Identifying with the Angels

[Bundahead]

What a great song! When I listen to it my mind wonders and I feel as if I'm sitting high up in the cosmos somewhere; eaves dropping on conversation between two angels. I find a kindredship with these angels b/c I've thought the same things so many times. I almost want to break in their discussion, sit down with them and discuss it further. Maybe the message coming from the perspective of angels will cause even the most stauch bible beater to have a listen and possibly understand how universal the message is. I've given much thought to the whole "heaven on earth" subject long before i heard this song. It hit home for me. I choose to hear the words "Repugnant is the creature who would squander the ablility TO LIVE TONIGHT ON heaven consious of his fleeting time here"
I'm stuck on that understanding, i guess, b/c it takes away the abiguity of the line. I've thought for so long that the real messages brought to us by Jesus and others like him, have been long lost. There is much debate among philosophers and theologins over the whole "heaven on earth" issue and how it should be interpreted. Their debate consists of two main, however simplified arguments: one saying the scripture reads that upon Jesus' return heaven will come down to earth. The other says that Heaven is earth, if only we chose to treat it as such. I personally believe the latter, if only b/c it gives me back some control in this world. Atleast then we have some power to change things and that we aren't destined to live this way forever but in fact we could choose to use our free will and make our own destiny. Imagine if we treated our planet and everyone on it as if this were heaven, and that it was your one and only time to get to visit.
Would we spend our time developing weapons? Would we still continue exhausting the planet of its resources? Would we spend our time trying to figure out who's view of the acient teachings are correct? Would we spend our time building fences on imaginary lines in the sand? I want to hear how someone else feels about this.

[Inner_Eulogy]

What a great song! When I listen to it my mind wonders and I feel as if I'm sitting high up in the cosmos somewhere; eaves dropping on conversation between two angels. I find a kindredship with these angels b/c I've thought the same things so many times. I almost want to break in their discussion, sit down with them and discuss it further. Maybe the message coming from the perspective of angels will cause even the most stauch bible beater to have a listen and possibly understand how universal the message is. I've given much thought to the whole "heaven on earth" subject long before i heard this song. It hit home for me. I choose to hear the words "Repugnant is the creature who would squander the ablility TO LIVE TONIGHT ON heaven consious of his fleeting time here"
I'm stuck on that understanding, i guess, b/c it takes away the abiguity of the line. I've thought for so long that the real messages brought to us by Jesus and others like him, have been long lost. There is much debate among philosophers and theologins over the whole "heaven on earth" issue and how it should be interpreted. Their debate consists of two main, however simplified arguments: one saying the scripture reads that upon Jesus' return heaven will come down to earth. The other says that Heaven is earth, if only we chose to treat it as such. I personally believe the latter, if only b/c it gives me back some control in this world. Atleast then we have some power to change things and that we aren't destined to live this way forever but in fact we could choose to use our free will and make our own destiny. Imagine if we treated our planet and everyone on it as if this were heaven, and that it was your one and only time to get to visit.
Would we spend our time developing weapons? Would we still continue exhausting the planet of its resources? Would we spend our time trying to figure out who's view of the acient teachings are correct? Would we spend our time building fences on imaginary lines in the sand? I want to hear how someone else feels about this.

Very well put...I agree with this completely and the feeling's mutual. I've always wished the world could be a better place yet there's so few people who truly care about the state it's in and the few that do feel completely helpless because they are so few. You always hear "only you can make a difference" but the fact of the matter is, unless you're a powerful and wealthy individual or perhaps a celebrity, who the hell's going to listen to you, the common man? Now say we gather all groups together even and banded together, we're still no match for the government and there will always be conflicts throughout the world and presidents (fill in blank here), that don't know any other way to resolve them. I feel somewhat hypocritical however because although I wish the world could just accept their differences and get along, I also sometimes wish America would just drop a few nukes over in Iran, Iraq and Afghanistan and get it over with. It also pisses me off how politcally correct America has become. EVERYbody makes such a big deal over the smallest things and so many worthless people file lawsuits just for money over anything these days. I was just reading an article earlier about this guy who was a lawyer and he sued this drycleaning place over a pair of pants that got lost and he was seriously asking for 67milllion over a fucking pair of pants simply because they had a sign that read "satisfaction guaranteed". Can you fucking believe that? Thank god the judge ruled in favor of the drycleaners and ordered this guy to pay court costs and there is another date set to see if he has to pay for the drycleaners attorney costs and I think he should. Or even the lady that sued McDonald's years ago because she spilt the coffee on herself and burned her and she sued and won a few million because there was no warning sign on the coffee pot that said the coffee was HOT. Are you fucking kidding me?!! And the court ruled in her decision? I mean, fuck I'd like to be rich too but how fucking retarded is that she got rich either by being extremely ignorant or being quite smart. Nonetheless, in my opinion it's a failure to apply any common sense and logic to the justice system. Likewise, what's with all the fucking lunatics out there cutting off their babies arms and legs and/or killing their children, drowning them and getting off with claiming they're crazy. I don't fucking care if you're not in your right mind, they should be on death row or better yet have already left this planet. God for fucking bid somebody ever did something to my son. And it's NOT OK to take the law into your own hands if something like that happens even though the court will slap their wrist and stick 'em in a padded room. Where's the justice in that? Or rapists even, ever seen "American Me" the mexican mafia movie in the part where the guy in prison was raped and then they shoved a serrated knife up his ass? YEAH, that's fucking justice. That's DAN LAW!! Sorry, wasn't I talking about peace on earth?? And that's exactly why there never will be I guess...it's human nature

[Bundahead]

Breaks my heart a little more each time i come to that same conclusion. You have a handle on realty while i probably am a little more delusional; never losing hope that somehow we can evolve and correct the wrongs we've created for ourselves. I know that its a delusion i choose; it helps me sleep at night.

[Inner_Eulogy]

Breaks my heart a little more each time i come to that same conclusion. You have a handle on realty while i probably am a little more delusional; never losing hope that somehow we can evolve and correct the wrongs we've created for ourselves. I know that its a delusion i choose; it helps me sleep at night.

To quote Maynard "don't just call me a pessimist" for I am also quite optimistic and hope for the best. Hell, I'm counting down the days to 12/21/2012 in hopes that something, anything happens. Hoping that it's a start of a new life as the Mayans believed...or possibly at worse, the end of it all.

[Bundahead]

To quote Maynard "don't just call me a pessimist" for I am also quite optimistic and hope for the best. Hell, I'm counting down the days to 12/21/2012 in hopes that something, anything happens. Hoping that it's a start of a new life as the Mayans believed...or possibly at worse, the end of it all.

Either way: a start of a new life or the end of it all...it still sounds like a "sweet release" to me when all things are considered. I guess atleast you, me, Maynard and the angels on the sideline will all be kindred spirits on that day (12/21/2012) welcoming that change..whatever it is.

[sonicanimal6]

Breaks my heart a little more each time i come to that same conclusion. You have a handle on realty while i probably am a little more delusional; never losing hope that somehow we can evolve and correct the wrongs we've created for ourselves. I know that its a delusion i choose; it helps me sleep at night.

Hey, hey, hey.

Who says it's a delusion? It's possible. Nay, fuck it, it's NECESSARY.

[Bundahead]

Very well put...I agree with this completely and the feeling's mutual. I've always wished the world could be a better place yet there's so few people who truly care about the state it's in and the few that do feel completely helpless because they are so few. You always hear "only you can make a difference" but the fact of the matter is, unless you're a powerful and wealthy individual or perhaps a celebrity, who the hell's going to listen to you, the common man? Now say we gather all groups together even and banded together, we're still no match for the government and there will always be conflicts throughout the world and presidents (fill in blank here), that don't know any other way to resolve them. I feel somewhat hypocritical however because although I wish the world could just accept their differences and get along, I also sometimes wish America would just drop a few nukes over in Iran, Iraq and Afghanistan and get it over with. It also pisses me off how politcally correct America has become. EVERYbody makes such a big deal over the smallest things and so many worthless people file lawsuits just for money over anything these days. I was just reading an article earlier about this guy who was a lawyer and he sued this drycleaning place over a pair of pants that got lost and he was seriously asking for 67milllion over a fucking pair of pants simply because they had a sign that read "satisfaction guaranteed". Can you fucking believe that? Thank god the judge ruled in favor of the drycleaners and ordered this guy to pay court costs and there is another date set to see if he has to pay for the drycleaners attorney costs and I think he should. Or even the lady that sued McDonald's years ago because she spilt the coffee on herself and burned her and she sued and won a few million because there was no warning sign on the coffee pot that said the coffee was HOT. Are you fucking kidding me?!! And the court ruled in her decision? I mean, fuck I'd like to be rich too but how fucking retarded is that she got rich either by being extremely ignorant or being quite smart. Nonetheless, in my opinion it's a failure to apply any common sense and logic to the justice system. Likewise, what's with all the fucking lunatics out there cutting off their babies arms and legs and/or killing their children, drowning them and getting off with claiming they're crazy. I don't fucking care if you're not in your right mind, they should be on death row or better yet have already left this planet. God for fucking bid somebody ever did something to my son. And it's NOT OK to take the law into your own hands if something like that happens even though the court will slap their wrist and stick 'em in a padded room. Where's the justice in that? Or rapists even, ever seen "American Me" the mexican mafia movie in the part where the guy in prison was raped and then they shoved a serrated knife up his ass? YEAH, that's fucking justice. That's DAN LAW!! Sorry, wasn't I talking about peace on earth?? And that's exactly why there never will be I guess...it's human nature


Human Nature: This should be our term for the day. But, how do we define it? I'd say that its the main element of a human being that sits like a backdrop to every other element which abides in a person. It has a hand in every movement, every decision that a person makes. I think the "angels" are just as baffled and confused with human nature as they are with our free will. Our free will is mostly guides by what? Our human nature. That's right kids, our free will isn't really even free will. Its unconciously guided by this other stupid irrational side of ourselves that we don't have much control over. But what if we brought human nature to the forefront and used it to rebuild the world around us. The one and only thing that we know we have in common with every other person in this world is human nature; it even transcends religion. Using the universal known components of this element: Ego, emotions, culture, surroundings ect. we might be able to see past our differences and have a basic understanding of one another. So what does anyone else think? How can we embrace this and utilize it? or Can we? How would you define human nature?

[Inner_Eulogy]

Human Nature: This should be our term for the day. But, how do we define it? I'd say that its the main element of a human being that sits like a backdrop to every other element which abides in a person. It has a hand in every movement, every decision that a person makes. I think the "angels" are just as baffled and confused with human nature as they are with our free will. Our free will is mostly guides by what? Our human nature. That's right kids, our free will isn't really even free will. Its unconciously guided by this other stupid irrational side of ourselves that we don't have much control over. But what if we brought human nature to the forefront and used it to rebuild the world around us. The one and only thing that we know we have in common with every other person in this world is human nature; it even transcends religion. Using the universal known components of this element: Ego, emotions, culture, surroundings ect. we might be able to see past our differences and have a basic understanding of one another. So what does anyone else think? How can we embrace this and utilize it? or Can we? How would you define human nature?

I agree that human nature may drive free will but I disagree entirely that they are one in the same. Human nature is a general steretype of how the majority of the human population is by their actions and common interests/goals/flaws. Not everybody is the same and not everybody is careless of others and the world as a whole, however, the in terms of the masses, those people are far and few between. Now, Free Will, on the other hand, is the fact that we as humans have the freedom/ability to make a conscience choice. We know right from wrong, we know emotions are strong; we have the ability to make a choice of what our actions are regardless of the underlying emotion and/or circumstances may be. We have a choice to let our human nature (instinctive feeling) to control us and make our decision for us, OR we possess the free will (self control) to make the best decision for ourselves. This is a task that as a human being you will probably practice throughout your entire life. Another matter of free will is how you react to your poor choices when you do make the wrong ones. Either you allow it to set you back, or you grow from it and learn from it, making you a stronger person and more adept to dealing with the next until eventually you reach a point where you are strong enough emotionally and mentally to make the decision that's always best for you (and of course family or loved ones, friends, random people in need, etc) And that's my 2 cents on the subject

[LucidDruid]

What I call the 'original screw up' is when mankind could not accept itself as being submissive to nature; when we had tricked ourselves into thinking our race to be its master. Mankind as a whole (or in general) cannot seem to accept the simple life when it thinks it has found something "better"; the way it always was becomes something reviled. It was as if the thought of our inherent instinct, our genes, had somehow, given us a right to say f*ck it all… we are the top. Even today, those who find themselves unimportant in the midst of things try to complicate, or prove themselves, dominant. For some of these malcontents it is gratuitous sex, for others, genocide and unmitigated death.
I am neither lover nor warrior. My love is the things I have yet to discover, my battlefield is my own mind. I am a philosopher. It is how I cope with that instinct; that struggle for dominance. It is so that I do not bring pain upon others, but also so I do not bring pain upon myself; for destruction merely brings more of the same ... on and on ... ad infinitum . . . .

(Anyone got change for a paradigm?)

[Bundahead]

I agree that human nature may drive free will but I disagree entirely that they are one in the same. Human nature is a general steretype of how the majority of the human population is by their actions and common interests/goals/flaws. Not everybody is the same and not everybody is careless of others and the world as a whole, however, the in terms of the masses, those people are far and few between. Now, Free Will, on the other hand, is the fact that we as humans have the freedom/ability to make a conscience choice. We know right from wrong, we know emotions are strong; we have the ability to make a choice of what our actions are regardless of the underlying emotion and/or circumstances may be. We have a choice to let our human nature (instinctive feeling) to control us and make our decision for us, OR we possess the free will (self control) to make the best decision for ourselves. This is a task that as a human being you will probably practice throughout your entire life. Another matter of free will is how you react to your poor choices when you do make the wrong ones. Either you allow it to set you back, or you grow from it and learn from it, making you a stronger person and more adept to dealing with the next until eventually you reach a point where you are strong enough emotionally and mentally to make the decision that's always best for you (and of course family or loved ones, friends, random people in need, etc) And that's my 2 cents on the subject

So I marinated on this for a couple of days. I know that i didn't MEAN to say that free will and human nature were one in the same but i also thought that if that was the way it came across to you then I'd better take a look inside and see if that was how I really felt. I still don't have a difinitive answer. I know that personal evolution throughout ones life will help one's abiltily to make choices, however I think its rare to find someone who has a tight enough grip on thier own human nature to totally eliminate its subleminal effects. That's why I believe human nature is a bond that ties us ALL together but there are so few that even give it the acknowledgment it deserves. This discussion has caused me to re-evaluate a few things in my life. Have I given up on things i want to do with my life b/c i've let free will fall into the unmerciful hands of my own human nature. Maybe i haven't utilized my free will properly. Who freakin knows?! "Why DID father give these humans free will? F*%k now i'm really confused. (lmao) But all in all i think your right. Human nature does drive free will; but our ultimate destiny lies within the choices we make.

[dirkz]

So I marinated on this for a couple of days. I know that i didn't MEAN to say that free will and human nature were one in the same but i also thought that if that was the way it came across to you then I'd better take a look inside and see if that was how I really felt. I still don't have a difinitive answer. I know that personal evolution throughout ones life will help one's abiltily to make choices, however I think its rare to find someone who has a tight enough grip on thier own human nature to totally eliminate its subleminal effects. That's why I believe human nature is a bond that ties us ALL together but there are so few that even give it the acknowledgment it deserves. This discussion has caused me to re-evaluate a few things in my life. Have I given up on things i want to do with my life b/c i've let free will fall into the unmerciful hands of my own human nature. Maybe i haven't utilized my free will properly. Who freakin knows?! "Why DID father give these humans free will? F*%k now i'm really confused. (lmao) But all in all i think your right. Human nature does drive free will; but our ultimate destiny lies within the choices we make.

my head hurts....

I agree that they are different, but these days, the line is blurred. While free will and your ability to make a decision for yourself (and your own benefit) is considered a right these days, we can't forget that it was a privilege for much of human existence. People used to have to do whatever benefited their government and their nation as a whole. I think that in today's society, where we've been taught that free will is a right, our natural reaction (read:human nature) is to use our given free will for our own benefit. And since free will has been granted by the government to its citizens, I would still qualify it under a privilege. Yet we use the privilege for our own gains. Since human nature is mostly to worry about yourself first and others later, then free will is what facilitates human nature. Main point: Human nature and free will become hopelessly intertwined to the point of indistinction.

That was a bit of a ramble. I hope it made sense to someone else besides me. If it didn't, lo siento.

[Cheesegreater]

I don't believe in free will, or at least the conventional concept of it. Free will is an illusion, BUT the idea is, we as humans feel we DO have free will, and it makes all the difference. Think about that for a second. This illusion of free will is what drives us, but in the end it's all kinda predetermined.

For instance, tell someone to simply pick a color, red or green. They may feel that they randomly chose green, but it was going to happen anyway. The Hawthorne effect can have power over your choice too. If you think, "Well, I bet this guy thinks I'm going to pick green, so I'll pick red." Again, in that moment you felt that you will was free, but the chemistry going on in your brain at the time you made the choice is a perfect map for what you're decision will be.

[dirkz]

That may be a little simpler than I imagined, Cheesegreater. Would the chemistry in the brain be the same for a decision like which car to buy, or whether or not to buy a house, or whether or not to have a child? Those were the kind of decisions I had in mind when I think about free will. Sorry for complicating things =P

[Bundahead]

Hey dirkz, I don't think there is a way to complicate things when it comes to this subject. Your thoughts on human nature once being a privelege is most certainly a valid point to be considered; and I hope that everyone knows that this isn't a debate on who's theory will win the prize. Most likely human nature and free will are infinitely more complicated than we know... or not.....
I love cheesegreater's response when he says that he/she doesn't believe in free will, and that it is only an illusion. Up to this point in the thread no one had even pondered the possibility that this was just another one of those things humans have made up for themselves to explain away an anomoly; or just another way for those in power to confuse the masses. That's definantly an interesting theory. You two seemed to kind of touch on the same points when you both talked about authority figures having a hand in our understanding and interpretation of the term; which is where i see a common bond between your two seemingly different theories. Neat.

[dirkz]

Hey dirkz, I don't think there is a way to complicate things when it comes to this subject. Your thoughts on human nature once being a privelege is most certainly a valid point to be considered; and I hope that everyone knows that this isn't a debate on who's theory will win the prize. Most likely human nature and free will are infinitely more complicated than we know... or not.....
I love cheesegreater's response when he says that he/she doesn't believe in free will, and that it is only an illusion. Up to this point in the thread no one had even pondered the possibility that this was just another one of those things humans have made up for themselves to explain away an anomoly; or just another way for those in power to confuse the masses. That's definantly an interesting theory. You two seemed to kind of touch on the same points when you both talked about authority figures having a hand in our understanding and interpretation of the term; which is where i see a common bond between your two seemingly different theories. Neat.

w00t.

And we should be awarded prizes for good posts. Deep thoughts on human nature and free will? I'll send you some candy!

[Bundahead]

w00t.

And we should be awarded prizes for good posts. Deep thoughts on human nature and free will? I'll send you some candy!

That's okay man, i already baked us some cookies.

[dirkz]

That's okay man, i already baked us some cookies.


Way to think ahead, I like that.

[Inner_Eulogy]

I don't believe in free will, or at least the conventional concept of it. Free will is an illusion, BUT the idea is, we as humans feel we DO have free will, and it makes all the difference. Think about that for a second. This illusion of free will is what drives us, but in the end it's all kinda predetermined.

For instance, tell someone to simply pick a color, red or green. They may feel that they randomly chose green, but it was going to happen anyway. The Hawthorne effect can have power over your choice too. If you think, "Well, I bet this guy thinks I'm going to pick green, so I'll pick red." Again, in that moment you felt that you will was free, but the chemistry going on in your brain at the time you made the choice is a perfect map for what you're decision will be.

Yeah, of course it sounds simple when you happen to leave out the fact that there are thousands of colors to choose from (not just 2). And of course, a human being can and may have a predisposition towards making a particular choice, but the free will is what allows you to break that barrier and make any choice you want. Perhaps I don't want to choose red or green and I'd like to go with blue instead. Or perhaps I want to go with blue but for the sake of inviting change going for brown. I'm sorry but I disagree with your statement. EVERYbody has a choice. The guy above seemed to break it down to having free will as only a delusion simply because of the government?? That is so far from fact. Granted the government can set whatever rules/laws they want but, YOU HAVE A CHOICE. Just like you can go to jail and they can take your freedom but they can NEVER take your soul, your inner being...

[dirkz]

Yeah, of course it sounds simple when you happen to leave out the fact that there are thousands of colors to choose from (not just 2). And of course, a human being can and may have a predisposition towards making a particular choice, but the free will is what allows you to break that barrier and make any choice you want. Perhaps I don't want to choose red or green and I'd like to go with blue instead. Or perhaps I want to go with blue but for the sake of inviting change going for brown. I'm sorry but I disagree with your statement. EVERYbody has a choice. The guy above seemed to break it down to having free will as only a delusion simply because of the government?? That is so far from fact. Granted the government can set whatever rules/laws they want but, YOU HAVE A CHOICE. Just like you can go to jail and they can take your freedom but they can NEVER take your soul, your inner being...

Cheesegreater's example did present a choice. I don't see why you would feel the need to present a different color, it defeats the purpose of the entire exercise.

I think I'm "the guy above," but I'm not sure. The government does have some control over free will, whether or not we like to admit it. Sure, you say you have a choice by choosing to go to jail, but maybe they won't send you to jail. Maybe they just kill you instead if you go against them.

Go with the government or die. That doesn't sound like free will to me.

I bet that sounded like some crazed conspiracy theorist going "The government controls you!!!!" I don't mean it like that.

[Bundahead]

Inner Eulogy, i can tell that you feel strongly about this. Maybe you see black and white while others see shades of grey. I tend to get irritated sometimes when things are reduced to grey. But this is one of those instenses where grey is probably okay for the moment. Its also one of those subjects that a persons opinion on the matter can change from day to day. A very valid point i'm recieving from us all is that free will can be partially controled by authority figures. Yes, we can cling to our virtues to the very end, even it means pissing off the authorities that be and risking our own lives. (martyrdom) or we can put our free will on the back burner in those situations in order to save ourselves from the consequences. In those moments you are using your free will for another reason, you have by this point abandoned your original purpose and moved on to another task: saving yourself from possible harm. This moves a person from a logical state of mind to a state of fear and the decisions this person makes will be dramatically altered now that he's scared. Now, as for the "delusion", that was something i said, i didn't say it was because of the government, I said that based on the fact that the type of changes in the world, which i seek, would have to also be sought out by many many individuals and to unite everyone's free will to work towards the same goal seems... impossible....but i never give up hope and sometimes i think others look at that as a delusion of mine, shit sometimes I feel its a delusion of mine, hence the comments i made in earlier posts about it. Upon innitiating this thread, i already assumed the opinions would vary widely, but that if we are serious about making longlasting, positive changes to society then we will have to start on a basic level (as i think we have done here) and reconstruct how we relate to one another. Sure, there will be times that we feel our own understanding of matters are superior to others, but always bear in mind that we (humans) progress on our own timetable. A higher state of existance can be achieved if we recognize the process of enlightenment takes time, and that some will progess faster than others, some will understand with ease, while others will have pitfalls and thick walls to navigate. We shouldn't get frustrated with these people, nor should we try to drive the information into them. Give a person fertile soil to stand on and a seed of truth. Eventually they will plant that seed and it will then mature at its own pace. No amount of coaxing will make that seedling grow, only nature. So we might should embrace anyone who finds this thread and is open enough to share how they feel. Silly as it may seem at the moment, this message board could very well be the fertile soil; and this particular thread, the seed.

[Inner_Eulogy]

Cheesegreater's example did present a choice. I don't see why you would feel the need to present a different color, it defeats the purpose of the entire exercise.

I think I'm "the guy above," but I'm not sure. The government does have some control over free will, whether or not we like to admit it. Sure, you say you have a choice by choosing to go to jail, but maybe they won't send you to jail. Maybe they just kill you instead if you go against them.

Go with the government or die. That doesn't sound like free will to me.

I bet that sounded like some crazed conspiracy theorist going "The government controls you!!!!" I don't mean it like that.

Well, maybe they jail you maybe they control you....you just DON'T SEEM TO GET IT!!!............<sigh> AGAIN, you're opinion of what free will means and what it truly does are a tad different. I'm not saying you CHOOSE to go to jail and yes, they can shoot you or throw you in jail or tell you to abide by their laws/rules. Free will means you are not physically or mentally bound from making whateveer decision you want. If what you were saying is correct, then there wouldn't be crime to begin with if the government controlled a person's free will. You're still thinking from inside the little box left over from a christmas present nobody wanted and it got re-wrapped like 5 times and eventually left in a Salvation Army drop box.

[Inner_Eulogy]

Inner Eulogy, i can tell that you feel strongly about this. Maybe you see black and white while others see shades of grey. I tend to get irritated sometimes when things are reduced to grey. But this is one of those instenses where grey is probably okay for the moment. Its also one of those subjects that a persons opinion on the matter can change from day to day. A very valid point i'm recieving from us all is that free will can be partially controled by authority figures. Yes, we can cling to our virtues to the very end, even it means pissing off the authorities that be and risking our own lives. (martyrdom) or we can put our free will on the back burner in those situations in order to save ourselves from the consequences. In those moments you are using your free will for another reason, you have by this point abandoned your original purpose and moved on to another task: saving yourself from possible harm. This moves a person from a logical state of mind to a state of fear and the decisions this person makes will be dramatically altered now that he's scared. Now, as for the "delusion", that was something i said, i didn't say it was because of the government, I said that based on the fact that the type of changes in the world, which i seek, would have to also be sought out by many many individuals and to unite everyone's free will to work towards the same goal seems... impossible....but i never give up hope and sometimes i think others look at that as a delusion of mine, shit sometimes I feel its a delusion of mine, hence the comments i made in earlier posts about it. Upon innitiating this thread, i already assumed the opinions would vary widely, but that if we are serious about making longlasting, positive changes to society then we will have to start on a basic level (as i think we have done here) and reconstruct how we relate to one another. Sure, there will be times that we feel our own understanding of matters are superior to others, but always bear in mind that we (humans) progress on our own timetable. A higher state of existance can be achieved if we recognize the process of enlightenment takes time, and that some will progess faster than others, some will understand with ease, while others will have pitfalls and thick walls to navigate. We shouldn't get frustrated with these people, nor should we try to drive the information into them. Give a person fertile soil to stand on and a seed of truth. Eventually they will plant that seed and it will then mature at its own pace. No amount of coaxing will make that seedling grow, only nature. So we might should embrace anyone who finds this thread and is open enough to share how they feel. Silly as it may seem at the moment, this message board could very well be the fertile soil; and this particular thread, the seed.

Again, I think the problem here is you two are speaking of FREEDOM. While I am talking about free will, "the ability to make a CONSCIOUS DECISION". As simple as that. I understand what you are both saying but I truly believe you're talking more along the lines of freedom, not free will. You do not have the freedom or right to go rob a bank or murder somebody for instance because a) it's against the law and b) it is immoral (or at least that which we are taught). YES, I agree these things do and will reflect and mold the decision of 99% of the population and what they choose to do because of the consequences....this DOES NOT MEAN that you do not have the free will to make a conscious decision of choosing any of the above to begin with. As in reference to the song, angels were not allowed free will to make a conscious decision, they are bound by their nature. To be human means god gave us the ability to consciously choose whatever path we want...FREE WILL, your WILL is FREE to MAKE YOUR OWN CHOICE, regardless of benefit or consequence...ya' dig?

[dirkz]

Well, maybe they jail you maybe they control you....you just DON'T SEEM TO GET IT!!!............<sigh> AGAIN, you're opinion of what free will means and what it truly does are a tad different. I'm not saying you CHOOSE to go to jail and yes, they can shoot you or throw you in jail or tell you to abide by their laws/rules. Free will means you are not physically or mentally bound from making whateveer decision you want. If what you were saying is correct, then there wouldn't be crime to begin with if the government controlled a person's free will. You're still thinking from inside the little box left over from a christmas present nobody wanted and it got re-wrapped like 5 times and eventually left in a Salvation Army drop box.

Just because I don't see it your way doesn't mean I "don't seem to get it." It's an opinion forum, bro. Lay off.

I do understand what you're saying, that free will is being able to make whatever decision you want. I'm just saying that sometimes your options become severly limited. You mentioned that free will is the ability to make your own choice, regardless of benefit or consequence. True. But I must point out that the benefits and consequences plays into every decision you make. If they didn't, you decision would be random. It is HUMAN NATURE to do what's best for yourself. So, these days, free will is driven by human nature. The two are almost indistinguishable. I hope you can see my point on this, because it's been my argument all along. Yes, your definition of free will may be correct, but in this modern Bill-Of-Rights era, it is different.

I may have been a bit dramatic or overexaggerated in my last post. The government may not completely control your decision, but they can greatly, greatly influence it.

[Bundahead]

Again, I think the problem here is you two are speaking of FREEDOM. While I am talking about free will, "the ability to make a CONSCIOUS DECISION". As simple as that. I understand what you are both saying but I truly believe you're talking more along the lines of freedom, not free will. You do not have the freedom or right to go rob a bank or murder somebody for instance because a) it's against the law and b) it is immoral (or at least that which we are taught). YES, I agree these things do and will reflect and mold the decision of 99% of the population and what they choose to do because of the consequences....this DOES NOT MEAN that you do not have the free will to make a conscious decision of choosing any of the above to begin with. As in reference to the song, angels were not allowed free will to make a conscious decision, they are bound by their nature. To be human means god gave us the ability to consciously choose whatever path we want...FREE WILL, your WILL is FREE to MAKE YOUR OWN CHOICE, regardless of benefit or consequence...ya' dig?

Yes, i dig that you are having a hard time understanding that no one is arguing that point, except you. Maybe you should re-read the posts here and get a grip on what everyone is saying...b/c I agree with you to a certain level, but it looks like you're having a hard time digesting the opinions that other people have..be careful though, You can argue this point till your blue in the face but the reality is that a year from now, or two days from now, you could pull up this thread and feel very different. (I know this from experience and will probably be doing this tomarrow ;)
Maybe the others who posted here are confusing free will and freedom. I can't speak for them all that i can do is tell you that i didn't get that impression from their posts to the same exstent that you did. But as for me, I am not speaking of freedom, i am speaking of Free will, however intricately intertwined the two absolutely are.If you read my last few posts you should have seen that i said ultimately the same thing regarding free will and it being your own choice. I did delve into that a little further by giving reasons why a person might choose not to go with the way he really feels b/c of exstenuating circumstances. I don't want this thread to jade you by facilitating a loss of faith in mankind. I don't mean to exhaust you. I only wanted to see if we were capable of overcoming the initial bounderies that human nature presents; and, I count the inability to hear what others have to say as one of those boundaries that we must first cross before we can ever get anywhere. Don't get me wrong. I'm not saying we should just accept ignorance or tolerate it but when we see evidence that a person is grappling with the idea of their own humanity, as we see in the other posts in here, then we shouldn't force feed, or put our own opinions on a pedestal. Referencing the song once again it speaks of cutting it all right in two and how we've used our free will to do so. Do we see evidence of that happening here? Are we dividing ourselves over fundamentals of an opinion? Are we using our free will to continually argue a point that can easily have differnet meanings to different people? Cuz, LOOK, i guess i'm do'in it here too! Damnit! You know, our entire history of the entire world is ravaged by peoples inabitlity to get over their differences in opinion and find a way to work beyond them. I wish there was a way to do that. I know, I know, we will always have differences in opinions, and let's face it, one opinion can be better than the rest b/c its based more on facts, but that is still no matter in a world where the best of opinions are largely ignored. Would not a person from, say, Iraq have a wildly different view on free will than ours? And to argue a point with this person would probably be to further devide us in our differences. What i'm speaking of now is the oppisite of that; using our free will to unite us by choosing to bear in mind the nature that all people are bound to. Just like me right now...the air's getting thin up here atop my tower of soapboxes, so I apologize if i'm just repeating the cycle.

[dirkz]

I kinda skimmed that cuz it was hard to read, but yea, i agree, we probably aren't going to reach an agreement here, humans will always disagree. That's cool though, I like hearing others thoughts and ideas, even if I disagree on occasion. Everyone in this thread was raised in a different area, exposed to varying degrees of humanity and taught to believe different things. I know I live in a tiny little midwestern town, so my view of human nature is probably a lot different than someone who lives in a city. It just happens that way.

By all means, though, continue discussion. It makes my day to read others ideas and be able to debate them (in a respectable manner, of course).

[Bundahead]

I kinda skimmed that cuz it was hard to read, but yea, i agree, we probably aren't going to reach an agreement here, humans will always disagree. That's cool though, I like hearing others thoughts and ideas, even if I disagree on occasion. Everyone in this thread was raised in a different area, exposed to varying degrees of humanity and taught to believe different things. I know I live in a tiny little midwestern town, so my view of human nature is probably a lot different than someone who lives in a city. It just happens that way.

By all means, though, continue discussion. It makes my day to read others ideas and be able to debate them (in a respectable manner, of course).

yeah, lol, i guess that post was complicated. I can't say that i would have read it thoroughly had someone else posted it. But i completely agree with you on the location thing...I live in Middle Georgia (born and raised) I love it b/c its home, its beautiful, and where the things that are important to me abide (family and cherry blossom trees) but, I can't even begin to explain what its like to live here among the deep rooted prejudice, rebel flags, record number of churches (who alienate you in social settings if you do not believe) and chosen ignorance. It can be hard to keep your head above water and a grip on your personal beliefs. I know this has affected my perception and understanding of human nature and free will. And, again, i'm so sorry for expecting you all to read the books i wrote earlier ;)

[Inner_Eulogy]

yeah, lol, i guess that post was complicated. I can't say that i would have read it thoroughly had someone else posted it. But i completely agree with you on the location thing...I live in Middle Georgia (born and raised) I love it b/c its home, its beautiful, and where the things that are important to me abide (family and cherry blossom trees) but, I can't even begin to explain what its like to live here among the deep rooted prejudice, rebel flags, record number of churches (who alienate you in social settings if you do not believe) and chosen ignorance. It can be hard to keep your head above water and a grip on your personal beliefs. I know this has affected my perception and understanding of human nature and free will. And, again, i'm so sorry for expecting you all to read the books i wrote earlier ;)

Not sure if it matters but, I'm kind of multifaceted as far as how I was raised. I grew up in suburbs of the midwest, lived for 8yrs down south throughout my teenage years, have lived in the city back up north and well as in Vegas. So therefore I understand and can relate with all sides as far as the down south and the big city to the suburbs. I've probably gone through 4 different personalities as a kid growing up from being a little troubled psycho basket case teenager to the wigger with lines cut in my eyebrows with a flat top haircut with designs in it, I've been a skater type with head shaved all around the sides and back but really long and in a pony tail from the top, I've gotten in trouble with the law multiple times as a child, I've gone red neck trucking in the mud and bon fire parties in the woods, I've had sever depression and anger problems as a child doing all sorts of drugs and now at 29yr old I'm just me, a regular joe with many many life experiences and a great father to a 4yr old son. I guess what I'm saying is I can understand and relate to many things and many different types of people because I've either had that mindset at one time or can truly grasp the concept of it. I always thought I'd be a great teenage counselor...who knows, somehow I ended up working behind a desk doing collections and managing accounts.

[dirkz]

Do you feel like you seen enough different things to understand human nature? I know I've never been out of my own town for more than 2 weeks at a time, so everything I've said thus far is knowledge gained through reading or personal speculation. I doubt I've even scratched the surface of it, personally.

[Inner_Eulogy]

Do you feel like you seen enough different things to understand human nature? I know I've never been out of my own town for more than 2 weeks at a time, so everything I've said thus far is knowledge gained through reading or personal speculation. I doubt I've even scratched the surface of it, personally.

Oh not at all. I don't think anyone could ever truly master human nature. I mean, I haven't even come close to mastering my damn self..lol. I just have many life experiences, think of myself as intelligent and can somewhat better understand some things better than others. But I admit to be a hypocrite because it's always harder to take your own advice than it is to give it. For instance, I'm very good at talking people through relationship problems as I have a very good sense for that kind of thing and what works best (if I'm not involved of course) but, god for bid could I ever freaking take my own advice. I was with a girl for nearly over 7yrs and we have a almost 4yr old son. Things were great for the first few years and slowly things fell apart and we stuck it through as it got worse and worse until I finally found out just a few months ago she had been cheating on me for a few months with her ex-boyfriend. She now lives in her own place and as you can imagine, I was absolutely crushed...I know she is truly to blame for her choice but, at the same time I'm extremely conflicted because I feel so much guilt after I realized how much of an ass I was being to her for such a long time. I would put her down if she did something or didn't do something, I lied to her about doing drugs, I would feel unloved from her so I would talk to other women to get a feeling of being wanted, even visited my ex-girlfriend once but I never did anything. These are all things I started doing long before she ever finally stopped caring, and rightfully so I guess. It took this experience for me to realize how much I truly love her and have made so many changes in these last few months to become a better person. Problem is, I want now what she doesn't. She feels the need to prove to herself that she can do it on her own and become more independant while I sit her practically begging for another chance. Right now, she only wants friendship and time and space, and for nearly 3mos now I still haven't been able to give that to her because I'm so utterly heartbroken and I need her back in my life but I am consistently pushing her away by bringing up anything related to relationship stuff because right now she feels a strong need to work on herself and do things on her own but it's killing me at the same time. Today will now be only 2days that I haven't called her or texted. I'm trying so hard too. It doesn't make it easier either that we ended up sleeping together on the 4th but according to her that was ONLY because she was drunk. I wonder if I'd be reading into it too much to think that means she does still have feelings for me but is afraid to admit that to me let alone herself. So, as you can see....do I understand human nature...somewhat, can I explain it...fairly well, am I any good at it myself...FUCK NO

Sorry, I just vented all sorts of shit...

[dirkz]

Christ, man, I can't imagine......

We're all hypocrites. I know I do the same stuff, giving advice, telling people what they should do, but then I don't even heed it myself. Sometimes my girlfriend gets in these moods where she doesn't want to talk to anyone for a few days, and I get kinda frustrated. After a while I realize that by being angry, I myself neglect to even try to communicate with her. Then I get angry at myself for being a hypocritical bastard.

Nothing compared to what you just posted, but still, I know what you mean.

[The Holy Gift]

unfortunately because as a species we are so unevolved, and all of different mind and consciousness...i think its impossible to completely understand the human condition. until we evolve to the point of 1 consciousness, so that there is no need for speech, only telepathic communication, no need to ask for someones thoughts because you would be able to read their mind, understanding all the actions of another human being is a pointless venture.

[dirkz]

Do you really consider humans unevolved? We are the most sophisticated species on this planet. You do make a good point though, that we are impossible to understand. The human brain is so complicated and intricate, that until we discover its secrets, we'll never understand eachother. I don't think we need to become a unified consciousness to understand eachother. We just need to understand our own individual brains, because once you know how something works, it's much easier to fix it.

[Bundahead]

I'm betting many of you have already read about Carl Jung's research, but if not, check this out:
http://www.cgjungpage.org/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=852&Itemid=41
We (humans) may not be able to completely understand ourselves but reading this reminds me that we are not bound to the Freudisms that reign supreme in our society today (especially western civilization) I do notice alot of "Tool Terminology" mixed within the words of Jung and it often gives me chills when i come across them. So give it a read if you havn't already (warning: its 115 pages)
I can't even begin to tell you all how much i have loved this ongoing conversation. Each one of us has admitted to our own hypocrasy and short comings, or in a more general term: our dark side...in a sense, we've recognized and admitted to the existence of our shadow and i think that is powerful. I'm willing to bet that most of us were raised to eliminate that side of ourselves and maybe that goes against the grain. As a result, human evolution has been slowed to a snails pace (or even haulted). But for some reason, today, i hear the engine of evolution warming back up. You see, we've never met one another before, we come from the farthest reaches of the continent, miles away from one another, and yet we all seem to be in the same stage of development: Questioning the status quo, taking personal inventory, and trying to understand those things pushed into the unconciuous that effect us without us even us having the least little knowlegde of its existence. Sometimes i think that, over the past couple of generations, some evolution of the human mind has occured b/c i meet so many people, from so many walks of life, who are talking/thinking about the same things as us.

[Bundahead]

Oh not at all. I don't think anyone could ever truly master human nature. I mean, I haven't even come close to mastering my damn self..lol. I just have many life experiences, think of myself as intelligent and can somewhat better understand some things better than others. But I admit to be a hypocrite because it's always harder to take your own advice than it is to give it. For instance, I'm very good at talking people through relationship problems as I have a very good sense for that kind of thing and what works best (if I'm not involved of course) but, god for bid could I ever freaking take my own advice. I was with a girl for nearly over 7yrs and we have a almost 4yr old son. Things were great for the first few years and slowly things fell apart and we stuck it through as it got worse and worse until I finally found out just a few months ago she had been cheating on me for a few months with her ex-boyfriend. She now lives in her own place and as you can imagine, I was absolutely crushed...I know she is truly to blame for her choice but, at the same time I'm extremely conflicted because I feel so much guilt after I realized how much of an ass I was being to her for such a long time. I would put her down if she did something or didn't do something, I lied to her about doing drugs, I would feel unloved from her so I would talk to other women to get a feeling of being wanted, even visited my ex-girlfriend once but I never did anything. These are all things I started doing long before she ever finally stopped caring, and rightfully so I guess. It took this experience for me to realize how much I truly love her and have made so many changes in these last few months to become a better person. Problem is, I want now what she doesn't. She feels the need to prove to herself that she can do it on her own and become more independant while I sit her practically begging for another chance. Right now, she only wants friendship and time and space, and for nearly 3mos now I still haven't been able to give that to her because I'm so utterly heartbroken and I need her back in my life but I am consistently pushing her away by bringing up anything related to relationship stuff because right now she feels a strong need to work on herself and do things on her own but it's killing me at the same time. Today will now be only 2days that I haven't called her or texted. I'm trying so hard too. It doesn't make it easier either that we ended up sleeping together on the 4th but according to her that was ONLY because she was drunk. I wonder if I'd be reading into it too much to think that means she does still have feelings for me but is afraid to admit that to me let alone herself. So, as you can see....do I understand human nature...somewhat, can I explain it...fairly well, am I any good at it myself...FUCK NO

Sorry, I just vented all sorts of shit...


whenever you think of calling her or texting her, post here instead!! I'm so sorry you are having to go through that. I can totally empathize and reading your posts reminds me of that ache that hurts so bad. Maybe time will have its own healing effect. And seriously, if you havn't read the information i posted the link to before, READ IT. I can't promise you it is something you'll gain from b/c everyone's perception is so different. But, you might.
BTW: The whole time i read your post i kept hearing "Pushit" plalying in my head.

[Inner_Eulogy]

whenever you think of calling her or texting her, post here instead!! I'm so sorry you are having to go through that. I can totally empathize and reading your posts reminds me of that ache that hurts so bad. Maybe time will have its own healing effect. And seriously, if you havn't read the information i posted the link to before, READ IT. I can't promise you it is something you'll gain from b/c everyone's perception is so different. But, you might.
BTW: The whole time i read your post i kept hearing "Pushit" plalying in my head.

Unfortunately I do not have the time to read all of that, however, I am somewhat familiar with Carl Jung's philosophy. I thank you both for your input and I again just yesterday managed to push her away even more by asking about how it happened (her cheating on me) as well as why can't we try to work things out talk. And as she has repeatedly done, she got pissed and said I'm on my last straw as far as that goes and that I'm not capable of just being friends. To an extent, she's exactly right. I do want more than just friendship, I feel like a fool for even still wanting her back after the immense pain she's caused me but, I battle with also knowing it was my fault that she felt the need to fulfill elsewhere what I wasn't providing to her myself at home. As the old saying goes "you never know what you truly have until you lose it". I could not bare to know if she ever started dating someone else, I selfishly feel somewhat that she owes it to me to at least give US a shot, ya' know. I was her very first, she used to love me with her soul and was willing to do anything for me at a time many many years ago, we were together for over 7yrs, we have a son together. I'll be damned if somebody else takes that away from me. I love her with all my heart and am prepared to give her my all this time...I fear is it too late? I believe I would honestly end up making a very very bad choice if I were to find out she was ever again with another man, not necessarily sexually but starting a family or dating someone else. I don't know what else to say but, I feel that I deserve to get my family back together, even though I see the reality isn't so. I can only hope and pray (generically speaking) that if I can allow her the time and space and not push for a relationship that things will heal between us and I will once again win her heart....I feel so empty without her...

[dirkz]

I'm betting many of you have already read about Carl Jung's research, but if not, check this out:
http://www.cgjungpage.org/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=852&Itemid=41
We (humans) may not be able to completely understand ourselves but reading this reminds me that we are not bound to the Freudisms that reign supreme in our society today (especially western civilization) I do notice alot of "Tool Terminology" mixed within the words of Jung and it often gives me chills when i come across them. So give it a read if you havn't already (warning: its 115 pages)
I can't even begin to tell you all how much i have loved this ongoing conversation. Each one of us has admitted to our own hypocrasy and short comings, or in a more general term: our dark side...in a sense, we've recognized and admitted to the existence of our shadow and i think that is powerful. I'm willing to bet that most of us were raised to eliminate that side of ourselves and maybe that goes against the grain. As a result, human evolution has been slowed to a snails pace (or even haulted). But for some reason, today, i hear the engine of evolution warming back up. You see, we've never met one another before, we come from the farthest reaches of the continent, miles away from one another, and yet we all seem to be in the same stage of development: Questioning the status quo, taking personal inventory, and trying to understand those things pushed into the unconciuous that effect us without us even us having the least little knowlegde of its existence. Sometimes i think that, over the past couple of generations, some evolution of the human mind has occured b/c i meet so many people, from so many walks of life, who are talking/thinking about the same things as us.

I do intend to read that, however right now I already have a backlog of books to read. (AP English for my senior year =P). If I have time, I'll check it out and thanks for posting it.

Inner_Eulogy, I'm feeling for ya, man. I know that feeling whenever you're being pushed away and you can't do anything about it. It sucks. I hope it works out for you.

[Bundahead]

Unfortunately I do not have the time to read all of that, however, I am somewhat familiar with Carl Jung's philosophy. I thank you both for your input and I again just yesterday managed to push her away even more by asking about how it happened (her cheating on me) as well as why can't we try to work things out talk. And as she has repeatedly done, she got pissed and said I'm on my last straw as far as that goes and that I'm not capable of just being friends. To an extent, she's exactly right. I do want more than just friendship, I feel like a fool for even still wanting her back after the immense pain she's caused me but, I battle with also knowing it was my fault that she felt the need to fulfill elsewhere what I wasn't providing to her myself at home. As the old saying goes "you never know what you truly have until you lose it". I could not bare to know if she ever started dating someone else, I selfishly feel somewhat that she owes it to me to at least give US a shot, ya' know. I was her very first, she used to love me with her soul and was willing to do anything for me at a time many many years ago, we were together for over 7yrs, we have a son together. I'll be damned if somebody else takes that away from me. I love her with all my heart and am prepared to give her my all this time...I fear is it too late? I believe I would honestly end up making a very very bad choice if I were to find out she was ever again with another man, not necessarily sexually but starting a family or dating someone else. I don't know what else to say but, I feel that I deserve to get my family back together, even though I see the reality isn't so. I can only hope and pray (generically speaking) that if I can allow her the time and space and not push for a relationship that things will heal between us and I will once again win her heart....I feel so empty without her...

In times like yours its so hard to know what's best to do with yourself, thoughts, feelings, wants, and needs. And during these times your mind gets so crowded with tangled thoughts that they never can be vocalized with words that convey exactly what you intended; and that sucks cuz I'm sure there's so much you want to say to her, but when she's not open to hear it, its like shutting the lid of an overflowing container. I am sorry to hear that she doesn't want to talk about relationship issues. I never understand why people think that after a long intense relationship they can easily revert back to the friendship stage. That's so hard, nearly impossible to do, and is definitely something that takes time and cooperation. Just because you want to talk with her about all these feelings your having shouldn't mean that your treading on thin ice...the last straw. As in any relationship, friendly or romantic, if there are any elephants in the room you need to recognize them and then learn to become comfortable with them. It isn't fair to you to judge your own actions so harshly. And it probably isn't good for you to ignore what will be best for you in the long run, but ain't that easier preached than followed! That being said, I don't care how crappy you were, she gave up and moved on without discussing it with you first. I am sure you won't do anything stupid to yourself or anyone else if you do find out she's with someone, again, it would be cheating you. I don't care what you've done in the past that would make you feel as if you deserve this: you don't. I don't have to know you too personally to know that you've interalized this entire situation resulting in you thinking you and you alone can correct this, followed by an unrelenting desire to regain something from your past. Let's say maybe she does decide she wants to be with you....is that REALLY what you should do? Would you really be able to trust her? Living with resentment in your heart is not easily avoided when you have been cheated on...that's a biggy in my book, a major "no! no!" . You might think getting back together with her will eliminate all your pain but it likely will not...its a band-aid and over time it might fall off and the anger with her you should be feeling now will resurface as nasty resentment. Tell me I don't know what i'm talk'en about and I'll reply with a long long story that you probably don't want to read (and won't read :). In other words, I've been there. I mean, Man!, don't lose sight of the fact that there may be someone out there that would make her pale in comparison. Don't sell yourself short!

[Bundahead]

OMG dude i just re-read the first post you wrote about the relationship and realized that not only did she cheat on you , she did it over a few months time!!??? Somehow i missed that part and all this time i thought it was a one night stand, which maybe would have been a lil more excusable...no way man..no way I could ever trust that person again, for months just lyin every day?... yeah, what was that you were sayin about free will? Nothing MADE her do that. She had every oportunity to use her free will and ...i guess she did, she just chose something that went against the image she'd given you of herself. She must be really good at manipulating folks, cuz she's got you seriously feeling guilty for MAKING her cheat on you. I can admit to manipulating a few guys along the way but it always made me feel guilty to warp their perception like that. They looked like lost puppies as they apologized for things that weren't their fault and were taken to places they didn't want to go..but.She's taken it to A Whole Noth'a Level. Wow.

[The Holy Gift]

inner, i have to agree with bunda here....im not the manipulatable type....and from what ive read of most of your posts....you dont seem to be either....so i think youll pull through this....maybe with a new perspective, who knows? i dont know what i would do if i lost my son or fiance...so i cant say i know how you feel....but hang in there man. im not gonna say "whatever is meant to happen will happen", cuz you and i know neither of us really subscribe to that school of thought. its just a shame that her choices unfortunately affect you so much, and she takes no head of that. she should realize that when your living with someone, have a child with someone, that every choice they make affects you. unfortunately its both positive and negative....and unfortunately not everyone is unselfish enough to realize that.

[Bundahead]

Do you really consider humans unevolved? We are the most sophisticated species on this planet. You do make a good point though, that we are impossible to understand. The human brain is so complicated and intricate, that until we discover its secrets, we'll never understand eachother. I don't think we need to become a unified consciousness to understand eachother. We just need to understand our own individual brains, because once you know how something works, it's much easier to fix it.

Very cool posts Dirkz and Holy Gift. You've taken the conversation to a place that i didn't figure on. Interesting Dirkz: You say that we should give up trying to understand one another, becoming unified in our conciousness, and instead we should focus on understanding ourselves. I'm not sure if that is "the" answer, but atleast you are thinking outside the box. You know, the box; the tiny little box human beings have created to keep us from stepping out of line. We are held captive to this box thoughout our lives. Sure, sure, sure, it is within our free will that we find the permission to step out of the box but its easier said than done when our entire social structure depends on it. And here again, your location on this planet probably plays a part in how small of a box you might be confined to. I agree wholeheartedly that we MUST first get in tune with ourselves before we can ever begin understanding one another. But, Is that the only other option? I wonder, are there any other ways to approach human nature that might help us solve the problem of "cutting it all right in two"

[dirkz]

To clarify slightly, I believe a unified conciousness would benefit humanity. But that's not happening for a while. People these days say they are trying to help other people, trying to benefit humanity, etc. My thought is, how can you understand and help other people, when most of those people don't understand themselves? How can you express your thoughts, ideas, opinions, feelings and emotions, when you don't even understand what they are, where they came from, and why you feel that way? I know it sounds selfish, but if people got in tune with themselves, first, it could go along way toward the embetterment (is that a word?) of humanity.

Food for thought. Peace.


EDIT: And for the record, this is quickly becoming one of my favorite discussion threads.

[Bundahead]

To clarify slightly, I believe a unified conciousness would benefit humanity. But that's not happening for a while. People these days say they are trying to help other people, trying to benefit humanity, etc. My thought is, how can you understand and help other people, when most of those people don't understand themselves? How can you express your thoughts, ideas, opinions, feelings and emotions, when you don't even understand what they are, where they came from, and why you feel that way? I know it sounds selfish, but if people got in tune with themselves, first, it could go along way toward the embetterment (is that a word?) of humanity.

Food for thought. Peace.


EDIT: And for the record, this is quickly becoming one of my favorite discussion threads.

love your use of suffixes and prefixes!! lol (embetterment sounds like a good word to me :P)
This has been a conversation that I've been having for a long time now. I have friends that call me up out of the blue to tell me about their latest thoughts on the subject. One might call and say,
"I was thinking about [this] today and I couldn't wait to get to a place so that I could call you...there's nobody around me that i can tell this to"
I HATE that they feel they only have me as an outlet for those types of things that go through their heads. My point is that they feel like they have to be very careful who they talk to about this b/c many people treat them as if they are wierd, or act as if the subject is taboo; and it urks me that this coversation is still being swept under the rug. That's why I try to keep the conversation going; even if its just in my little world around me.
Now, I've been chew'in on your food for thought and I came up with this......
How the fuck does a senior in highschool have enough maturity and insight to approach this subject as you have done? I can remember my favorite teacher, Ms. Hall (English, Drama, and Literature) I took every one of her classes that i could possibly take. She was like a magnet of postitve energy and it drew me to her every semester. I would spend half of my days in her classes. There was this element about her that i loved but at the time didn't understand. 10 years later, I look back and now I know what it was that drew me to her. She always tried her best to make us think bigger; she wanted us to evolve into more peaceful, loving, understanding individuals. If there were issues between students she would make them sit together and brain storm on ways to resolve it among themselves; which normally ended up with them talking and laughing. I was WAY to immature at the time to understand her methods; I was oblivious and misinformed; guided by my parents' and the church's powerful southern baptist influence. That made for a very confused teenager and young adult as I had to push my doubts and questions into the forgetful background. At the time it was apathy that governed my life; but only out of a nessecity to eliminate the confusion. To this day I'm still trying to clean up the mess it all created in my head.
And there is absolutely no argument that I can find that trumps your point. We DO need to be more intouch with ourselves b4 we can function collectively. My experience with Ms. Hall is a perfect example of that. No matter how much she tried to get it in our heads that we needed to learn to work with one another using compasion and understanding; we didn't fully get the message (or atleast I didn't). She didn't understand at the time that all her efforts were being destroyed by other major influences in my life. I didn't have a clear view of who I was. I see now what i couldn't see then b/c I have come to a better place with my own self-awareness. As I'm thinking of her now, i realize that I miss her. She would have been exstatic to have a student like you.

And BTW: PLEASE forgive me for writing these long-ass posts..I can't seem to relay anything in short form.

[dirkz]

Haha, thanks for that Bunda, no matter how long it was. I kinda take pride in being smart and mature for my age. (maybe too much pride sometimes. But that's up for debate.) If only there was a "debate" portion of the ACT....

I have a similar teacher, Mrs. Hill, a Spanish teacher that taught me much more than Spanish. Our class discussions were epic, ranging from teenage crime to how feces determine your health (it's true =P). The thing about her was, she didn't care if we were learning Spanish, as long as we were using our brains, debating, participating in class, ya know? I *hate* classes w/o student discussion. Because, as you can see from this forum, I seem to get a natural high from debate and discussion.

Tell your friends to speak their minds to whoever will listen, not just you. It'd be better for them and the people around them to spread their ideas, get people to listen, and get other people wondering and talking too. Problem with America = Not enough personal insight, if you follow. No one thinks for themself, and if more people do that, it'll be better for this country than anything. It's a sad state of affairs in this country when your friends would be considered "weird" for actively discussing anything. People no longer participate in society, they do what society dictates they should do.

That was one of my longer posts, too. Must be something in this thread.

[Bundahead]

I love this thread. I love this discussion
I wish it would go on forever....

Follow Along the bend with Me;
On,
To the Great Water’s Eternity.
No More,
No Less,
Just You Will be.
Before the Complicated,
Within Simplicity.

[dirkz]

Where'd Inner Eulogy go?

I hope your problems are working themselves out, Inner. We could use you to debate with us, like the good ole days. (i.e. last week.)

[Bundahead]

Where'd Inner Eulogy go?

I hope your problems are working themselves out, Inner. We could use you to debate with us, like the good ole days. (i.e. last week.)

uhmmm, yeah...I, uh.... I might of pissed him off...not sure though..

[Bundahead]

uhmmm, yeah...I, uh.... I might of pissed him off...not sure though..

i Really hope I didn't make him mad...cuz i didn't mean to

[Bundahead]

Is our free will inhibited by the views instilled in us as children? When we were in the childhood years of our lives, most of our parents did the best that they could to pass down the same morals as their own. But now that we're adults (or nearly so) its plain to see that those morals can be distorted and down right wrong. A child whoes born today in the middle east is probably being taught to hate "the infadels" (this war is literally breeding terrorism). A child whoes born today in America will, most likely, be taught the fairytale (bullshit) version of American History. A child being born by a christain very well may be taught to believe that they are supreme; that they follow the only true path to redemption. A black child being born in America today has a good chance of being taought to hate white people; and the same goes for a white child being taought to hate blacks. Let's take me for an example; here are the inaccurate morals my parents tried to instill in me: Christains and only christrains go to heaven; everyone else is going to a place called hell and all other "so-called" religions were cults. Black people can't spend the night at our house or swim in our swimming pool, Obey the law w/o question, and conservative republicans are the moral thread of our country. I went to church everytime the doors were open. My parents thought of themselves as speaking form a higher authority and as an impressionable little girl I believed them.
Has anyone else had these same types of experiences? Who else has spent a portion of their lives untangling the mistruths imparted upon them by their parents? And lastly, How does this effect our free will and the tendencies of human nature throughout the rest of our lives?

[dirkz]

No offense, Bunda, seriously, but when I read the first section of that post, I couldn't help but think of those all just being blatant stereotypes, another shining achievement of America =P.

For the most part, I think my parents kept my childhood free of 'mistruths.' I'm so thankful for that, since I've been able to develop my own opinions and ideas. I like that, since it imparts more individualism on me, rather than me mirroring my parents ideals. I'm able to actually discuss my thoughts and views when they are brought up, rather than saying "That's what my parents told me."

Again, no offense intended by anything I just wrote. Sometimes I say stuff that I don't realize will piss people off.

[Inner_Eulogy]

love your use of suffixes and prefixes!! lol (embetterment sounds like a good word to me :P)
This has been a conversation that I've been having for a long time now. I have friends that call me up out of the blue to tell me about their latest thoughts on the subject. One might call and say,
"I was thinking about [this] today and I couldn't wait to get to a place so that I could call you...there's nobody around me that i can tell this to"
I HATE that they feel they only have me as an outlet for those types of things that go through their heads. My point is that they feel like they have to be very careful who they talk to about this b/c many people treat them as if they are wierd, or act as if the subject is taboo; and it urks me that this coversation is still being swept under the rug. That's why I try to keep the conversation going; even if its just in my little world around me.
Now, I've been chew'in on your food for thought and I came up with this......
How the fuck does a senior in highschool have enough maturity and insight to approach this subject as you have done? I can remember my favorite teacher, Ms. Hall (English, Drama, and Literature) I took every one of her classes that i could possibly take. She was like a magnet of postitve energy and it drew me to her every semester. I would spend half of my days in her classes. There was this element about her that i loved but at the time didn't understand. 10 years later, I look back and now I know what it was that drew me to her. She always tried her best to make us think bigger; she wanted us to evolve into more peaceful, loving, understanding individuals. If there were issues between students she would make them sit together and brain storm on ways to resolve it among themselves; which normally ended up with them talking and laughing. I was WAY to immature at the time to understand her methods; I was oblivious and misinformed; guided by my parents' and the church's powerful southern baptist influence. That made for a very confused teenager and young adult as I had to push my doubts and questions into the forgetful background. At the time it was apathy that governed my life; but only out of a nessecity to eliminate the confusion. To this day I'm still trying to clean up the mess it all created in my head.
And there is absolutely no argument that I can find that trumps your point. We DO need to be more intouch with ourselves b4 we can function collectively. My experience with Ms. Hall is a perfect example of that. No matter how much she tried to get it in our heads that we needed to learn to work with one another using compasion and understanding; we didn't fully get the message (or atleast I didn't). She didn't understand at the time that all her efforts were being destroyed by other major influences in my life. I didn't have a clear view of who I was. I see now what i couldn't see then b/c I have come to a better place with my own self-awareness. As I'm thinking of her now, i realize that I miss her. She would have been exstatic to have a student like you.

And BTW: PLEASE forgive me for writing these long-ass posts..I can't seem to relay anything in short form.

What a special teacher, it reminds me of how I always wanted to be either a teacher or a teenage counselor.

[Inner_Eulogy]

Tell your friends to speak their minds to whoever will listen, not just you. It'd be better for them and the people around them to spread their ideas, get people to listen, and get other people wondering and talking too. Problem with America = Not enough personal insight, if you follow. No one thinks for themself, and if more people do that, it'll be better for this country than anything. It's a sad state of affairs in this country when your friends would be considered "weird" for actively discussing anything. People no longer participate in society, they do what society dictates they should do.

That was one of my longer posts, too. Must be something in this thread.

The only problem I see, not that I disagree, is that the fact of "everyone thinking for themselves" does pose a problem because everyone thinks differently and that's where the disagreements start, follow by an argument, throwing a punch, going to war and dropping bombs...if ya' catch my point. Certain people need that structure in their lives or they would be clueless of what to do. Others like to think outside the box and learn things on their own. I've always been the somewhat of a rebel and think for myself. I don't have a LOT of booksmarts as you may call it but, I'm a very intelligent person. On the flip side, if people WOULD learn to think fir themselves and be able to COMMUNICATE, COMPROMISE and RESOLVE their differences amicably, then that would be our greatest stepping stone towards a newly unified consciousness.

[Inner_Eulogy]

Where'd Inner Eulogy go?

I hope your problems are working themselves out, Inner. We could use you to debate with us, like the good ole days. (i.e. last week.)

hehe, the good ole days....I've been around. Just busy and usually aren't on over the weekends. Plus last time I had checked nobody had said anything and I was waiting in order to make a response. =-) Thank you both for your discussions and brotherly love for a fellow you know not well.

[Inner_Eulogy]

Is our free will inhibited by the views instilled in us as children? When we were in the childhood years of our lives, most of our parents did the best that they could to pass down the same morals as their own. But now that we're adults (or nearly so) its plain to see that those morals can be distorted and down right wrong. A child whoes born today in the middle east is probably being taught to hate "the infadels" (this war is literally breeding terrorism). A child whoes born today in America will, most likely, be taught the fairytale (bullshit) version of American History. A child being born by a christain very well may be taught to believe that they are supreme; that they follow the only true path to redemption. A black child being born in America today has a good chance of being taought to hate white people; and the same goes for a white child being taought to hate blacks. Let's take me for an example; here are the inaccurate morals my parents tried to instill in me: Christains and only christrains go to heaven; everyone else is going to a place called hell and all other "so-called" religions were cults. Black people can't spend the night at our house or swim in our swimming pool, Obey the law w/o question, and conservative republicans are the moral thread of our country. I went to church everytime the doors were open. My parents thought of themselves as speaking form a higher authority and as an impressionable little girl I believed them.
Has anyone else had these same types of experiences? Who else has spent a portion of their lives untangling the mistruths imparted upon them by their parents? And lastly, How does this effect our free will and the tendencies of human nature throughout the rest of our lives?

I cannot say I've experienced the same thing, luckily my parents were pretty open minded and were not racist Although when I came home when I was 14 with a black girlfriend they weren't exactly thrilled but, albeit they never said I couldn't, I guess it was just the unknown that scared them. I've always judged people by who they are, not what they are. I never understood the point in being racist. However, they really tried to be good parents but never really were, because of the way they raised me I have a horrible self image and low self esteem. My father and I have never been close and probably never will be. I've always been the black sheep of my family and anything that ever went wrong was my fault, I was stupid and I'd never become anybody decent...according to him. My mother just didn't know how to support me in my life and how to be a great influence either so I was doomed to be where I am today which in turn has put me where I am today with my ex-girlfriend...she's the best thing that ever happened to me but I'm immature, selfish and bull headed and I as I mentioned before, I realized all the things my step-dad did to me and how he treated me was exactly what I was doing to her. Don't get me wrong, it was MY free will that I didn't take control of and I should have done so had it come to light to me previously. Now it will be an uphill battle for years to try and win her love for me again and even then I may not succeed but I cannot give up on the one girl that I truly love as hard as it may be. I just truly hope that in time things will work out. Even her family has in some way shape or form told her they would dis-own her if she came back to me so that's a huge roadblock on my path as well. I just need to be able to show her that I will be her rock if her family falls through on her and that she can depend on me for anything.

[Bundahead]

No offense, Bunda, seriously, but when I read the first section of that post, I couldn't help but think of those all just being blatant stereotypes, another shining achievement of America =P.

For the most part, I think my parents kept my childhood free of 'mistruths.' I'm so thankful for that, since I've been able to develop my own opinions and ideas. I like that, since it imparts more individualism on me, rather than me mirroring my parents ideals. I'm able to actually discuss my thoughts and views when they are brought up, rather than saying "That's what my parents told me."

Again, no offense intended by anything I just wrote. Sometimes I say stuff that I don't realize will piss people off.

NO offence taken! You are right on the money...lots of it IS stereotypes..that's kinda my point. (but its not just an american thing to create stereotypes and it didn't originate here either. It was going on long before the first europeans set foot on our soil...stupid europeans! Its all their fault! They all think they're so.... hahaha jk; thought i was bout to drop some stereotypes just then didn't ya!)
I guess the reason I used those examples was b/c I'm trying to be honost with myself about where and how the stereotypes are reborn in our children, continueing the viscious cycle. Yes, it was very stereotypical of my dad to be predjudice against blacks. He fit the stereotype of the racist southern white man to a "T" On top of that, he was well aware that he fit the profile; and for some warped reason, he was PROUD of that fact. Had I not been the problem child that I was, I would have turned out to be just like him. But what about the "obediant" child. The one that openly accepts the ideals and views of their parents however inapropriate they might be. It that case, a shiny new example of the stereotype renews its existence by passing it on to the next generation. I certainly would never say that all whites in the south feed into the stereotype, nor do blacks, middle easterns, ect. But lets be honost with ourselves for a minute here. Stereotypes do exist. Some people buy into them, some people become them, and when those people have children; they perpetuate them. The stereotype is then born again. I don't think there is much we can do about the mindset of the grown folk, but at the same time I do feel the need to get into their children's heads early enough in their lives to plant that seed of truth...the one that says "think for yourself, get to know all the different kinds people in the world"
Hey! Inner! I think i might'a found your calling!

[Inner_Eulogy]

Hey! Inner! I think i might'a found your calling!

As in what?

[Bundahead]

The only problem I see, not that I disagree, is that the fact of "everyone thinking for themselves" does pose a problem because everyone thinks differently and that's where the disagreements start, follow by an argument, throwing a punch, going to war and dropping bombs...if ya' catch my point. Certain people need that structure in their lives or they would be clueless of what to do. Others like to think outside the box and learn things on their own. I've always been the somewhat of a rebel and think for myself. I don't have a LOT of booksmarts as you may call it but, I'm a very intelligent person. On the flip side, if people WOULD learn to think fir themselves and be able to COMMUNICATE, COMPROMISE and RESOLVE their differences amicably, then that would be our greatest stepping stone towards a newly unified consciousness.

I had to edit out the rant i posted earlier today, I dunno who saw it, but it HAD to go. It was pretty self serving. Sorry everybody...What Inner said sounded like a page from my day with this stupid drama going on with my new neighbor. Its a stupid, stupid, STUPID arguement and we need to COMMUNICATE, COMPROMISE and RESOLVE our differences amicably! So what do ya do when only one of you is willing to do that? In my eyes, this dims the lights a little bit and tonite i'm discouraged.

[Bundahead]

As in what?

Help to stop the purpetuating stereotypes and racism by woking with kids and teenagers that may have been heavily subjected to it......But, i'm not sure how that would work , or even it could....The premise might be shakey. I'm just tryin to think outside the box

[dirkz]

The only problem I see, not that I disagree, is that the fact of "everyone thinking for themselves" does pose a problem because everyone thinks differently and that's where the disagreements start, follow by an argument, throwing a punch, going to war and dropping bombs...if ya' catch my point. Certain people need that structure in their lives or they would be clueless of what to do. Others like to think outside the box and learn things on their own. I've always been the somewhat of a rebel and think for myself. I don't have a LOT of booksmarts as you may call it but, I'm a very intelligent person. On the flip side, if people WOULD learn to think fir themselves and be able to COMMUNICATE, COMPROMISE and RESOLVE their differences amicably, then that would be our greatest stepping stone towards a newly unified consciousness.

Sorry bros, I've been away for a few days.

Be sure to distinguish between "thinking for yourself" and "thinking you are always right." Thinking for yourself, in my mind, isn't just forming your own opinion, it's also being able to listen to others and constantly revise your opinion based on things you didn't previously know.


Damn, I just re-read your post and realize you basically said the same thing as me.

I'm tired.

[Bundahead]

Thinking for yourself, in my mind, isn't just forming your own opinion, it's also being able to listen to others and constantly revise your opinion based on things you didn't previously know.

Well Said.

[Inner_Eulogy]

Help to stop the purpetuating stereotypes and racism by woking with kids and teenagers that may have been heavily subjected to it......But, i'm not sure how that would work , or even it could....The premise might be shakey. I'm just tryin to think outside the box

Yeah, but neither teachers or counselors make very much money unfortunately. Which is really sad, the good teachers out there that care about shaping a young child's mind to be the best they can be and be positive in doing so and counselors who truly help kids work through their issues instead of just prescribing them some crap to dope them up really don't get the credit or pay that they deserve. I know that I'd be damn good at helping younger kids understand themselves, others and the world better. Alas, I'm already nearly 30 and do not have money or time for schooling. It's a shame because that's one thing I would truly enjoy.

[Inner_Eulogy]

Damn, I just re-read your post and realize you basically said the same thing as me.

I'm tired.

lol, yeah, basically

[The Holy Gift]

a unified consiousness may not be the next step in our evolution....but its close. just look at our evolution patter compared to other species. dinosaurs evolved over a span of about 100 million years. humans and apes split from our common ancestor just over 10 million years ago....so we got here in under 10 million. and we evolved from **** sapiens to become **** sapiens sapiens in a relatively short time, somwhere in like the 50,000 range. and look at how fast our technology is evolving. we used the same common tools for over 600 years. now since just 1950 we have computers the size of wrist watches. i assure, it wont be long now, (and by long im talking in a geological timescale) that is if were still here. if we dont kill all of each other first. or create some super virus in a lab somewhere that whipes out the human race. i guess the point im making here is that were are completely to unevolved for our own technology, and 1 of 2 things is going to have to happen. 1) we catch up, or 2) we use our feeble monkey brains to find some way of using our advanced technology to destroy us.

[Cheesegreater]

I'm in way late on this thread, and I didn't read everyone's posts, but I could tell this is a very cool thread from just the first few posts. It speaks to me. The people on this thread I think are some of the few that actually 'get' Right in Two.

It's good to know that there is at least a very small group of people that genuinely want things to get better in this world. I think this song is about a certain kind of catharsis concerning the way the human race conducts themselves. Shit or get off the pot. Sorry if that cheapens it for some of you, but that's a message I certainly take away from this song. This song is conveying the emotions of some of the people I've read in this thread. There are very few people out there who can really make a difference. The rich and powerful seem to be the only ones that can make things happen, and unfortunately, once you're rich and powerful, corruption usually comes with such acclaim. Bender said it best, "I have money and fame and all the depths of sleaze those things bring."

This song is one of disgust. Disgust at what's going on in the world and even more disgust with the fact that no one wants to do anything about it. Change MUST happen but no one wants to initiate it. Dr. Martin Luther King had good point all those years ago. You know who he was mad at the most? The white moderates. He wrote entire speeches about the white moderates. These were the people that knew the blacks needed their rights but didn't want to 'rock the boat' so they'd say things like, "Your time will come." or "Be patient, when the time is right you'll be treated as equals." These people were the ones that infuriated Dr. MLK the most, not the racists in our country. He couldn't stand the fact that there were white people that knew damn well what was going on was wrong, but wouldn't do anything about it because it would make them uncomfortable.

This is where we are at with our state of world affairs. The world gets smaller every day. Everyone is getting hip to what's going on in different parts of the world, and furthermore, we know 'we' the people need to truly mobilize as one to help make this place a little more bearable for those less fortunate than ourselves. But what do we do? We turn a deaf ear to what's going on in Darfur. We give up and throw our hands in the air when it comes to our leaders forcing us into to wars the majority doesn't support. We twiddle our thumbs and wait for someone to come and make everything better, or we wait for some grand galactic alignment or asteroid to hit the Earth. No one wants to try. Everyone wants to wait for things to get better without ever taking the appropriate actions. I welcome any change that will come to this world. I guess you could say I'm guilty of 'waiting' myself. I'm waiting for something significant to happen to make people give a shit. We could be waiting a long time though.

However, I must say that it's very refreshing to see some of you guys actually give a shit. Apathy seems to be a cornerstone of our generation, and it makes me sick. It's hip, cool, and alternative to not give a shit about anyone or anything these days. But I find this apathy to be nothing more than a pathetic cop-out, cowardice at it's finest. Some may think they're 'hardcore' for not giving a shit. It's just the opposite; they are the ones that are too scared to take any form of action, or face the consequences of caring. I would hope people are starting to realize this. Yes, it's harder to be compassionate. Yes, it's easier to say you shouldn't meddle with world affairs, but it doesn't make it right or a suitable way to deal with problems though. However slow it may be, I feel people will start to wake up.. one eyelid at a time.


P.S. Sorry for the rant, but I stand by these convictions.

[dirkz]

Apathy seems to be a cornerstone of our generation, and it makes me sick. It's hip, cool, and alternative to not give a shit about anyone or anything these days.

I've been trying to find the word to describe that for years. Apathy. Thank you.

And if you only read the first few posts, I recommend reading the rest. These guys have some damn good posts in this thread.

[Bundahead]

CHEEEESE! HOLY GIFT! I was thinking about you two just yesterday! Was wondering if y'all would ever come back. I'm so glad to see you both!
Human evolution has been quite dramatic and dynamic over the comparitively few years that we've walked the planet. What i've noticed though is how we tend to bring an unnatural element to the table. I believe that all life is connected in a very intimate and spiritual way. But notice how all other species on this planet live and work in harmony with nature and then notice our inability to do that? We always seem to develop things that are out of balance with nature. I know this might sound "crazy" but something about the human seems mechanical and I wonder once more where humans actually came from. Maybe those astoriods and meteors flying around in space are not that much different from the seeds that are tossed about the earth each spring.
(I'm not sayin this is my final theory on the subject...it just a lil observation that causes me to say Hmm.)

[dirkz]

Human creations do tend to seem unnatural, but maybe that's because they're so much more advanced than anything that other creatures can build. Nest of sticks vs. Skyscraper. Skyscraper seems unnatural, but it's created using the same elements as the rest of the earth. Much in the same way humans seem unnatural, though we are made of carbon, hydrogen, oxygen, etc., just liek everything else in the universe.

More food for thought.....Mmmm.....

[Bundahead]

I'm in way late on this thread, and I didn't read everyone's posts, but I could tell this is a very cool thread from just the first few posts. It speaks to me. The people on this thread I think are some of the few that actually 'get' Right in Two.

It's good to know that there is at least a very small group of people that genuinely want things to get better in this world. I think this song is about a certain kind of catharsis concerning the way the human race conducts themselves. Shit or get off the pot. Sorry if that cheapens it for some of you, but that's a message I certainly take away from this song. This song is conveying the emotions of some of the people I've read in this thread. There are very few people out there who can really make a difference. The rich and powerful seem to be the only ones that can make things happen, and unfortunately, once you're rich and powerful, corruption usually comes with such acclaim. Bender said it best, "I have money and fame and all the depths of sleaze those things bring."

This song is one of disgust. Disgust at what's going on in the world and even more disgust with the fact that no one wants to do anything about it. Change MUST happen but no one wants to initiate it. Dr. Martin Luther King had good point all those years ago. You know who he was mad at the most? The white moderates. He wrote entire speeches about the white moderates. These were the people that knew the blacks needed their rights but didn't want to 'rock the boat' so they'd say things like, "Your time will come." or "Be patient, when the time is right you'll be treated as equals." These people were the ones that infuriated Dr. MLK the most, not the racists in our country. He couldn't stand the fact that there were white people that knew damn well what was going on was wrong, but wouldn't do anything about it because it would make them uncomfortable.

This is where we are at with our state of world affairs. The world gets smaller every day. Everyone is getting hip to what's going on in different parts of the world, and furthermore, we know 'we' the people need to truly mobilize as one to help make this place a little more bearable for those less fortunate than ourselves. But what do we do? We turn a deaf ear to what's going on in Darfur. We give up and throw our hands in the air when it comes to our leaders forcing us into to wars the majority doesn't support. We twiddle our thumbs and wait for someone to come and make everything better, or we wait for some grand galactic alignment or asteroid to hit the Earth. No one wants to try. Everyone wants to wait for things to get better without ever taking the appropriate actions. I welcome any change that will come to this world. I guess you could say I'm guilty of 'waiting' myself. I'm waiting for something significant to happen to make people give a shit. We could be waiting a long time though.

However, I must say that it's very refreshing to see some of you guys actually give a shit. Apathy seems to be a cornerstone of our generation, and it makes me sick. It's hip, cool, and alternative to not give a shit about anyone or anything these days. But I find this apathy to be nothing more than a pathetic cop-out, cowardice at it's finest. Some may think they're 'hardcore' for not giving a shit. It's just the opposite; they are the ones that are too scared to take any form of action, or face the consequences of caring. I would hope people are starting to realize this. Yes, it's harder to be compassionate. Yes, it's easier to say you shouldn't meddle with world affairs, but it doesn't make it right or a suitable way to deal with problems though. However slow it may be, I feel people will start to wake up.. one eyelid at a time.


P.S. Sorry for the rant, but I stand by these convictions.

I agree with what you've said here. and i'll go a few steps further to say that I believe the shit's gonna hit the fan one day. I think that many of the people we call apathetic are just waiting for someone to speak up and say what they are feeling inside. More and more people are coming to terms with the fact that our government/our constitution is no longer working. But how are we to bring about real change in that area....Here's where I think the shit will hit the fan. I think a war between our government and its citizens is on the way. And a new interpretation of the "patriot" will be defined.
Problem here is that i don't believe violence ever brings about the right changes. Violence only beggets violence and peace will ultimately begget peace. The revolutionary times in history that I see made real lasting changes have been the ones brought about through peaceful means: Jesus, Mohammaded, Martin Luther King, ect. I'm not saying violence didn't erupt during these times but they weren't instigated by the movement's leader. I firmly believe that if we are to find inspiration on how to change the world we first need to look to those revolutions sought after through peace and then devise a stagety that incorporates a peaceful agenda and our specific situations of today. Thinkin outside the box!
Let's sit the existance of Apethy in the background for the moment. If you didn't have to consider its effects, what could we do to change the world? I'm tired of complaining...
I REALLY wish I/we/somebody would DO something!

[Inner_Eulogy]

Well I'd first like the welcome Cheese to the thread, glad you found your way and thank you for the well thought out posting. I'm right with you on there as I'm sure we all are. Me Bunda and Dirk have basically carried this on from the start and it has been my favorite thread thus far to post in. I'm actually kind of elated that it hasn't had too many people in here causing a crowd and turning it to shit like some threads have become. I agree that you should read through the whole thing though.

[Inner_Eulogy]

Unfortunately, the amount of people who care to see change or are willing to devise some sort of plan or take action are too far and few between, this is why I fear things will never change until a dramatic catastrophe happens on a global scale (Mayan Doomsday ??) before everyone says holy shit, fuck these differences, we need to work together to survive, ya' know. Another issue is out of the people that DO care to see change, maybe only 15% actually have the power (money, celebrity status, whatever it may be) or even know where to begin or how to go about it, myself included.

On a non-related note: If anybody knows any cute single women ages 23-28 living in the chicagoland area - hook a brotha up...

[Cheesegreater]

I could certainly see a war between our government and it's people. Also, I couldn't agree with you more about the term 'patriot' being redefined in the coming years. People in power like to say that anyone with a dissenting opinion about America are not patriots. I think just the opposite. How dare these fucking politicians call the mothers who've lost their sons in Iraq not 'patriotic' for protesting. Those are the very people that are aspiring to live in a better America.

The powers that be right now believe they are the best for the job and that the general public is too stupid to really understand the scope of what's going on in the world. NO ONE knows what will always be in our collective best interests. The world is more complicated than that. Just because these politicians went to ivy league schools and got the highest grades in their political science classes does not mean they know what's in the best interest of the people in this country. They usually only know what's in THEIR best interests. There are too many lies, cover-ups, and hidden agendas for any one person to what's going on in the big picture. This is why it's getting closer to the time for the common man to step up. It's getting to the point where everyone is taking off the rose colored shades and getting a little more skeptical about the way our government functions. This is a wonderful thing, though I don't where it will take us. Peaceful revolution is the best way to handle it. Ghandi knew this much, but it's hard to rely on people not shedding blood.

What sucks about this country is they only want for you to bitch about ONE thing at a time. ONE thing within the system. If you come along saying that the whole governmental system is slowly turning to shit, everyone will deem you as an anarchist. Anarchy is another 'hip' thing amongst the cool crowd, but if anybody with a lick sense thinks about what that would bring they'd know it would only lead to disaster. Anarchy is every man for himself. The shit would really hit the fan, and eventually people would be so desperate for order in their lives that they'd take any form of government, even a dictatorship. That would be a huge step in the wrong direction.

I don't know what needs to be done in this country other than people like us, right here in this forum, need to get together and let our convictions be known. I think everyone would be shocked at how many of us feel the same way about where our government is taking us. It's a delicate situation, but that doesn't mean that nothing should be done.

[Inner_Eulogy]

I could certainly see a war between our government and it's people. Also, I couldn't agree with you more about the term 'patriot' being redefined in the coming years. People in power like to say that anyone with a dissenting opinion about America are not patriots. I think just the opposite. How dare these fucking politicians call the mothers who've lost their sons in Iraq not 'patriotic' for protesting. Those are the very people that are aspiring to live in a better America.

The powers that be right now believe they are the best for the job and that the general public is too stupid to really understand the scope of what's going on in the world. NO ONE knows what will always be in our collective best interests. The world is more complicated than that. Just because these politicians went to ivy league schools and got the highest grades in their political science classes does not mean they know what's in the best interest of the people in this country. They usually only know what's in THEIR best interests. There are too many lies, cover-ups, and hidden agendas for any one person to what's going on in the big picture. This is why it's getting closer to the time for the common man to step up. It's getting to the point where everyone is taking off the rose colored shades and getting a little more skeptical about the way our government functions. This is a wonderful thing, though I don't where it will take us. Peaceful revolution is the best way to handle it. Ghandi knew this much, but it's hard to rely on people not shedding blood.

What sucks about this country is they only want for you to bitch about ONE thing at a time. ONE thing within the system. If you come along saying that the whole governmental system is slowly turning to shit, everyone will deem you as an anarchist. Anarchy is another 'hip' thing amongst the cool crowd, but if anybody with a lick sense thinks about what that would bring they'd know it would only lead to disaster. Anarchy is every man for himself. The shit would really hit the fan, and eventually people would be so desperate for order in their lives that they'd take any form of government, even a dictatorship. That would be a huge step in the wrong direction.

I don't know what needs to be done in this country other than people like us, right here in this forum, need to get together and let our convictions be known. I think everyone would be shocked at how many of us feel the same way about where our government is taking us. It's a delicate situation, but that doesn't mean that nothing should be done.

I agree with this wholeheartedly. someone like us who cares about the world and it's country's people should become president. Someone not afraid to be human and admit a mistake or tell the truth instead of lying even if the truth hurts. The people of America or any government for that matter would be much more appreciative to know that their government was willing to be honest. I can understand certain things being unsaid for security reasons but why so many lies and mistruths. Even about the alien conspiracy, I want to know the truth, hell, you can tell me there is such a thing and you just don't know or you did study alien technology or you can tell me that Area 51 and aliens really is just an experimental/new technology testing site..ok, thanks for sharing that and now I can move on knowing the truth. It doesn't mean they have to disclose the secrets or hand over blueprints. Another thing I wonder is if a president is even really truly the one in power who makes the decisions. Maybe he's just a puppet for the powers that be. Clinton wasn't the greatest president but, at least he was human, he admitted to smoking pot once, but where he fucked up was trying to follow that up with "but I didn't inhale". Who in their right mind DOESN'T know he was full of shit, just fucking admit you smoked pot as a kid, grew up to be responsible as most of us do and get over it. Next subject. Ok, I gotta get back to work...

[Cheesegreater]

I agree with this wholeheartedly. someone like us who cares about the world and it's country's people should become president. Someone not afraid to be human and admit a mistake or tell the truth instead of lying even if the truth hurts. The people of America or any government for that matter would be much more appreciative to know that their government was willing to be honest. I can understand certain things being unsaid for security reasons but why so many lies and mistruths. Even about the alien conspiracy, I want to know the truth, hell, you can tell me there is such a thing and you just don't know or you did study alien technology or you can tell me that Area 51 and aliens really is just an experimental/new technology testing site..ok, thanks for sharing that and now I can move on knowing the truth. It doesn't mean they have to disclose the secrets or hand over blueprints. Another thing I wonder is if a president is even really truly the one in power who makes the decisions. Maybe he's just a puppet for the powers that be. Clinton wasn't the greatest president but, at least he was human, he admitted to smoking pot once, but where he fucked up was trying to follow that up with "but I didn't inhale". Who in their right mind DOESN'T know he was full of shit, just fucking admit you smoked pot as a kid, grew up to be responsible as most of us do and get over it. Next subject. Ok, I gotta get back to work...

Perfect! That's exactly what Clinton should have said. Even without saying it, a lot of the younger crowds appreciated him for admitting it. It made him more real.

Kinda funny, I live in Arkansas and know quite a few people that knew Clinton. Small state, ya know. Some went to his church. Hell, my dad even delivered his newspapers for awhile and one time talked to him on his front porch. Clinton was much younger then, and my dad said he was in his robe and having a cup of coffee. They just talked for a couple of minutes, and Clinton was in his late twenties then, nobody special. My dad grew up in Hope, Arkansas where Bill grew up, and he said he ran into him a couple of times. Always thought that story was cool as shit though.

I agree with you completely. I can handle the truth. The truth might piss me off, but probably not near as much as having it withheld.

[Bundahead]

Unfortunately, the amount of people who care to see change or are willing to devise some sort of plan or take action are too far and few between, this is why I fear things will never change until a dramatic catastrophe happens on a global scale (Mayan Doomsday ??) before everyone says holy shit, fuck these differences, we need to work together to survive, ya' know. Another issue is out of the people that DO care to see change, maybe only 15% actually have the power (money, celebrity status, whatever it may be) or even know where to begin or how to go about it, myself included.

On a non-related note: If anybody knows any cute single women ages 23-28 living in the chicagoland area - hook a brotha up...

Yah, but many times it takes the unasuming hero and the unforseen few to rise to the occasion...even with all the odds in the world stacked against them. You see the story repeated in history and literary classics alike.

****And now excuse me while I daydream:

One day,
far, far away in the future,
A story is told of a man named Maynard James Keenan and a band called Tool And the legend tells of how their music and lyrics inspired the world's largest peaceful revolution ever known to mankind, telling of how it forever changed the world. And they'll say it all began by Identifying with the Angels.
****alrighty then, end of daydream, back to realty*****

Sorry, that was just me pandering to comments made by Maynard in an interview where he said (not verbatum) he would love for people to hear their music and be inspired into doing something great.

****On your non-related note: WTG Dude! I dunno anyone in Chicago but its really good to see you sayin that!

[dirkz]

And they'll say it all began by Identifying with the Angels.

Bunda, Inner, Cheese, Holy Gift, and Dirkz started the revolution.


I agree with Cheese, tell the truth. If they can't handle it it's their own damn fault. Cuz as much as the truth might suck, if I find out I was lied to, I'd go apeshit on the person who lied to me.

[Bundahead]

Perfect! That's exactly what Clinton should have said. Even without saying it, a lot of the younger crowds appreciated him for admitting it. It made him more real.

Kinda funny, I live in Arkansas and know quite a few people that knew Clinton. Small state, ya know. Some went to his church. Hell, my dad even delivered his newspapers for awhile and one time talked to him on his front porch. Clinton was much younger then, and my dad said he was in his robe and having a cup of coffee. They just talked for a couple of minutes, and Clinton was in his late twenties then, nobody special. My dad grew up in Hope, Arkansas where Bill grew up, and he said he ran into him a couple of times. Always thought that story was cool as shit though.

I agree with you completely. I can handle the truth. The truth might piss me off, but probably not near as much as having it withheld.

AAhhh the good ole clinton days! When the main drama of the times revolved around a cigar and a stain... [sigh]
Let me start this off by saying that I hesitate to give any endorsements to a polititian, but as it stands right now i believe i may vote for Obama..I'm impressed with his committment to not take funds from lobbyist or special interest groups (S.I.G.'s) b/c that means he's turning his back to some heavy contributions (millions). I've been saying for years now, long b4 i ever heard of Obama, that if a canditate refused funds from S.I.G.'s then they would have my full attention, and so when i heard of Obama and his history w/ S.I.G.'s, I was very suprised!
I hate how the news reports on the amount of campaign funds each canditate has collected; it ENFURIATES me to hear how much money is being wasted. This year the total combined funds the canidates will raise is estimated to be over 1 billion dollars!! And that is, in my opinion, SICK! Its throwing money over a bridge....or...or... more like putting the money in a paper shredder and laughing in the faces of the poor, the hungry, and the sick as they watch helplessly. No wonder the rest of the world thinks so little of us...look at the messages we are sending, "Fuck You!" we say, "We'll piss away millions of dollars all in the name of a vote! Who gives a shit about the babies in Africa getting raped with broken bottles. Not our problem! Now, Excuse me while i go wipe my ass with this thousand dollar bill!"

Even with all that being said, I am still impressed with the fact that Obama has raised the same amount of money as Hillary but it has taken him twice as many contributions to do so. What i find interesting about that fact is that the majority of his contributions have been made by people like me (and maybe you)...$10 here, $10 there, maybe $100 here...that's noteworthy to me b/c someone in my financial positon that contributes to any campaign must believe strongly in the person they are contributing to.
On top of that, if you ask him about smok'in weed he's gonna tell you he did it. Straight up. If you ask him about a few other drugs he's gonna tell you he did 'em. Straight up. I know i can't trust any politian but He's the first one i've been at all impressed by since i voted for Clinton back in 1996.

Remember:
***I reserve the right to change my mind, depending on what i learn about the canidates between now and the election....
however, I'll never vote for another Redcoat (republican) again unless they change their colors (metaphoricly speaking, ofcourse). I'm not sure what i would do if Al Gore ran...I admire his convictions and the diligence he's displayed over the past 25 years. He definitly knows how to focus on a goal and how to bring about change.

[Bundahead]

a unified consiousness may not be the next step in our evolution....but its close. just look at our evolution patter compared to other species. dinosaurs evolved over a span of about 100 million years. humans and apes split from our common ancestor just over 10 million years ago....so we got here in under 10 million. and we evolved from **** sapiens to become **** sapiens sapiens in a relatively short time, somwhere in like the 50,000 range. and look at how fast our technology is evolving. we used the same common tools for over 600 years. now since just 1950 we have computers the size of wrist watches. i assure, it wont be long now, (and by long im talking in a geological timescale) that is if were still here. if we dont kill all of each other first. or create some super virus in a lab somewhere that whipes out the human race. i guess the point im making here is that were are completely to unevolved for our own technology, and 1 of 2 things is going to have to happen. 1) we catch up, or 2) we use our feeble monkey brains to find some way of using our advanced technology to destroy us.

O.K. Now,we're gonna have to start a massive covert anti-weapons task force on a global scale . Holy Gift, this will be your assignment. Your first mission is to gather a group of master thieves and ex-military, then infiltrate a weapons bunker; stealing the most dangerous ingrediants that enable the weapons to function properly.
Bring the stolen material back to base and we'll dispose of the materials, rendering the weapons useless!
AAHHH-HAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHA!
God, i'm such an idiot! Sorry, I guess i'm still in daydream mode.
Yes, our own technology is beyond our own understanding of it. Yes, any of these weapons put into human hands are going to be misused, and anyone who realizes that is then obligated to TRY to do something about it. Crap, see what you've gotten me into! I was gonna go to the beach today and inhale the calm breeze's apathy, but since you've told me that, now i gotta go stop arms production...FUCK!!!

Reminds me of one of the songs APC covered on Emotive

Power and Power,
the law of the land.
Those living for death,
Will die by their own hands.
Life's no ordeal if you come to terms,
Reject the system dictating the laws.
From dehuminization
To arms production,
To hasten this nation towards its destruction,
Its your choice,
Your choice,
Your choice,
Your choice,
Peace or Annihilation

"If this were a dictatorship it'd be a heck of alot easier; I'll tell you that right now...
.....just as long as I'm the dictator"
-George W. Bush, 2004

[Bundahead]

Hey everybody, its me again, 3 posts in a row (forgive me)
I felt like leaving a note to you all. I've been piddl'en 'round the threads..i rarely look at any of the other ones as i'm nice and cozy in here, but as i read some of them I grew thankful for this one. No arguing back and forth about specific words to a song, no one feels the need to further their own interpretation of the lyrics, no jugdements. That hostility you feel in some of the threads is missing in here. Now I'm sure i've probably jinxed it! But I still wanted to make mention of the fact. There are no words to express exactly what that feels like to me. Anyone who knows me very well knows that when i'm discussing the things we discuss in here, i'm in heaven. It restores my faith...I say this on a Sunday morning, while the streets are quiet and most of Macon, Georgia is at church. And as they are searching for something tangible in the unseen, I am finding a piece of what their looking for, right here, from the comfort of my lazy boy. Now what does that say about human nature?

[Cheesegreater]

Hey everybody, its me again, 3 posts in a row (forgive me)
I felt like leaving a note to you all. I've been piddl'en 'round the threads..i rarely look at any of the other ones as i'm nice and cozy in here, but as i read some of them I grew thankful for this one. No arguing back and forth about specific words to a song, no one feels the need to further their own interpretation of the lyrics, no jugdements. That hostility you feel in some of the threads is missing in here. Now I'm sure i've probably jinxed it! But I still wanted to make mention of the fact. There are no words to express exactly what that feels like to me. Anyone who knows me very well knows that when i'm discussing the things we discuss in here, i'm in heaven. It restores my faith...I say this on a Sunday morning, while the streets are quiet and most of Macon, Georgia is at church. And as they are searching for something tangible in the unseen, I am finding a piece of what their looking for, right here, from the comfort of my lazy boy. Now what does that say about human nature?

I too have thoroughly enjoyed this thread. Good threads are produced when people put their egos to the side. A lot of people feel uncomfortable when there's no hostility, as absurd as that may sound, it's true. What you've said about the campaigns and wiping asses with thousand dollar bills was a quote for our generation.

Right in Two seems to talk about people's problem with dividing otherwise pure ideas. Everyone in this country likes to brag about how they have the right to believe whatever they want. There is a such thing as right and wrong, but some people like to support the wrong because 'I can, and you can't stop me.' Assholes is what I believe you call them. There's a lot of them though. People get caught up in symantics. So people argue til the end of time, but they should realize they see things the same way much of time. People want to focus on differences when they should be observing what makes them alike.

A lot of us here have the same convictions, but we'd never realize it if all we focused on was what makes us different.

[Inner_Eulogy]

AAhhh the good ole clinton days! When the main drama of the times revolved around a cigar and a stain... [sigh]
Let me start this off by saying that I hesitate to give any endorsements to a polititian, but as it stands right now i believe i may vote for Obama..I'm impressed with his committment to not take funds from lobbyist or special interest groups (S.I.G.'s) b/c that means he's turning his back to some heavy contributions (millions). I've been saying for years now, long b4 i ever heard of Obama, that if a canditate refused funds from S.I.G.'s then they would have my full attention, and so when i heard of Obama and his history w/ S.I.G.'s, I was very suprised!
I hate how the news reports on the amount of campaign funds each canditate has collected; it ENFURIATES me to hear how much money is being wasted. This year the total combined funds the canidates will raise is estimated to be over 1 billion dollars!! And that is, in my opinion, SICK! Its throwing money over a bridge....or...or... more like putting the money in a paper shredder and laughing in the faces of the poor, the hungry, and the sick as they watch helplessly. No wonder the rest of the world thinks so little of us...look at the messages we are sending, "Fuck You!" we say, "We'll piss away millions of dollars all in the name of a vote! Who gives a shit about the babies in Africa getting raped with broken bottles. Not our problem! Now, Excuse me while i go wipe my ass with this thousand dollar bill!"

Even with all that being said, I am still impressed with the fact that Obama has raised the same amount of money as Hillary but it has taken him twice as many contributions to do so. What i find interesting about that fact is that the majority of his contributions have been made by people like me (and maybe you)...$10 here, $10 there, maybe $100 here...that's noteworthy to me b/c someone in my financial positon that contributes to any campaign must believe strongly in the person they are contributing to.
On top of that, if you ask him about smok'in weed he's gonna tell you he did it. Straight up. If you ask him about a few other drugs he's gonna tell you he did 'em. Straight up. I know i can't trust any politian but He's the first one i've been at all impressed by since i voted for Clinton back in 1996.

Remember:
***I reserve the right to change my mind, depending on what i learn about the canidates between now and the election....
however, I'll never vote for another Redcoat (republican) again unless they change their colors (metaphoricly speaking, ofcourse). I'm not sure what i would do if Al Gore ran...I admire his convictions and the diligence he's displayed over the past 25 years. He definitly knows how to focus on a goal and how to bring about change.

I'm for Obama myself. Most upfront and level headed canidate this country's seen in a very long time. Hopefully it'll follow through if he's elected. This election is going to be one of the biggest events in many lifetimes. It mostly comes to to either Hillary (whom I cannot stand) or Obama I think, and either way is making history. The first female president or the first black president. I think that's awesome. As much as we talk about how close minded and shitty the world has become, I'm damn proud to see that we have come far enough to see either one of these people being close to being elected. I only fear the opposition, god for bid we had a female or a black president. There would quite possibly be assasination attempts in either case I would assume. Hopefully all goes well and we will see a positive change.

[dirkz]

Obama ftw. I live in central Illinois (like you couldn't figure it out) so there's a lot of support around here.

Nothing wrong with a black president, as long as he can get the job done.

[Bundahead]

Oh yeah Dirkz, are you 18 yet or will you be by the time the election rolls around next year?

[dirkz]

Yea, I'll turn 18 next May. I can't vote in the primaries, but I will for the general election if Obama is on the ballot.

[Bundahead]

[QUOTE=Cheesegreater;2086018]I too have thoroughly enjoyed this thread. Good threads are produced when people put their egos to the side. A lot of people feel uncomfortable when there's no hostility, as absurd as that may sound, it's true. QUOTE]

Yes, it is true. I really think that comes from people's need to not feel vulnerable; a defense mechanism of sorts. I understand how they feel. Sometimes i'll post something and then later worry that i put myself out there too much and that any moment someone's going to come along and put me down for it. Its all about ego i suppose and I fight with mine constantly.

[Inner_Eulogy]

[QUOTE=Cheesegreater;2086018]I too have thoroughly enjoyed this thread. Good threads are produced when people put their egos to the side. A lot of people feel uncomfortable when there's no hostility, as absurd as that may sound, it's true. QUOTE]

Yes, it is true. I really think that comes from people's need to not feel vulnerable; a defense mechanism of sorts. I understand how they feel. Sometimes i'll post something and then later worry that i put myself out there too much and that any moment someone's going to come along and put me down for it. Its all about ego i suppose and I fight with mine constantly.

Hell, I threw myself out to the wolves as far as being vunerable with everything I've told you all already. Nonetheless, it was semi-therapeutic in doing so.

[Bundahead]

[QUOTE=Bundahead;2087703]

Hell, I threw myself out to the wolves as far as being vunerable with everything I've told you all already. Nonetheless, it was semi-therapeutic in doing so.

Hope I didn't come across as a wolf...

[dirkz]

Grrrr.....just kidding.

I'd imagine it feels good to finally get all that stuff off your chest, Inner. I know it helps me to let it out or something.

[Inner_Eulogy]

[QUOTE=Inner_Eulogy;2087829]

Hope I didn't come across as a wolf...

No, I didn't mean I was relating any of you to "the wolves", it was merely an opportunity to use the figure of speech.

I write a lot of songs/poetry which I've been told a million times to do something with but I just never know how to go about it. I truly do have a gift when it comes to writing and everyone that has read anything I write is amazed. You could even give me a subject and I could write something off the top of my head in a few minutes about it. I've never actually pursued anything with it but, I've always loved sharing it and getting opinions and feedback.

As a matter fact, if any of you happen to be in the music biz or no someone who is. Find out for me how you can go about being a songwriter. It wouldn't hurt to give it a shot sometime.

[Bundahead]

[QUOTE=Bundahead;2088138]

No, I didn't mean I was relating any of you to "the wolves", it was merely an opportunity to use the figure of speech.

I write a lot of songs/poetry which I've been told a million times to do something with but I just never know how to go about it. I truly do have a gift when it comes to writing and everyone that has read anything I write is amazed. You could even give me a subject and I could write something off the top of my head in a few minutes about it. I've never actually pursued anything with it but, I've always loved sharing it and getting opinions and feedback.

As a matter fact, if any of you happen to be in the music biz or no someone who is. Find out for me how you can go about being a songwriter. It wouldn't hurt to give it a shot sometime.

My Friend! I knew there was something about you I found familiar.....you manic depressive little writer you! I'm a writer myself. Ever since I can remember I've wanted to write...I never really cared what kind of writer..freelance, books, journalism, ect. I've been writing a book for the past 2 years. Its always so near and dear to me that i have a hard time opening myself up to scrutiny. I'm so afraid of critism. What's funny about that is when I'm taking classes or in a workshop I have no problem offering up pieces that i've done for the class to the teacher. I always become a favorite of my english and journalism teachers, hence why I loved Ms. Hall so much. When my civics teacher hated me b/c I couldn't stop disrupting the class, my english/drama/literature teacher loved me for giving them a new piece that no one else had seen. Ms. Hall understood my nature and couldn't care less how i acted as long as I turned in work that she enjoyed reading.Back then I was a huge reader of Percy Shelley and I loved to hear stories of his and Mary's wild times....one of which led Mary to write "frankenstien" (a story that i never really cared for) She actually came up with it during one of their famous parties. They had a contest to see who could come up with the best horror story and so goes the birth of a classic. I love stories like that!!
Okay so maybe you should go to crieg's list. Check out posts made by musicians in your area. And maybe you should post something about "local songwriter seeks talented musicians" Good luck!
And you know...maybe starting a website of some sorts could give you a place to exhibit some of your work. My husband has told me several times that i ought to think about doing that. And, ofcourse, stick to this message board, sometimes the posts are great sources of inspiration. I draw from the posts in this thread every single day, as the subject material of my book coincides with all that we talk about here....Tool's music has also become an inspiration for me and my writing. They've hit me head on in a place in my life where their words ring true and match my frustrations. Its a magical chain of events that lead up to the pencil meeting the paper.

[Bundahead]

Yea, I'll turn 18 next May. I can't vote in the primaries, but I will for the general election if Obama is on the ballot.

What an awsome time to come of age to vote! Your first election will be one of the biggest in our country's history.
The first time I voted it was 1996. My dad was running for Sherrif in the little town we were living in at the time (about 20 miles outside of Macon). So on my very first voting experience, I voted for my dad and Bill Clinton.
Thought I'd share that lil tidbit.

[Inner_Eulogy]

Here's a little tid bit (seems that'll be the magic word of the day) of a short poem I wrote regarding my ex-fiance situation.


GOOD AS GONE


I must've fooled myself to think that I was so strong,

emotions got the best of me and I'm as good as gone.

I thought I could say something and the weather would change,

I thought I could see it all so clearly but it was out of my range.

So much heartache and so many tears have left me completely drained,

within this solitude I the embrace feeling of this numbing pain.

I give up there's just no more use - grab my rope and tie my noose,

rip out my heart and just let it loose - what's to be fair there is no truce.

Welcome to my checkerboard and just take my pawn,

ya' might as well because I'm as good as gone.

[Inner_Eulogy]

...and one more

THROUGH THE LOOKING GLASS


Through the looking glass everything seems so hazy,

is everything I do wrong or am I just that crazy?

Within myself I'm searching in hopes that I'll find,

that little light hoping I can make it brightly shine.

My life seems to be content in being completely chaotic,

as if destiny made a choice without even telling me about it.

Which way do you turn when you're unsure of the direction,

what do you look for when you can no longer pay attention.

This pain that I'm feeling is beyond any logical explanation,

it burns inside in torment until I've lost all possible sensation.

I see a small hope for the future far away from the past,

although I stand alone while I gaze through the looking glass.

[Bundahead]

I often wonder where Maynard was when he wrote some of the songs. Did he jot down little pieces on a paper napkin while sitting in a diner; was it at the end of a long night as he sat awake in his coachman; or was he sitting on a cliff overlooking his vineyard as the sun slowly fell beneath the horizon. The process an artist follows is interesting to me. Sometimes I grab my mp3 player and I ride for an hour or so through the countryside. I listen to Tool as loud as I can and I think of new scenes to the story i'm writing. Just yesterday, I listened to Parabola a few times over as I imagined the main character of my book hearing the same song for the first time. When I return home there is a few pages written in chickenscratch where i've jotted things down as I was driving. It helps to daydream.

[Bundahead]

...and one more

THROUGH THE LOOKING GLASS


Through the looking glass everything seems so hazy,

is everything I do wrong or am I just that crazy?

Within myself I'm searching in hopes that I'll find,

that little light hoping I can make it brightly shine.

My life seems to be content in being completely chaotic,

as if destiny made a choice without even telling me about it.

Which way do you turn when you're unsure of the direction,

what do you look for when you can no longer pay attention.

This pain that I'm feeling is beyond any logical explanation,

it burns inside in torment until I've lost all possible sensation.

I see a small hope for the future far away from the past,

although I stand alone while I gaze through the looking glass.

Beautiful. sad, yet hopefull.

[Bundahead]

Here's a little tid bit (seems that'll be the magic word of the day) of a short poem I wrote regarding my ex-fiance situation.


GOOD AS GONE


I must've fooled myself to think that I was so strong,

emotions got the best of me and I'm as good as gone.

I thought I could say something and the weather would change,

I thought I could see it all so clearly but it was out of my range.

So much heartache and so many tears have left me completely drained,

within this solitude I the embrace feeling of this numbing pain.

I give up there's just no more use - grab my rope and tie my noose,

rip out my heart and just let it loose - what's to be fair there is no truce.

Welcome to my checkerboard and just take my pawn,

ya' might as well because I'm as good as gone.

I wish i could write music...play the piano...a guitar...something! The only quazi-musician i know is a dude named Alo who calls himself the kool-aid man (lol) and he's a rapper. He could use some lyrics like this as all he writes about is shallow....you know..being at the club, messing around with different girls, weed, bla bla bla. And he's all consumed with coming up with a catch phrase for himself. As it stands now the catch phrase is: "OH- OH- OH- OH YEAH!" (you know, like how the kool-aid man says "OH Yeah!" ) Whenever he plays me a song he's written I have to sit there with a fake smile on my face....I dunno why, but I always pretend that I like it. I really ought to tell him to try and write more poinient lyrics...even though sometimes I hint at it by talking about Tool's songs and their subject matter (i normally get excited when i talk about that) but, He never gets it and I honestly don't want to hurt his feelings. I may not like his music but he's been a great friend of mine for about 10 years now.

[Inner_Eulogy]

I wish i could write music...play the piano...a guitar...something! The only quazi-musician i know is a dude named Alo who calls himself the kool-aid man (lol) and he's a rapper. He could use some lyrics like this as all he writes about is shallow....you know..being at the club, messing around with different girls, weed, bla bla bla. And he's all consumed with coming up with a catch phrase for himself. As it stands now the catch phrase is: "OH- OH- OH- OH YEAH!" (you know, like how the kool-aid man says "OH Yeah!" ) Whenever he plays me a song he's written I have to sit there with a fake smile on my face....I dunno why, but I always pretend that I like it. I really ought to tell him to try and write more poinient lyrics...even though sometimes I hint at it by talking about Tool's songs and their subject matter (i normally get excited when i talk about that) but, He never gets it and I honestly don't want to hurt his feelings. I may not like his music but he's been a great friend of mine for about 10 years now.

I try to write in many different formats and themes, these particular 2 were wrtten in the same format as well as the same subject. My ex never understood my slight obsession with Tool either. She either didn't care or simply didn't understand, even though I tried to explain many times. She thought it was all yelling, yet she likes Linkin Park..go figure. Alas back to the poems, I'm always open for criticism as well.

[Bundahead]

Hey dirkz i just visited your myspace page. You know the Allman brothers are from Macon... My biological mother (i was adopted by my aunt and uncle as a baby) dated Greg for about two years and they lived together for about a year before i was born (can we say Daddy? LOL JK!). I see Greg every once in a while around town, and he frequents and old soul food restaurant in downtown Macon, called the "H&H". I visit his brother's graves at Rose Hill Cemetary (as do hundreds of others)..you find "roaches" laid all over their headstones where stoners have come to pay omage. (so if you run out of weed you always know where to find some!!) The graves have mushrooms carved into the stone and many people take paper and pencil with them and make a sort of relief by putting the paper over the carvings and running over it with the pencil. I have one that a friend did and then painted. Its perty cool. BTW write some music for Inner while you pluck around on that guitar why don't ya!

[Inner_Eulogy]

Here's a poem I just wrote within the last 10min that I sent to her, let me know what you think.

I'M SORRY

I know that I tried so hard in all the wrong ways,

and believe me when I say I'm sorry for those days.

I'm sorry that you had chose to do what you did,

I'm sorry that it's taking it's toll on our beautiful kid.

I'm sorry I didn't always say what I really meant,

I'm sorry for the money that I had foolishly spent.

I'm sorry for the lies that I would always feed you,

I'm sorry that I wasn't always there when you needed me to.

It's a shame when all the blame is accepted by me,

so sad to see that you're blind to what we could be.

I know I left you lonely for so many nights,

missing me and alone and I know it wasn't right.

I'm sorry for being selfish and thinking only of myself,

I'm sorry I stopped caring and put your feelings on the shelf.

I'm sorry for not listening when you needed someone to talk to,

I'm sorry for not understanding and being there to hold onto.

I'm sorry for the temper that I would sometimes display,

I'm so sorry for losing you and I miss you everyday.

It's a shame when all the blame is accepted by me,

so sad to see that you're blind to what we could be.

[dirkz]

Hey dirkz i just visited your myspace page. You know the Allman brothers are from Macon... My biological mother (i was adopted by my aunt and uncle as a baby) dated Greg for about two years and they lived together for about a year before i was born (can we say Daddy? LOL JK!). I see Greg every once in a while around town, and he frequents and old soul food restaurant in downtown Macon, called the "H&H". I visit his brother's graves at Rose Hill Cemetary (as do hundreds of others)..you find "roaches" laid all over their headstones where stoners have come to pay omage. (so if you run out of weed you always know where to find some!!) The graves have mushrooms carved into the stone and many people take paper and pencil with them and make a sort of relief by putting the paper over the carvings and running over it with the pencil. I have one that a friend did and then painted. Its perty cool. BTW write some music for Inner while you pluck around on that guitar why don't ya!

Haha, that's pretty cool, man. Ironically, the cemetery in my podunk town is also Rose Hill Cemetery.

I'm not that good on guitar, yet. I still mostly play covers, don't really write originals yet. You'd have to talk to my friend about that.

[shameless plug] www.myspace.com/leverband [/shameless plug]

That's the band he plays guitar for, they just recorded the music for a demo. Vocals to come soon. I'm friends with all the members of the band and really think they have potential.

[Bundahead]

Here's a poem I just wrote within the last 10min that I sent to her, let me know what you think.

I'M SORRY

I know that I tried so hard in all the wrong ways,

and believe me when I say I'm sorry for those days.

I'm sorry that you had chose to do what you did,

I'm sorry that it's taking it's toll on our beautiful kid.

I'm sorry I didn't always say what I really meant,

I'm sorry for the money that I had foolishly spent.

I'm sorry for the lies that I would always feed you,

I'm sorry that I wasn't always there when you needed me to.

It's a shame when all the blame is accepted by me,

so sad to see that you're blind to what we could be.

I know I left you lonely for so many nights,

missing me and alone and I know it wasn't right.

I'm sorry for being selfish and thinking only of myself,

I'm sorry I stopped caring and put your feelings on the shelf.

I'm sorry for not listening when you needed someone to talk to,

I'm sorry for not understanding and being there to hold onto.

I'm sorry for the temper that I would sometimes display,

I'm so sorry for losing you and I miss you everyday.

It's a shame when all the blame is accepted by me,

so sad to see that you're blind to what we could be.

0h man, did u say u sent this to her? I ask like i can't re-read it for myself. I love all of the pieces you wrote. You're purging and its very good to to do that..especially if you are creative and prone to the process. What's cool is in about 3 months from now you can go back and re-read what you wrote. Many times you are able to look on it more objectively. I'm always inspired a little more when I read something that I wrote from a long time back when times were tough. The words seemed to have flowed more freely during the times that I purged; but, my arrangements, sequences, finished products, always seem to come together when time had taken its own effects on my understanding of the situation I was going through.
That was all too wordy but maybe you can see what i'm getting at.
I am positive that this is a great place to share your work, which is riddled with your feelings, without the fear of anyone turning it against you, but sharing it with her might not be as safe. I promise you; I don't say with with any judgements or accusations, only with your feelings in mind. However, I realize that you are more willing than I to put your emotions out there, therefore you are probably more equipped to handle its after effects.

[Bundahead]

Haha, that's pretty cool, man. Ironically, the cemetery in my podunk town is also Rose Hill Cemetery..

The Rose Hill Cemetary here is absolutely beautiful even though that may seem strange to read. I'll have to post some pics on my picasa. But how bout that for Synchronisity! I'm always effected by this phenomena. Today I had a glimpse of syncronisity. As i rode through the rural parts, I was flipping through the folder I named "Maynard" in my mp3 player (it has all APC and Tool songs), ...and when I looked up from the word Maynard on my player, I passed by Maynard Baptist Church, then Maynard's Mill Road came next, and then after that, Maynard Church Road....I'd never noticed any of these roads before....
Synchronisity, i believe, is another one of those things we don't pay enough attention to and we don't understand. But some wouldn't call it that at all, instead they see it as conincedence. Who's to say they are wrong, ya know, but I enjoy the way my perspective on it makes me feel.

[dirkz]

I love when that happens.

[Inner_Eulogy]

0h man, did u say u sent this to her? I ask like i can't re-read it for myself. I love all of the pieces you wrote. You're purging and its very good to to do that..especially if you are creative and prone to the process. What's cool is in about 3 months from now you can go back and re-read what you wrote. Many times you are able to look on it more objectively. I'm always inspired a little more when I read something that I wrote from a long time back when times were tough. The words seemed to have flowed more freely during the times that I purged; but, my arrangements, sequences, finished products, always seem to come together when time had taken its own effects on my understanding of the situation I was going through.
That was all too wordy but maybe you can see what i'm getting at.
I am positive that this is a great place to share your work, which is riddled with your feelings, without the fear of anyone turning it against you, but sharing it with her might not be as safe. I promise you; I don't say with with any judgements or accusations, only with your feelings in mind. However, I realize that you are more willing than I to put your emotions out there, therefore you are probably more equipped to handle its after effects.

From the bottom of my heart, thank you all for listening.

[Inner_Eulogy]

Where'd everybody go?

[dirkz]

We kind of fell out of discussion.

No offense to your work, but I like it when I can debate.

[Inner_Eulogy]

Since this thread has become somewhat versatile as far as topics are concerned. I'd like to make this particular post for a rant.

Now don't get me wrong become I'm not the slightest bit racist but one thing that pisses me off is how every culture in America has their own little holidays and special things and it's accepted. I'll explain a little better. I like the comedy and I laugh because it's somewhat true to a small extent and for only some white people but, when a black comedian or mexican (I'll leave names out) can sit there and crack jokes about white people all day, it's ok and acceptable. But GOD FORBID a white person made a joke about a black person or a mexican...he'd be RACIST!! Why is it that we have all black colleges? If we had an all white college, we'd be RACIST!! Now I'm not saying that I want to see white colleges or necessarily whites making fun of black people but, what the fuck? Why are we still being segregated? Isn't it time we just fucking call one another humans. I'm tired of always hearing this fucking shit about "my black friend" or "my white friend", why can't they just be your friend? For instance, the last Superbowl, Tony Dungy and Lovie Smith...the first BLACK COACH to win the superbowl. I really don't mean to take the signifigance away from it, trust me on this, it's great and I'm glad that the world is coming around to a better equality for all but, did we ever make a big deal over the FIRST WHITE COACH to win a superbowl, or FIRST MEXICAN COACH? Why not, CONGRATS, you did a great fucking coaching job AS A COACH, OUTSTANDING! This is a whole new day and age, GET THE FUCK OVER IT. Every person should be equal..PERIOD!! Politically correct says we don't profile Muslims of being terrorists but, do you see ANYONE ELSE strapping bombs to themselves trying to fucking kill Americans? Not that I have any problem with the religion or the average Muslim but jesus christ, god forbid we incinuated the truth. Or how people are always trying to sue other people for practically no reason JUST FOR THE MONEY!! Or how celebrities always have to apologize god forbid they voice an opinion or said something that 1 or 2 out of the million groups out there felt offended..because he said he didn't like hot dogs or some bullshit. FUCK YOU, GET OVER IT. I DON'T LIKE HOT DOGS!! They shouldn't have to apologize. Ya' know what else pisses me off, fucking mens urinals, the stand up kind. WHAT THE FUCK IS WRONG WITH SOME GUYS?! You're dick ain't 3ft long ok? So HOW THE FUCK CAN YOU MANAGE TO PISS ON THE FUCKING FLOOR WHEN YOU'RE AIMING AT A PISSER THE SIZE OF A BATTERS BOX? I just don't get it. And another thing, WHERE THE FUCK IS OSAMA? Isn't he the reason we fucking went to Iraq? Are they even fucking looking for him anymore? Oh, he's in the Afghan mountains? WE'LL FUCKING GO TO THE MOUNTAINS AND LOOK!! WHY ARE WE FIGHTING THE CIVIL WAR IN IRAQ, IT'S THEIR FUCKING COUNTRY!! Iran's talking shit and helping the terrorists on top of defying almost the whole world on it's nuclear program, BLOW THAT FUCKING SHIT UP!! NOW WHAT?

....that's enough for now.... (sigh)

[mbouge]

Inner_Eulogy,

I'm with you on your first part. Bravo about the 'racism' against whitey. I was starting to wonder if I were the only one to see it in this way. We're all humans, and don't need to qualify with 'black' or 'white' or 'Mexican' or whatever.
Then it looks like you went off on a ranting rampage, lol. Some I agree with, but some I don't. But I found it entirely humorous - don't take that the wrong way.
I'm glad you can speak your mind.

[Inner_Eulogy]

Inner_Eulogy,

I'm with you on your first part. Bravo about the 'racism' against whitey. I was starting to wonder if I were the only one to see it in this way. We're all humans, and don't need to qualify with 'black' or 'white' or 'Mexican' or whatever.
Then it looks like you went off on a ranting rampage, lol. Some I agree with, but some I don't. But I found it entirely humorous - don't take that the wrong way.
I'm glad you can speak your mind.

Well, you say you agree with some and disagree with some yet, you haven't actually commented. What is it you agree with and why, what don't you agree with and why?

[mbouge]

I certainly agree about people peeing all over the floor in front of the urinal that's the size of a batter's box - wtf is that about?!
I somewhat don't agree about celebrities getting to say what they want. Of course, their entitled to their opinions. But certain celebrities can be highly influential for certain people - not saying it's right, but it is what's happening. For example, take Oprah - very influential for most of the brain dead people who listen to her. If she said one day "I think everyone who wears purple socks should be shot" - what do you think would happen? Rest assured some dumb-ass Oprah worshiper would go on a rampage asking everyone to lift up their pant legs with an AK in their hand. Like I said, it's not right to censor celebrities, but shit like this would happen if they don't censor themselves.

I don't know enough about what's really going on with Iraq to give an educated opinion of where the US should stand.

[dirkz]

I agree with you Inner. I don't get how people say racism is so wrong yet we still have all these barriers, which is racism, in my mind. So every politician who thinks he's the shit for awarding the first black guy to do [whatever], is actually a racist bastard.

If we were to actually abolish racism, as in, no longer noting if something was achieved by a black person, or hispanic person, or muslim, people would get pissed. That does not make sense. Just say "Lovie Smith made it to the Super Bowl. Congratulations." Leave it at that, that's all that needs to be said.

People would say I'm racist for not crediting those people for their achievements. I say Fuck You, you're racist for pointing out that they're a different race.

[Inner_Eulogy]

I certainly agree about people peeing all over the floor in front of the urinal that's the size of a batter's box - wtf is that about?!
I somewhat don't agree about celebrities getting to say what they want. Of course, their entitled to their opinions. But certain celebrities can be highly influential for certain people - not saying it's right, but it is what's happening. For example, take Oprah - very influential for most of the brain dead people who listen to her. If she said one day "I think everyone who wears purple socks should be shot" - what do you think would happen? Rest assured some dumb-ass Oprah worshiper would go on a rampage asking everyone to lift up their pant legs with an AK in their hand. Like I said, it's not right to censor celebrities, but shit like this would happen if they don't censor themselves.

I don't know enough about what's really going on with Iraq to give an educated opinion of where the US should stand.

You just painted a pretty fucking funny picture there. I could imagine that being some comedy skit. But, in all seriousness, I wasn't referring to remarks made quite that outlandish. Just simple things that really aren't a big deal that others try to make into something huge. And to add one more thing to my rant, is fucking reality TV and fucking shows about celebrities, news and gossip. WHY THE FUCK DOES ANYBODY CARE if Brittany fucking cut her hair, or if so and so likes Cheerios for breakfast, or rummage through their garbage to sell a used tampon on E-Bay. FUCK THOSE SHOWS!!! I could care less who's dating who or what they're eating or what they wear, they're normal people just like us but they make a hell of a lot of money. How the FUCK is Kevin Federline a celebrity? America has gone retarded with all this crap. FUCK THEM, enjoy their movies and admire their acting and/or music skills and leave it at that, let them live their lives. FUCK YOU PAPARAZZI!!!

[mbouge]

You just painted a pretty fucking funny picture there. I could imagine that being some comedy skit. But, in all seriousness, I wasn't referring to remarks made quite that outlandish. Just simple things that really aren't a big deal that others try to make into something huge. And to add one more thing to my rant, is fucking reality TV and fucking shows about celebrities, news and gossip. WHY THE FUCK DOES ANYBODY CARE if Brittany fucking cut her hair, or if so and so likes Cheerios for breakfast, or rummage through their garbage to sell a used tampon on E-Bay. FUCK THOSE SHOWS!!! I could care less who's dating who or what they're eating or what they wear, they're normal people just like us but they make a hell of a lot of money. How the FUCK is Kevin Federline a celebrity? America has gone retarded with all this crap. FUCK THEM, enjoy their movies and admire their acting and/or music skills and leave it at that, let them live their lives. FUCK YOU PAPARAZZI!!!

I see where you're coming from. I agree with you. Who eats what breakfast cereal shouldn't hold anyone's interest. But unfortunately, it apparently does - America has gone retarded.

[Inner_Eulogy]

I agree with you Inner. I don't get how people say racism is so wrong yet we still have all these barriers, which is racism, in my mind. So every politician who thinks he's the shit for awarding the first black guy to do [whatever], is actually a racist bastard.

If we were to actually abolish racism, as in, no longer noting if something was achieved by a black person, or hispanic person, or muslim, people would get pissed. That does not make sense. Just say "Lovie Smith made it to the Super Bowl. Congratulations." Leave it at that, that's all that needs to be said.

People would say I'm racist for not crediting those people for their achievements. I say Fuck You, you're racist for pointing out that they're a different race.

DAMN RIGHT!! You're American, nothing else. You don't like it? Then fucking go back to your country. Oh wait, that's right, you came here BECAUSE YOUR COUNTRY FUCKING SUCKED!!! What's with the fucking illegal immigrants? Fuck you! Go back home, request permission to enter our country, and wait. You want to live in America? LEARN SOME FUCKING ENGLISH FIRST. If I were going to move to a different country, I would EXPECT it to be MY responsibility to know and understand the language FIRST. There was something on the news the other day about a Muslim that worked at a meat factory but refused to touch pork during his job, WELL WHY THE FUCK WOULD YOU WORK AT A MEAT FACTORY? Or how some people want to remove the pledge of allegiance to god part or remove "in god we trust" from our currency? You know what, this is America, you don't like it? FUCKING GO BACK HOME!!!

[dirkz]

You are extremely pissed off.

[mbouge]

You are extremely pissed off.

lol. I didn't want to say it, but since you've breached the subject for me - inner, are you having a bad day or something?

I agree with what you're saying, but you got to let go of some of that hatred. It's not good to hold on to things that you can't control, ya know? I applaud your passion and your ability to speak your mind, but I think you could use a couple deep breaths.

It's all good - keep speaking your mind - you just don't need to shout it at us - it seems that most here agree with you anyway. ;-)

[dirkz]

lol. I didn't want to say it, but since you've breached the subject for me - inner, are you having a bad day or something?

Dude, read the second page of this thread. He has reason to be pissed.

[mbouge]

Dude, read the second page of this thread. He has reason to be pissed.

Thank you dirkz for pointing this out. Looks like I was caught posting in a thread that I didn't entirely read. Which, I have found out, was entirely worth reading in the first place.

Inner_Eulogy, you certainly deserve some slack about your anger - my apologies. I am relatively new here, I've got quite a bit of reading to catch up with what is going on. I meant no disrespect. I sincerely hope that things will work out for you.

[Bundahead]

Hey guys! what'a conversation to come back to, lol! And god! how funny is it that i've been ranting about nearly the same thing for the past three days.
Ever since that bridge fell in Minnesota it has been a "Vicarious" free for all on the teli. Oh, how it aggravates me to see reporters interviewing people on the streets as they franticly called loved ones to see if they were Okay. And got-d0-mity (that's Georgian for God Almighty) know's what i'm gonna do if they play that audio again from the cell phone call a women made from her car where she was trapped and dying. Why, why , why the fuck do they air those things....well i guess i know why....ratings ofcourse...but then that means its the Amercian public wanting to hear/see it and that chaps my ass even more. And now, since one bridge has collapsed, every headline reads: "America's Infustructure is Crumbling" I realize we need to handle these things but that's not why the news is doing the story. Its just another story that they can use to scare the shit out of the public and the public can't get enough of it. Hell we don't need to make anymore horror films b/c the evening news has that on lockdown.
And yeah, ain't it a shame that we coined a new term for fuck ups like Paris Hilton. While we should have just stuck with the generic term "dumbass", we came up with Celeb-utant!!!! Huh? Are you kidding me?!!! Celeb-untant? What about Whore? Anyone? No? Okay...so what about...Trash?...or what about.....Loser?
We've talked alot about what needs to happen in the world today. We talk alot about what it would take to make the appropriate changes and frustration is threaded throughout every post. It sure is disheartening to see that the same majority we need to unite for a much larger cause spending their private time watching reality shows about silly celebrities and buying into the shallow bullshit. Are we doomed or what?

[Bundahead]

DAMN RIGHT!! You're American, nothing else. You don't like it? Then fucking go back to your country. Oh wait, that's right, you came here BECAUSE YOUR COUNTRY FUCKING SUCKED!!! What's with the fucking illegal immigrants? Fuck you! Go back home, request permission to enter our country, and wait. You want to live in America? LEARN SOME FUCKING ENGLISH FIRST. If I were going to move to a different country, I would EXPECT it to be MY responsibility to know and understand the language FIRST. There was something on the news the other day about a Muslim that worked at a meat factory but refused to touch pork during his job, WELL WHY THE FUCK WOULD YOU WORK AT A MEAT FACTORY? Or how some people want to remove the pledge of allegiance to god part or remove "in god we trust" from our currency? You know what, this is America, you don't like it? FUCKING GO BACK HOME!!!

I don't like the fact that "one nation, under God" is in our pledge. Simply b/c it doesn't make any sense being in a pledge that belongs to a country which, SUPPOSEDLY, has a seperation of church and state. That part was actually added in the 1950's or somewhere around there. But honostly I don't care for the "pledge of allegience" at all. I don't pledge my allegience to any country. I did to my husband, I do to my friends and family, but not to a country...and especially this country. What would i be pledging my alegience to anyway? What does that even mean? I don't know my government and my government doesn't care about me, Why should i pledge alegience to them? Their alegience certainly doesn't seem to be to me, or you, or anybody besides themselves. And, really, Why is "in god we trust" on our currency? You don't have to be an immigrant or a foreiner to take issue with that. Its irritating that our government puts on one face for the rest of the world but acts differently here at home. We aren't free, we aren't a true democracy....America claims that we're spreading democracy across the globe, but has anyone reminded you lately that we live in a "Republic"? Things like the electoral college do not exist in a democracy, nor do wars that the people don't support. Instead of pledging allegience to the flag; I like to stand in front of it sometimes, right hand over my heart, while I sing The Fiddle and the Drum.

[dirkz]

And now, since one bridge has collapsed, every headline reads: "America's Infustructure is Crumbling"

Fucking thank you, I hate that.

"I'm not gonna drive over [name of bridge] now because all bridges are exactly like the one in Minnesota!!!"

That bridge had failed previous inspections.

Your bridge is not going to collapse.

Get some fucking common sense.

AHHHHH I hate most of America's population.

[/pissed off]

[Bundahead]

what's goin on with all of us? we're all so pissed! lmao! Mood Swings are great aren't they! :)

[dirkz]

Sry Bunda, been a weird couple of days. I'm venting to my girl as we speak. Maybe I'll cheer up tomorrow =P.

EDIT: Holy shit, we've stretched this thread to 4 pages.

[Bundahead]

Sry Bunda, been a weird couple of days. I'm venting to my girl as we speak. Maybe I'll cheer up tomorrow =P.

EDIT: Holy shit, we've stretched this thread to 4 pages.

its all of us man, me included. I find it interesting that all of us are going through same mood swings (is there a full moon on the way soon?). And, BTW, I'm gonna post the comments i made about the flag again; I'm real curious to hear what others opinions are on the subject. Its on page 3 and sometimes people don't go back and read the previous page.

Where did Holy Cheese go? I might'a scared Holy off when i gave him his mission to go steal the weapons, lol. I was in a playful mood that day. I'm gonna have to start changing my avatar to show my moods.

[Bundahead]

I don't like the fact that "one nation, under God" is in our pledge. Simply b/c it doesn't make any sense being in a pledge that belongs to a country which, SUPPOSEDLY, has a seperation of church and state. That part was actually added in the 1950's or somewhere around there. But honostly I don't care for the "pledge of allegience" at all. I don't pledge my allegience to any country. I did to my husband, I do to my friends and family, but not to a country...and especially this country. What would i be pledging my alegience to anyway? What does that even mean? I don't know my government and my government doesn't care about me, Why should i pledge alegience to them? Their alegience certainly doesn't seem to be to me, or you, or anybody besides themselves. And, really, Why is "in god we trust" on our currency? You don't have to be an immigrant or a foreiner to take issue with that. Its irritating that our government puts on one face for the rest of the world but acts differently here at home. We aren't free, we aren't a true democracy....America claims that we're spreading democracy across the globe, but has anyone reminded you lately that we live in a "Republic"? Things like the electoral college do not exist in a democracy, nor do wars that the people don't support. Instead of pledging allegience to the flag; I like to stand in front of it sometimes, right hand over my heart, while I sing The Fiddle and the Drum.

[dirkz]

I agree with that Bunda, when they want me to pledge my allegiance, what do they really mean by that? That you promise not to commit treason? That you'll grab a gun and go fight if this country is ever invaded? I'm not gonna pledge to either of those. If there's a situation where I need to commit treason to dave my family or friends, I'd do it in a heartbeat. Am I gonna pick up a weapon and go fight for this country? Fuck No. Most of the idiots in this country aren't worth defending. As bad as that sounds, like it makes me seem better, it's true. I hate every single dolt who believes the media, who would walk into the Atlantic and keep going if CNN told them to. I know it sounds bad to put myself above them, but it's hard not to. I like to think I'm smarter than the average American, and have more common sense. I may be wrong, but probably not.

[Inner_Eulogy]

You are extremely pissed off.

lol...no, I wasn't having a bad day. I dunno, just felt like a little ranting for whatever reason

[Inner_Eulogy]

I don't like the fact that "one nation, under God" is in our pledge. Simply b/c it doesn't make any sense being in a pledge that belongs to a country which, SUPPOSEDLY, has a seperation of church and state. That part was actually added in the 1950's or somewhere around there. But honostly I don't care for the "pledge of allegience" at all. I don't pledge my allegience to any country. I did to my husband, I do to my friends and family, but not to a country...and especially this country. What would i be pledging my alegience to anyway? What does that even mean? I don't know my government and my government doesn't care about me, Why should i pledge alegience to them? Their alegience certainly doesn't seem to be to me, or you, or anybody besides themselves. And, really, Why is "in god we trust" on our currency? You don't have to be an immigrant or a foreiner to take issue with that. Its irritating that our government puts on one face for the rest of the world but acts differently here at home. We aren't free, we aren't a true democracy....America claims that we're spreading democracy across the globe, but has anyone reminded you lately that we live in a "Republic"? Things like the electoral college do not exist in a democracy, nor do wars that the people don't support. Instead of pledging allegience to the flag; I like to stand in front of it sometimes, right hand over my heart, while I sing The Fiddle and the Drum.

I agree, I'm not really a big fan of it either, I don't really care either way. But it was more of the point of someone saying it doesn't belong and that we should change it. I can see the point the other way too I suppose.

[Bundahead]

I agree with that Bunda, when they want me to pledge my allegiance, what do they really mean by that? That you promise not to commit treason? That you'll grab a gun and go fight if this country is ever invaded? I'm not gonna pledge to either of those. If there's a situation where I need to commit treason to dave my family or friends, I'd do it in a heartbeat. Am I gonna pick up a weapon and go fight for this country? Fuck No. Most of the idiots in this country aren't worth defending. As bad as that sounds, like it makes me seem better, it's true. I hate every single dolt who believes the media, who would walk into the Atlantic and keep going if CNN told them to. I know it sounds bad to put myself above them, but it's hard not to. I like to think I'm smarter than the average American, and have more common sense. I may be wrong, but probably not.

Doesn't it blow your mind that people are still enlisting themselves into the armed forces? I wonder what kind of person would do that? Why would they sign up for that? Try as I might, I can't come up with a logical explanation. These people have to either be ill-informed or down-right fundamentalist themselves and that's scary when you think on it. We very well could be sending our own form of fundamentalism over to Iraq to join in on the civil war being fought over fundamentalism. So instead of us being liberating force, we are a contributing force.
For some people the facts do not play into their decision making capabilities and all that they go on are the mistruths and opinions carried out inside their own heads. If this weren't the case we wouldn't be at war with a country that didn't have anything to do with the 911 attacks; and we wouldn't have idiots still voluteering to fight in a country that has been cleared of any involvement with Al Qaida (i know i spelled that wrong) All the time I hear Bush say that we are at war in Iraq so that the war isn't fought on our soil.
Does that mean we're attracting all the terrorist to Iraq to fight us in order for them to not to make their way to America? Does that mean we are putting millions of Iraqies in danger b/c it keeps the bombs from hitting American Citizens? I guess Bush believes our children's lives are more precious than their's.

[Inner_Eulogy]

Doesn't it blow your mind that people are still enlisting themselves into the armed forces? I wonder what kind of person would do that? Why would they sign up for that? Try as I might, I can't come up with a logical explanation. These people have to either be ill-informed or down-right fundamentalist themselves and that's scary when you think on it. We very well could be sending our own form of fundamentalism over to Iraq to join in on the civil war being fought over fundamentalism. So instead of us being liberating force, we are a contributing force.
.

I have to disagree with this part. Not everybody joines the military because they WANT to fight the war. I can assuringly say that the majority of kids that join the Army are in a point in their young lives where they aren't doing anything better with their lives, it's an escape from where they are and it's a positive direction (war aside). A lot also do it because of the paid school, when you get out they pay for your college. Some choose it because they need the discipline in their lives or for the adventure and/or challenge. Some people just reach a point in their younger lives where they're like "fuck this, I need to do SOMEthing with my life and it's not happening where I'm at". It's one or all of these things....myself included. I joined the Army for all of the above when I was about 22. Basic Training at Fort Benning is NO JOKE, it's probably the toughest one to go of them all for your basic training. And as much as I hated it, I loved it. I loved the challenge. I loved pushing myself to do things I never thought I could before, it gave me a huge feeling of self accomplishment. I ended up leaving the Army after 7mos of being in it for stupid reasons which I won't get into and sometimes regret it and other times I'm glad I did. Nonetheless, it was an experience that shaped me for the better and I don't regret it one bit...as a matter fact I probably needed it. The basic training part of it anyway. I think it would be great if every kid had to go through the 3mo boot camp right out of highschool before anything else. Not that I endorse the idea but it's truly an experience that would benefit anyone.

[Bundahead]

I have to disagree with this part. Not everybody joines the military because they WANT to fight the war. I can assuringly say that the majority of kids that join the Army are in a point in their young lives where they aren't doing anything better with their lives, it's an escape from where they are and it's a positive direction (war aside). A lot also do it because of the paid school, when you get out they pay for your college. Some choose it because they need the discipline in their lives or for the adventure and/or challenge. Some people just reach a point in their younger lives where they're like "fuck this, I need to do SOMEthing with my life and it's not happening where I'm at". It's one or all of these things....myself included. I joined the Army for all of the above when I was about 22. Basic Training at Fort Benning is NO JOKE, it's probably the toughest one to go of them all for your basic training. And as much as I hated it, I loved it. I loved the challenge. I loved pushing myself to do things I never thought I could before, it gave me a huge feeling of self accomplishment. I ended up leaving the Army after 7mos of being in it for stupid reasons which I won't get into and sometimes regret it and other times I'm glad I did. Nonetheless, it was an experience that shaped me for the better and I don't regret it one bit...as a matter fact I probably needed it. The basic training part of it anyway. I think it would be great if every kid had to go through the 3mo boot camp right out of highschool before anything else. Not that I endorse the idea but it's truly an experience that would benefit anyone.

I joined the Navy when I was 19 years old for some of the very same reasons you quoted. I joined b/c i felt there wasn't anything going on in my life and b/c I thought it would help me see the world...and b/c of the paying for school thing. But I was in for a rude awakening. Soon after my arrival at bootcamp in Great Lakes, Michigan in mid February! freezen cold! I'd never seen so much snow in my life! I quickly learned that dispite all the great reasons i thought i had to join were nothing but illusions. The GI bill is seriously lacking in its effectiveness when paying for your college education. You also have to stay enlisted while you are in college, otherwise you loose your benefit. Discipline was ever present, ofcourse, but just b/c you are in need of some form of discipline in your life doesn't mean that you are going to find the type you need in the military. And without one doubt in my mind I assure you the military works over time to dumb people down.
It was truley one of the wierdest experiences of my, life being in that situation. Trapped in a long hallway looking kind of barack with 50 some other girls. I never knew that I could be so mean to people, but that experience tought me that too many hens in my hen house makes me go postal.
There was this one particular girl who stood behind me when we walked in cadence...we were to stand heel to toe, but this girl took it one step further and pressed her entire body up against mine. You might think that sounds hot but believe you me when i say it was NOT. And it didn't stop there; she woke me up in the middle of the night with her face an inch away from mine. Finally I freaked out on her and woke the whole barak with my screaming at her. I went as far as to kick her in the knees, and that's just not me you guys, i'm telling you! Three weeks into the miserable mistake of bootcamp, relief came at last. I'd been tested and then learned I couldn't hear low-frequencies tones and it disqualified me for the sonar technitian job I'd been chosen for. I was going to be one of the first wemon on a submarine and they had promised me a 20,000 dollar bonus upon my completing bootcamp and since this was no longer possible for me, the Navy offered me another job....I requested an honorable discharge. I spent 3 more weeks in a "seperations barac" aka "hell" and then finally they issued me a bus ticket and I took my ass home! I won't even go into how unscrupulus the recruiters were with enlisting physically and mentally unstable people. They'll do anything to reach their quotas, including offering up individuals who have no place in the military.

[dirkz]

There was this one particular girl who stood behind me when we walked in cadence...we were to stand heel to toe, but this girl took it one step further and pressed her entire body up against mine. You might think that sounds hot but believe you me when i say it was NOT. And it didn't stop there; she woke me up in the middle of the night with her face an inch away from mine.

I would go ballistic in both cases. I absolutely hate people touching me against my will. If someone I didn't know were to just touch my arm in harmless conversation, I'd either just up and leave or hold it against them for as long as I knew that person.

As for the waking-you-up, my first reaction would be to punch the face that woke me up.

[Bundahead]

I've been watching too much tv.
and now I'm thinking on violence.
And following those thoughts, I'm led to a place inside myself. Deep seated within there lies the overstated longing for it all to end. The whole world pretends as if they want it to end; yet somehow, night after night, right infront of my eyes I feel the world pushing further and further out from it's seams. What a pointless waist it is that we all should hope for a future given the past we continually create.
Is there any hope?
The television told me today that our DNA is tagged with traits that were accumulated by generations of habits. Its possible that people are becoming pre-disposed to obesity because of the previous generation's bad eating habits. Each time the trait is passed on it becomes more prolific. This not only occurs with eating habits but with other traits as well. The Pit Bull would be an example of this with the way they are made to fight and the things that are done to them to make them do so. The offspring of those animals are pre-disposed to the temperment because of the way previous generations were treated.
Violence has too been bred into humanity and somehow we must breed it out. Not only do we need to make a concerted effort to raise our children with a different understanding; we also need to reconstruct our entire infrastructure to accomodate those means. What would it mean to do that? To really think on this is to arrive in the central point of a question and from it runs a millions different paths one could take. Is it possible that we must find a solution to violence in order to evolve, become more sophisticated?
I haven't forgotten why I started this thread in the first place...
I was tired of cutting it all right in two..
and I still am.

[dirkz]

If you can, I recommend reading "Next" by Michael Crichton. It kinda goes along with this, that soon your health insurance company can test your DNA, and if they find a predispostion to obesity or heart problems, they can drop your coverage without any warning. That sickens me. It's everything that's wrong with America. You have heart problems? Fuck you, we can't make money off of you. Whatever happened to helping someone out in their time of need, instead of dropping their only means to pay for their recovery? Everybody's out to make a buck, and it's damn near ruining this country. I've given up on blind patriotism, always supporting my country no matter what. Truth is, it's not worth supporting most of the time. I've said tht a lot in this thread but it's true to me.

[Bundahead]

If you can, I recommend reading "Next" by Michael Crichton. It kinda goes along with this, that soon your health insurance company can test your DNA, and if they find a predispostion to obesity or heart problems, they can drop your coverage without any warning. That sickens me. It's everything that's wrong with America. You have heart problems? Fuck you, we can't make money off of you. Whatever happened to helping someone out in their time of need, instead of dropping their only means to pay for their recovery? Everybody's out to make a buck, and it's damn near ruining this country. I've given up on blind patriotism, always supporting my country no matter what. Truth is, it's not worth supporting most of the time. I've said tht a lot in this thread but it's true to me.

I agree with you....completely. That's no longer a shocker now, is it? Money is at the root of many, perhaps the majority of today's problems. When society was first being constructed humans made one of their first gigantic blunders. They made possesions define existence and gave it the ability to yield power over those who had less. I think that this might have come from the days when humans were thick in survival mode and a major part of the food chain. During those times survival depended on traveling in small groups and looking out for yourself. But then time passd, humans evolved a little more and the new method of survival became depending on one another, building cities, raising animals, farming. But inside of them still existed the "tags" that unconciously reminded them of the days before when "survival of the fetis" was the way of the land. It manifested its self in human behavior, of which the human had no clue. Traces of the prehistoric mentallity has somehow remained in the collective unconcious and in my opinion is at the root of money, possesions, and their power. If this is truley the case then imagine how different in nature these two survival modes are. At one moment we are depending on a very small group which includes yourself and maybe 10 others and then the next moment we depended on a much larger group which not only had multiplied exponentially but had also reduced the individual need for survival and refocused it on an entire group. No wonder humans are so mixed up. Our survival has depended on inginuity and creativity, which is wildy different than the other creatures of this earth who have been able to survive with the same methods as their prehistoric ancestors.

[Bundahead]

Come on everybody! Let's talk solutions!!!!!!
No matter how wild or far fetched; don't hold back. We can't ever make any progress if we're stuck complaining about the problems. We know what the problems are, lets move on. Forget how hopeless it all seems and just start shooting from the hip. I promise no one will put you down for at least trying.
What can we do to stop the silly monkies from making clubs and beating their brothers down?

[dirkz]

I think the best solution would be if people stopped worrying about the next quater's profits and started thinking long-term.

Btw, when I say "thinking long-term," I don't mean global warming. Goddamn, I'm sick of hearing about global warming. Let's not discuss that here.

[Bundahead]

Hey everybody, its been a little while! I recieved an email from my mom yesterday and I have to share it with you all. Keep in mind that my mom and I don't see eye to eye on anything that has to do with Politics or Religion. After recieving this email I haven't wanted to talk to her either.

Here it goes:
Can a devout Muslim be an American patriot and a loyal citizen?

I forwarded that question to someone who worked in Saudi Arabia for 20 years.

The following is his forwarded reply:

"Theologically, no, because his allegiance is to Allah, the moon god of Arabia.



Religiously, no, because no other religion is accepted by his Allah except Islam (Quran, 2:256)

Scripturally, no, because his allegiance is to the five pillars of Islam and the Quran (Koran).

Geographically, no, because his allegiance is to Mecca, to which he turns in prayer five times a day.

Socially, no, because his allegiance to Islam forbids him to make friends with Christians or Jews.

Politically, no, because he must submit to the mullah (spiritual leaders), who teach annihilation of Israel and destruction of America, the great Satan.

Domestically, no, because he is instructed to marry four women and beat and scourge his wife when she disobeys him (Quran 4:34).

Intellectually, no, because he cannot accept the American Constitution since it is based on Biblical principles and he believes the Bible to be corrupt.

Philosophically, no, because Islam, Muhammad, and the Quran do not allow freedom of religion and expression. Democracy and Islam cannot co -exist. Every Muslim government is either dictatorial or autocratic.

Spiritually, no, because when we declare "one nation under God," the Christian's God is loving and kind, while Allah is NEVER referred to as heavenly father, nor is he ever called love in the Quran's 99 excellent names." Therefore after much study and deliberation....



perhaps we should be very suspicious of ALL MUSLIMS in this country. They obviously cannot be both "good" Muslims and good Americans. Call it what you wish.....it's still the truth.

If you find yourself intellectually in agreement with the above statements, perhaps you will share this with your friends. The more who understand this, the better it will be, for the religious war is bigger and more complex than most Americans currently know or understand.

Barack Hussein Obama, a man with a Muslim upbringing, wants to be our President...

[ivasativa]

Hey everybody, its been a little while! I recieved an email from my mom yesterday and I have to share it with you all. Keep in mind that my mom and I don't see eye to eye on anything that has to do with Politics or Religion. After recieving this email I haven't wanted to talk to her either.

Here it goes:
Can a devout Muslim be an American patriot and a loyal citizen?

I forwarded that question to someone who worked in Saudi Arabia for 20 years.

The following is his forwarded reply:

"Theologically, no, because his allegiance is to Allah, the moon god of Arabia.



Religiously, no, because no other religion is accepted by his Allah except Islam (Quran, 2:256)

Scripturally, no, because his allegiance is to the five pillars of Islam and the Quran (Koran).

Geographically, no, because his allegiance is to Mecca, to which he turns in prayer five times a day.

Socially, no, because his allegiance to Islam forbids him to make friends with Christians or Jews.

Politically, no, because he must submit to the mullah (spiritual leaders), who teach annihilation of Israel and destruction of America, the great Satan.

Domestically, no, because he is instructed to marry four women and beat and scourge his wife when she disobeys him (Quran 4:34).

Intellectually, no, because he cannot accept the American Constitution since it is based on Biblical principles and he believes the Bible to be corrupt.

Philosophically, no, because Islam, Muhammad, and the Quran do not allow freedom of religion and expression. Democracy and Islam cannot co -exist. Every Muslim government is either dictatorial or autocratic.

Spiritually, no, because when we declare "one nation under God," the Christian's God is loving and kind, while Allah is NEVER referred to as heavenly father, nor is he ever called love in the Quran's 99 excellent names." Therefore after much study and deliberation....



perhaps we should be very suspicious of ALL MUSLIMS in this country. They obviously cannot be both "good" Muslims and good Americans. Call it what you wish.....it's still the truth.

If you find yourself intellectually in agreement with the above statements, perhaps you will share this with your friends. The more who understand this, the better it will be, for the religious war is bigger and more complex than most Americans currently know or understand.

Barack Hussein Obama, a man with a Muslim upbringing, wants to be our President...

I have been living with muslims for the past 3 years. Not in the U.S. I dont know maybe the ones over there are different. But these ones come from mostly Mediterranean countries (North Africa) and some from the middle east. As radical as some of them may be, buddy let me tell ya, they are confused. They are also suffering within the boundaries of their religion and its just not easy to change. We are in Italy right? Where everything but your tight scarf is normal and ok. The ones who would like to integrate into the society just cant do it because there are lots of hypocritical bastards within their society.

I also come from the Balkan region, where as most of you know we had a war in the past decade cause of muslim.......... whatever.....
I have always had that sort of feeling, that once a muslim always a muslim and that some of those sick dogmas are written in their DNA. There is a saying where I come from : A good muslim is a dead muslim. :D But then I also feel that its really an emotional and spiritual sin to generalize anything like that. Who knows, maybe if we keep them framed as such people in our minds , we are not really helping them to change.

[Bundahead]

I have been living with muslims for the past 3 years. Not in the U.S. I dont know maybe the ones over there are different. But these ones come from mostly Mediterranean countries (North Africa) and some from the middle east. As radical as some of them may be, buddy let me tell ya, they are confused. They are also suffering within the boundaries of their religion and its just not easy to change. We are in Italy right? Where everything but your tight scarf is normal and ok. The ones who would like to integrate into the society just cant do it because there are lots of hypocritical bastards within their society.

I also come from the Balkan region, where as most of you know we had a war in the past decade cause of muslim.......... whatever.....
I have always had that sort of feeling, that once a muslim always a muslim and that some of those sick dogmas are written in their DNA. There is a saying where I come from : A good muslim is a dead muslim. :D But then I also feel that its really an emotional and spiritual sin to generalize anything like that. Who knows, maybe if we keep them framed as such people in our minds , we are not really helping them to change.

And, they're not the only ones who need to change, the blame and shame is equally shared among religions and their followers. That email my mother sent me was so completely misguided in my opinion. She doesn't even have the name of the man who stated that OPINION, but she forwarded the damn thing along as if God himself had came down and gave her the information. To me, this is what "Right in Two" is all about. My stomach is in knots right now.

Statements such as the following spread countless mistruths. This one is taken directly from the email:
"Spiritually, no, [they can't be loyal citizens] because when we declare "one nation under God," the Christian's God is loving and kind, while Allah is NEVER referred to as heavenly father, nor is he ever called love in the Quran's 99 excellent names."

I mean, you tell me, how many things do you see wrong with this statement right there?

[ivasativa]

And, they're not the only ones who need to change, the blame and shame is equally shared among religions and their followers. That email my mother sent me was so completely misguided in my opinion. She doesn't even have the name of the man who stated that OPINION, but she forwarded the damn thing along as if God himself had came down and gave her the information. To me, this is what "Right in Two" is all about. My stomach is in knots right now.

Statements such as the following spread countless mistruths. This one is taken directly from the email:
"Spiritually, no, [they can't be loyal citizens] because when we declare "one nation under God," the Christian's God is loving and kind, while Allah is NEVER referred to as heavenly father, nor is he ever called love in the Quran's 99 excellent names."

I mean, you tell me, how many things do you see wrong with this statement right there?

Right IS about that , and also about the people like you ... that is, you are one of the angels :)

There is that theory (its an old thing), well which is based on some experiments, I was just reading about it somewhere but i cant recall now where. Anyway, a critical mass is needed so that the change will have a more significant effect. Im sure its happening. Will take time.

[dirkz]

Hey everybody, its been a little while! I recieved an email from my mom yesterday and I have to share it with you all. Keep in mind that my mom and I don't see eye to eye on anything that has to do with Politics or Religion. After recieving this email I haven't wanted to talk to her either.

Here it goes:
Can a devout Muslim be an American patriot and a loyal citizen?

I forwarded that question to someone who worked in Saudi Arabia for 20 years.

The following is his forwarded reply:

"Theologically, no, because his allegiance is to Allah, the moon god of Arabia.



Religiously, no, because no other religion is accepted by his Allah except Islam (Quran, 2:256)

Scripturally, no, because his allegiance is to the five pillars of Islam and the Quran (Koran).

Geographically, no, because his allegiance is to Mecca, to which he turns in prayer five times a day.

Socially, no, because his allegiance to Islam forbids him to make friends with Christians or Jews.

Politically, no, because he must submit to the mullah (spiritual leaders), who teach annihilation of Israel and destruction of America, the great Satan.

Domestically, no, because he is instructed to marry four women and beat and scourge his wife when she disobeys him (Quran 4:34).

Intellectually, no, because he cannot accept the American Constitution since it is based on Biblical principles and he believes the Bible to be corrupt.

Philosophically, no, because Islam, Muhammad, and the Quran do not allow freedom of religion and expression. Democracy and Islam cannot co -exist. Every Muslim government is either dictatorial or autocratic.

Spiritually, no, because when we declare "one nation under God," the Christian's God is loving and kind, while Allah is NEVER referred to as heavenly father, nor is he ever called love in the Quran's 99 excellent names." Therefore after much study and deliberation....



perhaps we should be very suspicious of ALL MUSLIMS in this country. They obviously cannot be both "good" Muslims and good Americans. Call it what you wish.....it's still the truth.

If you find yourself intellectually in agreement with the above statements, perhaps you will share this with your friends. The more who understand this, the better it will be, for the religious war is bigger and more complex than most Americans currently know or understand.

Barack Hussein Obama, a man with a Muslim upbringing, wants to be our President...


I'm sorry, Bunda, but once again I have to disagree. Your post makes sense, but I don't see it as grounds to be suspicious of all Muslims. Just because they aren't in agreement with our ways doesn't mean that they have a hatred for every American. That's just media bull. I don't mind them living in America, I don't expect the next Muslim I see to hate me and want to kill me. If they immigrated into America, they're most likely trying to make a better life for them and their families. Good for them.

And another thing, leave Barack Obama alone. Yes, I know, he was taught in a radical Muslim school, but that DOES NOT make him a radical Muslim. Don't think that he's a bad person because his middle name is Hussein either. All of that is libel and slander by his opposition. He's as American as anyone else in the Senate.

Feel free to argue, I like discussion.

EDIT: Wait, are the last 3 paragraphs in your post part of the email, or something you added into your post? I may be confused.

[Bundahead]

I'm sorry, Bunda, but once again I have to disagree. Your post makes sense, but I don't see it as grounds to be suspicious of all Muslims. Just because they aren't in agreement with our ways doesn't mean that they have a hatred for every American. That's just media bull. I don't mind them living in America, I don't expect the next Muslim I see to hate me and want to kill me. If they immigrated into America, they're most likely trying to make a better life for them and their families. Good for them.

And another thing, leave Barack Obama alone. Yes, I know, he was taught in a radical Muslim school, but that DOES NOT make him a radical Muslim. Don't think that he's a bad person because his middle name is Hussein either. All of that is libel and slander by his opposition. He's as American as anyone else in the Senate.

Feel free to argue, I like discussion.

EDIT: Wait, are the last 3 paragraphs in your post part of the email, or something you added into your post? I may be confused.

What's up buddy?! You just missed the part where it says its an email my mom sent me. I didn't write that about muslims!!!lol no way!. here i'm gonna repost the email.

[Bundahead]

THE FOLLOWING POST IS AN EMAIL I RECIEVED FROM MY MOM.


THE FOLLOWING POST IS A EMAIL I RECIEVED FROM MY MOM.

[Bundahead]

THIS IS AN EMAIL I RECIEVED FROM MY MOM:

************************************************** ***********

Can a devout Muslim be an American patriot and a loyal citizen?

I forwarded that question to someone who worked in Saudi Arabia for 20 years.

The following is his forwarded reply:

"Theologically, no, because his allegiance is to Allah, the moon god of Arabia.



Religiously, no, because no other religion is accepted by his Allah except Islam (Quran, 2:256)

Scripturally, no, because his allegiance is to the five pillars of Islam and the Quran (Koran).

Geographically, no, because his allegiance is to Mecca, to which he turns in prayer five times a day.

Socially, no, because his allegiance to Islam forbids him to make friends with Christians or Jews.

Politically, no, because he must submit to the mullah (spiritual leaders), who teach annihilation of Israel and destruction of America, the great Satan.

Domestically, no, because he is instructed to marry four women and beat and scourge his wife when she disobeys him (Quran 4:34).

Intellectually, no, because he cannot accept the American Constitution since it is based on Biblical principles and he believes the Bible to be corrupt.

Philosophically, no, because Islam, Muhammad, and the Quran do not allow freedom of religion and expression. Democracy and Islam cannot co -exist. Every Muslim government is either dictatorial or autocratic.

Spiritually, no, because when we declare "one nation under God," the Christian's God is loving and kind, while Allah is NEVER referred to as heavenly father, nor is he ever called love in the Quran's 99 excellent names." Therefore after much study and deliberation....



perhaps we should be very suspicious of ALL MUSLIMS in this country. They obviously cannot be both "good" Muslims and good Americans. Call it what you wish.....it's still the truth.

If you find yourself intellectually in agreement with the above statements, perhaps you will share this with your friends. The more who understand this, the better it will be, for the religious war is bigger and more complex than most Americans currently know or understand.

Barack Hussein Obama, a man with a Muslim upbringing, wants to be our President...

[Bundahead]

BTW:
the last three paragraphs (including the one about obama) ARE A PART OF THE EMAIL

I think she sent this to me b/c she knows i support Obama. I have a gut feeling He could be a good leader b/c of his mulitfaceted background. I still can't believe she sent this to me. I really can't.

[Bundahead]

Right IS about that , and also about the people like you ... that is, you are one of the angels :).

What a nice thing to say. Now excuse me, I have to go fetch my ego from the clouds. And I'm working on that "critical mass" thing.....looks like it might take a while....starting with my 14 year old niece, whom my mother is dumbing down with this mess of lies. I believe the better part of the solution to bring about a critical mass is by beginning a rigorous campaign with our children (yes, i believe that children are our future, and yes, i hear whitney houston in my head now) It breaks my heart to know that Haliegh (my niece) is being taught ignorance and being fed sick values that will only work to further cripple our already bleak future. But its nice to hear someone say that they believe the critical mass in on the way. I'm not just waiting...I'm trying my best to help with the gathering.

[Inner_Eulogy]

I have been living with muslims for the past 3 years. Not in the U.S. I dont know maybe the ones over there are different. But these ones come from mostly Mediterranean countries (North Africa) and some from the middle east. As radical as some of them may be, buddy let me tell ya, they are confused. They are also suffering within the boundaries of their religion and its just not easy to change. We are in Italy right? Where everything but your tight scarf is normal and ok. The ones who would like to integrate into the society just cant do it because there are lots of hypocritical bastards within their society.

I also come from the Balkan region, where as most of you know we had a war in the past decade cause of muslim.......... whatever.....
I have always had that sort of feeling, that once a muslim always a muslim and that some of those sick dogmas are written in their DNA. There is a saying where I come from : A good muslim is a dead muslim. :D But then I also feel that its really an emotional and spiritual sin to generalize anything like that. Who knows, maybe if we keep them framed as such people in our minds , we are not really helping them to change.

From what we get from the media, it in the least gives me and many others the impression that they could care less about change, other then wiping us Americans (or should I say infidels) off the map.

[Inner_Eulogy]

What a nice thing to say. Now excuse me, I have to go fetch my ego from the clouds. And I'm working on that "critical mass" thing.....looks like it might take a while....starting with my 14 year old niece, whom my mother is dumbing down with this mess of lies. I believe the better part of the solution to bring about a critical mass is by beginning a rigorous campaign with our children (yes, i believe that children are our future, and yes, i hear whitney houston in my head now) It breaks my heart to know that Haliegh (my niece) is being taught ignorance and being fed sick values that will only work to further cripple our already bleak future. But its nice to hear someone say that they believe the critical mass in on the way. I'm not just waiting...I'm trying my best to help with the gathering.

<ugh> Whitney Houston <shivers>

[dirkz]

Alright, I get it now. I thought the first part was the email, and the last three paragraphs were Bunda's own thoughts. I was completely wrong. =P

So disregard what I posted. Actually, don't disregard it, just act like I said it to Bunda's mom, I guess.

[ivasativa]

From what we get from the media, it in the least gives me and many others the impression that they could care less about change, other then wiping us Americans (or should I say infidels) off the map.

Im sorry I cant really sense the tone of your post. Im not sure if there is some sarcasm in there or not.. but in case there isnt any:

There are several perspectives to this whole issue in the world. I dont think one should take a stand to any one of them. If you grip on any opinion you are in the game and not one of the angels anymore. So I really do not want to talk about the possible perspectives, rather I would say : Please turn off your T.V. You dont need it in order to be informed. You can gather all the information needed from your life and other different sources.
I know that that's what you get from you media and I am very sorry about that. Believe me, I so often.... grieve for americans because of that (hey, my whole family lives there). We also , on this side of the ocean are being attacked with this propaganda of fear , but we have been un-lucky enough to have had a lot of serious social problems to be shocked enough to develop some kind of resistance to fear, And we are victims of this global economic regime that is american led simply because we are weaker economies. But in that we have been allowed a lot more personal freedom. We get to see the many perspectives of these stories.

The general mentality of regions where some serius bombing has happened and where people are socially being torn apart just so they may be more vulnerable , weak and easier to manipulate is one of dissatisfaction, dis- concern and distrust.

Im not saying we are better off, lets get that straight , its just a matter of different values. I am happy living in a less developed social society, but a lot freer social society and a lot less polluted environment.

Really I dont want to get any more political than this, its not of my interest. I wanna be an angel also. I am trying to support the critical mass!
And so , I can just say once more, turn off your t.v. They Are REALLY Lying and the reason that there is a tug of war is because some people believe them and go for it.

And please dont take my post totally personally.

[ivasativa]

What a nice thing to say. Now excuse me, I have to go fetch my ego from the clouds. And I'm working on that "critical mass" thing.....looks like it might take a while....starting with my 14 year old niece, whom my mother is dumbing down with this mess of lies. I believe the better part of the solution to bring about a critical mass is by beginning a rigorous campaign with our children (yes, i believe that children are our future, and yes, i hear whitney houston in my head now) It breaks my heart to know that Haliegh (my niece) is being taught ignorance and being fed sick values that will only work to further cripple our already bleak future. But its nice to hear someone say that they believe the critical mass in on the way. I'm not just waiting...I'm trying my best to help with the gathering.

Honestly I really had a lot of doubt about the POSSIBILITY of a critical mass forming up on this earth, but in the past couple of years I am seeing it. Its happening.
Its a crucial step to start including children in this, however it takes a lot of ... oh i dont know discipline , effort, work call it whatever, awareness maybe all of those things to actually keep yourself awake enough to not fall out of this mass. Its easy to get caught in any system, (academia for eg. I just have to get out of it soon) and once I stop being part of this critical mass I am no longer supporting it, surely I will not be able to pass on to my child this spirit.
But Im sure that as the mass gets bigger then it will all be so much easier.

"The Bringers of the Dawn" Barbara Mircinak.. .. .. .. .. mehm .. *no comment*

[dirkz]

If you all have the time, read State of Fear by Michael Crichton. It talks mostly about global warming, but has a cool section on how the media twists everything and basically can convince America of anything because nobody makes their own decisions anymore, they just listen to whatever the media tells them and think they're well informed.

[/rant]

[Bundahead]

Alright, I get it now. I thought the first part was the email, and the last three paragraphs were Bunda's own thoughts. I was completely wrong. =P

So disregard what I posted. Actually, don't disregard it, just act like I said it to Bunda's mom, I guess.

My big Bro told me to find some real barbaric stuff in the old testament and write a reply to the email. I thought that was funny and told him i'd forward it to all the email adresses it came from....my mom included. Can you believe that crap about "holy war" and it being bigger than we all know. Kinda creepy....

[ivasativa]

If you all have the time, read State of Fear by Michael Crichton. It talks mostly about global warming, but has a cool section on how the media twists everything and basically can convince America of anything because nobody makes their own decisions anymore, they just listen to whatever the media tells them and think they're well informed.

[/rant]



Thats what 'Bowling for Columbine' was about.

[dirkz]

Thats what 'Bowling for Columbine' was about.

I've never seen that, but I might want to check it out now.

[Inner_Eulogy]

Well well, I've been waiting some time for someone to post here and it seems it has died out for some reason. I wanted to bring it back by posting at least something but I didn't really know what to say so I guess I'm just going to spurt out random events of my life. So for one, I just moved to a new apartment this past weekend. It really fucking sucked because A) I had to carry heavy shit all day in the sun B) As I was moving everything in the fucking power went out (Thanks ComED) and C) Comcast was at the wrong fucking address and when he ended up coming to the right one but all their computer information was for another address it fucked everything up and I have no cable or internet at home, now I have to miss time at work because it's either tmrrw during my work hours or a week and a half away for after work hours....(Fuck Comcast).

Aside from that, things are going much better between myself and the ex. We still aren't back together but, we talk much more now, we hang out sometimes, I got myself some booty a few times (high five) and for the most part we're working on finding that friendship again. I know some of you Tool enthusiasts think Linkin Park sucks but, I like them and her and I are going together this Sat to see their concert. That should be fun, it also gives me a good chance to show to her that I can show her a good time and have fun.

Um, that's all or now off the top of my head for now. OH yeah, I don't know if I had mentioned to anybody before about losing my book of poems but it magically appeared during my move, I'm very happy about that. I thought they were lost forever somewhere.

[dirkz]

High Five!! /kazakhastan voice

That's great, bro, just spending time with her is better than nothing. I don't consider myself a Linkin Park fan, but there's a few of their songs that I don't hate =P.

[Bundahead]

well...i've missed this thread..
i just havn't been in the right frame of mind. Inner its funny that you've been moving and that you told us that.
My husband and i just bought a house and some land. I've waited many years and through many little apartments to make it here. But life always has that bittersweet way of slapping the breath out of you from behind..and that's what it did.
5 days ago my husband came home from work and as he opened the door to come in my cat Sophie darted out the door. but no biggy, She goes outside all the time. Everyday. She loves the social life. She'll sit on the steps infront of the apartment building and welcome everyone home. She's done this for four years, as long as we've lived in this apartment
She'd only been outside for maybe 45 minutes. Typical, but it was time for her to come in and take her regular spot on the balcony, where she sits ontop of the table. I called her and called her and i havn't stopped since. I love her so much. We searched until dark and then the next day we searched more. Still no Sophie! I can't hardly take this. Its obvious someone took her. We've had her for 7 years, she's never wondered off. My sweet baby girl, she had a tag with her name and my phone number and my apartment number, why would someone do this? I have flyers everywhere and each time it rains i go back and change them just to make sure its readable. I've walked neighborhoods........
Its been five days and nothing. No sophie? no more sophie? after seven years of spending everyday with her..just vanished? I'm having a hard time coping. To some my grief may sound excessive but they can't convince my heart of that because its breaking and there's nothing i can do about it. I want it to stop!
So I too have been moving all this week. Into the home i've been working towards for years. I always imagined this to be an exciting time filled with good times and memories. Sometimes i think life must be mocking me. Everytime i hear the tinkle of car keys i think it's sophie's tag jingling as she runs to me. I sit on my balcony in the chair that i normally sit next to her in..and I dread the day i have to leave this god forsaken apartment b/c it makes me feel like i'm telling her goodbye, and i can't bear to tell her goodbye. I keeping saying "no" when it comes over me but I just keep crying. my neck hurts and my nose is raw....I want her to come home. I don't want her to be something else i can no longer touch. I can't hug a memory and all i want to have is her in my arms. I'm so sad. "

[ivasativa]

well...i've missed this thread..
i just havn't been in the right frame of mind. Inner its funny that you've been moving and that you told us that.
My husband and i just bought a house and some land. I've waited many years and through many little apartments to make it here. But life always has that bittersweet way of slapping the breath out of you from behind..and that's what it did.
5 days ago my husband came home from work and as he opened the door to come in my cat Sophie darted out the door. but no biggy, She goes outside all the time. Everyday. She loves the social life. She'll sit on the steps infront of the apartment building and welcome everyone home. She's done this for four years, as long as we've lived in this apartment
She'd only been outside for maybe 45 minutes. Typical, but it was time for her to come in and take her regular spot on the balcony, where she sits ontop of the table. I called her and called her and i havn't stopped since. I love her so much. We searched until dark and then the next day we searched more. Still no Sophie! I can't hardly take this. Its obvious someone took her. We've had her for 7 years, she's never wondered off. My sweet baby girl, she had a tag with her name and my phone number and my apartment number, why would someone do this? I have flyers everywhere and each time it rains i go back and change them just to make sure its readable. I've walked neighborhoods........
Its been five days and nothing. No sophie? no more sophie? after seven years of spending everyday with her..just vanished? I'm having a hard time coping. To some my grief may sound excessive but they can't convince my heart of that because its breaking and there's nothing i can do about it. I want it to stop!
So I too have been moving all this week. Into the home i've been working towards for years. I always imagined this to be an exciting time filled with good times and memories. Sometimes i think life must be mocking me. Everytime i hear the tinkle of car keys i think it's sophie's tag jingling as she runs to me. I sit on my balcony in the chair that i normally sit next to her in..and I dread the day i have to leave this god forsaken apartment b/c it makes me feel like i'm telling her goodbye, and i can't bear to tell her goodbye. I keeping saying "no" when it comes over me but I just keep crying. my neck hurts and my nose is raw....I want her to come home. I don't want her to be something else i can no longer touch. I can't hug a memory and all i want to have is her in my arms. I'm so sad. "
I completely understand, for the same reason I will not ever have a dog again,,, (I think) But making changes, taking new steps, pull other changes with them.... its the mechanism of this existence....

[Inner_Eulogy]

Well, seems this thread has died down quite a bit. Another update to my ordeal if anyone cares to hear about it is I'm at the point where I just don't know what to do with her anymore. I love her to death and I've been trying so hard to work things out but all she can do is say she doesn't want it right now and isn't ready for it. Part of me logically understands that she wants this time to work on herself and the other part of me is feeling extremely resentful that she screwed me over yet here I am trying to make it work. Shouldn't it be the other way around. We hang out pretty often now and talk on the phone practically everyday but I'm reaching a point where I'm just frustrated and fucking done with trying. If it's not good enough for her then why should I even be trying? I know part of her does still love me but one minute she'll sleep with me and then the next when I go to hug her, she'll give me a hug from the side...it's like, what the fuck is that? I wish she would just make up her mind. I dunno, my patience has grown thin and this tedium I have chosen is one I'm about ready to walk away from. I don't know what else to do but it's taking it's toll on me. I think I'm just going to stop talking to her altogether and hanging out with her other than discussion about our son. I'm mad just thinking about it as I write because I don't feel it's fair, this should be a 50/50 thing and it's more like 99/1. Any suggestions?

[dirkz]

Man, I hear you. My girlfriend decided she wanted to "take a break" from dating for a while - so now she still acts like she wants to date me, but says she doesn't want to. I didn't have much of a say in it. My friend reassured me that she still likes me and that I should just sit tight for a while.

I don't understand women. Guess I'll just wait and hope she wants to date in the future.

*listens to 'The Patient' in head*

[miketh74]

Well, seems this thread has died down quite a bit. Another update to my ordeal if anyone cares to hear about it is I'm at the point where I just don't know what to do with her anymore. I love her to death and I've been trying so hard to work things out but all she can do is say she doesn't want it right now and isn't ready for it. Part of me logically understands that she wants this time to work on herself and the other part of me is feeling extremely resentful that she screwed me over yet here I am trying to make it work. Shouldn't it be the other way around. We hang out pretty often now and talk on the phone practically everyday but I'm reaching a point where I'm just frustrated and fucking done with trying. If it's not good enough for her then why should I even be trying? I know part of her does still love me but one minute she'll sleep with me and then the next when I go to hug her, she'll give me a hug from the side...it's like, what the fuck is that? I wish she would just make up her mind. I dunno, my patience has grown thin and this tedium I have chosen is one I'm about ready to walk away from. I don't know what else to do but it's taking it's toll on me. I think I'm just going to stop talking to her altogether and hanging out with her other than discussion about our son. I'm mad just thinking about it as I write because I don't feel it's fair, this should be a 50/50 thing and it's more like 99/1. Any suggestions?

Hey I_E,

I read this thread from the beginning to dirkz's post. Primarily cuz I went through your whole ordeal about 3 years ago. Your reactions to your ex are about as parallel to mine when I was in that situation. It's great to find out that I wasn't being overdramatic or oversensitive to all the crap I took from her. We get along now better than when we were together...probably cuz we now have something more in common other than our daughter. Seriously, if more people were like you and me....there would be no hard feelings between former partners. I was married to my ex with a 4 year old girl for 8 years and we ended up getting divorced after all that. I was CRUSHED!! I don't want to bore you with all kinds of details, but suffice to say I have married again last year and just had another daughter back in January. I only wish I would have discovered this thread earlier to have been a friendly ear of sorts. Reading your first few posts dug up a lot of old heartbreak and it humbles me now and I have you to thank for it. Funny, but Tool got me through all of those times, as I'm sure their music has done for you and others. I sure ran the gambit of emotions.

I would certainly like to visit this thread and post if you all don't mind. You guys kinda founded this thread and I don't want to impose or intrude. I believe I could add insight to these topics once in a while. As long as my being from STL and being a Cards fan doesn't put a wrench in the works. I know you and dirkz are probably Cubs fans....

:P

[Bundahead]

Man, I hear you. My girlfriend decided she wanted to "take a break" from dating for a while - so now she still acts like she wants to date me, but says she doesn't want to. I didn't have much of a say in it. My friend reassured me that she still likes me and that I should just sit tight for a while.

I don't understand women. Guess I'll just wait and hope she wants to date in the future.

*listens to 'The Patient' in head*

I must keep reminding myself of this. i must keep reminding myself of this this. I MUST Keep Reminding myself of this! I MUST KEEP RE-MIND-ING MYSELF OF THIS! honest to god, the words couldn't ring more true. If there weren't any rewards to reap or any loving embrace to see me through I'd most likely fall off the edge that i've come so curiously close to at many times. And the older I get the triggers have had to be less and less to set me off into that downward spiral. Its like the old straw on the camel's back theory...and lately everything has been the last straw. This camels back should be broken by now, but alas, for all the pain and misery that has been salted over my life into old and new wounds; pure joy exists in the laughter of my 7 year old nephew and in the light that encompasses my 3 year old neice. The loving embrace of my family is always there to see me through that tunnel. I'm sure my suffering over losing a pet pales in the shadows of one losing a girlfriend...which feels much like death does...but without a funeral, without that outpouring of affection that comes when a loved one dies.

And since i am a woman, I've tried to come up with some knowledge about my gender that i could share with you that would make it all seem a little less hopeless. But the truth is that we are all just trying to navagate our way through this life with flawed logic as our compass. Sometimes we make our lives harder on ourselves b/c we become fixated on a certain reality and can sometimes manage our lives based on that reality...There's that "free will" again, b/c we are choosing that reality. Like Inner...he loves his girl and has years of history and most likely had/has big plans for the future of the three of them...but all of that is a reality he has created. And who's to say if that is truely the reality he is to be living. Maybe if we let go of things that are slipping away another reality will present its self; one that's more tangible and that produces a more beneficial experience. That seems to be what happened with Mike. No matter what, we still have to go through that greiving process where we shut the door to our rooms and find a quiet place to cry. I know that doesn't sound very "manly" but its the due process of letting something go. The first day you sob like a baby and your mind races through memories of the past, broken dreams for the future, and that picture of the loved one you pine for frozen in your mind's eye. With every vision or thought that surfaces in your mind you sob uncontrollably again. Then the next morning comes and you cry again, but this time not as quite as hard as you did the day before. The next day you don't cry as soon as your eyes open and....you feel a little guilty for that, but you have to leave the solitude of your room and re-enter the world. However the emptiness still envelopes you and you look at the rest of the world through empty and tired eyes. Your head still pounds from the last two days you spent crying. The emptiness might as well be a brightly colored cloak or better yet a black veil for all the world to see.
When we "choose" to let someone go (i.e. they havn't died or been upducted ect) its more abstract (but just as painful!). Our minds can play tricks on us...the person is still there...there's still hope....You may let that person go, grieve, and begin to move on and then see that person again and in that moment decide unconciously to try and rebirth that relationship. You have to make a real decision to end the relationship for good in order to not keep repeating that awful grieving process. Eventually, with time, that much sought after relief will come. That picture frozen in the forefront of your mind will become manageable and you'll be able to hang it along the walls in the halls of your heart next to all the others you've lost. And when more time has passed you can take a walk through the gallery of lost loves and not wince in pain. And so is the life of us humans. I am so sorry that these are the lots we ALL have to bear. But what else can we do, ey? In the wise words of Dora in "finding nemo" Just keep swimming.

[Bundahead]

Hey I_E,

I read this thread from the beginning to dirkz's post. Primarily cuz I went through your whole ordeal about 3 years ago. Your reactions to your ex are about as parallel to mine when I was in that situation. It's great to find out that I wasn't being overdramatic or oversensitive to all the crap I took from her. We get along now better than when we were together...probably cuz we now have something more in common other than our daughter. Seriously, if more people were like you and me....there would be no hard feelings between former partners. I was married to my ex with a 4 year old girl for 8 years and we ended up getting divorced after all that. I was CRUSHED!! I don't want to bore you with all kinds of details, but suffice to say I have married again last year and just had another daughter back in January. I only wish I would have discovered this thread earlier to have been a friendly ear of sorts. Reading your first few posts dug up a lot of old heartbreak and it humbles me now and I have you to thank for it. Funny, but Tool got me through all of those times, as I'm sure their music has done for you and others. I sure ran the gambit of emotions.

I would certainly like to visit this thread and post if you all don't mind. You guys kinda founded this thread and I don't want to impose or intrude. I believe I could add insight to these topics once in a while. As long as my being from STL and being a Cards fan doesn't put a wrench in the works. I know you and dirkz are probably Cubs fans....

:P


Hey dude, I'm just going to speak for I. E. here and let you know that everyone is welcome. I think its sweet that you asked but it would defy the very subject matter of this thread to exclude anyone. Identifying with the Angels is all about dealing with our humanity.our free will, our violent tendancies, and most importantly what we as individuals can do to change things.. These topics many times lead to us talking about our own personal lives. It gets off subject, sure, but it always flows in such a way that we are led back to the meat of the subject every time. I have Dirkz and I. E. to thank for that. They seem like good open minded people..
So, Post whatever, whenever you feel the urge.

[Inner_Eulogy]

Hey dude, I'm just going to speak for I. E. here and let you know that everyone is welcome. I think its sweet that you asked but it would defy the very subject matter of this thread to exclude anyone. Identifying with the Angels is all about dealing with our humanity.our free will, our violent tendancies, and most importantly what we as individuals can do to change things.. These topics many times lead to us talking about our own personal lives. It gets off subject, sure, but it always flows in such a way that we are led back to the meat of the subject every time. I have Dirkz and I. E. to thank for that. They seem like good open minded people..
So, Post whatever, whenever you feel the urge.

Well said. Even I admit to being an arrogant hypocrite, pretty often on these forums as a matter fact. I'm sure if take a look around at many of my posts, a large majority of them are set on calling people out for what is in my opinion, a complete lack of common sense or just flat out stupid. I can be the nicest and most caring person ever, am usually am but, I can also be a total prick when I see fit. Hence, when I see somebody trying to say that The Pot is about your third eye or that Jambi is about the chakra system, I just think it's fuckin' retarded and they need to let it go. Just because those themes were prevalent in Aenima and Lateralus doesn't mean they are in this album. Yet somehow certain people try so hard to make something out of it when it's just simply not there. I'll be the first person to admit that I don't know everything, but I'll also be the first to call you out when I disagree or if it's something that is OBVIOUSLY incorrect. You see, I'm a perfectly balanced contradiction of myself.

And thank you all for sharing your thoughts and best wishes for the tough time I was going through. Things are not where I would like them to be but, they are much improved and all I can do is learn to appreciate what I do have and quit dwelling on the things I don't.

[dirkz]

Maybe if we let go of things that are slipping away another reality will present its self; one that's more tangible and that produces a more beneficial experience.

I'm not ready to let this go yet - she's said there's still hope and even if she didn't I couldn't give up just yet. She's the only person I've ever had real feelings for and feel like it's worth pursuing, even if I make a fool of myself.

[miketh74]

Thanks for the warm welcome Bundahead. I'm glad you mentioned that you're female. It's good to have your opinion in this thread and your last one was dead on. I have to say again, I only wish I would have discovered it a lot earlier.

Without trying to rant, I have a complaint that I'm sure others share and it's something I've thought about often for years now. Tool is a band that definitely doesn't care about appealing to everyone, obviously. In an interview I saw with Maynard and Dan Carey, they mentioned they were filling a gap in rock music. As being a Tool fan, they don't know how right they are.....actually, I'm sure they do. It's a dam shame with rock music in the past 10 years how lacking it is of feeling and inspiration. I have no doubt that this can be blamed on so much hypocritical and politically correct crap that people have to grow up with today. Trying to write music with the feeling that someone is always trying to cover your mouth over something you're not supposed to say hinders an artist's ability. I know this is nothing new, but it puts in perspective how special Tool really is. They don't even care about how many records they sell. They keep their gold and platinum albums next to the crapper in one of their jam rooms (lol). You can plainly see the dedication, not only in their musical abilities, but how they approach the music scene in general. I know growing up I put up with a lot of being politically correct and watching what I said and I'll be the first to say that was the only aspect discouraging me from starting a band on a serious level. It eats up way too much time and starts conflicts with other bandmates. These issues have spiraled way out of control since then so I can only imagine what it's like now. The fact that Tool can set aside their egos and ideas, considering how gifted they are, blows me away with awe. If only more bands could see this tragedy and take action against it. As for me....I never gave myself the credit or the smarts to follow through with this, but I haven't given up hope. I still jam with the hope that someday there will be more of Tool and like minded bands.

Again, I appreciate you guys and gals in here. I sincerely believe some of the smartest and dedicated Tool fans reside in this forum making it very special to me.
Later. :)

[Inner_Eulogy]

I'm not ready to let this go yet - she's said there's still hope and even if she didn't I couldn't give up just yet. She's the only person I've ever had real feelings for and feel like it's worth pursuing, even if I make a fool of myself.

Dirk, trust me when I say this. If there's ANYTHING that I learned during this situation is that if you push for it or try too hard, it will only push her away. That will GUARANTEE you will not get what you want. BUT, if you just lay back and take it as it goes and not necessarily act like you don't care..but don't act like your life depends on it, then if she still cares...she WILL come around. It will take time. Trust me, patience is the last virtue on my list and I've been pushing her for months to get back together. Funny thing is, the minute I finally got over it and stopped pushing and trying to force things was the minute she came around and started to open up. My new motto is "whatever"....or "que sera sera" if you will. I know it sounds totally fucking backwords, but you're only giving up if you continue to push her for it. The real trying comes when you give her the time and space, you make it known how you feel and what you want and you leave it at that. If she still cares, things will work themselves out. I'm saying this because it's the truth brother, I didn't understand it at all for many months and I still think it's fucking ass backwords...but that's women and that's life. You got to learn to play the game. Take my advice and I'm sure things will come around, if they don't then it wasn't going to happen anyway.

[Inner_Eulogy]

Thanks for the warm welcome Bundahead. I'm glad you mentioned that you're female. It's good to have your opinion in this thread and your last one was dead on. I have to say again, I only wish I would have discovered it a lot earlier.

Without trying to rant, I have a complaint that I'm sure others share and it's something I've thought about often for years now. Tool is a band that definitely doesn't care about appealing to everyone, obviously. In an interview I saw with Maynard and Dan Carey, they mentioned they were filling a gap in rock music. As being a Tool fan, they don't know how right they are.....actually, I'm sure they do. It's a dam shame with rock music in the past 10 years how lacking it is of feeling and inspiration. I have no doubt that this can be blamed on so much hypocritical and politically correct crap that people have to grow up with today. Trying to write music with the feeling that someone is always trying to cover your mouth over something you're not supposed to say hinders an artist's ability. I know this is nothing new, but it puts in perspective how special Tool really is. They don't even care about how many records they sell. They keep their gold and platinum albums next to the crapper in one of their jam rooms (lol). You can plainly see the dedication, not only in their musical abilities, but how they approach the music scene in general. I know growing up I put up with a lot of being politically correct and watching what I said and I'll be the first to say that was the only aspect discouraging me from starting a band on a serious level. It eats up way too much time and starts conflicts with other bandmates. These issues have spiraled way out of control since then so I can only imagine what it's like now. The fact that Tool can set aside their egos and ideas, considering how gifted they are, blows me away with awe. If only more bands could see this tragedy and take action against it. As for me....I never gave myself the credit or the smarts to follow through with this, but I haven't given up hope. I still jam with the hope that someday there will be more of Tool and like minded bands.

Again, I appreciate you guys and gals in here. I sincerely believe some of the smartest and dedicated Tool fans reside in this forum making it very special to me.
Later. :)

Hey dude, I wanna start a band. I can sing and I'm damn good at writing lyrics...

[Tool_Is_Sick]

Oh not at all. I don't think anyone could ever truly master human nature. I mean, I haven't even come close to mastering my damn self..lol. I just have many life experiences, think of myself as intelligent and can somewhat better understand some things better than others. But I admit to be a hypocrite because it's always harder to take your own advice than it is to give it. For instance, I'm very good at talking people through relationship problems as I have a very good sense for that kind of thing and what works best (if I'm not involved of course) but, god for bid could I ever freaking take my own advice. I was with a girl for nearly over 7yrs and we have a almost 4yr old son. Things were great for the first few years and slowly things fell apart and we stuck it through as it got worse and worse until I finally found out just a few months ago she had been cheating on me for a few months with her ex-boyfriend. She now lives in her own place and as you can imagine, I was absolutely crushed...I know she is truly to blame for her choice but, at the same time I'm extremely conflicted because I feel so much guilt after I realized how much of an ass I was being to her for such a long time. I would put her down if she did something or didn't do something, I lied to her about doing drugs, I would feel unloved from her so I would talk to other women to get a feeling of being wanted, even visited my ex-girlfriend once but I never did anything. These are all things I started doing long before she ever finally stopped caring, and rightfully so I guess. It took this experience for me to realize how much I truly love her and have made so many changes in these last few months to become a better person. Problem is, I want now what she doesn't. She feels the need to prove to herself that she can do it on her own and become more independant while I sit her practically begging for another chance. Right now, she only wants friendship and time and space, and for nearly 3mos now I still haven't been able to give that to her because I'm so utterly heartbroken and I need her back in my life but I am consistently pushing her away by bringing up anything related to relationship stuff because right now she feels a strong need to work on herself and do things on her own but it's killing me at the same time. Today will now be only 2days that I haven't called her or texted. I'm trying so hard too. It doesn't make it easier either that we ended up sleeping together on the 4th but according to her that was ONLY because she was drunk. I wonder if I'd be reading into it too much to think that means she does still have feelings for me but is afraid to admit that to me let alone herself. So, as you can see....do I understand human nature...somewhat, can I explain it...fairly well, am I any good at it myself...FUCK NO

Sorry, I just vented all sorts of shit...

You told me to read this thread and man you were totally right. I have to say that NoOne is perfect and your an awesome dude. I know this just by understanding what you went through and the fact that you admit you were wrong and you wanna change for the better. My heart goes out to you man. I have been in a similiar situation but not as serious. Good luck. And remember we are always here for you to vent out all sorts of shit. Peace bro. BTW, your soulmate is out there somewhere...Keep looking and keep your head up as well.

[Bundahead]

I'm not ready to let this go yet - she's said there's still hope and even if she didn't I couldn't give up just yet. She's the only person I've ever had real feelings for and feel like it's worth pursuing, even if I make a fool of myself.

and i'm really not saying that you SHOULD give up. Everyone's relationships take it's own course and turn out in their own ways. You are pretty young..and i hesitate to even bring that up so please don't hold it against me that i have. In my opinion you are extremely mature for your age...but that doesn't mean she is. Girls at that age arn't normally "trying" to play games....they're just confused. Their emotions are too complex for them to understand themselves. Their bodies are constantly sending them mixed messages that their brains are not yet equipped to understand. We are sensitive to every little message our bodies and minds send to us...however many of those messages contradict one another and we don't know what to do with that. It takes growing up and life's experiences to help us make sense of what's going on.
I've been thinking on the relationships i carried on in highschool and one stands out in particular. His name was Jonathan, the sweetest person alive, popular, good looking, and i set my eyes on him. I dated him for a short time, took his virginity, and then all of a sudden my fascination with him was over. I dumped him in an awful way that he didn't deserve. Two years later he was killed in a car accident along with 4 other friends of mine, one of which was Jonathan's best friend, Bryan. Bryan had asked me to the prom that year, i accepted and then blew him off a couple of weeks before the actual date of the prom to go with someone else.
I couldn't in my wildest dreams be that heartless today and had I understood myself and the world as i do today I would have never done that! But the fact of the matter is that was just one situation that stands out....there were many many more where i acted just as selfish. There is such striking contrast between the woman i am today and the girl I was back then. I wish i could go back and slap the shit out of me...or atleast least shake the shit out of me! If i could, I'd say, "Renee!! WTF Girl?! Stop this shit! You're such a bitch! Do you really want to be remembered this way?" But I bet that wouldn't have worked either. I had to grow up. What I'd give now to atleast be able to pick up the phone and call Jonathan today and tell him just how sorry I am, but that's not possible. I'm now married to a man who didn't know me during those times. We've been together for 10 years now, married for 7. We've done things that hurt one another on several occasions but we never doubted our desire to be together. It takes two people who are willing to try their best to never go to bed angry. A little advice given to me from my dad on my wedding day. He died suddenly six months later in a car accident. Just one more life experience that's made me who I am today, which is hopefully a better version of me.

[miketh74]

Hey dude, I wanna start a band. I can sing and I'm damn good at writing lyrics...

Right on dude. You got some good ideas rolling around in there. I got the drums....you got the lyrics....need 2 more unless you play guitar too?

[miketh74]

BTW, I agree with the girls can be complex and have mixed messages statement Bunda. Raising my 7 yr old can be very tricky and sensitive. Can only imagine what she'll be like in another 5 to 6.......<sigh>.

[gjamison27]

I'm your guitar player!

[Bundahead]

Right on dude. You got some good ideas rolling around in there. I got the drums....you got the lyrics....need 2 more unless you play guitar too?

Yah...he's got some demons rolling around in there too. lol Just messin with u I.E.. (we all got demons) :)

[Inner_Eulogy]

Right on dude. You got some good ideas rolling around in there. I got the drums....you got the lyrics....need 2 more unless you play guitar too?

Unfortunately I don't, I tried to learn at one time but I got impatient after about a week and then my guitar had gotten broken. Perhaps one day.

[Inner_Eulogy]

Yah...he's got some demons rolling around in there too. lol Just messin with u I.E.. (we all got demons) :)

And I get along with them just fine too. =-)

[gjamison27]

So the drummer is from MO, the singer is from Chicago, and me the guitar player is from SC.....

How's this gonna work?

[miketh74]

So the drummer is from MO, the singer is from Chicago, and me the guitar player is from SC.....

How's this gonna work?

Stranger crap has happened. Guess we'll have to send each other little samples of our music. If we dig each other, guess we'll have to all meet. LOL.

Don't you wish it were that simple?

[Bundahead]

I completely understand, for the same reason I will not ever have a dog again,,, (I think) But making changes, taking new steps, pull other changes with them.... its the mechanism of this existence....

Hey Iva, i've been meaning to post a reply to this ever since you posted it. Sorry it took me so long to say Thanks for the comment. As a matter of fact my husband and I have been waiting a long time to get a dog. It didn't seem fair to the dog to have it live in an apartment so we kept telling ourselves that once we're in a house, we'll get our dog. But now this with our Sophia has put a damper on that as well. I still havn't decided if I want to set myself up for another heartbreak even if it is 16 years later on down the road. Its very interesting to me how us humans love to take on pets knowing that they will most likely die before us. I'm one of those retards who give their hearts completely to an animal and everytime I loose one I GRIEVE for a long time. I once heard that in Ancient Egypt, if the family cat died, the head of household would shave his eyebrows. I guess I'm not grieving THAT bad! I'm leavin my eyebrows where they are.

[Inner_Eulogy]

I guess I'm not grieving THAT bad! I'm leavin my eyebrows where they are.

LOL, yeah, that'd look pretty funny

[miketh74]

Unfortunately I don't, I tried to learn at one time but I got impatient after about a week and then my guitar had gotten broken. Perhaps one day.

Perhaps....

Hey dude, do you ever find it hard to listen to other music AFTER you've just listened to a Tool cd? Maybe it's just me, but I wait 'til I play all the other crap before I jam some Lateralus. Nothing compares or comes close. Just thinkin' out loud. How's the ex thing goin' if you don't mind me asking?

[Tool_Is_Sick]

So the drummer is from MO, the singer is from Chicago, and me the guitar player is from SC.....

How's this gonna work?

Can i be your drum tech?!? I wanna get involved too. <Feels left out:pulls head out and starts to cry:>

[miketh74]

Can i be your drum tech?!? I wanna get involved too. <Feels left out:pulls head out and starts to cry:>

Can you pick up the bass?

[ivasativa]

Hey Iva, i've been meaning to post a reply to this ever since you posted it. Sorry it took me so long to say Thanks for the comment. As a matter of fact my husband and I have been waiting a long time to get a dog. It didn't seem fair to the dog to have it live in an apartment so we kept telling ourselves that once we're in a house, we'll get our dog. But now this with our Sophia has put a damper on that as well. I still havn't decided if I want to set myself up for another heartbreak even if it is 16 years later on down the road. Its very interesting to me how us humans love to take on pets knowing that they will most likely die before us. I'm one of those retards who give their hearts completely to an animal and everytime I loose one I GRIEVE for a long time. I once heard that in Ancient Egypt, if the family cat died, the head of household would shave his eyebrows. I guess I'm not grieving THAT bad! I'm leavin my eyebrows where they are.

Hey though , I just remembered this conversation I had not long ago in fact, about a woman who was simply so attached to her dog that after it disappeared (the pattern ha?) she was just hit so badly that she ended up at the psychologist. She actually healed by getting another dog as soon as possible. Ive heard of the same cases more than once.... I guess it works for some,.,, But you keep those eyebrows though.

[Tool_Is_Sick]

Can you pick up the bass?

its funny you say that. When i was young about 8 years old, i played the bass but i did not stick to it. I practiced for about 2 years and i gave up. :( I know im an dumbass for not sticking with it and getting better but at the time video games were more important. Yeah...go figure. but i would give it a chance....but i still think i would give the band a better chance if i put on a long white coat and take the roll of a drum tech. ha Peace.

[Inner_Eulogy]

Perhaps....

Hey dude, do you ever find it hard to listen to other music AFTER you've just listened to a Tool cd? Maybe it's just me, but I wait 'til I play all the other crap before I jam some Lateralus. Nothing compares or comes close. Just thinkin' out loud. How's the ex thing goin' if you don't mind me asking?

Well, she came over with my son last night for a while and we had a long talk and she agreed to set up some counseling. She cuddled with me and kissed me but later after she left told me it made her uncomfortable...go fuckin' figure

[dirkz]

Well, she came over with my son last night for a while and we had a long talk and she agreed to set up some counseling. She cuddled with me and kissed me but later after she left told me it made her uncomfortable...go fuckin' figure

I do not understand females.

[miketh74]

Well, she came over with my son last night for a while and we had a long talk and she agreed to set up some counseling. She cuddled with me and kissed me but later after she left told me it made her uncomfortable...go fuckin' figure

NO offense to other gals or your ex, but that sounds exactly like a female statement when it comes to those kind of feelings. Well.....as long as things are cool between ya all.

[miketh74]

its funny you say that. When i was young about 8 years old, i played the bass but i did not stick to it. I practiced for about 2 years and i gave up. :( I know im an dumbass for not sticking with it and getting better but at the time video games were more important. Yeah...go figure. but i would give it a chance....but i still think i would give the band a better chance if i put on a long white coat and take the roll of a drum tech. ha Peace.

I hear ya. If I had not fallen in love with drums, the bass would've been my next love of my life. If you like the drums man, you should pick up the bass again!! It's all about the rhythm.

[Inner_Eulogy]

NO offense to other gals or your ex, but that sounds exactly like a female statement when it comes to those kind of feelings. Well.....as long as things are cool between ya all.

LMAO, no kiddin, right. Well, we both agreed finally we were going to give things an honest attempt so we'll see where it goes. Surely I will keep you guys updated as time goes by. Will I do what it takes or shallI do myself in? Hell, I should make this a reality show.

[miketh74]

LMAO, no kiddin, right. Well, we both agreed finally we were going to give things an honest attempt so we'll see where it goes. Surely I will keep you guys updated as time goes by. Will I do what it takes or shallI do myself in? Hell, I should make this a reality show.

Awesome man....I sincerely hope the best for the two of you. If you can get through this, you both have significantly reinforced your relationship which I think is great b/c not many can say they got that far.

"To bring the pieces back together, rediscover communication".

Love it. :)

[Inner_Eulogy]

"To bring the pieces back together, rediscover communication".

So true...I've listened to that song many times by now

[miketh74]

So true...I've listened to that song many times by now

Yea, that song got me through a lot. Certainly appropriate for this topic.

[miketh74]

Where did everyone in here go?

[Inner_Eulogy]

Where did everyone in here go?

I've been on during lunch practically everyday but the thread seems to have died down a bit....it's a shame. Albeit, I really have nothing interesting to share at the moment unless maybe I post some of my poetry. If anyone would like that I'd be happy to share, otherwise I didn't see it fit to just blantantly impose my ingenius on all those unwilling.

[Inner_Eulogy]

I'll take that as a no? lol

[miketh74]

I'll take that as a no? lol

By all means.....

Not very good at turning my thoughts into poetry. That's why I leave songwriting up to the genius minds.

[Tool_Is_Sick]

You two sweethearts are so cute together. I love you guys. haha Just kidding.

[Inner_Eulogy]

You two sweethearts are so cute together. I love you guys. haha Just kidding.

Sorry honey, my wang don't swang that way....(that was random)

[Inner_Eulogy]

By all means.....

Not very good at turning my thoughts into poetry. That's why I leave songwriting up to the genius minds.

Then I'll post a morsal or two later after work when I have time.

[miketh74]

Sorry honey, my wang don't swang that way....(that was random)

LMAO

:D

Ya, I ain't lookin' to plug Doug.

Hey Inner, sometime I'll have to send you some samples of my percussion capabilites. Send me some good lyrics though man.

:)

[Inner_Eulogy]

LMAO

:D

Ya, I ain't lookin' to plug Doug.

Hey Inner, sometime I'll have to send you some samples of my percussion capabilites. Send me some good lyrics though man.

:)

Will do, I never got around to it the other day. I'll try to do so later today.

[Bundahead]

Where did everyone in here go?

Here I am : ) I think i've spent a little bit too long in introversion lately. I've been stuck inside my head while trying to work on this book i've been writing. And ofcourse, I've been reeling on politics, religion, and humanity in my notebooks as i've been trying to purge.....and now to go back and try to make sense of it all...lol, well, its been fun.. Sometimes I think its all pointless and in vain and i yurn for an outlet to send all the work that i produce...maybe one day I will have that. Most likely the only thing holding me back is me. However, I'm not sure that i can change the world alone. As a matter of fact, i know i can't and that's a bit suphocating as well. And today, I'm jealous of Maynard. It must be a wonderful feeling to not just be writing for himself but to know his work has the potential to go somewhere and mean something to somebody else besides himself. And music is such a precious art form. When i went to go see them in Atlanta back in July, i spent most of the night in silence. I kept quiet so that i could take it all in. My memory would have to be the canvas and my heart the wall upon which it would be hung. That's why I think we all have to listen to all the songs they've wrote over and over again. Its not just something that you can leave hung up and glance at everytime you pass by, but instead you have to take the time and listen in order to feel the emotions it brings about. Its not as instintanious as a picture or a sculpture and that leads me to believe that its a much deeper form of art, as long as its treated as such and Tool definitely dedicates themselves to developing the artform to its fullest potential.
BTW I just want to say that you guys are so neat to me. Thanks for giving me this place to come to. For it wouldn't be the same place if you all weren't still here each time i return. Its like a familiar home.
But get ready to argue folks, b/c I got us some political stuff on the way. I love it when we get into the debates.

[Bundahead]

Sorry honey, my wang don't swang that way....(that was random)

ahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaaa! LMAO! Now that's some good poetry right there.

[dirkz]

Here I am : ) I think i've spent a little bit too long in introversion lately. I've been stuck inside my head while trying to work on this book i've been writing. And ofcourse, I've been reeling on politics, religion, and humanity in my notebooks as i've been trying to purge.....and now to go back and try to make sense of it all...lol, well, its been fun.. Sometimes I think its all pointless and in vain and i yurn for an outlet to send all the work that i produce...maybe one day I will have that. Most likely the only thing holding me back is me. However, I'm not sure that i can change the world alone. As a matter of fact, i know i can't and that's a bit suphocating as well. And today, I'm jealous of Maynard. It must be a wonderful feeling to not just be writing for himself but to know his work has the potential to go somewhere and mean something to somebody else besides himself. And music is such a precious art form. When i went to go see them in Atlanta back in July, i spent most of the night in silence. I kept quiet so that i could take it all in. My memory would have to be the canvas and my heart the wall upon which it would be hung. That's why I think we all have to listen to all the songs they've wrote over and over again. Its not just something that you can leave hung up and glance at everytime you pass by, but instead you have to take the time and listen in order to feel the emotions it brings about. Its not as instintanious as a picture or a sculpture and that leads me to believe that its a much deeper form of art, as long as its treated as such and Tool definitely dedicates themselves to developing the artform to its fullest potential.
BTW I just want to say that you guys are so neat to me. Thanks for giving me this place to come to. For it wouldn't be the same place if you all weren't still here each time i return. Its like a familiar home.
But get ready to argue folks, b/c I got us some political stuff on the way. I love it when we get into the debates.

Are the previous and future debates to be included in you book?

[Bundahead]

Are the previous and future debates to be included in you book?

Ah-ha!...well, not as such. But no doubt these conversations and debates have interwoven themselves within characters' personalities and the storylines. More over than that, the many different views and cultural backgrounds among all of us and our willingness to speak openly about them keep with the underlying theme of the entire book and lend to my frame of mind when i sit down to write. The book it's self is unusual in its composure and the story is quite a bit different than anything we're used to... but ofcourse, in the end, they save the world.

[Inner_Eulogy]

ahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaaa! LMAO! Now that's some good poetry right there.

Well that wasn't actually the poetry I had meant to add but I keep getting sidetracked. I don't have time while at work, then I pick up my son, go home, make dinner, play with him for a while and then kick back and watch Tv, watch a movie or play something on the computer. Anyhow, it's friday and I should be able to get something on here sometime tonight I'm hoping.

Bunda, welcome back by the way...

[Inner_Eulogy]

Ok well, I've been lazy and I haven't posted any lyrics/poetry but it's been a few days and I'm back to square one in my situation. I don't know what the fuck the problem is but I'm ready to crack that girl's neck (not literally). Things were getting better and better and than last week was completely perfect, we got into an argument on friday night and we've been at each other's throats ever since and we're both bull headed so we're getting nowhere but going in a downward spiral. Right now we almost hate each other's guts and I'm angry, every day since friday I've been angry. I don't trust her one bit, I've become overwhelmingly posessive of her because of what she did (cheating). I've become a complete asshole and unreasonable and I realize it but I get so mad abotu every little thing now and I don't know how to let it go. I feel the need to be on the phone with her at all times or have her over at my place at all times for that reassurement that she's not doing anything behind my back again. I truly don't believe she is or that she would put us both through that again but I've been ruining everything by not controlling how it makes me feel. I've been extremely stressed about everything lately and I don't know what to do. How do I let go? I'm afraid to let go, I feel as if I have my entire life on the line here and I'm too afraid to give in. Any suggestions?

[Tool_Is_Sick]

Wow man. Well my answer to this is...IF you love her so much and you do everything to make her smile, feel wanted, etc and eventually she cheats on you...that should let you know that she doesnt have the same feelings as you do towards her. Its hard to swallow but its reality. I went through the cheating game before and i thought to myself..."I am a good person and she doesnt fuckin deserve my cock if she is going to dissrespect me." She should have the respect enough to tell you that she doesnt want to see you anymore but she didnt....Dude, I know you love her but there are plenty of beautiful women in this world...Go find one that treats you the way you should be treated. Like i said...its hard to swallow your love for her and move on, but if you wanna stop being stressed out and constantly worrying about her every movement...Do yourself a favor, Go do a Guys Night Out..Have a couple shots..squeeze a couple butt cheeks and find someone new to call the "Mrs". I hope you get through this issue and resolve it.

P.S. I am not Dr. Phil but I hope this helps.

[Inner_Eulogy]

Wow man. Well my answer to this is...IF you love her so much and you do everything to make her smile, feel wanted, etc and eventually she cheats on you...that should let you know that she doesnt have the same feelings as you do towards her. Its hard to swallow but its reality. I went through the cheating game before and i thought to myself..."I am a good person and she doesnt fuckin deserve my cock if she is going to dissrespect me." She should have the respect enough to tell you that she doesnt want to see you anymore but she didnt....Dude, I know you love her but there are plenty of beautiful women in this world...Go find one that treats you the way you should be treated. Like i said...its hard to swallow your love for her and move on, but if you wanna stop being stressed out and constantly worrying about her every movement...Do yourself a favor, Go do a Guys Night Out..Have a couple shots..squeeze a couple butt cheeks and find someone new to call the "Mrs". I hope you get through this issue and resolve it.

P.S. I am not Dr. Phil but I hope this helps.

Well, the cheating thing, or at least when I found out was back in the beginning of April. If you recall the previous posts on the subject, we were also together for 7yrs and have a 4yr old son together. It's easier said than done to just "let it go and jump on the bandwagon". And the fact is that she HAS been trying very hard in showing me that I can trust her again and putting up with me and my shit and issues and it's my responsibility for how I handle those feelings. Granted she gave me the reason to not trust her but she has tried very hard and I've been a complete ass. I just need to learn how to let it go and give it a fair chance to see what's really there.

[Tool_Is_Sick]

ok I didnt know you have a child with her. That changes everything. Well from what you just said...STOP BEING AN ASS...if you love her man you might have to put all your negative thoughts towards her aside and try to look at the postive things she is trying to show you. She is obviously upset that she cheated on you and that it was a HUGE mistake on her part. let go of the grudge you hold against her and forgive her man. Once again its totally different when there is a child involved. Good Luck My friend.

[miketh74]

Here I am : ) I think i've spent a little bit too long in introversion lately. I've been stuck inside my head while trying to work on this book i've been writing. And ofcourse, I've been reeling on politics, religion, and humanity in my notebooks as i've been trying to purge.....and now to go back and try to make sense of it all...lol, well, its been fun.. Sometimes I think its all pointless and in vain and i yurn for an outlet to send all the work that i produce...maybe one day I will have that. Most likely the only thing holding me back is me. However, I'm not sure that i can change the world alone. As a matter of fact, i know i can't and that's a bit suphocating as well. And today, I'm jealous of Maynard. It must be a wonderful feeling to not just be writing for himself but to know his work has the potential to go somewhere and mean something to somebody else besides himself. And music is such a precious art form. When i went to go see them in Atlanta back in July, i spent most of the night in silence. I kept quiet so that i could take it all in. My memory would have to be the canvas and my heart the wall upon which it would be hung. That's why I think we all have to listen to all the songs they've wrote over and over again. Its not just something that you can leave hung up and glance at everytime you pass by, but instead you have to take the time and listen in order to feel the emotions it brings about. Its not as instintanious as a picture or a sculpture and that leads me to believe that its a much deeper form of art, as long as its treated as such and Tool definitely dedicates themselves to developing the artform to its fullest potential.
BTW I just want to say that you guys are so neat to me. Thanks for giving me this place to come to. For it wouldn't be the same place if you all weren't still here each time i return. Its like a familiar home.
But get ready to argue folks, b/c I got us some political stuff on the way. I love it when we get into the debates.

Glad to hear from you. I know how you feel when you speak of jealousy of Maynard. I have total envy of the whole band, but it's constructive envy. It just makes me feel like I'm using those feelings to achieve a higher thinking of the spiritual side of life and I do owe that all to Tool. Most people who aren't fans of Tool like their music, but demean them for being whack-jobs or freaks. When really I think they're more down to earth than most of the shallow fucks crowding this planet.

Anyway, a big cheers to you Bunda and good luck with all your creativity in writing. I also tend to envy people who can put their thoughts and feelings into words so eloquently......like MJK.

:))

[miketh74]

ok I didnt know you have a child with her. That changes everything. Well from what you just said...STOP BEING AN ASS...if you love her man you might have to put all your negative thoughts towards her aside and try to look at the postive things she is trying to show you. She is obviously upset that she cheated on you and that it was a HUGE mistake on her part. let go of the grudge you hold against her and forgive her man. Once again its totally different when there is a child involved. Good Luck My friend.

That's so true man, but......once there is a break in trust between two people, there's always going to be second thoughts when those feelings come up again in the future.....AND THEY WILL. It is totally up to I_E to let the grudge go and act like it didn't happen, but I know from personal experience THAT IS EASIER SAID THAN DONE. I'm not saying the relationship can't be fixed, but it's easier to forgive than to forget. Only time can heal it IMO.

Shit.....I do feel like Dr. Phil now. And I don't mean to.

;/

[Bundahead]

OkaY Inner, don't get mad at me, but i gotta say this:
1. Never, ever, ever stay with someone b/c you have children together! Its the worst mistake of all. Your kid sees and hears everything, even when you THINK You've done everything to keep him away from it. Not only that, these are the formadable years of your child's life and the dynamics you and his mom are exhibiting are detremental to his growth. You can tell me he doesn't see it until you are blue in the face but I know better. As long as you remain a constant in his life and live by example so that he sees how a real man is supposed to treat others then he has real life experiences to gleen from when he's older.
2. She CHEATED on you...remember when i told you that it doesn't matter how badly you say you want her back now that you would never be able to forget that? Well you havn't and you resent her for that. And that's why you are being such an ass. Sure, you can be bullheaded, i think we all know that, but she's known you for a long time and between the two of you its almost a mute point. Has she groveled for your forgiveness yet? Has she gone out of her way to prove you can trust her again? It seems as if you are falling all over yourself to change in the ways she claimed she wanted you to but what has she done?
3. Tell yourself its over and dead. GRIEVE! Don't try to spend time with her. Don't go for long talks on the phone. Please please please, stop looking for the next time she'll hop in the bed with you. B/C apparently sex doesn't mean the same thing to her as it does to most women....its not a precurser to a relationship or a way to feel closer to someone she loves.

I think the most important thing to consider is your son. I am not ignorantly giving you advice when i tell you that none of this situation is condusive to his upbringing. It would be much healthier for him to see you in a good relationship with a woman that reciprecates your love so that he can learn from that. And the same goes for his mother. It'd be a whole lot better for him to see her in a good relationship....but honestly, i think this example is going to have to be given by you and a future lady. If she couldn't remain faithful to you in the past then there's a good chance that she'll never be faithful to anyone, and that can mean different men coming in and out of her life (and you can't change that and still help your son) In other words, distance yourself from her romantically and only deal with her on parental issues. One day you will meet someone else and you'll have learned from past mistakes. And through the example of your healthy relationship will your son learn what it means to be a man.

But I really believe the only way to relieve this awful angst inside of You is to feel the burn now. Go ahead and thrust the knife in your heart and let it bleed. I promise you that you will feel like a new man in about 2 months!

[Bundahead]

Next,
On Dr. Phil:
Inner Eulogy confronts Bundahead asking "who the fuck do You think you are? You don't even have kids!"

[Inner_Eulogy]

Next,
On Dr. Phil:
Inner Eulogy confronts Bundahead asking "who the fuck do You think you are? You don't even have kids!"

LOL

[Inner_Eulogy]

OkaY Inner, don't get mad at me, but i gotta say this:
1. Never, ever, ever stay with someone b/c you have children together! Its the worst mistake of all. Your kid sees and hears everything, even when you THINK You've done everything to keep him away from it. Not only that, these are the formadable years of your child's life and the dynamics you and his mom are exhibiting are detremental to his growth. You can tell me he doesn't see it until you are blue in the face but I know better. As long as you remain a constant in his life and live by example so that he sees how a real man is supposed to treat others then he has real life experiences to gleen from when he's older.
2. She CHEATED on you...remember when i told you that it doesn't matter how badly you say you want her back now that you would never be able to forget that? Well you havn't and you resent her for that. And that's why you are being such an ass. Sure, you can be bullheaded, i think we all know that, but she's known you for a long time and between the two of you its almost a mute point. Has she groveled for your forgiveness yet? Has she gone out of her way to prove you can trust her again? It seems as if you are falling all over yourself to change in the ways she claimed she wanted you to but what has she done?
3. Tell yourself its over and dead. GRIEVE! Don't try to spend time with her. Don't go for long talks on the phone. Please please please, stop looking for the next time she'll hop in the bed with you. B/C apparently sex doesn't mean the same thing to her as it does to most women....its not a precurser to a relationship or a way to feel closer to someone she loves.

I think the most important thing to consider is your son. I am not ignorantly giving you advice when i tell you that none of this situation is condusive to his upbringing. It would be much healthier for him to see you in a good relationship with a woman that reciprecates your love so that he can learn from that. And the same goes for his mother. It'd be a whole lot better for him to see her in a good relationship....but honestly, i think this example is going to have to be given by you and a future lady. If she couldn't remain faithful to you in the past then there's a good chance that she'll never be faithful to anyone, and that can mean different men coming in and out of her life (and you can't change that and still help your son) In other words, distance yourself from her romantically and only deal with her on parental issues. One day you will meet someone else and you'll have learned from past mistakes. And through the example of your healthy relationship will your son learn what it means to be a man.

But I really believe the only way to relieve this awful angst inside of You is to feel the burn now. Go ahead and thrust the knife in your heart and let it bleed. I promise you that you will feel like a new man in about 2 months!

Well, for starters...we're not trying to work things out simply for our son...you're absolutely correct that is the wrong way to go about it. We're trying because we do love one another. You're right that what she did is something I'll never forget, but that also doesn't mean that she is THAT type of a person. I've come to terms with what happened at this point now months later. There's NO excuse for what she did and she is completely at fault for that but I also accept the blame that I put her in a place that made her feel the need to seek out something, we both did. Neither was getting what they needed out of the relationship and both of us were depressed and angry and bitter for many months. Even I went and visited my ex-girlfriend one night (before I had known about what she was doing) but, as I sat on the couch with my ex at her place and she tried to kiss me I suddenly got up and left and all I could think about was her (the baby's momma). Part of that pisses me off and I've expressed this to her and came clean about it recently to her was the fact that I stopped myself from allowing it to go that far and she did not. Moreso, it wasn't just a one time thing that she did it. Many people have told me "man, fuck that girl..look what she did to you, how could you even talk to her anymore?" Honestly, my logic says they're all right and I should hate her fucking guts, and a part of me does. But there's the other part of me that knows I was a really shitty boyfriend to her for so long it's almost my fault..I almost couldn't blame her for it even though I rightfully do. On top of that, I do love her and I cannot change the way I feel, no one can. They can control how they handle or react to the way their feeling but nobody can control who they love or how they actually feel. Sometimes it is best to let go after an event like this and sometimes a relationship can come out of it 10times stronger. I can only pray that it works out for the best and whatever happens happens. If I happen to meet somebody while I'm currently single and she happens to brighten my day then perhaps that would be different, I don't know and I couldn't say because I'm not in that situation. After talking with her and our conselor yesterday I think I've finally just found some inner peace inside about the current situation and my new motto is just to live in the moment and whatever happens happens. As much as I want this with us, there's many things about her that will require change on her part in order for things to work. I haven't really done my part as promised. If I start doing that and laying off of her and just going with the flow then if she truly loves me, she will do the same and put forth her best effort. Only time will tell and as usual I will keep you all updated. This thread has become a good outlet for me since I don't really have too many people to share this with.

[Bundahead]

Okay! Dirkz! Where are ya man? I know you told me you NEVER wanted to discuss global warming in here, and just cuz you said so...I'm gonna talk about it. But today lets throw a little religion in the mix and STIR the pot! For the past few days I've been doing some research for a website I might start. As I was researching I came across this Bible Magazine website. Really, I don't have a clue how I got there; I was google searching "executive power" , one site led to another and BOOM there it was: A very persuasive article trying to convince the readers to not buy into the global warming predictions.
I was curious if there might be more like this article on other websites and so i googled "christian magazine global warming" and there were thousands more. I noticed a trend. The Christain majority dismissed the idea of global warming. Interfaith Stewardship Alliance (ISA), a group of christrian academics and skeptics of global warming have hired their own scientists and are currently working to disprove the theory that our climate is heating up due to excess greenhouse gases in the atmosphere.

Here's my problem...we have no way of knowing today, for sure, that the predictions are correct; however, what choice do we have but to change energy sources now? When scientist / astronomers began to say, "the world is round" christrians blew it off, and the more real it came, the more they resisted, up to the day that it was cold hard fact and proven. This situation is different to me. We don't have the luxury of waiting to see it become fact.

I dunno what to think really. So, now i'm asking you all. Do we chance it and watch the weather change?

[miketh74]

Okay! Dirkz! Where are ya man? I know you told me you NEVER wanted to discuss global warming in here, and just cuz you said so...I'm gonna talk about it. But today lets throw a little religion in the mix and STIR the pot! For the past few days I've been doing some research for a website I might start. As I was researching I came across this Bible Magazine website. Really, I don't have a clue how I got there; I was google searching "executive power" , one site led to another and BOOM there it was: A very persuasive article trying to convince the readers to not buy into the global warming predictions.
I was curious if there might be more like this article on other websites and so i googled "christian magazine global warming" and there were thousands more. I noticed a trend. The Christain majority dismissed the idea of global warming. Interfaith Stewardship Alliance (ISA), a group of christrian academics and skeptics of global warming have hired their own scientists and are currently working to disprove the theory that our climate is heating up due to excess greenhouse gases in the atmosphere.

Here's my problem...we have no way of knowing today, for sure, that the predictions are correct; however, what choice do we have but to change energy sources now? When scientist / astronomers began to say, "the world is round" christrians blew it off, and the more real it came, the more they resisted, up to the day that it was cold hard fact and proven. This situation is different to me. We don't have the luxury of waiting to see it become fact.

I dunno what to think really. So, now i'm asking you all. Do we chance it and watch the weather change?

Hey Bunda, you just led me into a thought. Your last thought reminded me of Disposition......"watch the weather change". Maybe then, Reflection refers to crucifying our egos and quit assuming humans can have that much of an effect on global warming. I'm not saying we have NO effect on the atmosphere, but maybe it's not as bad as ritually portrayed in the media. The sun really does more damage to the ozone than we do. I've read the surface of the sun actually gets hotter every year and that millions of years from now, will eventually burn itself out. So how much we affect the earth is really questionable.

What do you think of the Disposition/Reflection analogy?

:P

[miketh74]

Well, for starters...we're not trying to work things out simply for our son...you're absolutely correct that is the wrong way to go about it. We're trying because we do love one another. You're right that what she did is something I'll never forget, but that also doesn't mean that she is THAT type of a person. I've come to terms with what happened at this point now months later. There's NO excuse for what she did and she is completely at fault for that but I also accept the blame that I put her in a place that made her feel the need to seek out something, we both did. Neither was getting what they needed out of the relationship and both of us were depressed and angry and bitter for many months. Even I went and visited my ex-girlfriend one night (before I had known about what she was doing) but, as I sat on the couch with my ex at her place and she tried to kiss me I suddenly got up and left and all I could think about was her (the baby's momma). Part of that pisses me off and I've expressed this to her and came clean about it recently to her was the fact that I stopped myself from allowing it to go that far and she did not. Moreso, it wasn't just a one time thing that she did it. Many people have told me "man, fuck that girl..look what she did to you, how could you even talk to her anymore?" Honestly, my logic says they're all right and I should hate her fucking guts, and a part of me does. But there's the other part of me that knows I was a really shitty boyfriend to her for so long it's almost my fault..I almost couldn't blame her for it even though I rightfully do. On top of that, I do love her and I cannot change the way I feel, no one can. They can control how they handle or react to the way their feeling but nobody can control who they love or how they actually feel. Sometimes it is best to let go after an event like this and sometimes a relationship can come out of it 10times stronger. I can only pray that it works out for the best and whatever happens happens. If I happen to meet somebody while I'm currently single and she happens to brighten my day then perhaps that would be different, I don't know and I couldn't say because I'm not in that situation. After talking with her and our conselor yesterday I think I've finally just found some inner peace inside about the current situation and my new motto is just to live in the moment and whatever happens happens. As much as I want this with us, there's many things about her that will require change on her part in order for things to work. I haven't really done my part as promised. If I start doing that and laying off of her and just going with the flow then if she truly loves me, she will do the same and put forth her best effort. Only time will tell and as usual I will keep you all updated. This thread has become a good outlet for me since I don't really have too many people to share this with.

Right on dude. Reading that tells me you're showing your son that you da man. I'd take pride in that post.

;)

[Bundahead]

Hey Bunda, you just led me into a thought. Your last thought reminded me of Disposition......"watch the weather change". Maybe then, Reflection refers to crucifying our egos and quit assuming humans can have that much of an effect on global warming. I'm not saying we have NO effect on the atmosphere, but maybe it's not as bad as ritually portrayed in the media. The sun really does more damage to the ozone than we do. I've read the surface of the sun actually gets hotter every year and that millions of years from now, will eventually burn itself out. So how much we affect the earth is really questionable.

What do you think of the Disposition/Reflection analogy?

:P

Yah, I am bit compulsive when it comes to using literary allusions (watch the weather change) I get how you can come up with that analogy.... I don't know whether or not I could place my thoughts about the subject within a few lines of a couple of songs. Especially since both of those songs are SO subjective. " I've always turned to Reflection when I'm sitting on my pitty pot or standing in the doorway of a depression. The song asks me to seek the light and find the comfort there. And as for Disposition...well...i really don't have the slightest. But I really like the song, lol! However, I do get your point...or I get your doubts. I did a little checking around on the temperature of the sun and found varying opinions among the "experts" to whether or not its getting hotter or cooling down at the moment. There arn't nearly as many varying opinions on whether or not the earth is trapping the sun's rays b/c of excess greenhouse gases produced by humans. When the world was faced with evidence that smog type pollution caused all kinds of health and environmental problems, different countries took measures and saw to the lowering of those emmisions. When the smoggy air pollution began to decrease, the reverse of adverse effects was quite measurable.
It's my personal belief that we are more intimately connected to this earth than we like to give notice to, and we fail with each new technology to use forward thinking. When weighing out the pros and cons of a new technology we fail to ask ourselves the right questions. And that's understandable. This technology stuff is new to us humans in the timetable of our existance. We must learn how to be progressive thinkers and have a process by which we can test for future dangers the newly discovered technologies might produce. I think that the earth is an exstention of our bodies, just as the flower is forever bound to the ground by its roots, we are bound to it by our need for its rescourses. And just as we can mistreat and pollute our own bodies, I believe we can have the same effect on our envirement. Instead of it being individual sabatoge on our own bodies; we work as one giant collective individual against the body of earth. Keep in mind though that this in no way means I've taken a side in the whole global warming issue. In fact, I'm standing in the middle, between the two sides, asking them both: Do we have the luxury of standing around arguing? What would it hurt us to be a Proactive Society?

[miketh74]

Yah, I am bit compulsive when it comes to using literary allusions (watch the weather change) I get how you can come up with that analogy.... I don't know whether or not I could place my thoughts about the subject within a few lines of a couple of songs. Especially since both of those songs are SO subjective. " I've always turned to Reflection when I'm sitting on my pitty pot or standing in the doorway of a depression. The song asks me to seek the light and find the comfort there. And as for Disposition...well...i really don't have the slightest. But I really like the song, lol! However, I do get your point...or I get your doubts. I did a little checking around on the temperature of the sun and found varying opinions among the "experts" to whether or not its getting hotter or cooling down at the moment. There arn't nearly as many varying opinions on whether or not the earth is trapping the sun's rays b/c of excess greenhouse gases produced by humans. When the world was faced with evidence that smog type pollution caused all kinds of health and environmental problems, different countries took measures and saw to the lowering of those emmisions. When the smoggy air pollution began to decrease, the reverse of adverse effects was quite measurable.
It's my personal belief that we are more intimately connected to this earth than we like to give notice to, and we fail with each new technology to use forward thinking. When weighing out the pros and cons of a new technology we fail to ask ourselves the right questions. And that's understandable. This technology stuff is new to us humans in the timetable of our existance. We must learn how to be progressive thinkers and have a process by which we can test for future dangers the newly discovered technologies might produce. I think that the earth is an exstention of our bodies, just as the flower is forever bound to the ground by its roots, we are bound to it by our need for its rescourses. And just as we can mistreat and pollute our own bodies, I believe we can have the same effect on our envirement. Instead of it being individual sabatoge on our own bodies; we work as one giant collective individual against the body of earth. Keep in mind though that this in no way means I've taken a side in the whole global warming issue. In fact, I'm standing in the middle, between the two sides, asking them both: Do we have the luxury of standing around arguing? What would it hurt us to be a Proactive Society?

Bunda, your words are enlightening and inspiring. I'm so glad you stand in the middle. Too many people feel they have to pick a side of the global warming issue to gain a cozy feeling that they are doing something to make it better or to establish a personal point of view. I do, however, believe that we have made significant impacts on the amount of emissions we put out. With this in mind, I'm fairly confidant that we ARE moving in the right direction. And it's not as bad as some might say. I'm with ya....I believe we could do more, but I also am not about the doom and gloom picture the media likes to paint.

;)

[Inner_Eulogy]

Hey Bunda, you just led me into a thought. Your last thought reminded me of Disposition......"watch the weather change". Maybe then, Reflection refers to crucifying our egos and quit assuming humans can have that much of an effect on global warming. I'm not saying we have NO effect on the atmosphere, but maybe it's not as bad as ritually portrayed in the media. The sun really does more damage to the ozone than we do. I've read the surface of the sun actually gets hotter every year and that millions of years from now, will eventually burn itself out. So how much we affect the earth is really questionable.

What do you think of the Disposition/Reflection analogy?

:P

Well one of the more realistic threats are the solar flares and solar storms. Our atmosphere can block out majority of the flares and usually as they are not direct hits but, eventually our time will come when a large one comes as a direct hit. We can all kiss our asses goodbye.

[Inner_Eulogy]

Finally had a few minutes to add one of my more recent poems I wrote regarding the situation you have all learned to know so well by now..constructive criticism is welcomed if needed.


I know that I tried so hard in all the wrong ways,

and believe me when I say I'm sorry for those days.

I'm sorry that you had chose to do what you did,

I'm sorry that it's taking it's toll on our beautiful kid.

I'm sorry I didn't always say what I really meant,

I'm sorry for the money that I had foolishly spent.

I'm sorry for the lies that I would always feed you,

I'm sorry that I wasn't always there when you needed me to.

It's a shame when all the blame is accepted by me,
so sad to see that you're blind to what we could be.

I know I left you lonely for so many nights,

missing me and alone and I know it wasn't right.

I'm sorry for being selfish and thinking only of myself,

I'm sorry I stopped caring and put your feelings on the shelf.

I'm sorry for not listening when you needed someone to talk to,

I'm sorry for not understanding and being there to hold onto.

I'm sorry for the temper that I would sometimes display,

I'm so sorry for losing you and I miss you everyday.

It's a shame when all the blame is accepted by me,
so sad to see that you're blind to what we could be.

[Inner_Eulogy]

What the hell, I'll add just a few more. I wrote this poem when I was 15.


"Welcome To My World"

The despair overcomes my lonely anxiety,
shadows form as the light succumbs to the darkness.
Faint thoughts whisper by my open eye unnoticed,
as the unknown becomes a familiar circumstance.
Life comes to a sudden hault as time is now irrelevant,
the past and future as one - imbedded within my limbo.
Insanity turns into a twisted like logic,
as common sense loses all meaning.
A dimension where direction leads you to nowhere,
and the premeditated destination is anywhere.
A lost soul,
welcome to my world.

[Tool_Is_Sick]

Well one of the more realistic threats are the solar flares and solar storms. Our atmosphere can block out majority of the flares and usually as they are not direct hits but, eventually our time will come when a large one comes as a direct hit. We can all kiss our asses goodbye.

I wanna watch it all down...I sure could use a vaction from this silly shit.

[Inner_Eulogy]

"Dead Inside"

Sinking into the black hole through total loss of self control - my soul flows away into the sweet darkness - here there is no bliss - just this torment and pain collecting scars in my brain - it's driving me insane - I wish there was a way out of this mess - there's no hiding the stress - unless, I could endure - the raining tears won't stop until there's more - more emotional agony - you just had to see - this tear me apart from the inside - the reality has my eyes open wide - but I still feel as if I had died.

[Inner_Eulogy]

"Dead Love"

Pale beams of the bright sun hiding within,
the silent moon prays of forgiveness for his sins.
He pauses to say "Why must it be this way?",
"Why must the loving lord taketh away I say?".
Dreams fade into an opaque mist of dillusion,
the unseen truth then reveals it's unwanted confusion.
The comfortable warmth that was - is now naked and cold,
left for dead in the shadows as a frown unfolds.
The never-ending grief and anger quickly take effect,
the stinging burn and intolerable pain are now permanently set.
Suicidal thoughts run madly through my mind,
and the bitter tears of my sorrow must fall behind.
The river of emotion comes to a complete stop,
as dignity and morals are quietly dropped.
I welcome death in shame as my muscles tense,
then I close my eyes....and I kiss the blackness.

[Inner_Eulogy]

If you guys like these, I am always open to sharing more. They aren't ALL gloomy but I've always had a better knack for those. I've practically got a whole book full of songs and poems I wrote.

[Tool_Is_Sick]

YO man...Those two poems were awesome. I would definately like to read more of your work. Once again, Awesome job my friend. I wish I could have the ability to write such powerful stanzas. Thanks. Cheers.

[Bundahead]

He lept upon each lily pad
which were stuck inside a pond
The nothingness was chasing a frog
Into the depths beyond.

The day crept by and the frog lept on
aimlessly, to you and me
But in his small mind he was hoping to find
The next lily pad would set him free.

Leaping onto the next lily pad
Which sat closer to the shore
He was certain then, he'd exhausted them all
though, He continued searching, as if there were more.

I watched from a far and tried to help out,
"there's no more lilies, try another pond, its clear!"
But the Nothingness was chasing him
andhis each new movement found only through fear.

Then the day turned to dusk and the frog was still leaping
But his movements were weakened from leaping so long.
He was weary then, He just felt like sleeping
Gazing into the dark water, he croaked one last song.

Now I can't tell you the actual words to his song
But I can relay to this day of how they made me ache.
for He had no more in him, He met the nothingness and dove in
as i sat still on the bankside and cried as he sank.

[Inner_Eulogy]

I don't mean this offensively, but did you just write a poem about a suicical frog? lol

[Bundahead]

I don't mean this offensively, but did you just write a poem about a suicical frog? lol

hm...well....No, I didn't JUST write it....and, I guess its about whatever you think it is.

[Bundahead]

Have u ever got stuck in life and no matter how hard you looked for the next opportunity each one turns up with nothing? How about limited perception? Where you think you're out of options but your really not; you're just stuck inside a little box and can't see the other opportunities all around you? Have you ever met someone growing tired of running circles in their lives? I know I have. However, no matter how long I stayed there next to them trying to show them there's another way, they couldn't see it b/c they were trapped inside their own line of thinking. All that there was for me to do was watch as they sank further and further. I wished I could have helped, but they wouldn't let me and even though I was right there beside them, there was nothing i could do but watch them grow tired and ultimately drown.

[miketh74]

What the hell, I'll add just a few more. I wrote this poem when I was 15.


"Welcome To My World"

The despair overcomes my lonely anxiety,
shadows form as the light succumbs to the darkness.
Faint thoughts whisper by my open eye unnoticed,
as the unknown becomes a familiar circumstance.
Life comes to a sudden hault as time is now irrelevant,
the past and future as one - imbedded within my limbo.
Insanity turns into a twisted like logic,
as common sense loses all meaning.
A dimension where direction leads you to nowhere,
and the premeditated destination is anywhere.
A lost soul,
welcome to my world.

I like this one man. I could see a song in this one for some reason.

[Inner_Eulogy]

I like this one man. I could see a song in this one for some reason.

I tried to use a lot of dualism in that one to reflect the confusion or feeling of unknowing. There's a lot of opposites within it imposed onto one another.

[Bundahead]

This sucks. Really.
I know i hav'nt said anything about keeping with topic b/c there was plenty of room to expand of the subject...but i think i've had about enough of this. How did it go from halfway intelligent debates to "Identifying with Inner Eulogy" ? I guess I should've said something a while back when i first started noticing it, but, i guess i'm too passive-agressive to be that honest. I copied and pasted that poem into here to let you see how bad it sucks to have to read all that. Now just imagine that I did it every other day, two at a time. It only took one time of Inner having read someone else's stuff for him to undermine it. And I swear to god man, Mike has gotta be a psuedo name Inner's using b/c, for the life of me, I can't figure out why he'd kisss Inner's ass so much.
ANYwho, You guys take care.

[Inner_Eulogy]

This sucks. Really.
I know i hav'nt said anything about keeping with topic b/c there was plenty of room to expand of the subject...but i think i've had about enough of this. How did it go from halfway intelligent debates to "Identifying with Inner Eulogy" ? I guess I should've said something a while back when i first started noticing it, but, i guess i'm too passive-agressive to be that honest. I copied and pasted that poem into here to let you see how bad it sucks to have to read all that. Now just imagine that I did it every other day, two at a time. It only took one time of Inner having read someone else's stuff for him to undermine it. And I swear to god man, Mike has gotta be a psuedo name Inner's using b/c, for the life of me, I can't figure out why he'd kisss Inner's ass so much.
ANYwho, You guys take care.

Wow, either you're having a bad fucking day or you're a bigger ass than you portray. For one, it fell off topic because nobody was fucking posting anything here for almost a week until I started again. I have no clue who Mike is outside of here, and who's to say he's kissing my ass. Not too mention the fact that you didn't seem to have a fucking problem with me sharing my experience before. I never meant to make this thread into "all about me" but nobody else was really saying much of anything and besides, who the fuck cares. If you have an issue with me typing out a few of my poems then how about politely asking me not to. I posted asking if anybody cared days before....regardless, fuck you if you have a problem with it. Go make a "Bunda's Vagina Hurts" thread and talk about whatever you want. And how did I undermine anything in here? I've been respectful of every person on this thread. Ya' know, I give it to ya' for being good at your facade. At least I don't fucking hide who or what I am....and you can kiss my ass

[wearethestories]

I know that I tried so hard in all the wrong ways,

and believe me when I say I'm sorry for those days.

I'm sorry that you had chose to do what you did,

I'm sorry that it's taking it's toll on our beautiful kid.

I'm sorry I didn't always say what I really meant,

I'm sorry for the money that I had foolishly spent.

I'm sorry for the lies that I would always feed you,

I'm sorry that I wasn't always there when you needed me to.

It's a shame when all the blame is accepted by me,
so sad to see that you're blind to what we could be.

I know I left you lonely for so many nights,

missing me and alone and I know it wasn't right.

I'm sorry for being selfish and thinking only of myself,

I'm sorry I stopped caring and put your feelings on the shelf.

I'm sorry for not listening when you needed someone to talk to,

I'm sorry for not understanding and being there to hold onto.

I'm sorry for the temper that I would sometimes display,

I'm so sorry for losing you and I miss you everyday.

It's a shame when all the blame is accepted by me,
so sad to see that you're blind to what we could be.

This is beautiful, Inner_

I relate and hear the pain in every word. I think you could possibly tweak some things here and there so that it flows a little better, but other than that, it really is a work of the heart. Thank you.

[wearethestories]

At least I don't fucking hide who or what I am....and you can kiss my ass
Gotta give him that.

[wearethestories]

Oh, and Bunda... your froggy-poem ain't so hot either. I'm not a fan of Inner_'s "dualism" poem, but to just thrash it for no reason when yours aren't any better isn't quite the way to go about criticism.

But, so that I'm not the only one critiquing without putting something up, here's something I penned about four years ago:

[Entropy, E---, entropy!]

"Where in this world
Of chaos and despite
Can thou garner order
From the night
so young,
Yet assuméd old
– one so
Far and desperate cold?

"Can thou seest why
Men search and quest
So hard, to find
The answer time
won't give
In this life of seeming dis-
Ordered passions and
Nature's woe?

"What answer, why
Is the search in vain
To find the answers
That so plague
and
Rot the minds of
Those that yearn to
Know the Truth
And not 'the Game'?"

"An answer, sir,
If I may, to brighten
Seasons of the day:
In faith, there are questions more
Than any answeréd before.
But if thou doth seek, perhaps,
To know and understand
The inner workings of the Man,
Then thou might'st see that
Man is met and matched to more
Than is his fill.
And certainly
A God, you see,
Must rest and perch
Atop this globe - for otherwise,
What use is Man, if he cannot
But understand, these queries of
The greatest minds?"

"What use is Man, if he cannot
But understand---

"What use, O God, is Man?"

[wearethestories]

And if you want another one, here's one that I wrote based off of an APC lyric"

"It's time to feed the monster; I don't need another friend…"

So oft am I broken and bent upon the floor
I know the way is open, but fear has closed the door
I pray that I would grasp, but prayer is not the chore

I am growing hungry – and eating my own pride

(It leaves me unfulfilled and wishing I had none)
The only thing I need to do, I have not already done
I need the freedom I am offered, but I'd prefer to drink and run

I flee to life's temptations – I am not the man I am

[Encouragement is not an option]

Losing control is the only choice left…
And I'm scared shitless

[Tool_Is_Sick]

This sucks. Really.
I know i hav'nt said anything about keeping with topic b/c there was plenty of room to expand of the subject...but i think i've had about enough of this. How did it go from halfway intelligent debates to "Identifying with Inner Eulogy" ? I guess I should've said something a while back when i first started noticing it, but, i guess i'm too passive-agressive to be that honest. I copied and pasted that poem into here to let you see how bad it sucks to have to read all that. Now just imagine that I did it every other day, two at a time. It only took one time of Inner having read someone else's stuff for him to undermine it. And I swear to god man, Mike has gotta be a psuedo name Inner's using b/c, for the life of me, I can't figure out why he'd kisss Inner's ass so much.
ANYwho, You guys take care.

Haha Your Vagina hurts. But on a serious note - You really should lighten up dude. You kinda just like said "Fuck You" to Inner Eulogy and Ive read many of your conversations with him and you seemed to be "Friends?" And you just blow up on him because he is adding to the thread with some poems and what not. what the fuck dude. You got issues.

[miketh74]

This sucks. Really.
I know i hav'nt said anything about keeping with topic b/c there was plenty of room to expand of the subject...but i think i've had about enough of this. How did it go from halfway intelligent debates to "Identifying with Inner Eulogy" ? I guess I should've said something a while back when i first started noticing it, but, i guess i'm too passive-agressive to be that honest. I copied and pasted that poem into here to let you see how bad it sucks to have to read all that. Now just imagine that I did it every other day, two at a time. It only took one time of Inner having read someone else's stuff for him to undermine it. And I swear to god man, Mike has gotta be a psuedo name Inner's using b/c, for the life of me, I can't figure out why he'd kisss Inner's ass so much.
ANYwho, You guys take care.

Whoa Bunda....nobody's kissing nobody's ass in here. I was simply doing what you said. I was identifying with I_E cuz I have been in his situation. If that constitutes kissing ass, then I might as well not post anything in here anymore. I seriously dig everyone in here because I CAN have an intelligent conversation with all of you. I started one with you on the global warming issue, so I have no idea what the fuck you're talking about. I seriously hope you were just having a bad day. That would suck if you left this thread like that.

I also dig ya all cuz you're all Tool fans.

:)

[miketh74]

Dam....in fact Bunda, I even encouraged your writing. I try identifying with anyone I have similar interests with. Isn't that a cornerstone of being social???

WTF is up with that????????

[Tool_Is_Sick]

Yeah Im with mike on this one also...I hope you had a bad day man...There is no reason at all for us to aruging over something so stupid. We are all one in these forums lets just get along. Seriously. Have a Good Day to all my fellow Tool fans in here. CHEERS!

[Inner_Eulogy]

Oh, and Bunda... your froggy-poem ain't so hot either. I'm not a fan of Inner_'s "dualism" poem, but to just thrash it for no reason when yours aren't any better isn't quite the way to go about criticism.

But, so that I'm not the only one critiquing without putting something up, here's something I penned about four years ago:

[Entropy, E---, entropy!]

"Where in this world
Of chaos and despite
Can thou garner order
From the night
so young,
Yet assuméd old
– one so
Far and desperate cold?

"Can thou seest why
Men search and quest
So hard, to find
The answer time
won't give
In this life of seeming dis-
Ordered passions and
Nature's woe?

"What answer, why
Is the search in vain
To find the answers
That so plague
and
Rot the minds of
Those that yearn to
Know the Truth
And not 'the Game'?"

"An answer, sir,
If I may, to brighten
Seasons of the day:
In faith, there are questions more
Than any answeréd before.
But if thou doth seek, perhaps,
To know and understand
The inner workings of the Man,
Then thou might'st see that
Man is met and matched to more
Than is his fill.
And certainly
A God, you see,
Must rest and perch
Atop this globe - for otherwise,
What use is Man, if he cannot
But understand, these queries of
The greatest minds?"

"What use is Man, if he cannot
But understand---

"What use, O God, is Man?"

How Shakespearian of you... =-) Granted your writing style varies far from my own, I like it.

[Inner_Eulogy]

I'd like to add one more:

Hickory dickory dock,
it seems that Bunda likes the cock.
In his mouth or up his ass,
if only the taste would forever last.
"Oh the joy in which it brings",
in the shower this he sings.
Hairy balls is what it's about,
he loves that salty taste in his mouth.
He'll toss some salad just for fun,
he'll toss some salad in the sun.
Or maybe at night right before bed,
goddamn that boy loves givin' some head.

From: ME TO: Ball Licker

[miketh74]

I'd like to add one more:

Hickory dickory dock,
it seems that Bunda likes the cock.
In his mouth or up his ass,
if only the taste would forever last.
"Oh the joy in which it brings",
in the shower this he sings.
Hairy balls is what it's about,
he loves that salty taste in his mouth.
He'll toss some salad just for fun,
he'll toss some salad in the sun.
Or maybe at night right before bed,
goddamn that boy loves givin' some head.

From: ME TO: Ball Licker

LOOL.....

Dam Inner.....you're ruthless dude. You know Bunda is a chick right?

Still fuckin hilarious though. I'm still rollin'.

:D

[wearethestories]

I'd like to add one more:

Hickory dickory dock,
it seems that Bunda likes the cock.
In his mouth or up his ass,
if only the taste would forever last.
"Oh the joy in which it brings",
in the shower this he sings.
Hairy balls is what it's about,
he loves that salty taste in his mouth.
He'll toss some salad just for fun,
he'll toss some salad in the sun.
Or maybe at night right before bed,
goddamn that boy loves givin' some head.

From: ME TO: Ball Licker

yikes!

note to self: don't get on Inner_'s bad side.



HAHAHAHAHAHHA