Martyr Archetype and Crucifixion

[]v[edusa]

Martyr Archetype- This seems to be an archytype that a lot of us have. To be a Martyr is someone who suffers for something or for someone. The fool Martyr in this song is a symbol of a characteristic of the shadow. It's a kind of behavior that is trying to control one's enviroment. The Martyr only puts time into giving energy then receiving it. They think they have to suffer and it shows that they have self-pity. Their desire for self-sacrifice may stem from a poor self-image, a lack of control, or a profoundly developed sense of love. This person usually calls for attention of his/her suffering. They lack in understanding their own heart/self. It seems to help out the false ego a lot. Its creating a wall between the conscious mind and the shadow.

Crucifixion of the Ego: Christ is known to be the symbol of the self, but if you really look at it Christ doesnt have a shadow so hes only half of the self. The other half would be the "antichrist" which consists of the dark aspects of the full self.

"Both are Christian symbols, and they have the same meaning as the image of the Saviour crucified between two thieves. This great symbol tells us that the progressive development and differentiation of consciousness leads to an ever more menacing awareness of the conflict and involves nothing less than a crucifixion of the ego, its agonizing suspension between irreconcilable opposites."
-Carl Jung (Aion v2)

Where there is evil there must be good contrary to the evil. The one follows from the other; hence we must either do away with both, and deny that good and evil exist, or if we admit the one, and particularly the evil, we must also admit the good.

Crucify the false ego and resurrect as the true ego/true self. We are transformed by the death of our own suffering. Quit denying and resisting your shadow.

"The sooner that people get to the point where they realize that the ugly stuff is just as important as the beautiful stuff it goes hand in hand and I think that we can get on with evolving"- Maynard James Keenan

[Mehhico]

Excellent Post!! Finally some internal exploration as opposed to projecting this song onto others (Hicks, Cobain, etc.). This whole album is about personal exploration, following on from the muddy waters of Undertow. Obviously my opinion, although it can also be viewed as a collective, as well as a personal exploration and cleansing.

But, yeah, I like what you had to say. I didnt even know there was a martyr archetype!!

Take care,
Andy

[]v[edusa]

Well, atleast someone else sees it. Thanks.

A lot of the information that I find on Tool is by "accident" or coincidence. I seem to find stuff like the "martyr archetype" when I least expect finding anything.

I totally agree with you about how you see this album as a whole. I also see it as being connected with finding the inner child because its filled with jokes and it seems like they had a lot of fun putting this album together (as well as other things). I don't know how others can not see that the whole album is based on these things, but still think that a song like this one is revolving around a certain person. It just doesnt really go with the theme so well.

You can even connect Hooker with a Penis to the prostitute arcetype (altough I haven't looked too far into that one).

You can connect jimmy with the Divine Child... the saboteur archetype with H.

The list goes on.

[astraka]

Nice post thks for that...
Didn't read 'Aion' yet, but will have to.

Its good to see that someone else got that Jung+Tool interest. An interesting thing is that when I started to study Jung's works, my best friend introduced me to tool. And it all came together naturally...

[thezeusanator]

I have never really thought of this song archetypally. I don't dissagree with you, but I feel that it is speaking out at people feel they are Christ-like and such good people that they can just go around picking out every little thing that is wrong with others and the world. If so then they should either be cruxified( their ego) like you pointed out (and it really helps with my interpratation) or come down off their fucking cross (ego trip) and then I run into trouble on the next line with my type of thinking. Why then does he say , so we can nail the next fool Martyr? Am I wrong, or just missing something? Help me out here.

I always thought that Hooker, was saying at one level that Most "Rockers" that sell out are just prostituting themselves around, hence they are a hooker w/ a penis. I also thought about it interms of an archetype, but as the Anima displaying shadow contents, since it comes after 46/2. Skipping forward a bit, aenima is then about flushing all those superficalities away that are the shadow of our potential evolution, and then third eye is giving you a possible but ultimatly violent way of evolving. THis is all very vauge and general, so give me your thoughts on this, and I'll be doing some more thinking. It's late and I have some sleeping to do so thanks for the thread.
-thezeusanator

[]v[edusa]

I have never really thought of this song archetypally. I don't dissagree with you, but I feel that it is speaking out at people feel they are Christ-like and such good people that they can just go around picking out every little thing that is wrong with others and the world. If so then they should either be cruxified( their ego) like you pointed out (and it really helps with my interpratation) or come down off their fucking cross (ego trip) and then I run into trouble on the next line with my type of thinking. Why then does he say , so we can nail the next fool Martyr? Am I wrong, or just missing something? Help me out here.

Yes, thats exactly what I'm talking about. You said that they go around picking out every little thing that is wrong with others in the world, but yes this is exactly what someone with this martyr archetype would do; the person would try to control his enviroment. The martyr must go on his cross to crucify the ego and then the next fool martyrs should get their turn to crucify their ego also?


I always thought that Hooker, was saying at one level that Most "Rockers" that sell out are just prostituting themselves around, hence they are a hooker w/ a penis. I also thought about it interms of an archetype, but as the Anima displaying shadow contents, since it comes after 46/2. Skipping forward a bit, aenima is then about flushing all those superficalities away that are the shadow of our potential evolution, and then third eye is giving you a possible but ultimatly violent way of evolving. THis is all very vauge and general, so give me your thoughts on this, and I'll be doing some more thinking. It's late and I have some sleeping to do so thanks for the thread.
-thezeusanator

Yes, thats exactly it. These are things that we must be aware of, fight, and get over in the shadow. We must become more conscious of this shadow side to ourselves. Here is a good explantion of the Prostitute archetype:

"The Prostitute archetype deals with our willingness to sell and negotiate away our spirit, virtue and integrity to satisfy survival needs, typically for financial or some other form of tangible or security gain. Any time we sell ourselves short or relinquish something important to us for a quick gain, or for increased security of some form, we are working from the shadow side. And it is not always ‘bad’ to be on the shadow side. For example, I have knowingly entered into deals to gain financial reward/security where I knew I could lose in other ways (no, nothing illegal, which would be a stronger example!), which is the Prostitute at work. At the same time I have also learned that I must work with people who do operate without integrity. If I am open to and aware of the role and motivation of the Prostitute, I am better able to respond to and protect myself from the shadow behaviours of other people’s Prostitute. In the business environment I have seen people lie, deliberately establish false expectations, undermine the reputations of others and spread falsehoods, all to get ahead, gain some advantage or otherwise ‘win’ over others. The shadow Prostitute is playing here. I have also seen acts of courage where people have taken a stand against strong pressure from others to be unethical or undermine others, have refused to respond unprofessionally to scurrilous attacks by others, or have resigned to avoid breeching their own values. These are acts from the power side of the Prostitute, where personal integrity is more important than security and gain. The Prostitute governs integrity.

[thezeusanator]

I still don't get why "So we can nail the next fool martyr" so they can have their chance also, sounds like a group batismal ceremony, it's odd in that light.

If so, that is a strange image. It is as if Maynard is playing reverend in this song, and that would be a bit ironic. The passage, "would you die for me?...Don't you fucking lie, make me think of priest/reverends in particular

[Bundahead]

I've enjoyed reading all the different interpretations of this song. The information and insights have caused me to think a little deeper into a song that I might have analysed too shallowly. Although, I'm not sure its all as complicated as some have made it out to be. I'm sure that Maynard does use plenty of symbolisms in his writing, but not to such an extent. So, please forgive me if my take on the lyrics seems a bit elementry.
That being said, I think that this song simply speaks of those who give too much of themselves to a particular belief, in a sense, killing off that part of themselves that thinks freely. This is what i think he's referring to when he says "we need the space to nail the next fool martyr" Maybe the word fool speaks of the ignorance of those giving up there lives (literally or figuritively) for a narrow point of view, which is layed out for them by a passionate leader who puts himself on a pedestal, from he rants at the crowd - pointing is finger, wagging his finger, at all those who don't listen. The lyrics "Standing above the crowd, he had a voice that was strong and loud. And I swallowed his facade cuz i'm so eager to identify with someone above the groud. Someone who seemed to feel the same. Someone prepared to lead the way, and someone who would die for me" Causes me to think of the people sitting in the congragation of a southern baptist church listening to a preacher ranting from the pulpit, pointing into the crowd for dramatic effect and taking a stand on every little thing and furthering those ideals by directing the followers to adopt them as if they were fact. "Repent!" or something bad will happen to you. "God is watching, so think as i have directed you to, and then God will approve. Meticulously Pre-programed by words prevously spoken to them, He verbalizes the congragation's thoughts elequently and feeds into there fears so that they become followers, exalting him, even though he is only a man.
And, for some reason, I also think of Maynard's mother and her apparent devotion to the church. Maybe, he saw the way she was wary of "stepping out of line" and that the "lines" were drawn by the person standing above the crowd. Maynard might of found that irritating, feeling that his own mother was being mislead by a mere human being claiming to be more enlightened than the rest of us although he is afflicted by all the same falacies. The blind leading the blind instead of them opening their eyes and each following their own true individual paths. This isn't only evident in the christain church, but in other religious organizations across the globe. And, all the forces oppose one another, bringing down the rest of humanity in the wake of their destruction.
I am going to admit this though, I find myself guilty of exhaulting those who verbalize my frustrations with the world. As i somewhat did with MJK. Imagine how silly I felt when I came to my own understanding of this song. He very well could have been speaking to people like me.

[]v[edusa]

The person that Maynard is talking to in the song thinks he is some pure being that is consisting of the true self when in reality hes just an ego maniac. He says that he's not afraid to die, when he actually is. In other words this martyr is afraid of change or ego death because he already strongly feels that he is perfect. He demands attention from people so he must stand above the crowd. The negative aspect (of the martyr role) sacrifices as a means of manipulation and control.

I don't know for sure, but I strongly feel that Jesus dying on the cross is just a symbol of the crucifixion of the ego. In other words to crucify the ego means that your awareness has increased because you have found that you are more then your ego self. So if this is true then how could one die for all of us? The crucifixion of Jesus could just be something that we all should follow. We should all be "crucified" in order to die for our sins and our lies and then resurrect. This could be why Maynard changed the lyrics from "you must be crucified for our sins and our lies" to "for your sins and your lies" (in the official lyrics)?

The other thing is that you don't just become your true self the moment you decide to undergo this form of death. This doesn't happen all at once. Metaphorically speaking, you must crucify yourself several times.

I will end this by saying that this message could be for those looking for some sort of self help through the outside world as well. They desire for someone else to take away their sins and damage that is within. So its about martyr's and about those who need a martyr.