mean you have to go out and fuck someone of the same sex. It just means you acknowledge yet another part of yourself. Also, maybe for you religion has something to do with emotions, or their instability. But for me religion only means one thing: becoming and being whole.

Luna:

It takes "balls" to confront those desires of yours. But let me ask you one thing: how exactly did your girlfriend help you get over this shit? And, God as an intelligent designer? I think whoever created this fucked up universe must have been a very imbalanced individual. In fact, Gnostics call him the Demiurgos, the creator Half-God. A god who think he's God, but is really just some asshole on a fucking ego-trip, but I do love him just the same. So where exactly did this creator god, Demiurgos, come from? It seems Christ held the answer to that one.


As far as desires, she helped me in a specific way. I think that there is someone for everyone. The person that makes you gaga for no reason, just makes you stupid almost. It is love I believe. That is what happened. By meeting her and then falling in love with her, it broke my bonds. By accepting my love, no matter how stupid I probably acted let me focus my love and desires toward her. She set me free.
As far as God goes, I don't know how he got there, always was there according to the Bible. And as far as the Bible's legitamacy goes, the proveable things in it have been proven to be true. Some things just need faith to be believed.
Now, I don't think that he is a fucked up asshole. He created us perfect, and then he gave us choice. We ate of the fruit. We screwed ourselves over. But that was the only way for us to love him. If he didn't give us choice and allow us to know the difference of good and evil, then we would be forced to love him. That is not love. Anyway, then there was the crucifiction, which allows us to be forgiven of our sins if we ask. Of course he doesn't want you to be lukewarm. Either hate him or love him. You choose.
Anyway, feel free to make any comments, that goes for anyone.

Let me just say though, I can attest to JTCrace's statements in the first two postings. My mom feels that our family is falling apart due to the fact that everyone of the kids has left home pretty much. I guess that I ripped her fucking throat away. But my desires would have intensified I'm sure if it didn't end. It could have ended no other way.

[JTCrace]

Luna, here are some things to think about:

In Genesis God to lied to Adam and Eve. He told them they would die if they ate the fruit. They ate the fruit yet they continued living. You might say, "God did not kill them because he had mercy on them." Maybe, just maybe, he knew he couldn't really kill them. Nope, those apple-eatin' sonsabitches would just be reborn and do it all over again. He cast them out of the Garden and marked it with a star and aliens, ooops, no, he marked with a flaming sword that turns every which way and Cheribums, secretly hoping Adam and Eve would never find their way back, knowing if they did, his laws would no longer bind them.

Hebrews 10:1 "Since the law has only a shadow of the good things to come and not the true form of these realities, it can never, by the same sacrifices that are continually offerd year after year, make perfect those who approach."

Romans 6:14 "For sin will have no dominion over you, since you are not under law but under grace."

Galatians 2:19 "For through the law I died to law, so that I might live to God."

1 Corinthians 6:12 "All things are lawful for me," but not all things are beneficial. "All things are lawful for me," but I will not be dominated by anything.

1Corinthians 10:23 "All things are lawful," but not all things build up.

1 John 3:4 "Everyne who commits sin is guilty of lawlessness; sin is lawlessness."

Romans 7:6 "But now we are discharged from the law, dead to that which held us captive, so that we are slaves not under the old written code but in the new life of the spirit."

So, I think it may be necessary for you, Luna, to designate which God you are talking about. The real one or that false, lying sack of ****.

[Luna Galapogos]

I suppose you'll have to tell me who you think is the real one and you think is the lying sack of **** for me to answer.

God banished Adam and Eve because they sinned. And they would have lived forever if they hadn't sinned. But they ate the fruit and died, he didn't say right away. He said they would die and they did, eventually. Anyway, I have a relationship with Jesus because he is the way the truth and the life, and no one shall get to the father except through him. I believe in the Trinity of the Father, Son, and the Holy Spirit that make up one God. I hope that answers your questions, but if not feel free to ask away.

Another part of having a relationship is faith. Faith is necessary for it too work. Not all things can be explained. In science they can't prove things like the Big Bang because we don't have the math to prove how something can come from absolutely nothing. Faith needs to be put into it. God is not sadistic or stupid. Nothing is contradictory. You just need the right Bible.

[Luna Galapogos]

Tell me what Bible you got those "quotes" from. If they are from the right one, then I'll believe you. Some bibles today are pure shit. Cross reference and they show up as saying that God is satan and that Jesus sinned, and so on, so if you tell me the Bible, and it is the right one, then I'll believe you.

Try the King James Authorized Version, not copyrighted. Yes, you can't find that in stores anymore. You'll have to go find it via internet. I recommend Cambridge as the place to go. Anyway, yes, I await any comments, questions, hate mail, what have you. I don't care. Send whatever.

[JTCrace]

Well, by using the translation excuse you have completely avoided any sort of real discussion. By the way, amongst Bible scholars the King James version is defintely not the best translation, it has been shown to be quite inaccurate at times. Come on, the reason King James decided to rewrite the bible was for purely political reasons. And it was a translation done hundreds of years ago. I got those quotes from the New Revised Standard edition which has these wonderful notations at the bottom of each page to let you know how different words can be used in Hebrew and Greek, so any inaccuracy is saved by the notations.

In Genesis God lied and the serpent was honest and truthful. God could not kill the primal couple because they were actually more powerful than him. No they didn't die, their bodies did, their spirits are immortal.

Those quotes show the obvious dichotomy inherent in the New Testament. There is a clear distinction between the God of the Old Testament, Yahweh, Elohim, El Shaddai, and the God of the New Testament, a God which is beyond the law, the Father. These quotes clearly delineate the division. As long as you keep Christ an external image you will remain in a condition of: non-confront, denial, ignorance, misery, insanity, and all sorts of other afflictions created by this wonderful God of yours. FUCK YOUR GOD. I am so sick of hearing this mindless fucking recording: "Jesus died for our sins. The only way to salvation is through him." The only person that can pay for your sins is YOU! So why don't you take some responsibility and become accountable for your actions instead of putting it on the shoulders of some statue. Believe me, if Christianity was so effective I sincerely think that after two thousand years we would see a little less violence, and hate, and darkness.

[Luna Galapogos]

Well hey, I'm not telling you to believe what I say, I believe what I believe, and you believe what you believe. I would like to see those inconsistecies that you spoke of however. Anyway, my intention was not to avoid the question in any way. But that is ok, I don't really care. Like I said before, you believe what you want and I'll do the same because I believe in freedom of choice.

P.S. the scholars of today are screwed, I don't believe them. I think that make bad translations. Well hell, whatever, I don't care, and I don't think anyone reading this thread cares a whole lot, I'll bet they came to see stuff about Pushit, which you quite brilliantly illuminated what I believe is the correct meaning behind it. Not to say that there aren't more than one. But I think you hit the nail on the head. Claps. Anyway, I'm done.

[mud_soul]

i care

i love religious debates, they amuse me no end.
i say keep going, i say, more more, i say, lets work out right here, right now which is the " REAL " religion

Brendon
( my god has a bigger dick then your god )
*smile

[Ruckus]

JTCrace: I really like that interptretation. It fits in nicely with the overall tone of the album (like you mentioned with Jimmy, Aenima and Third Eye) as well as with other of MJK's projects (Orestes from A Perfect Circle ... interestingly enough, Oretses was the brother of Electra, bearer of the burden of the origianl Electra complex, that being the contrasting feminine developmental process). It does indeed take some balls to confront one's own Oedipal tendencies.

Of course, mud-soul had a valid point, that we may never know exactly what Maynard intended with this opus. Maybe it's better that way, to have an experience with the music instead of cognition. Maybe I'm just saying that because this is all way too deep for me :)

[mysoleisblack]

I liked your interpretation of Pushit, It helped me shape my theory of it. I don't see it so much as a relationship with the mother figure, but as the relationship with God. That was the first thought that came to my mind when i first listened to the lyrics of the song, that it was a struggle with God. This interpretation helped me understand what I thought of my own theory alot.

Thanks

[JTCrace]

Jung said in his autobiography that the unconscious is simply the unknown. He goes on to say that we could very well call the unknown, "God." So, the mother archetype is a specific manifestation of the divine. In Hinduism, there is Brahman--God. And all the specific Gods and Goddesses are just different manifestations of Brahman. So in that sense, you were right on the fucking money, both our interpretatins are essentially the same.

[PRNinja23]

Exactly, I can imagine him reading all these "way off" interpretations, getting enraged, and shooting yet another monitor. Then he fires off a string of hateful e-mails to Kabir about people finding out his secrets! "Stop them!" Good thing he's not in the tabloids.

I don't have enough time to read this entire thread, but after I did some reading that summarized Jungian psychology, this song made sense to my life situation.

Now I have a new observation I'd like to throw out there. Sometimes when he says "You're pushin' me/you push it on me" it sounds like something else.

One time it sounds like "shit on me" or "put shit on me" which applies to my life situation in that I had been shitting on myself for years and didn't even know I could stop. Sometimes it's "pushing me," but sometimes it's "push it on me." The object of the pushing changes. Any thoughts here? I'm thinking pushing the plunger, but that's just my perspective on just about everything. (No, not a toilet plunger.)

[PRNinja23]

In addition, it sounds like "shoot it in me" at one point.

[Zole]

The reason the world is still so fucked up after 2000 years of christianity is our own fault, choice. We chose the paths we take, and we all fall short of the glory. As for your references to the Bible, I am borderline on rejecting any form of it and dismissing it as purely metaphorical (the old testament that is). The new testament has been changed so many times, according to the political agenda of those in charge that its hard to have faith in this man made text. No, I prefer to trust in the personal relationship with Christ, even if it really is only my own subconcious.

[JTCrace]

Several posts above I quoted Paul saying that sin is lawlessness. It was also said of Christ that he was incapable of sin. Therefore in a sense one could say that Christ was lawless. The law no longer binded him, or, as another passage goes: the law was dead to him. Now the question remains, how does one go about transcending the law? Or in other words, how the fuck does one get the hell out of this universe?

Some Gnostic sects believed that one could transcend the law by completely missing the mark, or by sinning completely, totally, and wholly. But it seems the other logical conclusion is that one can transcend the law by following it completely, like the Jews.

It all comes down to agreement. Agreement precedes reality. Therefore all one must do is go back to that point before all of one's past lives, and then illuminate the point when one agreed to have a physical body. "I'm came into this world, I am not OF this world."

[paraflux]

The above has been very interesting, I must say. But my interpretation of Pushit works well for me...

I see it as a man struggling with his two sides, survival and compassion. The gap is the void which must be crossed in order to pass from this hellish place to the brighter, higher ground where the race will go if we choose to evolve.

1) Choke this infant here before me
Whatever part of the race that refuses to realize our potential, whatever part of the race that refuses to grow up and instead chooses to remain infantile, the speaker will choke (metaphorically, of course, meaning he will do nothing to stop the death that will consume that part of the race). It is necessary, but this is what conflicts with the speaker's sense of compassion.

2) What is this but my reflection
The part of the race that refuses to recognize will still be a part of the race at this point, therefore a reflection of the speaker in the sense we are all reflections off of each other.

3) Who am I to judge just like you do
A question, posed to himself, describing the conflict.

4) Pushin me, shovin me down
Our littlest actions will affect everyone in the world. The group that continues to push after greed, lust, other physical things affect those who want to ascend spiritually. It drags us down.

5) Rest your trigger on my finger/bang my head upon the faultline
A dig at those unwilling to see their light, its almost as if they want the speaker to put them out of their misery, or they push the speaker to the point where he feels he is being pushed into a corner and needs to be rid of these people.

6) Put me somewhere I don't wanna be. Seeing someplace I don't want to see. Never wanna see that place again.
This is a miserable whining voice. The speaker is looking at the place where the people are pulling him, or pushing him, trying to keep him. He hates it. There is no reason to stay here when he knows the other side of the gap holds so many pleasures and the absence of fear and pain.

7) When I say I might fade like a sigh if I stay/You minimize my movements anyway/I must persuade you another way
The speaker tells the group that he will wither away if he stays here, but they dont care. They are selfish. They keep him down anyway. So therefore, he must persuade them another way, hence all the choking and ripping of throats.

8) There is no love in fear
This is the culminating factor!! He is compassionate towards those of the race that will not make it, but understands that they do not feel love. They only fear, and fear is what drives greed and other aspects of the race that we currently possess.

9) Staring down the hole again. Hands upon my back again.
Another reference to how he feels when being pushed around.

10) I will always love you as I throw your fucking throat away/It will end no other way...
This separation is done out of love, the speaker finds. To love the race, he has to take his part in helping those who want to evolve instead of worrying about the ones who dont. We will kill those who arent ready with tears in our eyes. We love them, but we also love life, and it is necessary to do this in order for life to continue.

[Luna Galapogos]

Several posts above I quoted Paul saying that sin is lawlessness. It was also said of Christ that he was incapable of sin. Therefore in a sense one could say that Christ was lawless. The law no longer binded him, or, as another passage goes: the law was dead to him. Now the question remains, how does one go about transcending the law? Or in other words, how the fuck does one get the hell out of this universe?

Some Gnostic sects believed that one could transcend the law by completely missing the mark, or by sinning completely, totally, and wholly. But it seems the other logical conclusion is that one can transcend the law by following it completely, like the Jews.

It all comes down to agreement. Agreement precedes reality. Therefore all one must do is go back to that point before all of one's past lives, and then illuminate the point when one agreed to have a physical body. "I'm came into this world, I am not OF this world."

You can certainly use that logic if you want, but that is twisting it. Think of this. Everybody is somebody, so since of somebody, I'm everybody. If I'm everybody then I'm omniscient, and if that is the case then I'm God. You can do that with a whole hell of a lot of things. He didn't transcend the law, he represented the law because the law was set down by the Father. The Father, Son, and the Holy Spirit are one, so essentially the law was set down by the son. So pretty much Jesus just abided by his laws which made him perfect and faultless which could seem to be a transcending of the law, but it is merely an exact following of the law and a perfect example. "I came to this world" from Heaven, "I am not OF this world" because he is from Heaven, he was God and man.

[JTCrace]

Right, Christ followed the law exactly and they FUCKING CRUCIFIED HIM! Following the law is a wonderful thing and it can make life on Earth go a bit smoother. But like Paul said: "All things are lawful," but not all things build up." This means that due to the imperfection of the universe, law can at best, only be imperfect itself, hence the crucifiction.

Your typical Christian hates to hear that the form of Christianity we see flourishing today is only one form of the religion, compared to a multitude of forms in the 1st to 5th century. And at the Council of Nicea the Church kindly decided for the rest of humanity what "Christianity" would be. You see, the Church is a group and a group behaves as an individual. And the very essence of a group is the denial of individuality. Therefore, the Church chose doctrines, ideas, and beliefs that would perpetuate its own existence, its own survival, its own immortality, consequently choosing doctrines that would deny the emancipation of the individual. Unfortunately, people today are only exposed to the Church's idea of Christianity (even those claiming not to belong to a church still seem to be heavily influenced by the Church's gleaning of Christian doctrine). For instance, there exists the Gospel of Thomas, which is said to even predate the synoptic Gospels in the Bible. The Gospel of Thomas certainly paints a much different image of Christ and his message. Oddly, it seems to promote the liberation of the individual. In fact, in one passage of the Gospel of Thomas Christ says that at a certain point he no longer is a disciple's teacher, that at a certain point the disciple transcends Christ's teachings. The movie "Stigmata", though it was obviously somewhat fabricated, brought forth an interesting notion, that Christian writings such as the Gospel of Thomas directly threaten the Church's authority. And when the Church becomes threatened, like any "reasonable" individual, it will fight for its survival.

Another thing...due to how obvious a truth it is people have a hard time noticing that everything they experience is an inner image. You only see what's in your mind, you only hear what's in your mind. So when one talks of God, He's not "out there" but he is right there is your crazy fucking mind. The Father, Son and Holy Spirit are all inner phenomenon. They are all part of YOU. The Father is your Self, the Son is your ego and the Holy Spirit is how these upper and lower kingdoms communicate with one another. Put that in your pipe and smoke it ;)

[Luna Galapogos]

Do you know where I can find the Gospel of Thomas, if it is possible? I do not agree with following blindly, and so I disagree with what they did at the church in Nicea or however it is spelled. If I can get a hold of that Gospel, that would be wonderful. I interpret what the bible says as how I feel it should be interpreted, if the church doesn't like, screw them. I do not feel a part of a whole in church, it is more like finding what is in the bible and then interpreting it the way you believe it should be interpreted. Anywho, yes, if I could get a link or a place where it can be found, it would be much appreciated.

[Matter Specter]

http://reluctant-messenger.com/gospel-thomas-Stephen_Patterson.htm

[ry.]

You're right, the album draws heavily in some areas on Jungian psychology, i.e. "46 & 2," but I don't think this song is one of them).

i beg to differ,

i believe, personally, the song is about a relationship in which the main character of the song is cheated on, but i believe the "infant" choked before him is a metaphor where the infant is the relationship itself.

As for the Jung allusion,
"what is this but my reflection
who am i to judge or strike you down"
the main character is speaking of his (assuming he is indeed male) anima. For Jung said the anima is the essentally the female consciousness in every male.

[philosophomore]

I agree, and I would like to thank JTCrace for his illuminating posts. I definitely think this song has many deep symbolic interpretations and it is not meant to be taken literally (as it sounds like a domestic dispute or something).

On one of the Tool bootlegs that I have, Maynard introduces this song (album version) by saying, "Ever have someone love you so much that they tried to kill you- or perhaps suck you down into a hole? So much so that you had to kill them to get away? [long pause] Me either...

[imtheism]

Good insightful post. Fits together if you believe in the Oedipus complex as being 100% true. Unfortunately, most psychologists now a days think it to be crap, and the only reason it's ever mentioned is 1)history 2) nostalgia 3) was very revolutionary at the time. Freud had a LOT of theories, and he was the first one to really go into any type of details about theories of human developement/thinking. Most his stuff is taught as groundwork nowadays, but the vast majority of it has been found to, or is believed to be false - including the Oedipus complex.

Otherwise, great post. If it makes sense for you, more power to ya. Personally, I think its about a relationship (as most all the songs are) he had with a women, but not his mother.

[JTCrace]

A psychologist is in his essence, a scientist. Therefore he can only postulate theories and support these theories with observable evidence. As far as who's right and who's wrong depends upon the validity of the evidence and whether it proves the hypothesis beyond a reasonable doubt. I don't "believe" in the Oedipus complex, I "know" that the Oedipus complex exists. Let me explain.

A complex is an observable pattern of behaviour. The Oedipus Complex is a pattern of behaviour produced by interactions with one's personal mother as well as the Mother Archetype. Jung said that in fact, we don't have complexes, but that they have us. This means that a complex is an identity that a male takes on. It is not HIM essentially, but only an identity that he assumes.

Gurdjieff (a spiritual teacher from the early 1900s) said that man's biggest illusion is that he has a permanent ego, or that he has any unity within himself. In actual fact, man in his present state is a huge conglomerations of ego's, each with a specific desire. An identity is a collection of like-minded ego's, or ego's that have similar and-or related desires. for instance, the person you are when you are around your grandmother is certainly not the person you are around your best friend--these are two different identities.

But of course this brings up the question: do I want to be the same person when I am around my grandmother and when I am around my best friend? Well, some of the shit I say to my best friend would give my grandmother a fucking heart attack on the spot. So, no I would like to keep these two identities and keep them separate. However, the important thing is that I RECOGNIZE and CONTROL these identities, and make sure it is not the other way around.

The situation that Maynard is describing in "Pushit" is the typical behaviour one sees when one is observing a male that possesses the Oedipus Complex (or Oedipus Identity if you like). What normally happens with a male who has an unrecognized Oedipus Complex is that when he chooses a mate, it is not "him" doing the choosing. His complex will pick out a female that will allow it (the complex) to be fully expressed. So, even if Maynard is outwardly writing about a girlfriend, inwardly he is still dealing with the complex.

The reason I "know" that the Oedipus Complex exists is because I have observed it--in myself and in many, many other males, old and young. In fact, it is quite the epidemic. And it is absolutely destroying this planet. Here is why: when a male is possessed with the complex, like I said above, this complex represents a collection of "I's" or egos. The problem with this identity is that it is not centered upon the self, it is centered on another. Therefore it prevents a male from developing "I's" that are centered upon himself and consequently he can't "do." And furthermore, it prevents a male from developing any other sort of "I's" that are not centered around union and consummation with the Mother.

And lastly, just because "most psychologists" believe something does not make it true. I'll bet my left testicle that the reason "most psychologists" believe the Oedipus Coplex is "crap" is because they are all possessed themselves. And now their denial, has become your denial.

[AllforUnity]

Why would you post something that you think will piss Maynard off? :-/

[imtheism]

BECAUSE JUNG OR FREUD SAID IT, DOES NOT MAKE IT GOSPEL.
Psychologist's are scientists yes, and the vast vast majority of them think the Oedipus complex to be complete and utter crap. Somehow though, I'm sure your personal experiences outweigh all the research/observation done by the thousands of psychologists thruout the world.

Also, the way you're trying to use the oedipus conflict is flawed. Not to mention the fact that 1) you explained it wrong 2) are infering what you think it to mean 3) are using those inferences as fact. You're mixing up 3 or 4 theories all together, most of which are incorrect in the way you're using em (esp oedipus).

[Luna Galapogos]

BECAUSE JUNG OR FREUD SAID IT, DOES NOT MAKE IT GOSPEL.
Psychologist's are scientists yes, and the vast vast majority of them think the Oedipus complex to be complete and utter crap. Somehow though, I'm sure your personal experiences outweigh all the research/observation done by the thousands of psychologists thruout the world.

Also, the way you're trying to use the oedipus conflict is flawed. Not to mention the fact that 1) you explained it wrong 2) are infering what you think it to mean 3) are using those inferences as fact. You're mixing up 3 or 4 theories all together, most of which are incorrect in the way you're using em (esp oedipus).


I can understand that you might be mad that JT says that Freud and Jung are more correct than all of the observations made by thousands of phsycologists, but you say that the way he tries to use the oedipus conflict is flawed. It would be nice if YOU explained why the fuck you think he is wrong. Your telling without explaining is more aggrivating than someone revealing themselves through something (even if they're wrong). At least JT uses facts that he has seen to back up what he says. You just seem pissed. I'm guessing that the Oedipus complex has you.

P.S. FUCK YOU BUDDY

[imtheism]

-Oedipus conflict - the boy begins to have sexual desires for his mother, and sees his father as a rival for her affections. The boy begins to fear that his father is suspicious of his longing for his mother, and that the father will punish him for his desires. That punishment, the boy fears, will be castratation, which brings us to the second critical episode for this stage.
-Castration anxiety- The fear of castration make the boy anxious. This anxiety begun with the fear of punishment from the father leads to the boy thinking that the father hates him eventually becomes unbearable and the boy renounces his sexual feelings for his mother and chooses instead to identify with his father, and hopes to someday have a relationship with a woman (though not his mother) just like dear old dad has with his mother.

Thats the oedipus conflict. A child want's to be close to the parent of the opposite sex, but they're currently (obviously) involved with the other parent. Therefore, a child must eliminate the same-sex parent to have have any shot (although we know this would never work anyway).

Psychologists have discovered that children don't really go thru this type of a stage, and time spent with whichever parent is generally dictated by whichever parent is able to give more attention at the time (as children love attention).

All the different things he's infered from the conflict don't work out. The mother wanting to be with him? laff. The boy wanting to jump back into the womb? zz. The boy in an oedipus complex wants to bang his moms, or be 'sexual', not go back into the womb. Half his explanation revolves around the mother wanting him to stay or be with her, seducing him purposefully. This is not the oedipus complex, the conflict is entirely 100% between the boy and the father.

Ps. Eat a cock.

[imtheism]

furthermore, I'm not saying HE can't believe that the song is about the oedipus conflict, he can believe whatever he wants. I'm just shedding some light on why I don't believe it to be so.

[Luna Galapogos]

Good points, definitely worth hearing. By the way, I wasn't serious at the end of my last post, it is just from Hooker With A Penis. I noticed that my post made it seem like I was angry, I wasn't, so I just thought I'd throw that in at the end. Sorry to have upset you, I suppose I was blind to the way you would feel about it. However, I do have a question. You wouldn't happen to have got your User Name from Marilyn Manson would you have. The Irresponsible Hate Anthem in fact. In it he says "I am the ism, my hate's a prism" Anyways, maybe you did maybe you didn't. Either way, sorry for not being User Friendly.

[imtheism]

ha, guess i need to turn my sarcasm detectors up :o

The name was originally from manson yes, but i'll give ya an explaination of why I chose it for my online alias.

I started listening to manson at a time when I was still developing my personal philosophy about my own spirituality / religious beliefs (like a lot of people). Obviously he influences people in different ways. Listening to some of his lyrics, there was some words i didn't know. Ism (IRH) and erstaz (rock is dead), come to mind off the top of the head.

ism:
\Ism\, n. A doctrine or theory; especially, a wild or visionary theory

At this time i was reading into satanism, where you are more or less your own god. Find your own truths in thinngs, etc. "i'm the ism", in terms of his lyrics, it would mean him to be the one god, the way to follow, etc. When I thought about it and reflected on it, "i'm the ism" could also mean (in talking about myself) I personally am my own god. I answer to myself, and I live my life in such a way that best suits my personal beliefs that i have formed for myself. Although i dont proclaim to be anything but agnostic, my beliefs draw from different areas, and one i still believe in is some of the stuff i just mentioned about satanism.

"i'm the ism" - I am my own doctrine, way of life, god, etc.

[Mehhico]

-Oedipus conflict - the boy begins to have sexual desires for his mother, and sees his father as a rival for her affections. The boy begins to fear that his father is suspicious of his longing for his mother, and that the father will punish him for his desires. That punishment, the boy fears, will be castratation, which brings us to the second critical episode for this stage.
-Castration anxiety- The fear of castration make the boy anxious. This anxiety begun with the fear of punishment from the father leads to the boy thinking that the father hates him eventually becomes unbearable and the boy renounces his sexual feelings for his mother and chooses instead to identify with his father, and hopes to someday have a relationship with a woman (though not his mother) just like dear old dad has with his mother.

Thats the oedipus conflict. A child want's to be close to the parent of the opposite sex, but they're currently (obviously) involved with the other parent. Therefore, a child must eliminate the same-sex parent to have have any shot (although we know this would never work anyway).

Psychologists have discovered that children don't really go thru this type of a stage, and time spent with whichever parent is generally dictated by whichever parent is able to give more attention at the time (as children love attention).

Just a side note, do you know why Jung split away from Freud and his theories?

Regards,
Andy

[imtheism]

Just a side note, do you know why Jung split away from Freud and his theories?

Regards,
Andy
he didn't like the idea of his wee-wee possibly being cut off because of his secret desire for his mother?

actually, no. I haven't read that much jung, and am not very knowledgable in his theories.

[JTCrace]

Here's is why Jung broke from Freud (it's in his autobiography): Jung published a paper in which he hypothesized a different source for the Oedipus complex. Freud claimed that a boy's sexual attraction to his mother was intinctive, biological, and purely sexual. Jung on the other hand claimed that a boy's attraction for his mother was purely spiritual, or archetypal. This means that personal mothers are merely reflections of the Mother archetype.

The word archetype means "first imprint." Archetypes are universal, meaning that every one relates to the "Mother" somehow. The is only one problem with archetypes: they cannot be experienced directly, only indirectly by means of a complex. Jung said that archetypes exactly corresponded to what primitive people would have referred to as gods and goddesses.

And that is how primitive people would have solved the Oedipus Complex. For instance, in the village is a shrine to the Great Mother. Every other day a man is expected to go to the shrine. While there, he fully expresses his Oedipus Complex. He seeks nothing but divine consummation with the Mother goddess. He then leaves the shrine, his complex is satiatied and the complex waits patiently until the next time it can become activated.

Sadly though, because of advanced western thinking, we have no such rituals anymore. So the complex (that every male has) becomes covert and operates in an unconscious manner.

Sidenote: I personally do not think that Jung went far enough with his psychology. He claimed that archetypes had to remain unknown. I disagree. All one would really have to do is complete some past life recall and find out when the archetype (first-imprint) was first imprinted into one's mind. But until that point one should learn how to safely deal with the imprint.

Also, it seems maybe Jung denied Freud's theories because he never wanted to acknowledge that his desire for his mother really was a desire for his persoanl mother, not only the archetype.

And here is the ultimate understanding of Jung and Freud: Jung spoke in generalities and Freud spoke in specifics. And I guess you could say they are both right and both wrong.

[JTCrace]

Awesome reply... but let me explain further...

This concept naturally brings up some questions: if the word archetype means "first imprint", then who is the imprinter? And why did it-he-she do this? In Jung's introduction to "The Psychology of Alchemy" he says that psychology can only concern itself with the imprint, not the imprinter, that is a theologian's job.

I have said this before, maybe in this thread but definitely in others, reality is created by agreement. More broadly, a being's existence here in this universe is the result of agreements. And this is where we can see the real message of Siddhartha Gotama's no-self doctrine (the anatta doctrine). He claimed that by realizing that EVERY-THING in this universe is NOT YOU, one could escape. But how can one go about realizing such a thing? By resolving agreements that have been made, in this life and previous ones. And resolving agreements isn't just agreeing to disagree. One resolves agreements by duplicating them in time, space, form and event, in other words remembering them in the purest sense. Because by its very nature two things cannot exist in the same place in this universe. And when one duplicates an agreement, two things are existing in the same place and that is when you achieve erasure.

Now psychologists assume that we can do nothing about archetypes, that they are HERE to say. OK, but what if I wasn't HERE in this universe? Well, then archetypes wouldn't really
affect me. It would be like if a tear gas bomb went off in a house. The gas will only affect me as long as I am in the house. It will no longer affect me if I walk outside.

You said that "we can never control the sun personally no matter how hard we try." That is half-right. I cannot control how the sun affects you or any other being for that matter. However, I can control how it affects me.

Back to the imprinter. A being essentially has free will, or absolute freedom. If that is true, then one would have to agree to be imprinted. And to erase the sun's affect on me I would simply have to cognize that the sun is "not-I." And I could only truly cognize such a thing by recalling the point at which I decided it would be a part of me.

Another sidenote: Believe me, I know this post may sound a bit strange. But there is so much I had leave out for brevity's sake.

[devotedtool]

well.. lately..

My roommate/girlfriend amy and I just broke up and I kicked her out.... we only dated for a week... last weekend, I heard that she was dating some black male stripper for a hip hop radio station.. she was at his house.. in his bedroom.. viritually alone as her girlfriend betty was passed out. This guy lives 10 minutes from My apartment. amy is bisexual and was a stripper. amy and betty broke up because they claimed the other was stealing money and clothing. so betty came over last weekend, took her supposedly clothes, and told me this story.. I almost threw her out but I talked to her... after that, I realized she wanted to date Me so we officially started dating... then thursday, she said she wanted to take "street dance lessons" and her class was from 9:30pm - 3am....she came back and said there was a guy committing suidice and the cops wouldn't let her leave.. then she said her truck woudn't start.. so I went down to start it.. got it on the 1st try... I told her to call her instructor.. his number was already programmed into her cell phone...

basically, after I kicked her out, she kept saying how much she loves Me.. she still loves Me...but I felt how she cheated on Me... after that, I found out she did more stuff..(when we were not dating but had a honest truthful open relationship) and never told Me... I think she did the stuff she did out of fear and revenge for the little things I did or didn't do. As of now, I am not sure what to do.. the best thing I can think of is by living separately.. pushing her away from Me... only to be left alone with these thoughts of what she did.. what I did.. all she wants to do is talk about it face to face.. in hopes she will cry and appear to My good side to take her back but all I want is silence.. to let go.. and move on.. just uncertain what I should do... rebuild the pieces or let them go... can I ever trust her again? do I want to? do I want to get revenge on her? do I want to be compassionate, forgive, and move on?


Dude i have resort to quoting an ignorant ass person, snoop dogg said it best, "bitches arn't shit but hoes and tricks" i just had a tricky bitch break up with me a week ago, but you live and you learn.


peace

[AllforUnity]

Snoop Dogg? My God.

[987]

Thank you JTCrace. This post will be in my favorites list forever.

[TriggerFinger]

As far as desires, she helped me in a specific way. I think that there is someone for everyone. The person that makes you gaga for no reason, just makes you stupid almost. It is love I believe. That is what happened. By meeting her and then falling in love with her, it broke my bonds. By accepting my love, no matter how stupid I probably acted let me focus my love and desires toward her. She set me free.
As far as God goes, I don't know how he got there, always was there according to the Bible. And as far as the Bible's legitamacy goes, the proveable things in it have been proven to be true. Some things just need faith to be believed.
Now, I don't think that he is a fucked up asshole. He created us perfect, and then he gave us choice. We ate of the fruit. We screwed ourselves over. But that was the only way for us to love him. If he didn't give us choice and allow us to know the difference of good and evil, then we would be forced to love him. That is not love. Anyway, then there was the crucifiction, which allows us to be forgiven of our sins if we ask. Of course he doesn't want you to be lukewarm. Either hate him or love him. You choose.
Anyway, feel free to make any comments, that goes for anyone.

Let me just say though, I can attest to JTCrace's statements in the first two postings. My mom feels that our family is falling apart due to the fact that everyone of the kids has left home pretty much. I guess that I ripped her fucking throat away. But my desires would have intensified I'm sure if it didn't end. It could have ended no other way.

Thank You!

I have had many problems figuring out y i am a christian and y to believe in Jesus Christ. What u just said in that last post kinda cleared up alot of things i have been thinking about. I always believed their was a god but was'nt sure y i believed or if i did because tahts how ive been raised. What you said tho kind of filled the empty gaps i had in my religious beliefs.
thanx
?............?

[Cylith]

*Comic Book Guy Voice* "Longest thread ever!"

[Luna Galapogos]

I will choke until I swallow...
Choke this infant here before me.
What is this but my reflection?
Who am I to judge and strike you down?

Perhaps he is talking about faith (especially most christian familys) where parents force christianity down their child's throat, forcing them to swallow/this could also be a reference to christians that try to take away peoples choice and make them believe that christianity is the only choice that they are allowed to make


But you're
Pushing and shoving me.
You still love me and you pushit on me.

I was trying not to swallow, I wanted my own opinion, but you pushed it on me, there was nothing I could do but swallow the pill you've been trying to feed me, you still love me because I swallow your choices



Rest your trigger on my finger,
bang my head upon the fault line.
Take care not to make me enter.
'cause if I do we both may disappear.

You're driving me insane with your control, I'm on the fault line, which way should I choose, do I have a choice, don't choose for me-then we wouldn't have made any progress and the fault line would have opened


But you're pushing me,
Shoving me. Pushit on me.

But since your pushing it on me, should I care that I don't have a choice, should I just give in to the shit that you push on me? (whether it is truly shit or not doesn't matter, it is shit if you didn't choose it for yourself)



Slipping back into the gap again.
I'm alive when you're touching me,
Alive when you're shoving me down.

I'm falling back into place, like when I was a child, I felt that I can only be alive believing your every word even if your words aren't the ones that I would choose to believe



But i'd trade it all
For just a little bit of
Piece of mind.

I want to interpret faith for myself, take the words and learn from them from my own experiences, from my thoughts, this would give me piece of mind, I don't care if my choices kill me and yours keep me alive, I just want piece of mind-just a little



Put me somewhere I don't wanna be.
Seeing someplace I don't wanna see.
Never wanna see that place again.

Your still trying to make up my mind, make my choices for me, trying to steal my piece of mind, but I don't want that, I never want to follow blindly again, I have my own mind to decide what I want, I see the light for myself, I don't want to see the darkness of not being able to choose



Saw that gap again today
As you were begging me to stay.
Managed to push myself away,
And you, as well.

I have finally made a stand for the things I believe (perhaps late teens or so-in some cases 30s or whatever) I pushed myself away from the faultline which in turn pushed the parent(s) away as well



If, when I say I may fade like a sigh if I stay,
You minimize my movement anyway,
I must persuade you another way.

I made a stand, but that was not enough, I tried to convince you that I would fade away if I staid on the faultline, but you don't want to let me go, I must persuade you another way



There's no love in fear.

You can't have a true relationship with Jesus if you are in fear of your parents, you must come to your own opinions and beliefs based on research of the Bible and reference books and so on


Staring down the hole again.
Hands upon my back again.
Survival is my only friend.
Terrified of what may come.

This whole time you have been terrified that your mom might be right, you're scared that hell is on its way for you, but piece of mind is waiting so I must survive, I will not slip into that hole, I don't care if I'm wrong, I will come to God on the terms that I believe he set forth, I believe these terms because that is the way I interpreted them from his word, and he will accept me because I had faith and a relationship/ even if I have doubt that I'm wrong because my thoughts disagree with what I have always been taught



Just remember I will always love you,
Even as I tear your fucking throat away.
But it will end no other way

I love you, I know that you meant well, but I have to rip your fucking throat away or you will keep on telling me what to believe, it will end no other way than to disregard what the parent has always told you and then have the child decide what they want to believe (a lot of times a lot of the beliefs base themselves on the things that the parent(s) believed)


This is an interpretation, possibly what TOOL was thinking, possibly not. It is apparent that they have many songs with religious underpinnings, so it would not be surprising if this had something to do with their thoughts.

P.S. not all christians are the way I described them above. I am a christian and I believe in choice, I will tell you what I believe, but I will not tell you to believe what I believe, unless you think that it is the choice that you want to make

[JTCrace]

A unique, interesting, creative post. See what you think of this:

You mentioned the word belief about 15 or 16 times in your post. What is a belief? And why did the liner notes to Aenima say something to the effect that "beliefs are dangerous, they prevent a mind from functioning, a non-functioning mind is clinically dead?"

A belief is in its essence is a "not-know." For instance, I could say, "I believe your name is Jason." But then I may actually communicate with you, and you may say, "Hi, my name is Jason." Then you have truthfully confirmed my belief. Now I KNOW that your name is Jason. Or you could say, "Hi, my name is Bob." Now my treasured belief has been destroyed.

I believe that beliefs are unavoidable. They may even be necessary to a certain extent. However, I must be prepared at any moment in time to replace my beliefs with knowledge. The liner notes didn't say, "Reject beliefs." They merely said, "Beliefs are dangerous." Meaning that one must be very, very careful with one's "not-know"s.

Beliefs and knowledge are two completely separate things. Knowledge implies observation, experience, confirmation, confidence, consistency, and power. Beliefs imply uncertainty.

I know that people "believe" things because they cannot confront truth. They cannot, for whatever reason, have knowledge. Which brings up another topic: hope.

Hope is a "can't have." For instance I could say, "I hope I can become a professional musician." As long as I am hoping, it will never happen. If I really wanted become a professional musician, I should: 1.) Be a professional musician, which means 2.) Doing what a professional musician does, and then I can 3.) Have what a professional musician has.

[Luna Galapogos]

Well, belief is unavoidable. People choose to believe because they have a need to have something to take the weight off of their shoulders. I probably should've used a different word instead of belief, a word that would have better fit, I just didn't think about it objectively when I wrote the post.

You can't believe in nothing however, you must believe that you shouldn't believe in nothing, thus you are believing. There is no escaping it. Belief permeates our existence. That is why you must be able to choose what to believe and how far to push that belief.

Religous fanatics, or any other fanatic for that matter, perhaps sports. They push it too far. A sport team loses and their fans start committing suicide. You don't believe my religion is right, I'll shoot you in your head and laugh about it.

I suppose that the word has just been pounded into my head so much it just came out. A problem that needs to be rectified. Unfortunately I am a creature of habbit and thus, I will fall prey to such inconviencies. Oh well. Thanks for insight. Do you think that this interpretation has any bearing?

P.S. just as a sidenote- Christianity is a really a system of belief and faith. It is to my understanding that everyone chooses to either believe it something else or no religion at all. The point is that when you have chosen to believe something that you research it and interpret it for what you think it means, not some pastor somewhere, not your parents. They might help you, but you must choose to have your own thoughts or choose to be a sheep.

~Is this a prelude to an unforged thought?~

[numb...]

I am not offering my opinion on the origional post, but I am going to say that it was very insensative and ill timed considering Maynards mother recently passed away.

[Elgyn]

I really liked your initial interpretation, and it has inspired me to learn more of Jungian theories. Something I had already wanted to do, but which I now know I must do.

I, like most others, thought/think pushit is about relationships. I think in all relationships, each person must give a piece of themselves, and there is always fear in this. What will the recipient do with this piece? If they leave, what will become of this piece?

I have yet to reach complete faith in a relationship, so maybe I just don't understand what it is like to be completely in love. I am thinking of, one and one are one.

Pushit can very easily be applied to relationships, because at many times we all feel trapped. We are not free to do as we please if we share a link with another person. Sure it may feel great, but there is usually a nag somewhere along the line.

Just a quick note: I never actually read the lyrics for pushit, but I always thought the words were "Peace of mind", rather than "Piece of mind". I think the implications of this are pretty clear considering what I've previously written. "But I'd trade it all for just a little peace of mind". I'm not saying I'm right about this, it's just what I had always previously assumed.

Anyway, I really loved your interpretation because for me, it applies greatly. I find myself struggling against the umbilical residue of my mother's grasp. Daily I fight to maintain independance from her love. I relate very closely to your post, and you have in turn inspired me, so thankyou.

Frightening how you nailed me with:
Because I generally know what type of crowd listens to TOOL (or at last the portion of the crowd that posts on a TOOL-oriented forum): feminine, intellectual males. Males who imagine themselves as some groundbreaking thinkers who are pushing the envelope at every turn. When in all reality, they are pussies who use their intellectuality as a substitute for life and progress and power.
Scary, but true. I'm afraid to admit it, but I think it is.
What now I wonder...

[JTCrace]

Elgyn, your post makes me very happy. Not because you agreed with me (however my ego did enjoy that) but because of your honesty. I know that a person cannot have real communication with another without understanding. All of these things that I have written about come from first-hand experience. I understand them. I wrote them as a confessional of sorts but also to possibly help other individuals confront their demons (and angels as well for that matter).

I have had some past life recall and I know that I have been around for quite a few lifetimes, aeons maybe. This is important for me because I realize that when I am dealing with my personal mother of this lifetime, that interaction is keying-in many, many other images from past lives. I think that is why it can seem so difficult for a male to establish himself and develop a healthy functioning ego.

If one studies enough spiritual, religious, occultish, etc. ideas one is bound to encounter the idea of "letting go of one's ego." Or, in Maynard's words: "Crucify the ego." What I think many young males do is they take such information and use it to reinforce their insanity. Since they don't really have an "I" of their own, they take this information and make it so that they never will. But one fact remains: one cannot crucify one's ego if one never has an ego in the first place.

Lastly, I like being a feminine intellectual. I much prefer to operate from my feminine soul than from my masculine ego (anyways, my masculine ego is fairly weak, probably always will be). Feminine energy oscillates at a higher frequency, and I like high frequencies. However, I know now that I can be a happier feminine guy when I can balance it out with some masculinity. But, what happens when a person is psychosexually unbalanced leads us into the general nature of the universe.

From an abstract unity, the universe unfolds into a mirrored duality. Hence we see the yin-yang which has four parts (a duality that is mirrored). So if we take any set of opposites, like masculinity and feminity, there is really a mirrored duality there. If one looks, one might see that he or she is: 1.) 25% feminine, 2.) 25% masculine, 3.) 25% both and 4.) 25% neither. The same goes with sexual orientation: 25% homosexual, 25% heterosexual, 25% both, and 25% neither.

However, all sorts of crazy shit happens when all four parts aren't acknowledged. When a person tries to repress (that means saying something isn't there when it really is) any one of the four parts, those repressed parts will find expression in unconscious ways, out of one's awareness. That is why you see forty year old men who decide they want to get a sex change and be a women. Or a woman who decides after 20 years of marriage she is really a lesbian. Or a married couple who after fifteen years of marraige, pretty much become asexual beings. Or look at "best friends," and you'll see some of the most intense love ever. It is essentially undeclared, unconfronted homosexuality. Watch "Y Tu Mama Tambien" and one will know what I am talking about.

So does this mean I should spend a fourth of my day being heterosexual, a fourth of my day being homosexual, a fourth of by day being both, and a fourth of my day being neither? Well, that depends and also brings up the idea of quantity. As far as quantity is concerned, the above 25% formula is true. However, there is the issue of quality. For instance I may find that my "neither" category is of a much higher quality than any of the others. Therefore I will express it more. Or I may find that my heterosexuality is of a much higher quality than all the others, then I will express that more. It is a matter of taste and satisfaction. Unfortunately because of social constructs, it becomes difficult for a person to explore their homosexuality, or even acknowledge that it exists. Consequently, we have far too many repressed homosexuals walking around than we really should.

[ne pleurez pas]

hmm... i i have a feeling that these songs are looked into too deeply and they probably mean something a lot less.... deep? sometimes i think Maynard makes things so obvious that theyre hard to find... if that makes sense. but dont get me wrong, i think the music and the lyrics are brilliant!

[whale I]

I think I understand the Oedipal complex. It is born from our innate desire to access God, which for me is the transcendental mindstate, where we are in a state of just 'be-ing' as you say. for we all access the Perfect Form of the human being, God, at this mind state. More on 'be-ing' later. Anyway, the Oedipal complex is when do not consciously seek and fulfil the mindstate, but allow ourselves to live it through others, and through the unconscious. We do not connect with oneness as an individual. I was trying to anwer the question of why people love hollywood films so much and watching television yet cannot read and cannot properly understand music? Because these things require the imagination, the individual connecting with oneness and accessing these transcendental states (which as I said before, are within all of us) However hollywood films are almost always based on the hero's journey, which is basically an embodiment of the overcoming of personal demons, internal and external which obstruct us from accessing the state of 'individuation' where we are able to control ourselves and access our psychic potential - therefore we stop idealising and start making reality. As you say, the myth is a way of fulfiling or perhaps satisfying the demands of the Oedipal Complex; i.e. living the journey which we should all be living through somebody else.

As you are wise, I shall ask you for advice. Although I think I understand the path and the goal, I am not there. My main concern is the fact that I cannot maintain this state of be-ing, it usually occurs at the night when I am inspired and then in the morning. But it fades away because of internal and external conflicts. The internal ones are mini complexes i.e. a lack of direction, thinking and being in a way that I do not actually want, but also the external forces, for there is much friction between myself and the household, which is the immediate external world for myself, and one which I do not control as I am still at school. One such example is this morning when I was waking m mother came into my room and started saying something about some practical thing I neglected. I had been piecing together a dream in that state of like overlapping between conscious and unconscious mind, and this interrupted it. I recovered some details and it was in fact a dream about the battle and propsective union between the Great Mother archytpe and my own anima. Another thing is that my parents are always pushing me to be mediocre and small minded. They create a lot of ambient noise and such also hampering the attainment of these states. How does this conflict come into the Jungian Analysis?
I have a hunch that the solution comes from a union of the ego and the shadow. Both the Ego and the shadow have 'good' elements, ie those which will help the process of individuation. Perhaps for me the shadow elements are all those ideas and behaviours which others have been forcing upon me, some of which are needed for balance whilst the ego consists of ideas which I have already undersood, which I am attached to almost.
This angst has led to me becoming rather intolerant self-centred, my relationships are only based on what I take out of them not what I give. Perhaps that is an exaggeration but you know what I mean. What I see in you is a genuine desire to teach. This is because you have inhaled reality and oneness, you have processed and fully understood divinity, you are at one with yourself and what the human being is generally and now it is a natural consequence to exhale, to teach. Life is reflected in the breath. this is why Beethoven, Mozart and Bach and others were able to produce, at such a rate, such works of profound beauty. they were impelled to exhale, they had aken in the blessed state and they had discovered how to live it for each moment of their lives. this is why the bible was written, why Siddatha and Jesus were always teaching. Life is reflected in breath, and in the biblical sense (of course from a Jungian, individual standpoiint) the evil path is the path to suffocation.
Anyway, for me this is all idealism, and I am asking you to help me create reality, to fully understand, so that I can utilise the psychic energy in me to overcome the obstacles of the external.

[JTCrace]

A problem can be defined as two opposing purposes. The Oedipus complex is certainly a problem. One one hand you have this deep, consuming love and desire for union with the mother. On the other hand, there is an opposing desire for freedom and autonomy, and along with that comes hate and anger towards the mother. This problem can be boiled down to the struggle between freedom and attachment, and that is a deep and primal polarity. As far as identities are concerned, it is the battle between the boy and the man. A boy is attached, a man is free.

The relationship between the son and the mother is probably one of the most intimate, intense, close relationships a male will ever experience. And overcoming the Oedipal complex does not mean that one should annihilate this closeness. In fact, overcoming the Oedipus Complex is embracing this relationship.

The problem (as with every problem) comes down to a non-confront. A male is unwilling to confront his relationship with his mother. He is unwilling to confront his love, his desire for her. Therefore, he acts it out and dramatizes it. Because it's there whether he_wishes_to_see_it_or_not. And to compensate for his love and desire he develops anger and hatred for her.

The solution lies in a change of percentage. No longer is the male a boy a large percentage of the time. He now acts as a man. And the best thing about being a man: you never have to seek for anyone else's approval but your own.

[Metamorphosis]

you guys are taking the meaning of this song all wrong, please look in a different direction

[salival_sty]

Quirky little note:
To begin with, I am enjoying this thread. I also do think the interpretation that began it is wrong (well-thought-out, potentially enlightening for some, well-intentioned, just wrong for me).
For the interpretation I find "right' for me, keep your eyes peeled for a mutli-part post in the forums for h., 46+2, jimmy and right here. (I'm working on it; give me time. And I'm considering calling it "The big-ass non-mother-fucker-ing post-coital et al experience.)
All of that's just a bit of a tangent. I only wanted to point out that (potential connection for the Jung'uns*) the words spoken just before the beginning of this song are "keine eier," or "no eggs/balls." Castration anxiety seeming more likely, anyone?

*Read that aloud if you didn't get it the first time around.

[Luna Galapogos]

you guys are taking the meaning of this song all wrong, please look in a different direction


If you think that everyone has it wrong, why don't you give us a direction that you think we should follow instead of just putting nothing to the ideas put forth?

[whalethesecond]

yep, i agree. But i am pretty sure my brother's right about the Oedipal complex...these people taking much too practically, getting the father into it (imtheism, im looking at you). In fact, that archetype has not much to do with the general idea of this complex so thats not quite plausible.

Theres something about this thread. JTCrace is almost completely right about everything, im sure, because everything fits. he is one of those intelligent ones that understand almost all their stuff. They all endure unintelligent people that try to contradict them. Some just trashed them (www.geocities.com/noctoadal/), and some people (JTCrace) don't get angry and try to talk with them. Its actually quite funny, because you get this guy saying this dumbass reply and the intelligent replying and trying to explain. I've observed this on this thread. There has been two types of people on this thread. Intelligent (JTCrace, Luna Galapogas, mstajduh, elgyn, whale I etc.) and dumb (metamorphosis, ne pleurez pas etc. etc. etc. etc. etc.), and thankfully the intelligence is talking more, meaning i get my brain fatter and step toward the collective unconscious. Thankyou..talk away!!!!!!!

[imtheism]

right about everything except for the fact that the oedipus complex is a bunch of bullshit. Seriously, talk to any psychologist - or even better, talk to someone who TEACHES psychology. They will tell you the same thing.

Freud did a lot of good in setting the stage for psychology, and was the first person to touch on the id/ego/superego. Then there was also the human defense mechanisms he did (about 95% of the work was actually done by his daughter Anna, but he was overseeing it so he got credit. That happens with nearly all scholastic writing/research in terms of psych). But thats about all he did of worth. The psycho-sexual developement of a child is WAY OFF. GET THIS THRU YOUR FUCKING HEADS PEOPLE HE WAS WRONG. WRONG WRONG WRONG WRONG WRONG.

it doesnt suprise me that being his bro, you would of course suckle on him. Maybe you got fucked up in one of these said stages?

"because it fits" is possibley the worst explanation for something to be right. "Hey... My dick fits in this chick who I just raped... That means I was right in doing so." There is LOTS of shit that fits in with the catholic church and all their beliefs that are FUCKING WRONG. Just because they believe they are true, does not make them true. The same goes for you.

[Ming]

It's good to write in a provocative style, but it comes off as pretentious and arrogant to assume one "knows" the audience through some deeper understanding of himself. To suggest we're all "pussies" hunched over out monitors or whatever will have impact on those who fit the description, but will fall flat on everyone else. This style works well for "psychics" and fortune tellers but really kills philosophical works. Try to engage the audience in such a way as to get them to relate to an idea, but don't try to force it.

Jung, for example, writes in such metaphor that just about anything will fit it. Heidegger was the same way. As one scans over the text the reader will intuit more than comprehend, often mapping entirely different imagery to the ideas. The conceptual architecture is so symmetrical with these writers it resonates ideas and rings of truth. -until of course, one tries to map objective reality to the scheme and finds there's no way to do it.

The Eastern thinkers refined this methodology long ago with the I-ching type stuff. They give you the metaphor, you intuit the truth. Tarot works entirely on this principle (as far as I believe)

[dsl]

I like that theory. I accept it. That may be because I haven't formulated one myself that I like or have deemed even feasible. But I like JTCrace and this theory.

[JTCrace]

There's a nice, useful scale I have come into contact with regarding communications. It goes like this:

1.) Curious
2.) Desired
3.) Enforced
4.) Inhibited
5.) Hidden
6.) Unknown

The most effective communication is the one that can be easily duplicated. With a lot of what I have posted here, I have certainly been enforcing my communications. I know, from my own experiences, that many times getting the other person to duplicate what one is sending across requires force. Because of the obvious limitations of the online-discussion medium of communication, I decided that curiously suggesting, simply desiring a communication wouldn't be as effective as attempting to enforce it. And the response has been surprising. I have had so far two individuals message me personally, claiming to have similar experiences.

My sole purpose for initiating this thread was boredom. This shit excites me. Spiritual exploration is adventurous and fun, although obviously it can be extremely terrorifying at times.

Every male has an Oedipus complex. There is no way to go through countless existences without developing a complex towards "The Mother." In some males, it hardly even warrants attention. However, in other males, it literally can destroy their lives. And it was this latter group I was interested in beginning a real discussion with.

And Ming, your observation that my suggestion that we are all "pussies" will only arouse those that fit the description...wasn't that my point?

[imtheism]

Every male has an Oedipus complex. There is no way to go through countless existences without developing a complex towards "The Mother." In some males, it hardly even warrants attention. However, in other males, it literally can destroy their lives. And it was this latter group I was interested in beginning a real discussion with.


speak for yourself. I personally have never felt any sort of sexual attraction to my mother. I'm sorry for those who have.

[JTCrace]

speak for yourself. I personally have never felt any sort of sexual attraction to my mother. I'm sorry for those who have.

First of all, the Oedipus Complex goes much beyond a mere sexual attraction. Second of all, your constant, consistent denial that you have an Oedipus Complex seems a bit suspicious. Thirdly, thank you for pitying those of us who couragously look within and see things that we are very, very afraid to see. Your pity comforts me in my times of need.

[MoreTool4Nick]

Stacy's Mom has got it going on, MILTF!!!!!!

[Glass Onion]

Stacy's Mom has got it going on, MILTF!!!!!!

Is'nt it MILF? American Pie?

[JTCrace]

Mother

Mother, do you think they'll drop the bomb?
Mother, do you think they'll like the song?
Mother, do you think they'll try to break my balls?
Ooh ah,
Mother, should I build a wall?

Mother, should I run for president?
Mother, should trust the government?
Mother, will they put in the firing line?
Ooh ah,
Is it just a waste of time?

Hush now baby, baby, don't you cry.
Mamma's gonna make all of your nightmares come true,
Mamma's gonna put all of her fears into you,
Mamma's gonna keep you right here, under her wing.
She won't let you fly, but she might let you sing,
Mamma's gonna keep baby cosy and warm.
Oooh babe, Oooh babe, Oooh babe,
Of course Mamma's gonna help build the wall.

Mother, do you think she's good enough, for me?
Mother, do you think she's dangerous, to me?
Mother, will she tear your little boy apart?
Ooh ah,
Mother, will she break my heart?

Hush now baby, baby, don't you cry.
Mamma's going to check out all your girlfriends for you,
Mamma won't let anyone dirty get through,
Mamma's gonna wait up until you get in.
Mamma will always find out where you've been,
Mamma's gonna keep baby healthy and clean.
Oooh babe, Oooh babe, Oooh babe,
You'll always be baby to me.

Mother, did it need to be so high?

bv Pink Floyd

[findmyself]

Mother

Mother, do you think they'll drop the bomb?
Mother, do you think they'll like the song?
Mother, do you think they'll try to break my balls?
Ooh ah,
Mother, should I build a wall?

Mother, should I run for president?
Mother, should trust the government?
Mother, will they put in the firing line?
Ooh ah,
Is it just a waste of time?

Hush now baby, baby, don't you cry.
Mamma's gonna make all of your nightmares come true,
Mamma's gonna put all of her fears into you,
Mamma's gonna keep you right here, under her wing.
She won't let you fly, but she might let you sing,
Mamma's gonna keep baby cosy and warm.
Oooh babe, Oooh babe, Oooh babe,
Of course Mamma's gonna help build the wall.

Mother, do you think she's good enough, for me?
Mother, do you think she's dangerous, to me?
Mother, will she tear your little boy apart?
Ooh ah,
Mother, will she break my heart?

Hush now baby, baby, don't you cry.
Mamma's going to check out all your girlfriends for you,
Mamma won't let anyone dirty get through,
Mamma's gonna wait up until you get in.
Mamma will always find out where you've been,
Mamma's gonna keep baby healthy and clean.
Oooh babe, Oooh babe, Oooh babe,
You'll always be baby to me.

Mother, did it need to be so high?

bv Pink Floyd

I know exactly what you mean. I have always associated the two songs with the same underlying theme (to me) . I love that song, and I love Pink Floyd, but that doesn't mean that I love my TOOL any less.

[JTCrace]

Actually, I didn't even think about the connection until someone's post about "Stacey's Mom," inspired me to mention this song. But you're right, I agree it does seem to cover, somewhat, the same theme as Pushit.

In my first two posts on this thread, I mentioned both Freudian and Jungian psychological interpretations of the Oedipus Complex. Jung interpreted the myth very generally and abstactly. These two songs, Pushit by TOOL and Mother by Pink Floyd, also both seem to be intepreting the same thing in an abstract way.

What can, "The Mother," represent? What can hide in her shadow? What acts to protect a person, keep him safe, comfortable, complacent--all the while beneath his awareness level? I think that, really, that is what these songs are exploring. I am led to believe there is a bit of the personal mother in each one, but more so, they are referring to, "The Mother."

She is the drugs you take to dull the pain of beingness;
she is the girlfriend you have to protect you from being alone;
she is the governement that protects you from knowing too much;
she is the friend that holds your hand, all the while holding you back;
she is the books you read to stop you from being frictional;
she is the lies you lie, to keep you from being your own man.
She is to be fucked, killed, worshipped, satiated, loved, abhored, and befriended.

[findmyself]

Actually, I didn't even think about the connection until someone's post about "Stacey's Mom," inspired me to mention this song. But you're right, I agree it does seem to cover, somewhat, the same theme as Pushit.

In my first two posts on this thread, I mentioned both Freudian and Jungian psychological interpretations of the Oedipus Complex. Jung interpreted the myth very generally and abstactly. These two songs, Pushit by TOOL and Mother by Pink Floyd, also both seem to be intepreting the same thing in an abstract way.

What can, "The Mother," represent? What can hide in her shadow? What acts to protect a person, keep him safe, comfortable, complacent--all the while beneath his awareness level? I think that, really, that is what these songs are exploring. I am led to believe there is a bit of the personal mother in each one, but more so, they are referring to, "The Mother."

She is the drugs you take to dull the pain of beingness;
she is the girlfriend you have to protect you from being alone;
she is the governement that protects you from knowing too much;
she is the friend that holds your hand, all the while holding you back;
she is the books you read to stop you from being frictional;
she is the lies you lie, to keep you from being your own man.
She is to be fucked, killed, worshipped, satiated, loved, abhored, and befriended.


I can understand how she could represent those things. But i think that the mother could be a mother, his mother perhaps and he is mad at her for not telling him the truth, if there is such a thing, about all the questions he asks her in the song. I have learned/decided that if my child were to ask me those same questions i would tell thim to answer them for him/her self and then i would tell them my point of view. Also I feel as though the artists are both at conflict with themselves and mother could be their own self conscience and they are asking themselves, "why didn't I listen to y0u in the first place?" as opposed to what society might try to form in their minds.

[findmyself]

also I think that society is who is trying to comfort them (order, rules regulations) and they prolly are searching for somethign more individual to them toprovide copmfort. For me, that is informing myself, in that I trust what I can think up as opposed to what people tell me.

[paraflux]

Well, belief is unavoidable. People choose to believe because they have a need to have something to take the weight off of their shoulders. I probably should've used a different word instead of belief, a word that would have better fit, I just didn't think about it objectively when I wrote the post.

You can't believe in nothing however, you must believe that you shouldn't believe in nothing, thus you are believing. There is no escaping it. Belief permeates our existence. That is why you must be able to choose what to believe and how far to push that belief.

Religous fanatics, or any other fanatic for that matter, perhaps sports. They push it too far. A sport team loses and their fans start committing suicide. You don't believe my religion is right, I'll shoot you in your head and laugh about it.

I suppose that the word has just been pounded into my head so much it just came out. A problem that needs to be rectified. Unfortunately I am a creature of habbit and thus, I will fall prey to such inconviencies. Oh well. Thanks for insight. Do you think that this interpretation has any bearing?

P.S. just as a sidenote- Christianity is a really a system of belief and faith. It is to my understanding that everyone chooses to either believe it something else or no religion at all. The point is that when you have chosen to believe something that you research it and interpret it for what you think it means, not some pastor somewhere, not your parents. They might help you, but you must choose to have your own thoughts or choose to be a sheep.

~Is this a prelude to an unforged thought?~

Belief is not unavoidable. You can tell me that it is, you can give analogies like when I flip on a light switch I "believe" it will come on, when I turn my key in my car I "believe" the ignition will turn over, etc. But come on. Let me explain about the beliefs being dangerous, turning minds into non-functioning mode.
For a long, long time, people believed the Earth was flat. Nay, they KNEW it. It was truth. Ask anyone in this era what the truth is and they will tell you the Earth is flat. That belief was squashed when it was determined that the Earth was round and we revolved around the sun. Was the belief "wrong?" No. It worked for those people, so it was right for them. But the struggle it took for the new information to become knowledge was monumental. Galileo lost his life over it. People have their "truths" and their "beliefs" and when those beliefs are challenged, they get defensive because no one wants to admit they were wrong and no one wants the established walls of thought to come crashing down around them and they have to start over. Beliefs are very quickly followed by complacency. If I believe in a God who washes away all my sins, etc., do I still look for growth? Not the christians I know. They base life around their principles which are fallible, and defend those till the bitter end. More time is spent defending these walls than expanding them. Expansion is dangerous, says the christian, because we are but servants of God who can never ever fathom His will or His plan. Fuck that. I am made in His image. I have the inner being Paul speaks to the Corinthians about. It is not only possible, but necessary to accept responsibility that comes with the birthright of being made in His image. Our responsibility is to progression. In many countless cases in humans history, progression has been blocked by people holding onto beliefs. Wars have been fought over religion and belief.
When I believe in nothing, I hold no preconceived notions about anything. I live off of my experiential knowledge. Faith is defined in the Bible as "the hope of things unseen." But what happens once you see those things? Do you still need to hope in them? Hell, no. I have direct knowledge of those things and hope, faith in them is not necessary. It is in this way that beliefs block progression. If you have no beliefs, and live off of knowledge and a desire for more experience, progression is at your fingertips.

[Luna Galapogos]

Belief is not unavoidable. You can tell me that it is, you can give analogies like when I flip on a light switch I "believe" it will come on, when I turn my key in my car I "believe" the ignition will turn over, etc. But come on. Let me explain about the beliefs being dangerous, turning minds into non-functioning mode.
For a long, long time, people believed the Earth was flat. Nay, they KNEW it. It was truth. Ask anyone in this era what the truth is and they will tell you the Earth is flat. That belief was squashed when it was determined that the Earth was round and we revolved around the sun. Was the belief "wrong?" No. It worked for those people, so it was right for them. But the struggle it took for the new information to become knowledge was monumental. Galileo lost his life over it. People have their "truths" and their "beliefs" and when those beliefs are challenged, they get defensive because no one wants to admit they were wrong and no one wants the established walls of thought to come crashing down around them and they have to start over. Beliefs are very quickly followed by complacency. If I believe in a God who washes away all my sins, etc., do I still look for growth? Not the christians I know. They base life around their principles which are fallible, and defend those till the bitter end. More time is spent defending these walls than expanding them. Expansion is dangerous, says the christian, because we are but servants of God who can never ever fathom His will or His plan. Fuck that. I am made in His image. I have the inner being Paul speaks to the Corinthians about. It is not only possible, but necessary to accept responsibility that comes with the birthright of being made in His image. Our responsibility is to progression. In many countless cases in humans history, progression has been blocked by people holding onto beliefs. Wars have been fought over religion and belief.
When I believe in nothing, I hold no preconceived notions about anything. I live off of my experiential knowledge. Faith is defined in the Bible as "the hope of things unseen." But what happens once you see those things? Do you still need to hope in them? Hell, no. I have direct knowledge of those things and hope, faith in them is not necessary. It is in this way that beliefs block progression. If you have no beliefs, and live off of knowledge and a desire for more experience, progression is at your fingertips.


I understand completely what you mean. That is the problem with most that believe. I agree actually. But, I am a christian, and I do seek progression. I do not think that what I currently know about the world around me and God is all there is to know. I know that if I was to solely defend the things that I currently know, I would be a fool. Progression the only way, we are not just puppets of God that sit here as blind little servants. That was not the reason we were created. I hate the fact that nearly every christian has their nose up to everyone that disagrees with them. We were created in his image, with desire, with the need for knowledge. God would not cut off our circulation. At least, that is what I think. But hey, I may be wrong, I am not infallible, I just believe what I think is right. God and Progression equate for me.

[INNER_STRUGGLE]

The above has been very interesting, I must say. But my interpretation of Pushit works well for me...

I see it as a man struggling with his two sides, survival and compassion. The gap is the void which must be crossed in order to pass from this hellish place to the brighter, higher ground where the race will go if we choose to evolve.

1) Choke this infant here before me
Whatever part of the race that refuses to realize our potential, whatever part of the race that refuses to grow up and instead chooses to remain infantile, the speaker will choke (metaphorically, of course, meaning he will do nothing to stop the death that will consume that part of the race). It is necessary, but this is what conflicts with the speaker's sense of compassion.

2) What is this but my reflection
The part of the race that refuses to recognize will still be a part of the race at this point, therefore a reflection of the speaker in the sense we are all reflections off of each other.

3) Who am I to judge just like you do
A question, posed to himself, describing the conflict.

4) Pushin me, shovin me down
Our littlest actions will affect everyone in the world. The group that continues to push after greed, lust, other physical things affect those who want to ascend spiritually. It drags us down.

5) Rest your trigger on my finger/bang my head upon the faultline
A dig at those unwilling to see their light, its almost as if they want the speaker to put them out of their misery, or they push the speaker to the point where he feels he is being pushed into a corner and needs to be rid of these people.

6) Put me somewhere I don't wanna be. Seeing someplace I don't want to see. Never wanna see that place again.
This is a miserable whining voice. The speaker is looking at the place where the people are pulling him, or pushing him, trying to keep him. He hates it. There is no reason to stay here when he knows the other side of the gap holds so many pleasures and the absence of fear and pain.

7) When I say I might fade like a sigh if I stay/You minimize my movements anyway/I must persuade you another way
The speaker tells the group that he will wither away if he stays here, but they dont care. They are selfish. They keep him down anyway. So therefore, he must persuade them another way, hence all the choking and ripping of throats.

8) There is no love in fear
This is the culminating factor!! He is compassionate towards those of the race that will not make it, but understands that they do not feel love. They only fear, and fear is what drives greed and other aspects of the race that we currently possess.

9) Staring down the hole again. Hands upon my back again.
Another reference to how he feels when being pushed around.

10) I will always love you as I throw your fucking throat away/It will end no other way...
This separation is done out of love, the speaker finds. To love the race, he has to take his part in helping those who want to evolve instead of worrying about the ones who dont. We will kill those who arent ready with tears in our eyes. We love them, but we also love life, and it is necessary to do this in order for life to continue.

paraflux, your views are very detalied and exciting I agree with your point of view. I agree, but not with all of it.

[paraflux]

I understand completely what you mean. That is the problem with most that believe. I agree actually. But, I am a christian, and I do seek progression. I do not think that what I currently know about the world around me and God is all there is to know. I know that if I was to solely defend the things that I currently know, I would be a fool. Progression the only way, we are not just puppets of God that sit here as blind little servants. That was not the reason we were created. I hate the fact that nearly every christian has their nose up to everyone that disagrees with them. We were created in his image, with desire, with the need for knowledge. God would not cut off our circulation. At least, that is what I think. But hey, I may be wrong, I am not infallible, I just believe what I think is right. God and Progression equate for me.

Notice I didnt say that belief was wrong necessarily. For most people it is a stepping stone to divine experience and direct knowledge. Hell, I went through it. I dont knock beliefs for the stepping stone they are, but rather for the bonds they ensnare minds with if the mind isnt cautious and always looking. Sounds like you are using belief for the purpose of growth, which I cannot blame you for at all.

[slave2addictions]

I would first like to say that noone is wrong about what the song means, because they are for you to inturpret. That's why maynard doesn't release all lyrics or at least not right away, like in the cd jacket or something.

MY OPINION on the song is that is definatly written and a parental relationship theme. But also written from a very different point of view than most of you have been guessing at. The speaker is the parent.....DUH

what are you but my reflection. Duh

Who am i to judge or strike you down...i have bred you , learned you, guided you and you still do wrong.

He speaks almost constantly of all the restrictions put on the parent by the child, of the pains and frustrations a child can cause with the pushing of bounderies, rules....

of the undeniable urge to smack the shi* out of those little brats and say sit down and shut up....most people have love for the child that far overpowers the urge, but it is still in everyone's mind that has been with a child for more that a 24 hr period.

I wish i could expand on my opinion, but i am posting at work between my boss walking through

[whalethesecond]

right about everything except for the fact that the oedipus complex is a bunch of bullshit. Seriously, talk to any psychologist - or even better, talk to someone who TEACHES psychology. They will tell you the same thing.

Freud did a lot of good in setting the stage for psychology, and was the first person to touch on the id/ego/superego. Then there was also the human defense mechanisms he did (about 95% of the work was actually done by his daughter Anna, but he was overseeing it so he got credit. That happens with nearly all scholastic writing/research in terms of psych). But thats about all he did of worth. The psycho-sexual developement of a child is WAY OFF. GET THIS THRU YOUR FUCKING HEADS PEOPLE HE WAS WRONG. WRONG WRONG WRONG WRONG WRONG.

it doesnt suprise me that being his bro, you would of course suckle on him. Maybe you got fucked up in one of these said stages?

"because it fits" is possibley the worst explanation for something to be right. "Hey... My dick fits in this chick who I just raped... That means I was right in doing so." There is LOTS of shit that fits in with the catholic church and all their beliefs that are FUCKING WRONG. Just because they believe they are true, does not make them true. The same goes for you.

now, now, children, no need to turn into a psychobitch.

OK...The reason why things like the Oedipal complex among many other Freudian and Jungian theorems, have been denied by psychologists is not because they've been proved wrong but moreso not proved right. I've heard enough to be convinced that in fact this is about a connection between mother and son

[whalethesecond]

not only a connection but the fact that the son recognises divinity not though his own anima, but his mother, therefore abolishing ego

[DistortedxUnity]

Of course another reason why some of you may reject my interpretation is because you have repressed Oedipal desires yourself. No? Well, I am sorry to say, but everyone has them, so, 'fess up!


Umm... I don't fully agree with you, either. I'm really intrigued by the thought you put into it, but I don't think it's entirely true to the song. Just my opinion. Oh, and I'm a girl, so I don't have the whole mother-fucking complex. :)

DistortedxUnity

[findmyself]

"because it fits" is possibley the worst explanation for something to be right. "Hey... My dick fits in this chick who I just raped... That means I was right in doing so." There is LOTS of shit that fits in with the catholic church and all their beliefs that are FUCKING WRONG. Just because they believe they are true, does not make them true. The same goes for you.

I sort of disagree. I think that just because someone believes it, does not make it true, but just because it isn't true, doesn't mean that it is wrong. Just because someone believes something and you don't, doesn't make it wrong either. If something works for someone, and thats what they want, love ect., then it is right for them. It doesn't really matter if it is right for you or to you, as long as that someone is happy with it, and it works for them, and as long as they don't try to impose their beliefs upon you, then there is nothing wrong with it, IMO.

[tuniabdoh]

If I was best friends with my dad when I was little and my mom hated him and they just lived like roommates, would that make me not want to bang my mom. I don't think that I do. I don't have sexual thoughts about her, and I've had sex with several females. I was never emotionally attached to them, though. Actually the only chick I have strong feelings for, is this shy christian girl, who is far too "moral" for her own good and who's idea of a relationship, is I buy shit for her, but we don't have sex.

[JTCrace]

Recently I've been coming into contact more and more with the Mother archetype. At first, upon my initial interactions with the archetype, I saw her merely as an empty symbol. But now I am beginning to see her as a living entity. This insight came about as I looked deeper into my relations with my personal mother.

I realized I was still very much affected my relationship with my mother. All this supposed progress I had made seemed to be null. I still felt angry, hateful, furious, violent and abusive towards her. Upon further examination, I began to see something behind her. Actually, I saw something behind the interactions that had occured over all these years between me and my personal mother. It seemed as if there were some third party involved; another being with its own interests and needs. Though I never ran any specific processes (for more info on processing, see my post "Scientology--The Real Fucking Thing" in the Anema section), I briefly saw that my mother and I were living out some sort of script. It looked almost like a play. So, it seems at some point both my mother and I made high-level agreements with each other to act out this play, with the Mother Archetype being some sort of Cosmic director. So this myth is real. It's a play I am a player.

The question now is do I have a choice? Am I somehow obligated to act this out? In the Old Testament, when the Jews acted against their covenant (agreement) God punished them. Is that what has been happening to me? It looks that way because every time I rage against the Mother, manifesting as rage against my personal mother, I get punished. In the future I plan on running specific processes to resolve this conflict.

*To DistortedxUnity*--If one looked, one might find that one has lived out previous existences. If one finds this to be true, one might also find that one has lived as both male and female at times. If one finds that one has lived as a male, one might find that one still possesses persisting decisions, postulates, considerations from a male point of view that have carried over to the present lifetime. Note: I never said anything about you.

*To tuniabdoh* -- Are you asking my opinion and/or analysis?

[tuniabdoh]

Yeah, if you have the time. You seem to know alot about Freud and Jung (at least more than I do). Even if you can't or don't have the time, thanks for taking the time to post all of this.

[JTCrace]

Tuniabdoh:

To get the right answers, it takes asking the right questions. And asking the right questions has everything to do with using the right words. Here are some questions that might yield some interesting answers. A strong word of warning: these questions can stir up some shit in your psyche. You may become very overwhelmed, and end up more confused than when you began. Of course there is also the very real possibility that after running these out for a while you may find yourself feeling better than you ever had your entire life. You may find that it has opened you up to life in new and exciting ways.

Advice: Run each question out until it feels clean to you. Be sure and acknowledge when you have insights, cognitions, realizations, etc. Always refer to yourself in the second person "you." Set aside a specific time and space to do these. Try and not ruminate about this shit all of the time.

General questions:
1.) Imagine the Ideal Positive Mother and the Ideal Negative Mother. Then, compare your mother to these ideals. Note: there is a very fine line between the two ideals. Do the same thing with the "Father."
2.) What did your mother/father do that you wish she/he hadn't done?
3.) What did your mother/father not do that you wish she/he had done?
4.) Locate specific viewpoints concerning females/males in general. How might your mother/father have shaped these viewpoints?
5.) Was there ever any competition beween you and your father for your mother's attention?

Specific questions (be very careful with these):
1.) Locate a traumatic incident concerning you, your father and/or your mother. Look at the incident from as many viewpoints as possible (your viewpoint, your mother's, father's, etc). How did this make you feel? Note: it's important to find the specific emotional tones present, like fear, apathy, hatred, anger, grief, rage, hostility, anxiety, confusion, spiritual/physical death. What kind of decisions/solutions might have been made at this time? Are these decision/solutions still present?
2.) Spot any unconscious/hidden/inhibited/enforced/desired/curious communications made between you<-->yourself/you<-->mother/you<-->your father/your mother<-->your father (Run each type separately. For instance, the first question would be: Spot any unconscious communications between you and yourself)
3.) Imagine yourself being free to communicate anything you wanted to yourself and to your father and mother.

Let me know how it goes!

JTCrace

[AllforUnity]

lt's too lucid.

[crazypsycho6666]

ohhhhh. i never thought of the song like that.

[Luna Galapogos]

Most of those questions don't seem to apply to me. Maybe they do. Perhaps a way more objective viewpoint is needed. I'm probably cloudy, I should grab a squegee. Thanks for the questions, I don't know if they would relate to everyone though.

[JTCrace]

Theoretically, one should be able to naturally feel what one needs, spiritually or otherwise. Unfortunately, people can rarely see what it is they need to do to grow. This has to do with something I call "active identification." If someone is actively identifying with something or some event, they will be blind to that particular area. Example: when my body requires nutrients I might say, "I am hungry." Why wouldn't say, "My body needs food." This would be because I am "actively identifying" with my body. I cannot see that I HAVE a body because I am too busy BEING a body.

In regards to the subject of this thread, one might not see that one HAS the Oedipus Complex because one is too busy BEING the Oedipus Complex. It's really a matter of space. That's why a third party, such as a psychologist or loving friend, can be extremely beneficial. They can easily see things you cannot because they are not identifying with the things that you seem to be. They can then coax you into a different space to help you look at and know yourself in a different manner.

To tie this into a larger perspective, I have mentioned over and over again the so-called "anatta doctrine" or "Not-I doctrine" that Siddhartha Gotama came up with. This is exactly what I am referring to above. If one could adopt this anatta doctrine thoroughly, then one could learn to see one's self from larger and larger spaces. All it takes is spotting phenomenon and dis-identifying one's self with it. It helps to hold a loving attitude as one learns to really employ the anatta doctrine. Shit, why not?

I'm done trying to enforce communications on this thread. It was probably unethical of me to even suggest that anyone suffered from the so-called "Oedipus Complex" (is anyone else getting fucking sick of that phrase?). I'd like to permeate a more curious tone with my communcations. I would just like to know what others think, feel, know about what's being written. Everything I have said here is my truth. I leave your truth to you.

[AllforUnity]

That's alot.

[whalethesecond]

i get blown away by all this. I've gotten JT Crace's explaination butthe context escapes me, when he elaborates. I can't wait until my brain develops fully

[Luna Galapogos]

It makes a lot of sense. I always ask people to answer questions with me and sometimes for me because I know that they are objective while I am not. I know that I can not see me for me because I am too busy trying to understand who I am, while it is easy for others to answers questions for me because they see who I am and do not need to sort through conflicting hopes and realities that I possess.
I think this fits in, in part, with an idea that I have that denial is the first of human reactions.

"This is not me, I'm not mechanical." -Marilyn Manson

[AllforUnity]

That is historical.

[whalethesecond]

Freud depresses me
Jung makes me happy

[TheTemperamentalGoat]

Do females never have any of these ego problems, or is there a different version for both sexes? Just curious.

Oh, and I like your interpretation JTGrace, but I've always tended to see the song more as Paraflux described it, rather than the whole mother fucking angle. And hey, since you (JTGrace) believe so strongly in the Jungian Theory, what do you think the consequences for the children of same sex marriages are going to be in terms of the Oedipus Complex? Are they going to revere both their mothers as the Mother Archetype, as you put it, or perhaps place one of the mothers into the father role? And what about children with two fathers, with no true female presence in their childhood at all? Bet Jung never counted on that wildcard in his theory...

[dancingflame]

yesterday i listened to the song for the thousands or so time in my life and i suddenly had an idea....

Pushit= push shit = shittin

I will choke until I swallow...
Choke this infant here before me.

you eat, the food is an infant- when its grown up it becomes shit

What is this but my reflection?
Who am I to judge and strike you down?

ok? you shit and reflect about it- shit = reflection of food

But you're
Pushing and shoving me.
You still love me and you pushit on me.

should be as obvious- c`mon you push the shit- and you love the food

Rest your trigger on my finger,
bang my head upon the fault line.
Take care not to make me enter.
'cause if I do we both may disappear.


youcant hold up the feeling that you have to shit- sooner or later you`ll have to
(now you have to imagine the "mr.hanky"-perspective- what I mean is the shit sings this parts)

But you're pushing me,
Shoving me. Pushit on me.

But i'd trade it all
For just a little bit of
Piece of mind.

you know the feeling when you either have to shit really hard- but you cant cuz theres no toilet around or something

Put me somewhere I don't wanna be.
Seeing someplace I don't wanna see.
Never wanna see that place again.

now the piece opf shit drops into the toilet (listen to the music- like flushing down something)


Saw that gap again today
As you were begging me to stay.
Managed to push myself away,
And you, as well.


If, when I say I may fade like a sigh if I stay,
You minimize my movement anyway,
I must persuade you another way.


if you try to hold up the shit you can hardly move as freely as you can when not in that urge :)

There's no love in fear.

Staring down the (ass)hole again. - mr.hanky`s perspective again- he`s afraid to be dropped in the cold & ugly toilet again- he knows the gam


Hands upon my back again.
Survival is my only friend.
Terrified of what may come.

terrified- cuz it is in the "gap" between the anal-inside and the "toilet"outside

Just remember I will always love you,
Even as I tear your fucking throat away.
But it will end no other way.


dont take it too serious - just another stupid funny interpretation + xcuse ma stupidd english

[JTCrace]

To The TemperamentalGoat:

If you are really interested in my thoughts, I will gladly respond. Let me know.

[Cyanide ChrYst]

I hope this doesnt piss off the creator of this stupid thread!!

YOU ARE OVERANALYTICAL; HE FUCKING WROTE THAT SONG ON DEXTROMETHORPHAN.

Jesus christ, nobody learns anything from my presence.

[Al-Co.]

I must confess that I didn't read all of the above submissions (as happy coincidence would have it, no more than a second or two after printing that bracket, my watch beeped to tell me it's about 4 am) and, to be frank and honest, I didn't want to wade through a lot of comments similar to this one;

YOU ARE OVERANALYTICAL; HE FUCKING WROTE THAT SONG ON DEXTROMETHORPHAN.

(No offence Cyanide Christ:)

But I just wanted to say that I think that your interpretation fits the description of the song perfectly, but this thread shows that (like mythology) ideas can be very multi-faceted by way of symbology (even shitty one's like that of DancingFlame). And although you seem to have hit the nail on the head (in my opinion), perhaps Maynard wrote the song on Dextromethorphan after all, and the whole thing was an act of semi-unconscous insight that just happened to coincide with Jung's theories (which, really, should only serve to reinforce them), regardless of the fact that he had no idea what any of the symbology could possibly behold, and for no other reason than an ironic lack of a connection with reality.

I don't want to go all soppy and say stuff like "that's just the beauty of art, I suppose", but I think I just did, and fuck it, why not, it's pretty much my point (except to say that this reinfoces my suspision that all things are unified, and if examined properly, any answer can be found by asking any question, as long as you are prepared to disregard language for - possibly - the majority of answers that you may be seeking).

I like that I know a bit more about the theories of Freud and Jung now though, thanks for that:)

P.S. I shall return and read more of my predecessors when dawn isn't so near (I love working nights, I really do).

Alex (Al-Co,) Downs

[CyberWolf]

Well I must say this has to be one of the most thought out interpretations of a song I've run across. I don't really agree though, as I've had no experience of being attracted to my own mother (other peoples mothers maybe.. XD) but not my own.. Cept.. well.. When I was like, 4 I asked my mom to marry me, but there was nothing sexual about it really.. o.o. Damn you XD

I also can't really relate to this idea because I'm not really familar with these philosphers you're speaking of. Again, very well thoughtout belief though.

[umbilicalchemist]

This is an excellent interpration of the song.
I don't give a fuck if He had these intentions,
that's excellent.-

I am checking Orestes also.

[JTCrace]

It's been a very long time since I first initiated this thread. Like probably many before me, I am just too fucking lazy to go back and re-read it all. But, the things that I wrote were true to me at the time. I think a lot of it still remains just as true, but others portions may have turned out to be lies. But, here are some other ideas, opinions, cognitions concerning the subject at hand (the so-called Oedipus complex)...

There are two facets of reality: the specifics and the generalities; or the Particulars and the Universals. A wonderful writer by the name of Max Sandor provided a great illustration of the relationship between them. First, imagine an electro-magnetic field--it's difficult, I know, because it's invisible--but imagine it being there in space, and imagine it having a specific structure. Next, imagine slowly throwing charged particles at the field. Eventually, we will be able to observe it's structure; it will have substance, solidity, mass, etc. Where before it was "there" but we could not observe it. Now the field is still "there" but we can observe it.

The field is analogous to the Archetypes. The charged particles are analogous to the particulars of reality--this is the level of the physical universe. So again, there is the Mother Archetype. And then there is your mother.

I was doing an exercise once concerning the deeper layers of thought. I was only mildly successful but I came out of it with a whole new perspective on reality. I saw that what we think of as "real" may not be as real as we think. For a split second I caught a glimpse of Plato's Ideas. I saw that physical reality was only a heavy, massive, solid distortion of Thought. This realm of thought is the place of archetypes. These are the ideas that create this physical reality that is so heavy, and so there and so in the fucking way! Geoffrey Filbert wrote that the physical universe is an overly-literal, super-dramatization of Life. Life is really not here, this is simply where we've put it. And we've put it here so long that we are all thoroughly convinced that all we are are protons, electrons, and neutrons.

So what the hell does this have to do with a rock-n-roll tune? It's important to KNOW (be AWARE of) that your mother did not create YOU (nor did any other being). YOU create yourself. This may be the essence of Maynard's lyrics.

Oh, and as far as looking at Orestes in light of a mother/son relationship? APC lyrics are so intuitive and emotional (and so Yin) it can be very difficult to try and analyze them too rationally, in my opinion at least. But "Umbilicalchemist," you may be on to something--let me know what you come up with!

[whalethesecond]

i always did find a perfect circle lyrics to be much closer to the surface, more vulnerable than Tool, thus i can relate to it better.

[intoxic8]

wow ok, dunno if ny1 reads this thread but i found it very insightful.

i never thought of pushit as an oedipal drama.
i always thought of it of a man having to leave someone he loves , because he is desctructive in nature, or because staying would be catastrophic. so he is torn.
but now i c the song does fit perfectly with the oedipus complex.
i'm not saying maynard wrote that, but it seems to work for me as a meaning and mood for the song, especially the end bit when he must kill his mother to get rid of her, even though he will always love her.

also it ties up very much with Orestes, i tink someone mentioned the mth already so no need to say again.
very very cool thread,
had a delightful religious spat also ... sexy

[whalethesecond]

i always thought of it of a man having to leave someone he loves , because he is desctructive in nature, or because staying would be catastrophic. so he is torn.

well thats loosely what the oedipal complex is, except for the whole Great Mother archetype thing, and ego loss etc.

[Stalkz]

I haven't read this thread yet, except the first post (I'm going to afterwards) I just wanted to say this.

I hate Frued, and I always have. He's not a genius, or deserving of any accolades. He's just a poorly developed individual who really wanted to fuck his mom and thinks all men do. Everything goes back to fucking your mom. I never wanted to fuck my mom, and my taste in women relates to my mother in no way. I love my mom, but I couldn't stand being with another woman like her.

[Raev'n]

Hw didn't just talk about fucking his mum. He used it as a basis for most human emotions and it DOES make sense. You guys just don't want to admit that yeah you do get those feelings and you have no control over them whatsoever.

[paraflux]

I really, really, have no desire to fuck my mom, and neither did I ever. I would admit it if I did.

[JTCrace]

All I can say is that Freud had something to offer me. Using his discoveries I was able to grow and evolve into someone greater. Is his psychology 100% correct? Hell no. But the world is full of individuals who apprehended some truth and declared it to be the Whole Truth. Does that mean one should immediately disregard someone like Freud? Again, hell no. In such a case it demands more intelligence and lucidity to perceive where he was correct and where he was not.

As I've mentioned before, it seems that Jung had this cosmic purpose in balancing Freud's doctrines. Taken together their psychologies can provide one powerful TOOL. I find that the most help I received was in reading authors who themselves combined both Freudian and Jungian thought. One great example is "Castration and Male Rage: The Phallic Wound" by Eugene Monick.

And another thing, if a person is unhealthy in any manner, it is up to that individual person to address his insanity. Not only is overwhelming someone with "truth" indecent, it doesn't really work. I know that I've suggested in the past that every male suffers from the so-called Oedipus complex. That suggestion, I'm afraid, was in error. If a person doesn't perceive the complex, then that's that. Of course, that doesn't necessarily mean they don't suffer from it but until they stepped up and out, they would never know.

I like to say that my Achilles heel has been this really annoying inability to push unconfrontable data out of my perceptual window. I saw these things operating in my space. And at a particular point, I chose to no longer suppress them but to embrace them. I'm glad I did:)

[Skizzo]

The Jungian thoery that is supposidly evident in all of the songs off Aenema seems too right to be wrong?

I'm amazed what you peiced together in this thread, very well done.

I was just wondering if you we're going to go more in depth with the other songs off the CD or should I have my philosophy teacher brush up the class on Jung entirely.

[whalethesecond]

oh man this thread's nostalgic

i remember.. an impressionable 13 year old

[whalethesecond]

yep, i agree. But i am pretty sure my brother's right about the Oedipal complex...these people taking much too practically, getting the father into it (imtheism, im looking at you). In fact, that archetype has not much to do with the general idea of this complex so thats not quite plausible.

Theres something about this thread. JTCrace is almost completely right about everything, im sure, because everything fits. he is one of those intelligent ones that understand almost all their stuff. They all endure unintelligent people that try to contradict them. Some just trashed them (www.geocities.com/noctoadal/), and some people (JTCrace) don't get angry and try to talk with them. Its actually quite funny, because you get this guy saying this dumbass reply and the intelligent replying and trying to explain. I've observed this on this thread. There has been two types of people on this thread. Intelligent (JTCrace, Luna Galapogas, mstajduh, elgyn, whale I etc.) and dumb (metamorphosis, ne pleurez pas etc. etc. etc. etc. etc.), and thankfully the intelligence is talking more, meaning i get my brain fatter and step toward the collective unconscious. Thankyou..talk away!!!!!!!
impressionable 13 year old bahahahahaha

[varg]

I feel strongly about my interpretation, and I can say with somewhat certainty that I believe it is correct. I do not think I ever gave the impression that any other interpretation would be ridiculous, only that I wouldn't believe it.

So, Looque, why don't you take the time and effort to explain why you disbelieve my interpretation to be correct. That is why I began this thread. But as you can notice, everyone can knock my view, but yet nobody gives an interpretation of their own (save Zole). Ya' never know, I may change my mind if I encounter something that makes more sense. Never say never.

Like someone else said: I like the thought you've put into it. But I don't know if I think you're correct. Neither should you, when you think about it.
But it's a cool theory, nonetheless. Good job, man.
Personally I've always thought of the lyrics to "Pushit" as written from the point of view of someone who doesn't really want to get to involved in what it means to fully and truly love another person. Someone who doesn't really want to understand or experience the depths of a relationship.
But that's just my theory. Hope it's wrong. Hope it's all fucking wrong, so we all can keep guessing.

[scaredsquirrel]

This is an excellent interpration of the song.
I don't give a fuck if He had these intentions,
that's excellent.-

I am checking Orestes also.

Oresetes directly references a Greek literature classic, so you'd be better off reading at least a synopsis of that (the Orestia) before you go ahead and whack Jung/Freud on it, although I agree you could do that.

[I Chas I]

I personally not beleive in any of Freuds ideas. I would hope Maynard doesnt either. The whole idea of man sexually loving his mother is crazy. There is a huge differance between the love of a man and his mother and of a man and his wife. I think this song is about Maynard and his feiance breaking up. I would like this song a lot less if I found out that your interpretaion was correct. Sorry.

[maele]

I think that Maynard uses "Pushit" as an insight into mental abuse and the effect it has on people when the abuse is coming from the supposed "closest" people to you, your family... Maynard obviously has had past experiences with mental and maybe physical abuse, but I believe he is using "Pushit" in a relevant way to his own experiences. At the end of the song when he says; "Remember I will always love you as I claw your fucking throat away..." I think that in the begining of the song he speaks of the severity of the situation, then goes into a tranquil state of starting to get over the situation then at the end the whole problem is dug up again and he wants nothing more than to survive it? Hence "Survival is my only friend.." Anyways I ABSOLUTELY LOVE this song and it has actually helped me through my deppresing days of adolesence.... Thank you Maynard....

[Phorty]

i admire your dedication , but i doubt that was his motive for the song.
A very interesting and analytical post though!

[onsMr.Pink]

JTCrace your view on this song is very intresting and inspiring but it seems you are dead set on you accuasation. You believe that this is what it means to you and nothing will change your mind about it (exept your life experiences as you stated before). But just ask yourself this question... Why do you believe all of the things you believe? Is it because what you have learned in your life is the basis for your reasoning behind this song? Then how can you even make an accusation if you dont even know why you believe in your beliefs? Have you found your "self" by elminating everything you have ever been tought, told and influenced by? If so more power too you. But i think you should be a little more flexable for other views of this song. All anyone can base their reasoning on is their life experiences which we all differ from eachother. Besides that i think you have done an exalent job in comming up with a strong interpretation of this song and i see you have put a lot of time into the thought. Please share your ideas with the rest of us as it has become a pleasure.

[identity_theory]

I always thought that this song was mjk talking about how he (or anyone) changed over time.
peace--------------and Goodbye

I gave up on accepting specific meanings to any of these intentionally ambiguous lyrics, but I have to say this idea is the only one I've read on this site that really struck me, especially considering Nards' apparent ego-centric mind....that is the one I quoted, not the mommy sex one.

And what is it the wise men said about dudes that attach themselves to intellectual authority figures (like those freud and jung guys...or maybe that maynard dude) to interpret their world and create security blanket self esteem? Oh, I remember, not a god-damn thing. Oh well, maybe they said something about bloated pretense and the people who copulate with it, you know...sexually...with their moms...

[TEST]

I must say that the rythm of the song is very nice...
it's in 6/8 but meanwhile you can count it like it's a 4/4...
versus the lyrics?...GoDAMN

[Kurac]

Ever dreamed that you had sex with your mother?
I did, and the horrible thing in my dream that it wasnt unnatural and disgusting. But when I woke up, I almost threw up.
I think your interpretation has/if not all meaning that author had in mind.

[Kurac]

...and you theory is FUCKING CORRECT!
LISTEN UP!
Put Aenima Cd, and a very GOOD headphones.
Press track 11, that is PUSHIT.
Go to abouth 4:47 time track right before the "...push me I dont wann stay" part begins.
You can clearly hear an infants voicing that will continue thru this part before Adams solo begins.

[jdstrube]

I think that some ppl on here need to kill their egos. Why can't we all just express our opinions without having to bash on other's. It is completely counterintuitive to what music is all about. You should find your own meaning in it. I respect jtcrace's opinion, I myself do not agree with it, but I do respect it, like I would want someone else to respect my opinion even if they didn't agree with it.

[fretforyourfigure462]

I think we're reading too much into shit.

[philipg]

there's kind of a reason freud is panned by everyone- he was full of shit
i like some of your ideas, you can really take these songs as deep as you want to but that doesnt necessarily mean thats what maynard meant.

i remember watching an old live video from the undertow days, still with paul, and maynard announced the next song as a love song. adam then started playing pushit....

[jdstrube]

i remember watching an old live video from the undertow days, still with paul, and maynard announced the next song as a love song. adam then started playing pushit....

Maynard's also kinda of a smart ass...

[CaduceusVino]

I don't know. While all of this super pyschology stuff is a valid interpretation based on what's there.. I just think that this song is about an abusive relationship and gaining awareness of the true problem with them. The pushing and shoving is the like give and take in a relationship but maynard's word choice is important here. He's saying pushing and shoving. His choice of words is clearly stronger. The relationship is like an addiction. It's really not good for him or her anymore but they get drawn back to the headfuck of it all. They continue despite the adverse consequences. They love one another and want to be together but despite their efforts, it's just not working. Throughout the song he recognizes that the relationship is totally fucked up but he's at that pivotal point where he's realized that it's no good for him but it's time to take action. He says he may fade like a sigh but yet she still wants him to say. He gets that true love isn't about that. True love isn't about being scared to be alone and it's certainly not about what's good for one person in the relationship. He can either get sucked back into the vicious cycle of this back and forth dysfunctional bullshit (this is the part about standing over the gap with hands on his back) because she's pushing him into it or he can stand up and make his move. And clearly the last verse is directed right at her... he loves her but she's done.

[mjkajdcjc]

Maynard's songs are filled with "pseudo-meaningful" lessons and stories. Still, you can't deny the fact that this might be one of the most thought out threads I've ever seen here...

[TEST]

This song was the last one i understood from tool...at least the last one that got under my skin without beeing discomforting...

[whalethesecond]

jeez, i needed to lighten up four years ago

[Ghostwriter]

I have never wanted to have sex with my mother... Kinda creepy...

[mkean]

Maynard sits down at his computer. For some reason today he looks at the Tool-Opinion thread.

"What the hell is this crap?" At this points he either groans loudly or bursts into a fit of laughter.

Now, you're all entitled to your opinion, but I think it's stupid that people think every Tool song has some deep hidden meaning. I mean, yeah, Tool do think of some pretty cool things. Deep, and stuff like that. But who says it has to be complicated? You guys are blowing things way out of proportions here! I mean, the way you put it it sounds like some religious propaganda. In the end, I bet Tool intended this song to be about getting a job as a garbage man. Boy, won't you feel silly then.

*This is mainly aimed at the author of the thread. Also, don't flame me, I'm not trying to insult anyone.*

See? Dancingflame's interpretation is the best. Obviously. And Paraflux's is pretty cool too.

[Bundahead]

Didn't Maynard talk about his "reflection" in the song Brena off the Mer de Noms Album?
Is this a symbol he uses in different songs to reference the same person?
"What is this but my REFLECTION. Who am i to judge or strap u down?" Pushit/Aenima/Tool
"My REFLECTION Wraps and pulls me under healing waters to be Bathed in Brena" Brena/Mer de Noms/APC
Before I even considered this I'd always thought the song was about a relationship going sour.
I think it might be a love song, or better, an "unraveling of a relationship" type love song.

[the midas touch]

Whether or not this is what MJK meant when he wrote this song doesn't matter. JTCrace saw it as this. The same way you look at literature and poetry and analyze and think about it, you do with Tool because the possibility of greater significance is definitely there.
Good interpretation.
There is no 'right' interpretation and you supported your claim with evidence--big up yourself.

[fourty-six & 2]

I think everyone here has amazing insight however, my belief is none of us will ever truely "know" what the artist was inspired by when he wrote this piece. The words & music are so powerful & provokes us to think...I mean really think. Honestly, I don't want to know what was the inspiration behind this song or any of tool's art. All of their gifts (music) mean different things to me & I truely appreciate the amount of care they give each piece.

Personally, I feel that Pushit relates to a relationship that is not good for either person. The gap may be the edge of dispair/depression that may be present because of the self destructive manner in which the "first person" interacts with the other. I do think it could also relate to the disfunctional way our society deals with relationships in general, how self centered & insecure we have all become. At least that is what it this piece means to me.

[Lotus2thrdeye]

And now, an interpretation of the text:

1.) "I will choke until I swallow..." What could he be choking on? The placental fluid? Maynard is fighting against his Oedipal tendencies, he his choking. And he will continue choking until he realizes the situation at hand.

2.) "Choke this infant here before me." Again, another allusion to the womb. Symbolically, he is in the womb, as an infant, and choking. In many ways he has remained an infant. Though he may have physically matured, he has not psychologically matured.

3.) "What is this but my reflection?" All these events are an inner phenomenon. The physical world is acting as a reflection. He is not dealing with his personal mother anymore. He is dealing with his psyche, his psychological reality.

4.) "Who am I to judge or strike you down?" Many times, as a male struggles with these issues he will lash out at his personal mother. He will punish her. He will yell, he will strike her down. But keep in mind, he is only projecting the Mother Archetype onto his personal mother. It is essential that he come to the realization that these thing in all truth have nothing to do with his personal mother. He must take responsibility for what has gone on within himself. He will never solve anything if he continues to blame his personal mother.

5.) "But you're pushing me and shoving me. You still love me and push it on me." He struggles with his projection. She seems to love him, but she pushes her love upon him. She pushes herself, emotionally, physically and spiritually upon him.

6.) "Rest your trigger on my finger." This is where he directly refers to the Oedipus complex. What is a woman's trigger? Her clit. He has having fantasies. He wants her. She wants him.

7.) "Bang my head upon your fault line." This one should be obvious by now. One time I explained this song to my drum instructor, who is from LA, and has visited the San Andreas fault line, he said, "Yep, it does look like a big ole vagina."

8.) "Take care not to make me enter. 'Cause if I do we both may disappear." If his Oedipal Complex is allowed full reign, his ego will vanish. His consciousness will be lost. I used to have terrifying, paralyzing dreams about this when I was a kid. With a severe Oedipal complex, a boy's masculinity does not just come into question, his entire existence comes into question.

9.) "Slipping back into that gap again." He wants an ego, he wants to be a man. But mommy is too tempting. He begins to backslide. He wants to feel her secure and comforting embrace. He wants to jump into her big, symbolic vagina, "the gap."

10.) "I'm alive when you're touching me," As much as he doesn't want it, mommy still makes him feel ecstatic, euphoric, alive.

11.) "Alive when you're shoving me down." But underneath his Oedipal desire, he knows he wants something else, something more. He knows in the end, she will only bring him down.

12.) "But I'd trade it all, for just a little, piece of mind." A wonderful play on words here. A piece of mind is an ego, a psychological reality that belongs to him, that has nothing to do with his mom. He would trade all his mom can offer him, to become a man. A deliberate disconnection.

13.) "Put me somewhere I don't wanna be. Seeing someplace I don't want to see. Never wanna see that place again." He has nearly entered the gap. This line in the song completely sums up my thoughts about the dreams I used to have. But Maynard now makes a resolution. This is the first time in the song he has behaved like a man. He makes a decision that he will stick to.

14.) "Saw that gap again today as you were begging me to stay." He is again tempted. His mother begs him to stay. We can see this literally in a mother's struggle when her son wishes to leave the home.

15.) "Managed to push myself away, and you as well." He has stuck to his resolution. He will not again fall into the gap. But when he refuses to enter, he pushes his mother away as well.

16.) "If, when I say I may fade like a sigh if I stay," He knows that if he doesn't deal with his Oedipal complex, he will never amount to anything, he will never become a man, he will simply fade away.

17.) "You minimize my movements anyway," He cannot talk his way out of this. She will only continue to seduce him. He alludes to the concept of movement here. Movement is a quality indicative of masculinity. She will coninue to damper his budding masculinity.

18.) "I must persuade you another way." The time for words is over, it is now the time for action. Here begins a symbolic battle. He must fight the dragon.

19.) "There is no love in fear." This is his battle cry. The threat of castration, the threat of losing his ego, there is no love there, that is only fear.

20.) "Staring down the hole again. Hands upon my back again" Here again is another allusion to the vagina. He feels defenseless, like he always has. He must overcome. He must cut loose the binds that tie him.

21.) "Survival is my only friend. Terrified of what may come." Anyone who has had similar experiences as the ones depicted in these lyrics will know the exquisite terror and relief and wonder when one has freed one's self from the choking grip of the Great Mother. There is no one there to help him. He is alone, finally, alone.

22.) "Just remember I will always love you," He will never stop loving his mother, the personal one and the archetypal one. In fact, everything he is doing is out of love.

23.) "Even as I claw your fucking throat away." Here is a direct allusion to the slaying of the dragon, the Ouroboros.

24.) "It will end no other way." There are no pills to take here. No Prozac can save you. Nothing will solve this for him but the slaying of the dragon. He must say goodbye to mommy.

You see, only now can he really develop a relationship with his Anima. The Great Mother has been slain, now Maynard may experience the feminine in different ways. His Anima will bring him closer and closer to the unconscious, to God. She will help him, "Pry open his Third Eye." But you see, everything moves in circles. The Ouroboros is a closed system. So, paradoxically, slaying the dragon is the only way to really have sex with your mother. Get it?

Now I am going to go into my backyard, slip Salival into my CD player, look up at the cosmos and go on a warrior's journey with Maynard. God bless these four guys as they again bring a myth alive. Their music has truly been a light for me, leading me into the darkness, guiding me towards unconsciousness, and again, into the light.

I must say that the bands objective has worked better than i ever imagined it would. I find it has nothing to do with whether or not this is right or wrong, but as to come up with ur own idea of what it could mean. There is no absolute answer that is 100% right because they say that themselves. As long as you are creating and thinking for urself then the band has succeeded.

[BoomShakaLaka]

yesterday i listened to the song for the thousands or so time in my life and i suddenly had an idea....

Pushit= push shit = shittin

I will choke until I swallow...
Choke this infant here before me.

you eat, the food is an infant- when its grown up it becomes shit

What is this but my reflection?
Who am I to judge and strike you down?

ok? you shit and reflect about it- shit = reflection of food

But you're
Pushing and shoving me.
You still love me and you pushit on me.

should be as obvious- c`mon you push the shit- and you love the food

Rest your trigger on my finger,
bang my head upon the fault line.
Take care not to make me enter.
'cause if I do we both may disappear.


youcant hold up the feeling that you have to shit- sooner or later you`ll have to
(now you have to imagine the "mr.hanky"-perspective- what I mean is the shit sings this parts)

But you're pushing me,
Shoving me. Pushit on me.

But i'd trade it all
For just a little bit of
Piece of mind.

you know the feeling when you either have to shit really hard- but you cant cuz theres no toilet around or something

Put me somewhere I don't wanna be.
Seeing someplace I don't wanna see.
Never wanna see that place again.

now the piece opf shit drops into the toilet (listen to the music- like flushing down something)


Saw that gap again today
As you were begging me to stay.
Managed to push myself away,
And you, as well.


If, when I say I may fade like a sigh if I stay,
You minimize my movement anyway,
I must persuade you another way.


if you try to hold up the shit you can hardly move as freely as you can when not in that urge :)

There's no love in fear.

Staring down the (ass)hole again. - mr.hanky`s perspective again- he`s afraid to be dropped in the cold & ugly toilet again- he knows the gam


Hands upon my back again.
Survival is my only friend.
Terrified of what may come.

terrified- cuz it is in the "gap" between the anal-inside and the "toilet"outside

Just remember I will always love you,
Even as I tear your fucking throat away.
But it will end no other way.


dont take it too serious - just another stupid funny interpretation + xcuse ma stupidd english



as wierd as that may sound...i agree with you a 100% nice break-down of the song

[janzu]

Lots of great posts, a good education for myself regarding the oedipus complex. I think that JC did a great job formulating his theories of the meaning of the song's lyrics. It would be pretty remarkable if the lyrics did indeed correlate with the ego/ mother conflict. I don't fully agree with this......but great thought put into this thread. My opinion is that the lyrics simply reflect conflict within relationships.
And yes, I did wanna bang my mom when I was little.

[saintjoe]

If this was freudian pschology, i am very disappointed. I would hope the band would not conjure up a song based on a theory of some quack...yah have fun w\ that..I would hope they would be a bit more creative and innovative.....sorry, i hope thomas knight is wrong(for many reasons though)

[thomasknight]

I don't like this thread because it seems the OP based his thoughts on an incorrect interpretation of certain theories. He seemed to misunderstand Jung's understanding of archetypes. Also an incorrect version of the whole Oedipus idea.