Satan

[RachJacob]

At the very end of this song Maynard sings about taking drugs with his friends and inbetween he says Satan and it echos into the background.
Now I was jogging the other day and had a moment of clairity about this, just wanted to see if there was anyone out there who has another spin on what this means to them?
First I want your opinion and I will return with mine.

[Bhikkhu]

ok, here it is: He's says Satan a couple of times to make people think they (Tool) are worshipping Satan. Off course he's just kidding (hush). Maybe they want to scare off people who think narrow-minded like this or something and don't want those people to buy the album.
Another explanation is that he's trying to create a conflict between younger kids (who have bought the album) and their narrow-minded parents, so these kids can explain that they're not really satanic. If these kids see how upset their parents become over such a non-serious song like "the gaping lotus experience", then maybe they will start to question their parents beliefs.
...just a thought...just planting seeds...maybe they will grow...lol...kill yourself...don't take that wrong...

[RachJacob]

ok, here it is: He's says Satan a couple of times to make people think they (Tool) are worshipping Satan. Off course he's just kidding (hush). Maybe they want to scare off people who think narrow-minded like this or something and don't want those people to buy the album.
Another explanation is that he's trying to create a conflict between younger kids (who have bought the album) and their narrow-minded parents, so these kids can explain that they're not really satanic. If these kids see how upset their parents become over such a non-serious song like "the gaping lotus experience", then maybe they will start to question their parents beliefs.
...just a thought...just planting seeds...maybe they will grow...lol...kill yourself...don't take that wrong...

Finally a response! And an honest one at that, I appreciate it tremendously. Let me start by saying that your response is definitely a good perspective and a very realistic one at that. However my take was a little more on the metaphorical side of the songs meaning, or at least what I came to understand or unfold.
First let me clarify that I don't believe in Satan/Heaven/Hell/God in the formal sense, I believe that these words describe a sort of understanding that have been created by societal and cultural standards. With that said I have encountered many individuals that have major addictions to instant release through, drugs and alcohol. In turn leading them down a very difficult road of limiting understandings or realizations (the Satan mind), stuck in what they consider to be the only way they can achieve this state of viewing the world (wrong so very wrong), which is through the drugs or alcohol (Please don't misinterpret this for a bash against the individuals who enjoy doing such things, I myself have enjoyed many times, I just don’t agree in being dependent on them).
The struggle to maintain their beautiful worldview that up until this point have only been achieved by intoxication.
So in a nutshell what I am trying to say is that the limited view that a state of mind can only be achieved by certain intoxication, is consequently achieving the self fulfilling prophecy and in turn creating the addition to the only form of release they know.
My definition of hell or a satanic frame of mind would be living in limitations. Not allowing yourself to explore beyond what you believe to be true (pure narcissism), or as the saying goes not ‘thinking outside of the box’, which is what they have fooled themselves to believe they are doing by the intoxication in the first place!
That is what that part of the song said to me!
Side Note: The song 46 & 2 describes the opposite, the God consciousness or frame of mind.

[Bhikkhu]

well, the song is about drugs, but I don't really think it's about addiction. I know xtc can be addictive, but lsd is not addictive in my opinion. However, it might have something to do with the "reason why" people take drugs. To me it seems that some people just want to experiment, and after one or two times of trying something, they quit.
But what about the people who keep taking some kind of drug? I think it does indeed could have something to do with the way they view the world. There is a kind of general feeling of being dissatisfied with reality. They want things to change. Or maybe they are just too sensitive and want to block out things from outside that makes them feel uncomfortable. In my opinion, this is not a good reason to use drugs. If you already are not feeling too well about the world or reality, drugs is just gonna mess things up more than they already are. Take for instance people who are emotionally unstable and then take acid or mushrooms. They end up having a bad trip or even kill themselves.
Now, I don't think there's anything wrong with thinking that there's something wrong with world. In my life there's usually always been a general feeling that I want things to change. I've also been addicted for marijuana for a while, until I realized I was fuckin' up at school. Then I decided I should quit. I've also had a lot of "friends" who were using marijuana, xtc and lsd, but it turned out that a lot of them were not real friends, so I decided then that I'd be better of not to hang out with them anymore.
I can tell you that (sometimes) I'm not so happy with the way I am or with the way that "things turned out for me". I've just started to read books on Buddhism and have been practicing with meditation. I believe I have, and everyone has, the strength/power/determination within himself to change into something or someone who is able to see things the way they truly are, and not have a false view of reality.
Is this what you mean with "the God consciousness or frame of mind"?

It seems to me that a lot of songs from Tool have to do with Buddhism, for example The Grudge, which has to do with letting go of a negative/destructive emotion.

Let me finish of with a quote:
But whosoever in this world overcomes this wretched craving so difficult to overcome, his sorrows fall away from him like water-drops from a lotus.

[Bhikkhu]

I do think and more or less know that there are various levels of conciousness. To me it seems that some people live very "unconciously" and are somehow not ready to see the truth. Personally, I think I'm very concious of myself and others, during my usual daily life. Although I think it's good to live very conciously, to me it also seems to have some negative aspects, but I think dealing with these negative aspects can make you stronger. Not that I think that because of this I'm better or above other people, although I would like to see other people to live more conciously.

Just a thought just popped into my mind:
Have you ever watched the south park episode "bloody mary"? It also has to do with addiction and discipline (true discipline comes from within).
I've watched every south park episode at least 3 times. To me it seems people can learn a lot from it and it's also really funny of course :D

[RachJacob]

I do think and more or less know that there are various levels of conciousness. To me it seems that some people live very "unconciously" and are somehow not ready to see the truth. Personally, I think I'm very concious of myself and others, during my usual daily life. Although I think it's good to live very conciously, to me it also seems to have some negative aspects, but I think dealing with these negative aspects can make you stronger. Not that I think that because of this I'm better or above other people, although I would like to see other people to live more conciously.

Just a thought just popped into my mind:
Have you ever watched the south park episode "bloody mary"? It also has to do with addiction and discipline (true discipline comes from within).
I've watched every south park episode at least 3 times. To me it seems people can learn a lot from it and it's also really funny of course :D

We all have similar paths through different experiences, that lead to the same meanings. Keep searching, digging, exploring, your on the right path!

Do understand this, there is nothing possitive or negative that happens in this world, good and bad are simply constructs of the human mind (a TOOL that we must transcend).

[Bhikkhu]

this is getting a bit off-topic, but I agree with you. according to Buddhism there is a path you can follow (the noble eightfold path), but there's also a "river" to cross (maybe this has something to do with the overall "water theme" of Undertow). Many people may have an urge to cross this river, but they are choosing the wrong methods and sometimes end up "dancing in quicksand" or "down in the undertow" or even "at the bottom".

[RachJacob]

this is getting a bit off-topic, but I agree with you. according to Buddhism there is a path you can follow (the noble eightfold path), but there's also a "river" to cross (maybe this has something to do with the overall "water theme" of Undertow). Many people may have an urge to cross this river, but they are choosing the wrong methods and sometimes end up "dancing in quicksand" or "down in the undertow" or even "at the bottom".

It's all true. If there are metaphors that stand out to you and you are able to put meaning to them and apply them to your life, then you are on a path of discovery, control/out-of-control, and most of all understanding. All of the world’s disciplines have something to teach, as long as you are willing to see them from the right perspective you will gain beautiful meanings to life, and compassion for everything.

[miketh74]

It's all true. If there are metaphors that stand out to you and you are able to put meaning to them and apply them to your life, then you are on a path of discovery, control/out-of-control, and most of all understanding. All of the world’s disciplines have something to teach, as long as you are willing to see them from the right perspective you will gain beautiful meanings to life, and compassion for everything.

Well said....I'd have to agree with Bhikkhu. Tool seems to always want to weed out the ignorant and shallow minded (Aenema). So what better way than to put the "idea" out that they might be satanic. Good thread...surprised no one else has commented on this.

[RachJacob]

Well said....I'd have to agree with Bhikkhu. Tool seems to always want to weed out the ignorant and shallow minded (Aenema). So what better way than to put the "idea" out that they might be satanic. Good thread...surprised no one else has commented on this.

Agreed!

[RachJacob]

Well said....I'd have to agree with Bhikkhu. Tool seems to always want to weed out the ignorant and shallow minded (Aenema). So what better way than to put the "idea" out that they might be satanic. Good thread...surprised no one else has commented on this.

Sorry such a quick response.
I definitely agree with that perception, I also believe that there are many layers to the meanings behind the music and lyrics, some intentional and some unintentional.
Now I also believe that the weeding out of simple minds is the natural progression due to the material being provided, which is where the concept of "satanic material" would come in.
Thanks for joining in on this discussion!

[Bhikkhu]

I didn't think about it yet, but what about the disc from Aenema ?:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Astaroth

It also made me think about the story of Job from the bible, where Satan makes a bet with God. It seems to me that Satan tricks God into doing horrible stuff to Job just to prove a point and it becomes clear that even God might not be perfect? Thoughts?

[RachJacob]

I didn't think about it yet, but what about the disc from Aenema ?:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Astaroth

It also made me think about the story of Job from the bible, where Satan makes a bet with God. It seems to me that Satan tricks God into doing horrible stuff to Job just to prove a point and it becomes clear that even God might not be perfect? Thoughts?

I am having a difficult time being able to describe my feelings on this subject without making it sound like a statement.
I believe that there is a state of consciousness that one can achieve (like God) that will give them wisdom, but it doesn't make them indestructible. In the end everyone is human and until you have personally dealt with a particular situation you can't say that you would have done it differently.

[Bhikkhu]

I've just looked up some information about the 6 realms in Buddhism. The highest one is off course the "God realm", but if you reach this realm, doubt will make you fall back into one of the "lower" realms.

"The human realm is the only one in which liberation from the six states of existence is possible. The human realm is characterised by doubt and inquisitiveness and the longing for something better. We are not as absorbed by the all consuming preoccupations of the other states of being. We begin to wonder whether it is possible to relate to the world as simple, dignified human beings."

I've found this info here: http://www.buddhanet.net/e-learning/intro_bud.htm

[conor moore]

as i read this the bells in my local church are ringing

[miketh74]

as i read this the bells in my local church are ringing

That right there will put you in a different realm. Spooky.....

[Esurient4Truth]

It also made me think about the story of Job from the bible, where Satan makes a bet with God. It seems to me that Satan tricks God into doing horrible stuff to Job just to prove a point and it becomes clear that even God might not be perfect? Thoughts?

I think God was like, "dude, you're on!"

[RachJacob]

I've just looked up some information about the 6 realms in Buddhism. The highest one is off course the "God realm", but if you reach this realm, doubt will make you fall back into one of the "lower" realms.

"The human realm is the only one in which liberation from the six states of existence is possible. The human realm is characterised by doubt and inquisitiveness and the longing for something better. We are not as absorbed by the all consuming preoccupations of the other states of being. We begin to wonder whether it is possible to relate to the world as simple, dignified human beings."

I've found this info here: http://www.buddhanet.net/e-learning/intro_bud.htm

Isn't it amazing how these concepts were taught thousands of years ago and even today people reject them. My bleeding heart.

[Bhikkhu]

I think God was like, "dude, you're on!"

I don't know exactly what you mean, but if you're interested you could try reading "Answer to Job (Antwort auf Hiob)" by CG Jung. In this book he addresses the moral and psychological implications of the "Book of Job". I've not read it myself, but am planning to read it someday.

[Bhikkhu]

Isn't it amazing how these concepts were taught thousands of years ago and even today people reject them. My bleeding heart.

I think thousands of years ago people had much more time to themselves instead of people these days. In these times we have a lot of bullcrap that is not important, like TV, useless jobs, fashion, sex, cars, mobile phones, etc. I think because all of this people are kinda becoming distracted of the things that really matter in life, like spiritual progress and ethical issues. There's a lot of stuff going on in this world that's horrible and people care more about their new mobile phone that they just bought and tend to forget about the rest of the world and themselves.

I was trying to explain how people came to these concepts you were talking about, but I guess I kinda got on a rant and tried to explain why a lot of people don't care.
Maybe I should try to look at it more positively....I have a tendency to focus on the negative aspects...

[RachJacob]

I think thousands of years ago people had much more time to themselves instead of people these days. In these times we have a lot of bullcrap that is not important, like TV, useless jobs, fashion, sex, cars, mobile phones, etc. I think because all of this people are kinda becoming distracted of the things that really matter in life, like spiritual progress and ethical issues. There's a lot of stuff going on in this world that's horrible and people care more about their new mobile phone that they just bought and tend to forget about the rest of the world and themselves.

I was trying to explain how people came to these concepts you were talking about, but I guess I kinda got on a rant and tried to explain why a lot of people don't care.
Maybe I should try to look at it more positively....I have a tendency to focus on the negative aspects...

Every statement is not set in stone, my perspective and understanding of life and it's meaning changes with every encounter I come across. Like you have said, in a time where technology has taken precedence over spiritual awakening even I struggle to find my way through this new way of living, but the difference is that there is no other way of life for me now. Allowing myself to "fall" and to pick myself up again to keep moving forward, there is no other option this is my life.
It's hard not to "rant" when you have stumbled (or at least in my case stumbled) across such an amazing way of seeing the world, or understanding it. My life has changed and hasn't been the same ever since, and upon reflection of my life before I realize it was always apart of me. Now through encounters with like-minded individuals and self-education, you start to put words and meanings to the perspectives you encounter along your new journey.
Life changes when you are no longer afraid of what you think.

[Bhikkhu]

It's good to find that there are other like-minded people out here on this forum. I have the feeling I can really find some (emotional) support here and discuss these things that are going through my mind. The only other person in my "real/social" life with whom I can discuss these things is my father. He has pretty much the same view of the world as me, although he doesn't know much about buddhism or jungian psychology, but he has read a lot of books and knows much about music (he also likes Tool, but his icon is Elvis Presley).

[miketh74]

It's good to find that there are other like-minded people out here on this forum. I have the feeling I can really find some (emotional) support here and discuss these things that are going through my mind. The only other person in my "real/social" life with whom I can discuss these things is my father. He has pretty much the same view of the world as me, although he doesn't know much about buddhism or jungian psychology, but he has read a lot of books and knows much about music (he also likes Tool, but his icon is Elvis Presley).

Wish I could get my dad to throw in a Tool cd....he'd probably get a lot of insight to the spiritual side of things instead of all the bias bullshit he puts up with at work.

Makes me truly thankful for Tool's music.

[dmurf]

That part of the song to me is reminicent of the Doors. I was almost waiting for him to start chanting 'ride the snake' the first few times I heard it; I can almost argue that they're poking fun at psychadellic bands.

[Eulogy33]

ok, here it is: He's says Satan a couple of times to make people think they (Tool) are worshipping Satan. Off course he's just kidding (hush). Maybe they want to scare off people who think narrow-minded like this or something and don't want those people to buy the album.
Another explanation is that he's trying to create a conflict between younger kids (who have bought the album) and their narrow-minded parents, so these kids can explain that they're not really satanic. If these kids see how upset their parents become over such a non-serious song like "the gaping lotus experience", then maybe they will start to question their parents beliefs.
...just a thought...just planting seeds...maybe they will grow...lol...kill yourself...don't take that wrong...


yes, TOOL are some smart bastards eh?

[gjamison27]

Yeah, they are pretty smart.....and definitely Satanic.

[miketh74]

Yeah, they are pretty smart.....and definitely Satanic.

I don't see them as satanic, but I believe you have to accept Satan as a part of life to be truly spiritual in nature. IMO: Tool just poses questions that challenge those spiritual beliefs.

[dmurf]

Calling them 'satanic' would be like calling ... I dunno, air 'oxygen'. There's much more to what they believe/do than to lump it all in as 'satanism'. That's just lazy wording and something which they've always been against (just read the essay in AEnema, if you wonder what I mean).

[gjamison27]

Tool worships no one. Not even Satan herself. Keep in mind, Satan is a creation of the Judeo/Christian belief structure as is God and all those angels everyone talks about. Worship of Satan (or anything/one for that matter) doesn't jive with "the message" any more than Tool at Mass on Sunday. Pay attention guys......where is Octopod when you need him?

Tool are actually the Aliens that crashed at Area 51 all those years ago. Eventually the government let them out into our world under the condition of anonymity. They agreed and chose be a rock band so that they could tour the earth and investigate. Everytime you see a Tool show, your thoughts and feelings are actually being documented and sent to the star cluster 683941986714-4622710000.

[miketh74]

Tool worships no one. Not even Satan herself. Keep in mind, Satan is a creation of the Judeo/Christian belief structure as is God and all those angels everyone talks about. Worship of Satan (or anything/one for that matter) doesn't jive with "the message" any more than Tool at Mass on Sunday. Pay attention guys......where is Octopod when you need him?

Tool are actually the Aliens that crashed at Area 51 all those years ago. Eventually the government let them out into our world under the condition of anonymity. They agreed and chose be a rock band so that they could tour the earth and investigate. Everytime you see a Tool show, your thoughts and feelings are actually being documented and sent to the star cluster 683941986714-4622710000.

LMAO!! That's great. I am documentation 1,786,565-Y.

[RachJacob]

A little off course... but that tends to happen with us Tool fans (I'm sure someone will find a way to argue that as well). This thread was intended to ignite a different perspective of the formal concepts of "Satan" and/or "God". Which is what most of you seem to be to doing in your own way, that is what makes perspectives so wonderful they can all be defined differently yet have the same meaning, read between the lines.
It says more about someone when you are willing to understand, instead of trying to be understood.

[dxs]

A little off course... but that tends to happen with us Tool fans (I'm sure someone will find a way to argue that as well). This thread was intended to ignite a different perspective of the formal concepts of "Satan" and/or "God". Which is what most of you seem to be to doing in your own way, that is what makes perspectives so wonderful they can all be defined differently yet have the same meaning, read between the lines.
It says more about someone when you are willing to understand, instead of trying to be understood.

Right.
Mostly, I think the "Satan's", after passing some steps in the course of analyzation, lead to the fact that we humans categorize, paraphrase, and stereotypicize (is that a word?) sooner than we should.

For example, people immediately think that Satan is the epitome of evil, and every sort of sin or problem is somehow related to him.

Which I'm sure TOOL thinks is absolutely barbaric.

What I think people forget when they read the bible is that it is a parable. Whether it is true or not, we don't really know, but in all likelyhood, it is a book that teaches us to grow as a person.

As for those of other religions, I'm sorry for treading on this ground, because it leads to a lot of paradoxical things...

Of course, they paraphrase some things with God and Satan and Jesus, but in the end, if one focuses so much on God, Satan, and Jesus, then you've gained nothing from the journey you've gone through in the book.

And...maybe The Gaping Lotus experience is related to that. It might be related to the "journey" and probably how we've gained nothing with the "I'm getting bored"'s.

Wow, this was a bit oddly written, but I think you guys can follow...