Pure as we begin

[Gov]

Listening to this song more and more, I really like it.

And it reminds me of the philosophy that we are born perfect and events/choices/society after that shape who we are.

I think Adams guitar solo is also simple but really bad ass.

[]v[edusa]

Listening to this song more and more, I really like it.

And it reminds me of the philosophy that we are born perfect and events/choices/society after that shape who we are.

I think Adams guitar solo is also simple but really bad ass.

I agree, but I wouldnt say that society shaped who we are. Society shaped us the way society wants us to be. A person makes themselves become who they truly are, not society. The pure self is that inner (divine) child.

[Gov]

I like that better

[bobbobbob]

I don't think it is society as much as it is the the duality within nature.

We have the ultimate choice around which we want to create.

Fire and Stone can be used by the individual for both "good" and "bad" purposes...

And it is only up to the individual to decide which of these uses he/she will use.

"Ruled by will alone"

[mkean]

I knew this had something to do with evolution. At first the industrial sounds in the beginning made me refrain from listening, but It's a really cool song.

[Ghostwriter]

And it reminds me of the philosophy that we are born perfect and events/choices/society after that shape who we are.

.

Agreed. We have discussion like this in school where we decide whether people can be born evil or are just shaped by the world around them.

[MORNING_GLORY]

I believe everything on this planet is a result of events that happened long ago, and it formed us to how we are today. If everything originiated from one point of singularity(big bang theory) then all energy at one time was one unified thing. Therefore, we are all connected in a way, and things couldn't have happened any other way.

[toolrox19]

hey i was just gonna post something like this, but yea my thought is we are born perfect then spark=bad thing we do, which becomes a flame to lead the way, like lies it jusst grows

[nighthawk]

Great song indeed... one of few songs that I haven't got tired of hear yet.

[Luosdasa]

my favorite on the album :)
about sex. we begin pure... we're pure as we go in, then we aint so pure...
but if we fuck enough, we can all become one, pure as light.
always been tools msg. fuck till ya close to god

[parables in the world]

This song i believe is showing Us two sides of life....One is using the stones at the beginning of time, to use it for building houses, etc. The other is using it for evil or bad.
Its about your True Intention. But he uses the word Intension instead of Intention to describe both Intention and a world-wide Intension...

[Nikeda-Taylor]

Yeah, i agree with that philosophy.

[Schema]

my favorite on the album :)
about sex. we begin pure... we're pure as we go in, then we aint so pure...
but if we fuck enough, we can all become one, pure as light.
always been tools msg. fuck till ya close to god

Best interpretation ever.

My opinion, though?

Pure as we begin - Man before war is one without sin.
Here we have a stone - the first weapon
Shelter turned to home - it could have been a home...
Throw to slay the stranger, swore to crush his bones - ...or a weapon
Spark become a flame - to fire the furnace, to forge a blade to slay the stranger. Alternatively, "waiting to turn on the showers and fire the ovens" - though that's Pink Floyd, not Tool.
Move by will alone - We march to war only because we want to. War is unnecessary.
Pure as light, return to one - Unity as a species is the only escape.

[Rolo]

my favorite on the album :)
about sex. we begin pure... we're pure as we go in, then we aint so pure...
but if we fuck enough, we can all become one, pure as light.
always been tools msg. fuck till ya close to god

Is THAT why they scream "oh god!" all the time......lol

[ufopancakes]

You guys are wayy off. Its about Sacrificing Babies then cooking babies. Babies are pure and contain the most energy. If you will it, fuggit.

[Inner_Eulogy]

You guys are wayy off. Its about Sacrificing Babies then cooking babies. Babies are pure and contain the most energy. If you will it, fuggit.

Huh, and this coming from the ever-enlightening Noose?

[Schema]

Huh, and this coming from the ever-enlightening Noose?

lulz.

I thought his post was pretty fail. I've seen that shit before.

I think that Intension and Right in Two are rather closely linked. Gonna post about it soon.

[Inner_Eulogy]

lulz.

I thought his post was pretty fail. I've seen that shit before.

I think that Intension and Right in Two are rather closely linked. Gonna post about it soon.

His post was pretty fail? Dude, that doesn't even make sense.

[Schema]

His post was pretty fail? Dude, that doesn't even make sense.

It's internet grammar, of course it doesn't. Sorry, this is what I get for not posting for a while - I turn into a dipshit.

[Inner_Eulogy]

It's internet grammar, of course it doesn't. Sorry, this is what I get for not posting for a while - I turn into a dipshit.

Perhaps it was pretty fowl? <shrug>

[Schema]

Perhaps it was pretty fowl? <shrug>

Well, who the hell knows, right? The post was just ridiculous, on the whole.

[Inner_Eulogy]

Well, who the hell knows, right? The post was just ridiculous, on the whole.

right on

[gjamison27]

The past and future do not truly exist, only memories and expectations.

All we have is right now...I mean now...no...now...

[gjamison27]

Good point.

It would be more accurate to say then, "Past and future are merely memories and expectations."

[Inner_Eulogy]

Good point.

It would be more accurate to say then, "Past and future are merely memories and expectations."

"The past and futured intertwined within an infinite limbo, common sense has lost all meaning while the premediatated destination leads you to nowhere. Distant memories fade into a transparent dillusion as expectations lie shattered on the floor."

[gjamison27]

So more accurate to simply say that "The past and future are intangible."

[Thunderbutt]

I believe everything on this planet is a result of events that happened long ago, and it formed us to how we are today. If everything originiated from one point of singularity(big bang theory) then all energy at one time was one unified thing. Therefore, we are all connected in a way, and things couldn't have happened any other way.

Absolutely right MORNING_GLORY. Matter is just a form of energy at a lower state. People, rocks, space itself all came from the source of energy as was stated above. Everything happened the way it did because it had to (the proof being that the past actually happened), so if you think of the future as the past that has yet to come, then you can draw the conclusion that whatever has yet to happen also has to happen...We are one and we are only along for the ride...enjoy.

[This One]

I played witht he idea of causality for a while. The idea that everythign has a cause and an effect. Under such a paradigm there is no such thing as choice. An intersting thing happens when you accept this rationality; it sets you free. If everything is cause and effect, then there is no choice. You can do whatever you please because you have no choice. That would seem to invalidate the theory. If you know that everythign is pre-determind, then you can do something different. But, what if you knowing that everything was pre-determined was pre-determined? Then would doing something different be pre-determined?

Think about that for a while and try not to go crazy.

[Inner_Eulogy]

I played witht he idea of causality for a while. The idea that everythign has a cause and an effect. Under such a paradigm there is no such thing as choice. An intersting thing happens when you accept this rationality; it sets you free. If everything is cause and effect, then there is no choice. You can do whatever you please because you have no choice. That would seem to invalidate the theory. If you know that everythign is pre-determind, then you can do something different. But, what if you knowing that everything was pre-determined was pre-determined? Then would doing something different be pre-determined?

Think about that for a while and try not to go crazy.

That doesn't even make reasonable sense. Everybody has a choice, it's called free will, nothing is always pre-determined even if everything has a cause and effect.

If I were you, I'd be pre-determined to re-think this idea.

[This One]

I'm not saying you don't have a choice, what I'm saying is what you'll choose might be pre-determined.

When you make a choice, you leverage two or more possibilities and thier most likely outcomes.

When you "choose" something, are you really choosing? Or, are you just reacting to your enviroment in the way you've been trained to do? Or the way your instincts tell you?

Maybe something in between?

Is it free will because we don't know why we're doing it?

I might just be crazy.

[Inner_Eulogy]

I'm not saying you don't have a choice, what I'm saying is what you'll choose might be pre-determined.

When you make a choice, you leverage two or more possibilities and thier most likely outcomes.

When you "choose" something, are you really choosing? Or, are you just reacting to your enviroment in the way you've been trained to do? Or the way your instincts tell you?

Maybe something in between?

Is it free will because we don't know why we're doing it?

I might just be crazy.

Perhaps......I think you're just waaayyyy overthinking the entire thing.

[This One]

Over-thinking is better than just accepting what's you've been told.

Logical arguments have there limits. I think this is such a case.

We have no way of knowing what's going on.

We can make predictions, estimated guesses, but we can never really know anything.

The only thing we can truely know who/what we are, but even that takes a bit of work.

The opening Leary sample from Third Eye(Live) comes to mind.

[ufopancakes]

Without knowledge of ignorance, your knowledge is ignorance.

The greatest minds who have ever graced our planet acknowledged how little they knew, and the room for seemingly infinite possibility. Our discoveries in Quantum Physics completely turned the world of science upside down, and many scientists were too ego-stricken to celebrate the human race achieving a new understanding of the world around them... as absurd as it was.

An example (Tim Leary idea), if I were to tell you a thousand years ago, that there were microscopic organisms that are alive, just as real as we are, invisible to the naked eye, all around us... you would probably think I was insane. You would have died with the understanding that your perception was truth... when ultimately, its more deception than truth.

Just because we lack the technology and understanding to fully prove or disprove an idea, does not discredit nor validate the idea. However absurd as they may seem, or how much one disagrees... ideas should never be met with blunt, condemning opposition... or we would never evolve.

Just saying... speaking opinion in a factual manner is not conducive in a philosophical discussion.

[Inner_Eulogy]

Without knowledge of ignorance, your knowledge is ignorance.

The greatest minds who have ever graced our planet acknowledged how little they knew, and the room for seemingly infinite possibility. Our discoveries in Quantum Physics completely turned the world of science upside down, and many scientists were too ego-stricken to celebrate the human race achieving a new understanding of the world around them... as absurd as it was.

An example (Tim Leary idea), if I were to tell you a thousand years ago, that there were microscopic organisms that are alive, just as real as we are, invisible to the naked eye, all around us... you would probably think I was insane. You would have died with the understanding that your perception was truth... when ultimately, its more deception than truth.

Just because we lack the technology and understanding to fully prove or disprove an idea, does not discredit nor validate the idea. However absurd as they may seem, or how much one disagrees... ideas should never be met with blunt, condemning opposition... or we would never evolve.

Just saying... speaking opinion in a factual manner is not conducive in a philosophical discussion.

The laws of science are changing and evolving every year with new discoveries.

Although I'm pretty upset that they took Pluto off the list of planets in our solar system, they shoulda' just left that one alone in my opinion.

[Godcell11]

I think this song has the idea of growth to it, spiritual growth, as we are a fallen spiritual being, but this is only so we have the free will to find our way back to our Root. Early in our development, we move by the will of division, ego, fear, and this is all natural, this is part of how we develop the spark, that becomes of flame and "pure as light" we "return to one." We recognize evil as a problem of our own perception, and we realize the only way to escape it is up. The war and violence, hatred, greed and suffering we see plaguing our world today is because our perception is distorted, and we are in pain and we don't know why. Nevertheless, everything that has happened up to this point played out as a battle between two opposing forces in nature, and this is evolution. We didn't know better, but now we potentially do because we grow through wisdom in this school of life. Otherwise, we would just be puppets in Spirituality. We had to fall, so there could be a point to existence, I guess is the best way to put it. Our world is being guided and governed by the Creator, but it is still separate in all aspects--complete concealment, and a phantasm. But a spark awakens within us, and we start realizing this--that we are living in a facade reality. And this is kind of the Jungian new-gnostic awakening of the Son within the stable which is you, by my interpretation of Jung and Christianity. In Kabbalah, this is the "point in the heart" or soul and it lives many lives until it is developed into a being of a Higher Dimension, a new I. The ego, or little i, however, is of this world and will never go to some place called "heaven." Can one experience hell here? Certainly. I think this is an important point in the sense of the meaning of the cross. The ego can lift up the Son, being the creature through which the Creator is revealed, but the ego and physical body and society that defines it are of this world alone, with a Root in the Thought of Creation, which is the Word and the Son

Let me correct myself: the ego isn't strong enough to lift up the Son on its own; it needs the society that defines it as well, plus the other people who have the point in their heart, or the desire for Spirituality, which grows through seeking and working. I think "Reflection" has some emphasis on retreating from an all-for-myself emphasis on Spirituality and accepting the community, or the team. I don't think Tool rejects the idea of a team when they shatter the legitimacy of religious fundamentalism while reminding you that evil is still real. One can become isolated, bitter and lonely if they retreat solely into themselves and Jung warned that the Devil or the matter of this world which the ego is might trick them into laughable self-exaltation; I think one can learn a valuable message from "Rosetta Stoned." One can have a powerful DMT experience of Cosmic Consciousness or jinn or demons, or anything the mind may manifest at that time--getting abducted by aliens who tell you you're a prophet. Not that I'm against DMT; I've had some glowing experiences, and the Spirit sustains all, but do I think I deserve Buddhahood? No

[silverysights]

Best interpretation ever.

My opinion, though?

Pure as we begin - Man before war is one without sin.
Here we have a stone - the first weapon
Shelter turned to home - it could have been a home...
Throw to slay the stranger, swore to crush his bones - ...or a weapon
Spark become a flame - to fire the furnace, to forge a blade to slay the stranger. Alternatively, "waiting to turn on the showers and fire the ovens" - though that's Pink Floyd, not Tool.
Move by will alone - We march to war only because we want to. War is unnecessary.
Pure as light, return to one - Unity as a species is the only escape.

i find your interpretation interesting. i think i'm on a similar-ish page.

[silverysights]

this song came up while i was in a somewhat negative mindset. it has always been a contemplation-inducing track to listen to. The jangling-chain sounds as sad and mellow, and when the guitar comes in it makes everything lucid. hard not to be anticipative of Right in Two, since the guitar draws the ear that's listened to it too much towards it.

the whispers, which i had known only as nonsense until today, evoke that unusual hidden-ness, disembodied and unique.

the bass starts pulling you back and forth as the words come in. The whole rhythm of it moves in an organic way; bending, breathing, muscle movement; the experience of swimming in cold water comes to mind.

"Pure as we begin..." ...a purity that is retained but tarnished as its dragged along with you down your path.

"Here we have a stone..." ..to use. By which means you use to destroy this purity. And by choice, even; though you are not aware, you *are* aware. It is through action that any change is made, and when we actually choose to harm ourselves, or this 'Truth', it is....sad.