Writing music seems impossible. [Archive]

holy reality

07-17-2003, 12:41 PM

I just rip people off without even realizing it.

Latest example: I was screwing around with a funky sounding song, and I was surprised at how good it was. Then the next day I realized it was the exact same thing as the intro to RATM's Sleep Now in the Fire, just played in a slightly different way..... this pissed the hell out of me because

A) I didn't even know how to play that song, aside from screwing around with it a month ago using a completely different fingering after watching my friend play it.

and

B) It sounded so much like it but it took a whole fricking day to realize it.

Then if we step back in time some I have written some pretty cool sounding riffs, using the exact same notes and fingerings of reflection, with a similar sound..... I wrote something really heavy sounding only to realize it was the exact same thing with just a slightly different rhythmn as Aerosmith's Angel Eyes..... and then yesterday I was jacking around with power chords and found something that sounded cool, then I realized I was playing Metallica's Don't Tread on Me..... so....

I guess one good thing out of all of this is I have a good ear for picking up songs that I have never for the life of me even looked at the tabs to before, but.....

Damn it's really hard to be original..... it seems like anything you could ever come up with has already been done, and when you do make something catchy up that you think might actually be original, it kind of sucks. Or it still sounds vaguely remniscant of the bands you listen to.

So... how do you all write music without writing something that already exists without realizing it? Listen to a broader spectrum of bands maybe?

wonko_the_sane

07-17-2003, 01:04 PM

Damn it's really hard to be original..... it seems like anything you could ever come up with has already been done, and when you do make something catchy up that you think might actually be original, it kind of sucks. Or it still sounds vaguely remniscant of the bands you listen to.

So... how do you all write music without writing something that already exists without realizing it? Listen to a broader spectrum of bands maybe?
The way my band does it, we just jam out on a guitar riff, and I make up my own bass line, and the drummer comes up with his own beats, and the singers digs for lyrics that fit. There is no real way to ensure originality because no one person has ever heard every single song ever composed. We stay away from riffs that sound a lot like other bands as much as we can. If I come up with something that sounds a lot like another bass riff I'd heard, I might try fucking with the rhythm or tempo; I might drop some notes or add more in. There are countless ways to modify your creations. I don't know if this really helps, but oh well.

holy reality

07-17-2003, 01:07 PM

The way my band does it, we just jam out on a guitar riff, and I make up my own bass line, and the drummer comes up with his own beats, and the singers digs for lyrics that fit. There is no real way to ensure originality because no one person has ever heard every single song ever composed. We stay away from riffs that sound a lot like other bands as much as we can. If I come up with something that sounds a lot like another bass riff I'd heard, I might try fucking with the rhythm or tempo; I might drop some notes or add more in. There are countless ways to modify your creations. I don't know if this really helps, but oh well.

You don't feel cheapened knowing that your modified riff is in essence a rip off? I could modify the funk thing, switch things up..... but it doesn't feel right doing so.

wonko_the_sane

07-17-2003, 01:16 PM

You don't feel cheapened knowing that your modified riff is in essence a rip off? I could modify the funk thing, switch things up..... but it doesn't feel right doing so.
Yes, I do actually feel a bit plagiaristic and unoriginal, but I have to remember that to me, music is more than just notes; it's how I feel the notes. But that aside. Yes, I do find it bittersweet that it is so hard to be totally and completely original. That's when, I guess, I have to turn to the guys in my band, and rely on their creativity and nuance to add to and change what I have started with my riff that sounds like someone elses. We haven't really run into this yet, though. None of us, and no one who has heard us play, has ever said to us "hey man, that one song sounds like this other song..." so I guess we're trying pretty hard.

Paladin

07-17-2003, 03:19 PM

holy reality

07-17-2003, 04:19 PM

yeah, i suggest what wonko_the_sane said... just add things in there to change it...or just change one note to something else and it will sound completely differnt. if it started out sounding like some other song...and you didtn have the intention of making it a rip off of that other song, dont be hard on yourself; just muck up the riff a bit and it will be yours...
AHEM...

You don't feel cheapened knowing that your modified riff is in essence a rip off? I could modify the funk thing, switch things up..... but it doesn't feel right doing so.

It still feels unoriginal and cheap to do such a thing. At least in this scenario... the one I made with the reflection notes isn't too bad.

psilomind

07-17-2003, 04:32 PM

If you're really dedicated enough, the best thing to do is detach yourself from any music besides your own. I usually do this during my occassional periods of songwriting.

Also, try to do something that just sounds different. Usually a catchy riff is a sure-fire way to unintentionally copy someone else. Context is important too... a riff can be exactly like another, but still function in a completely unique way if it is placed correctly in the song.

Paladin

07-17-2003, 04:37 PM

well, if you feel unoriginal than i cant help you... i was saying even if it SOUNDS like another riff doenst mean you copied it, because you didnt know you copied it...the way you saying it is a lose situatio really... unless you want to sacrifice your style of song writing to go do something totaly obscure jsut so its not like anything but untrue to yourself.

Elgyn

07-17-2003, 04:41 PM

This is definately a tough call.
I used to always find myself coming up with other riffs, or when tryint to play something original, I would bump into another song and just get caught on that riff, unable to be creative any longer. Since I've developed my own style (only lately), I've found it a lot easier to come up with original sounds...
A lot of it is to do with forgetting what you previously know.. Now if I come across a song I know, I just keep moving, and hopefully I won't be effected by it....
But hey, coming up with something completely original is pretty tough, especially if you're only talking about a catchy riff... I riff can be made totally different when backed up by a band though, so there is always that to consider.
The best way I come up with songs, is by... well I guess by Jamming on my own, just stuffing around with different note combinations until I find something that is to my liking. Its pretty simple really, but its been working for me of late.

Mr. Zebra

07-17-2003, 07:34 PM

I ran into the same problem for awhile too, on guitar and piano, and even, occasionally, while singing (not really on bass- but that's just because my style of bass playing is so fucking weird; the closest thing I know is how Tori Amos' base player sounds in "Iieee"). Two things that helped me out of my slump- First, I started studying jazz. Yes, I know, jazz is a motherfucker to figure out; purposeful dissonance, improv. techniques, all those damn semitones, etc., etc... But you wouldn't believe what it did for my writing, people. Rock evolved from the jazz & blues, and half the time, dissonance and dense cordage (used correctly, at the right spots) is what makes a song catchy. If you don't want to dive headlong into jazz theory but you want to soak in some of those influences, you might try listening to some modern acts heavily influenced by (or still writing, in some cases) jazz, like:

Sting, of course
Fiona Apple
King Crimson
Frank Zappa
Nine Inch Nails (The Downward Spiral and The Fragile, esp.)
Radiohead
Tori Amos (not Scarlet's Walk so much- it's great, but a little more conventional, theorywise.)

See if you get some unique progressions and cordages running through your head after awhile on a diet of this stuff.

Another thing I do that you might want to try- if you play two instruments (I do this with guit. & piano, usually), try writing melodies and progressions for both instruments that LOCK TOGETHER, but don't sound like much INDIVIDUALLY. For example, a simple 5-chord upward pop progression on acoustic guitar, combined with a series of three descending piano arpeggios, or something like that (I just did that one). The guitar is going up while those intricate little piano arpeggios are going down , and it sounds phenominal. You can do this with any two melodic instruments; I used a cello and an electric guitar for a fast piece once (that rocked!), but it's hard if you have nothing to record with and no one to play with. Sorry, I'm getting carried away... I just hope I was of some help to somebody.

Dredg

07-17-2003, 08:00 PM

holy reality

07-17-2003, 08:09 PM

I think what reality described is a con about listening to music.....

here is the magical tip that will help you forever.......

get a bass player a drummer and yourself....(what ever instruments you want in a band).....and a tape recorder.....

your giving musicians too much credit....

get the band together get the tape recorder and hit record......everybody totally fucks around without even thinking about writing a riff..........the tape stops you gather everybody and you listen to the tape and listen for different things you liked out of the jam....

thats how I do it anyway......

yeah well that's fine and dandy but right now not possible... i'm hoping that i can meet some fellow tool fans in my music theory class though, and maybe we can start a band up..... hopefully the class will really help me improve my playing and writing skills, though i may end up having to take GOOD guitar lessons, since all I really do is screw around for a while trying to make something original, then play some of my favorite songs by various bands

and radiohead is jazz influenced? i'm starting to like them a lot but all i have is OK Computer right now.

Alexandra

07-17-2003, 08:47 PM

Ah, I know your problem dude.

But I have actually never had that problem (well, at least not that I am aware of, but like you said, I could suddenly discover one day that I have been playing something that was really someone else's).

I have been a pianist for about 9-10 years, and that's really all I've ever known, besides my E flat Alto Saxophone, and a lovely violin that I spent the summer with even though I didn't take a single lesson.

But I think sometimes, the inspiration will come from what your goal is for composing this piece that you're trying to write, holy. You probably are just fooling around like you said, trying to see what happens, and then maybe something completely awesome happens! I think that's a really good approach at times, and some of the most profound things can often result from these experiences.

Something that just works for me, is sitting by myself, in an almost meditative state on my piano bench. Sometimes I have to sit there in solitude for about 20 minutes or more, with the lights turned off, and just listening for what is inside my head. There's always music playing in my head. It's sort of like a radio, except it's just ALL music (no DJs of course) and ALL instrumental, and all the music's by me. So, I tap into what's just naturally spinning around in my head and try to go somewhere with it, and sometimes, it takes me somewhere rather than me controlling it too much. Then if I find something, I hear it and feel it - completely. Then I try to memorize it, and feel it all the way through, inwards and outwards, until my ear kind of memorizes it. This is the moment that I actually put my fingers to the keys, and start trying to find on my piano EXACTLY what I just heard. The first thing I do is try to find a key that I like it in, or a key that just sounds perfect for that piece.

That's usually where I start.

Another thing that works for me, is thinking of the images that my mind has just conjured up, straight out of its own imagination, then, I try to imagine and feel what sort of music that I think is there. Feeling an image is sometimes easier, because when you feel it and really connect with it, your emotions take over, and those emotions can lead your brain into some musical representations of that particular image. Or maybe that image spawns a particular melody that's all its own.

Out of all of the ways that I have done, those two seem to work the best for me.

holy reality

07-17-2003, 09:20 PM

Something that just works for me, is sitting by myself, in an almost meditative state on my piano bench. Sometimes I have to sit there in solitude for about 20 minutes or more, with the lights turned off, and just listening for what is inside my head. There's always music playing in my head. It's sort of like a radio, except it's just ALL music (no DJs of course) and ALL instrumental, and all the music's by me. So, I tap into what's just naturally spinning around in my head and try to go somewhere with it, and sometimes, it takes me somewhere rather than me controlling it too much. Then if I find something, I hear it and feel it - completely. Then I try to memorize it, and feel it all the way through, inwards and outwards, until my ear kind of memorizes it. This is the moment that I actually put my fingers to the keys, and start trying to find on my piano EXACTLY what I just heard. The first thing I do is try to find a key that I like it in, or a key that just sounds perfect for that piece.

Those are fantastic methods, and I too hear music in my head just like you described it, but the problem is, what I hear is far too technical for me to even figure out the fingering/notes for, let alone play it..... usually it's some cool solo that I come up with spontaneously and hear in my head, nothing as complex as like Steve Vai or anything, but stil to complex for me to learn by "ear" ..... someday maybe..... but meditating with my guitar in my hand.... that might be an interesting thing to pursue.... playing what I see so to speak... hmm..... a mild hallucinagen would really help, since I don't see much, but I'm getting slightly better (at seeing things)

See I need to live ALONE where I can spend my whole damn day meditating, or do drugs, or meditating while on drugs, or playing guitar as loud as I want without worrying about people listening (i hate people hearing me practice, i can perform for people, but i hate having them hear me practice) plus I can't record in here because everyone is always in here goofing around and watching tv and it's far more efficient to record on the computer than a tape recorder (i don't have a tape recorder anyway)

great post though, i'm glad i found someone who hears music in their head like that

and man was this post a grammar and spelling nightmare... i need to go to sleep, and hopefully start "projecting" again....

Alexandra

07-17-2003, 09:34 PM

Those are fantastic methods, and I too hear music in my head just like you described it, but the problem is, what I hear is far too technical for me to even figure out the fingering/notes for, let alone play it..... usually it's some cool solo that I come up with spontaneously and hear in my head, nothing as complex as like Steve Vai or anything, but stil to complex for me to learn by "ear" Ah, but that's the challenge, my friend! That's what's fun for me. And if I can't do it, then I just turn it into something else, or try incessantly to do it.

Just on a side note, I see that our reputation systems are gone, and we have two new sub-forums added to the Interact Forum. (I didn't think the reputation systems would be gone that fast!

great post though, i'm glad i found someone who hears music in their head like thatYou know, I think we all do. It's just a matter of really listening to what your mind is playing, and why. Or, if it is playing something at all.

And here's three more things that are extremely important in composing music:

1. Believe in yourself

2. Listen (sometimes ask yourself, am I really listening? Really?) Sometimes after you listen to yourself, you hear something different and it's like opening another door.

3. Let yourself flow

Mr. Zebra

07-17-2003, 10:53 PM

holy reality- I really latched on to what you're saying- if the music your head is too difficult for you to play, I would that that's a VERY good sign. All you need now is the practice, and the theory, to make it work. The meditating thing is good, but more specifically, try really listening to the stuff in your head, simple stuff first, and basically do your best to make those noises come out of your instrument. this can be very frustrating at first, but it'll get easier the better you know your way around your instrument. This is where theory and practice come in. believe it or not, KNOWING YOUR SCALES DOES HELP. I know that sounds REALLY basic, but if you can play a major or minor scale from any note on the guitar or piano, your writing will jump LIGHT YEARS. Try practicing those, if you have the patience.

Oh, and listen to everything Alexandra said.

Alexandra-
You gave me shivers. It's creepy how well I relate to what you said- that eternal stream of audial landscapes just burning in my mind, itching to be incarnated into symphonies and tightened into real grooves (except I hear vocals too 'cause I sing). It feels fantastic to relate to someone like this. And your writing process- that's EXACLTY how I experience it, that's EXACTLY how I write TO A T! The way you described the sensations involved gave me goosebumps because I've FELT THEM MYSELF. Sorry if I'm gushing- I still live with my family (off to Cal State Long Beach in 2 months!), and they don't exacly encourage my musical inclinations. I rarely find someone I can relate to on this level.

Oh yeah- and h.r.- a lot of the chord and melodic progressions Radiohead uses are jazz-influenced. Plus, I figured I should list anyone who uses unique/unconventional progressions; stuff that might aid in writing original material. Those bands always help my writer's block.

nomanirvana

07-18-2003, 09:35 AM

Just dont think about it, if you dont think about it at all chances are you will come up with something original unless your totally cursed. When it comes to power chords its harder, you have to go elsewhere and try to be more complex

Mr. Zebra

07-18-2003, 10:09 AM

holy reality

07-18-2003, 11:38 AM

Um, I think the reason that this thread exists is that, thanks to our constant bombardment with overused musical formulas by the mass media, it's difficult to come up with original material even when doing that. Believe it or not, sometimes it helps to think about what you're writing, but you still have to LET IT FLOW, of course.

Oh, and h.r.- it disturbs me a bit to hear that you think you can only create art, visual or otherwise, if you do drugs. Do you know what Maynard said "Sober" is about? On a lighter note- yeah I think that theory class will really open some doors for you. It's more useful stuff than a lot of people think.

Oh yeah, and Dredg is apparently not a musician, so I wouldn't listen to him. Sorry, but there's a big difference between making musical sounds and being a musician.

you must not have understood what i was getting at.... first of all i'm not an artist, what i was saying was it is very hard to see ANYTHING inside my head, and that i'm getting better at it, but i would really like to try some psychadelic drugs because they sort of bring that area to life, give it a spark, open up parts of your brain that you have never used before, and what i didn't mention is that upon having once used them, it will be much easier to access them again, without drugs, because you know what it's like to be seeing through your third eye, and stuff, you've had a completely new perspective on life and things.

i hear people talking about intense visions they have, some of them having never touched drugs, and i simply can't achieve these, if i go the route of meditation sure in maybe 20 years i might be able to see the things some people see regularly, but i'd rather go the quicker route, and then try to recreate that experience, i mean the third eye is kind of like a muscle, once it has been thoroughly used/opened (via drugs) it will be easier to open it again, will it not? also keep in mind i am not in an environment in which i can use them, so it would pretty much be a one time thing.

maynard himself said you should do drugs once and then spend the rest of your life trying to get that feeling naturally, or something like that

This is where theory and practice come in. believe it or not, KNOWING YOUR SCALES DOES HELP. I know that sounds REALLY basic, but if you can play a major or minor scale from any note on the guitar or piano, your writing will jump LIGHT YEARS. Try practicing those, if you have the patience.

the problem is if i stay in one or two scales i'm going to sound just like everyone else in the world... aren't I?

psilomind

07-18-2003, 11:43 AM

...but i would really like to try some psychadelic drugs because they sort of bring that area to life, give it a spark, open up parts of your brain that you have never used before...

I think your expectations of the drugs are a bit off. Its more along the lines of shutting down parts of your brain that you use too much, so that others become more vivid. And I still agree with you in that, yes it does really help get your creative juices flowing. But as Mr. Zebra said, dont become dependent on it.

Mr. Zebra

07-18-2003, 12:17 PM

holy reality- I understand what you're saying, and I do believe that drug use can produce some positive results, but here's the thing-
I read an interview with Maynard where he actually talked about the reason he had written "Sober". Maynard apparently has a freind who's a visual artist. He creates his art based on images he sees in his mind (like most artists); "visions" like the ones you described (that I get and use too). This man began using drugs in order to enhance these "visions" and his ability to find them. Maynard returned after a tour to find that this man could no longer create art if he wasn't high. His "muscle" had atrophied from underuse. This pissed Maynard off so much that he refused to have anything to do with the process. He wrote "Sober", apparently, almost in mourning, in a way- in anger that someone could so dash their own potential.

The thing about drug use is, psilomind is right- drugs shut down certain parts of your brain. You can also do this on your own. I have. But why would you want to make the window that you percieve reality through smaller? Much as so many hate to admit it, all drugs are doing is altering YOUR brain chemistry, not reality. You're just looking at the world through a rose-colored lens; just seeing things "through a glass darkly" when you're on drugs. Much as it may feel like you're expanding your potential to YOU, all you're really doing is closing yourself inside your own head, and letting your REAL muscle, your REAL intuition for dealing with reality, your REAL third eye wither away. You can take drugs to see things in a new way, sure... but you don't need them. You don't need to dump chemicals into your bloodstream in order to gain new perspectives- you can do it all by yourself. And that way they'll be real, applicable perspectives- not just smudges on your lens.

Oh- and no, knowing your scales won't make you sound like every one else... you can play a major and minor scale from ANY NOTE on a guitar or piano, you can shift pitch in semitones, you can jump between the scales... imagine the possibilities. Basically, scales aren't a structure you have to stay within; They're a TOOL to help you know your way around your instrument; if you know them well enough, from every note, you'll be able to navigate that guitar effortlessly; at least in my experience, it helps.

nomanirvana

07-18-2003, 12:17 PM

I think your overanalyzing your situation, just try different things and make up songs with people without all this in mind and they will probably be original. Total originality is impossible because we are all using the same notes, and there are only so many combonations and melodies that sound good. Its always going to sound a little like something else, the originality comes in the details.

Mr. Zebra

07-18-2003, 12:28 PM

holy reality

07-18-2003, 01:32 PM

holy reality- I understand what you're saying, and I do believe that drug use can produce some positive results, but here's the thing-
I read an interview with Maynard where he actually talked about the reason he had written "Sober". Maynard apparently has a freind who's a visual artist. He creates his art based on images he sees in his mind (like most artists); "visions" like the ones you described (that I get and use too). This man began using drugs in order to enhance these "visions" and his ability to find them. Maynard returned after a tour to find that this man could no longer create art if he wasn't high. His "muscle" had atrophied from underuse. This pissed Maynard off so much that he refused to have anything to do with the process. He wrote "Sober", apparently, almost in mourning, in a way- in anger that someone could so dash their own potential.

The thing about drug use is, psilomind is right- drugs shut down certain parts of your brain. You can also do this on your own. I have. But why would you want to make the window that you percieve reality through smaller? Much as so many hate to admit it, all drugs are doing is altering YOUR brain chemistry, not reality. You're just looking at the world through a rose-colored lens; just seeing things "through a glass darkly" when you're on drugs. Much as it may feel like you're expanding your potential to YOU, all you're really doing is closing yourself inside your own head, and letting your REAL muscle, your REAL intuition for dealing with reality, your REAL third eye wither away. You can take drugs to see things in a new way, sure... but you don't need them. You don't need to dump chemicals into your bloodstream in order to gain new perspectives- you can do it all by yourself. And that way they'll be real, applicable perspectives- not just smudges on your lens.

Mr Zebra... the pineal gland is usually only active when you are dying or rapidly approaching death... very few people can ever use it voluntarily in the way that it would be used upon doing various substances. Now you say this artists "muscle" had atrophied from underuse? What are you referring to... his "third eye"? How can that be so if he was never using it all until he started abusing drugs? Are you talking about the other normal parts of his brain that he neglected from getting high too many times? I do completely realize the dangers in substance abuse. But these chemicals.... at least the ones I would like to release, are NATURAL chemicals found in your brain... and how are you supposed to stimulate them to start producing themselves in higher amounts just by will? We cannot (at least most us) control the secretion of hormones and chemicals in our bodies....

Besides, anything that you preceive is real, you are speaking of drug experieces as if they are phoney, well I ask you, what is real? What if you dont' exist and are just a facet of my subconcious that developed because I needed advice on music?

Anyways.... I don't think taking shrooms once in a blue moon, or once in a lifetime, is going to harm me.

though i'm not sure i want to at this point, but it is a possibility and a curiosity

Dredg

07-18-2003, 07:25 PM

Oh yeah, and Dredg is apparently not a musician, so I wouldn't listen to him. Sorry, but there's a big difference between making musical sounds and being a musician.

read my post again.......making musical sounds? I said play around with a band and record you messing around with riffs and stuff....go back and listen and you might come apon something different and new......

Mr. Zebra

07-18-2003, 09:02 PM

holy reality

07-18-2003, 09:10 PM

well how often did you do them? i plan on doing them once and not trying to create while on them, just taking things in.....

and no, i don't jam... i have no one to jam with.... I'm trying to collaborate with someone from these forums though, hoping we can make something cool sounding....

Mr. Zebra

07-19-2003, 12:47 AM

Okay... if you think you can handle it, I have faith in you. Problem is, I have too many friends who said exactly the same thing, and now... well, you get the idea. But go ahead, if you think that's what you need. I'm just letting you know that I don't think you need it. I think you could do it on your own. And I think that you could do it BETTER.

I'd love to collaborate with you- unfortunately, I live in SoCal and you live in Oklahoma. I don't really know how we'd write anything together in any kind of timely fashion over the net, but if you have any ideas...

psilomind

07-19-2003, 07:42 AM

I get what you're saying, h.r., but I still don't buy that randomly releasing chemicals that exist in your brain for a specific purpose aids in experiencing reality. And don't think I haven't tried it. I have. I stopped because it wasn't working. I wasn't writing better. I was writing worse. I was focusing less. No one could relate to me. I still think all you'd be doing is tainting your lens. and if you want to argue subjective reality- that your "lens" may be all that there is, fine- but I think you'll find that thinking that way won't get you anywhere. Eventually, you still have to live your life. If reality is subjective, then why did you bother asking for help to write music? Would you even bother writing music, if your perspective defines reality? None of this might be real. You might not be reading this. The Matrix might have you... that line of reasoning never actaullty produces anything other than denial, and an eventual return to living life- so apparently there is a life to be lived. You don't have to listen to me, of course, and I have no right to tell you what to do, and I very well may be full of shit. This is an OPINION page, remember.

You seem to have a very negative outlook on possibilities. Just because you don't know if anything is real or not, doesnt mean you cant selectively believe in what makes you happy. In fact, that is why I have done psychadelics, and why I still do them. Becuase it gives you a different view of reality, a view that was experienced with enough intensity that it becomes acceptable as real in your mind. I know what you mean with this 'being able to recreate the same effect without drugs' deal. In fact, I can do this as well, and it is not that difficult. But what is VERY difficult, is to completely believe that those visions could be real. Its hard to accept the chaos and madness of possibility in your right mind.

And the concept of 'tainting your lens' is a recurring one in your posts. If you carefully read my description of drugs earlier, you might see that is more like cleaning the lens. In my opinion, though I may be entirely wrong, they shut down the parts of your brain that taint the lens in order to make you more fit for survival. So in general, drugs let you sacrifice your natural survival-based routine in order to attain a new, whole-heartedly believed perspective.

Anyway, this is getting completely off topic. As for writing music, I guess I'll write my most commonly used method lately:

First, you should have a sort of finger exercise that you play every time you pick up the instrument. It should be solo-ish, but less abstract. Start to mix up the notes to match the song playing in your head. It also helps to have certain intervals, rythms, and progressions that you are comfortable with, which will eventually determine the style of music you play. I personally have fallen in the trap of playing everything in D minor, mostly from the avid tool listening. Try to avoid this. Eventually when you find a nice enough progression of notes a riff will begin to form. Now is the time to start messing around with your scales, and in the case of guitar, begin to incorporate some chord patterns. The finished product will be one riff. Others will come, and soon enough you'll have a song.

At least thats how I do it.

holy reality

07-19-2003, 10:04 AM

I'd love to collaborate with you- unfortunately, I live in SoCal and you live in Oklahoma. I don't really know how we'd write anything together in any kind of timely fashion over the net, but if you have any ideas...
What instrument do you play?

I wrote something pretty cool the other night, at least I thought it was at first, but after a while I started to think it was crappy, probably because I was playing it too much, so I stoped, and I'll come back to it later... but the problem is, it's just the same thing over and over.... it would be much more suitable to be like a bass part or possibly a rhythmn guitar part, but I don't see how I could ever form a song with it.... but maybe ideas will come... it's just like you can string two random riffs together and make a song with them but it's hard to find different riffs that actually feel like they belong together without having them sound like they are pretty much the same thing.

wonko_the_sane

07-19-2003, 04:03 PM

it's just like you can string two random riffs together and make a song with them but it's hard to find different riffs that actually feel like they belong together without having them sound like they are pretty much the same thing.
Yes, the band I am in has hit this many times before. We use process of elimination, and our songs are getting better (from Christ that sucks! to Hey, that's decent). Our first *big* show was last night, and we did ok. The actual playing part seems more like blur to me, but the getting stoned part still comes readily to mind for some reason.

nomanirvana

07-19-2003, 04:29 PM

So nomanirvana is basically saying... LEARN NOTHING. REMAIN COMPLETELY IGNORANT. That's fantastic, infinitely helpful advice, all right. People who aren't musicians REALLY shouldn't give musical advice. It doesn't contribute much.

Thats bullshit. I didnt say that at all.

You make my point, its taken too seriously. Just make
music and if its not original enough for you try again. Its in the details.

And I am a musician, its never been a problem for me where I have to analyze my music every second as say "is this original"? ... its never just jumped out at me like ive totally heard this exact thing before. Go with the flow and make the music happen, thats when the best results come personally.

If you write a song that your not happy with, just try again. If it sounds like something else, just try again.

psilomind

07-19-2003, 06:18 PM

Thats bullshit. I didnt say that at all.

You make my point, its taken too seriously. Just make
music and if its not original enough for you try again. Its in the details.

And I am a musician, its never been a problem for me where I have to analyze my music every second as say "is this original"? ... its never just jumped out at me like ive totally heard this exact thing before. Go with the flow and make the music happen, thats when the best results come personally.

If you write a song that your not happy with, just try again. If it sounds like something else, just try again.

Yeah, but don't go acting like you're method is perfect. Maybe these people are trying to produce something more than mediocre riffs to pass the time.

Where the fuck can I find your CD?

nomanirvana

07-19-2003, 06:49 PM

The point is I dont have a method, and I dont have a cd, and how do you know my riff's are mediocre...and who defines what mediocrity is anyway...sheesh. Im not claiming to be some oracle of music. Its just my personal experiences.

The only things I have recorded are on mp3.com, go to the "Shutter Gate & Effulgence" thread for the links. They arent some miraculous composition, I just had a chance to record some stuff with a program on my friends computer and I did that, it was about 3 years and I am currently not in any band or anything, I just write songs for myself...some I think are good others I dont like so much.

I dont have every musical peice in my collection so im never going to know if I have a "riff" that is identical to someone elses, im sure songs ive written probably sound similar to something, its pretty unavoidable. Most music will always sound alike to an extent, atleast thats how it feels to my ears. I never hear a peice of music that sounds TOTALLY original in terms of the general feel / melody, I am always reminded of some other sound or some other peice of music or style etc. When it comes to the details its definitely not the exact same. There is more to music than just guitar riffs anyway.

Mr. Zebra

07-20-2003, 12:13 AM

nomanirvana- You, my freind, are beyond help. Beyond hope. You should keep in mind that the literal definition of the word "musician" is "one who studies music". Go out and learn something new. Study MUSIC HISTORY and THEORY. Listen to some Nine Inch Nails, King Crimson, Frank Zappa, and Tori Amos. Maybe some classical music- John Rutter, perhaps? I don't honestly expect you to do any of this, though. I expect you to continue to wallow in your ignorance. Prove me wrong.

holy reality- Well... I play guitar, piano, bass (upright and electric), harmonica, and I'm just getting decent at drums. Cello is next on my list. Oh, and I sing. That's number one. I'm a lead singer at heart. My range is HIGH baritone. Almost tenor, but not quite.

I know what you mean about those guitar riffs. I don't mean to sound like a broken record, but the more you know, the easier this is going to get. you guys don't need to take my word on any of this. Go learn some theory. Apply it. practice your instrument. SEE IF IT HELPS. Is there a way you can share that riff with me over the 'net? I'm new at this- I've never tried to collaborate with anybody musically online before. I'll learn about that and try to post some of my stuff, too. Oh yeah- don't listen to anybody that tells you you DON"T need to go and learn something. Seriously- have you EVER regretted learning something new? Could learning more about music somehow make you a worse musician? No, I don't think so. So what have you got to lose?

psilomind- You rock. Even if we disagree about the drug thing. You still rock.

holy reality

07-20-2003, 11:05 AM

I know what you mean about those guitar riffs. I don't mean to sound like a broken record, but the more you know, the easier this is going to get. you guys don't need to take my word on any of this. Go learn some theory. Apply it. practice your instrument. SEE IF IT HELPS. Is there a way you can share that riff with me over the 'net? I'm new at this- I've never tried to collaborate with anybody musically online before. I'll learn about that and try to post some of my stuff, too. Oh yeah- don't listen to anybody that tells you you DON"T need to go and learn something. Seriously- have you EVER regretted learning something new? Could learning more about music somehow make you a worse musician? No, I don't think so. So what have you got to lose?

psilomind- You rock. Even if we disagree about the drug thing. You still rock.

Well... I am taking Music Theory this semester so.... yeah I'll be learning something new... and I've decided that once school starts up and I (ironically) have more free time to practice, I'll make myself learn scales, which won't be fun....

The riff... I could share it with you, but I have huge fears about posting original things on the net because then I could get ripped off....

But if what OftenLost (bass) and I (guitar) are talking about trying to do actually works, we could use drums and/or vocals I suppose.

You can listen to my somewhat improvised intro to schism if you'd like though, I have that up on my site, but it's not really anything original or indicative of my skills. I like what I did with the feedback though.

holy reality

07-20-2003, 11:09 AM

my above post is bugged and it doesn't show that i have the last post in here like it thinks t hat one doesn't exist... so i'm making this one so it'll pop up and people know i have made a new reply in it

psilomind

07-20-2003, 11:50 AM

I'd like to hear that intro. What's your site?

nomanirvana

07-20-2003, 02:14 PM

You know what? Screw this, im not posting anymore...because obviously all people do here is insult me. Im ignorant, a hyprocrite...hmmm. NONE OF YOU EVEN KNOW ME. All I do is post what I think, my personal experience, without attacking anyone, and what happens? This automatically leads me to be a stupid ignorant peice of shit even though none of you know me or anything about what I do with my instrument.

Ive never told anyone to stop learning new things.

There are those melodies/riffs/whatever that simply FEEL amazing, and they are not necessarily complex or difficult to play. Its these melodies or motif's where the general feeling is often reproduced in music, and its not necessarily a bad thing. Im not saying we should all just sit around and play these things over and over, im just saying that when it comes to the details the real originality can come through.

Its just how it feels to me when I hear and play music.

holy reality

07-20-2003, 05:01 PM

don't worry nomanirvana, I don't think you're an ignorant piece of shit...

There are those melodies/riffs/whatever that simply FEEL amazing, and they are not necessarily complex or difficult to play. Its these melodies or motif's where the general feeling is often reproduced in music, and its not necessarily a bad thing. Im not saying we should all just sit around and play these things over and over, im just saying that when it comes to the details the real originality can come through.

The thing for me is those riffs quickly stop feeling amazing and start feeling crappy..... maybe I'm too judgemental of myself.

Mr. Zebra

07-20-2003, 05:21 PM

nomaniwhatever- YES. I KNOW. That would be the basic idea behind all music in existence. Certain things sound good. The thing is, every time one of us tried to move beyond this and throw out ideas on the theory, structure, and possibilities contained in said music, you popped up and said something like, "just don't think about it, and chances are you'll come up with something original." or "I think you're overanalyzing your situation. Just try different things, and you'll come up with something original- total originality is impossible..." or, alternately, "just make music, and if it's not original enough, try again." We all agree with you. We're just trying to take it FURTHER.

I hope you post again. I'd lose respect for you if you quit just because of arrogant assholes like me. Fuck me. I don't matter. My opinion of you shouldn't matter to you. Think for yourself. Don't let us get to you.

h.r.- I'd like to hear that intro too. I love creative use of feedback. Oh, & I'll keep trying to figure out how to post my stuff so you can get a sample of my singing; see if you want me to contribute. I don't think I'm good enough at drums to help you with that quite yet- all I can handle at this point is Offspring, stuff like that. I'll keep practicing, though.

holy reality

07-20-2003, 06:24 PM

all right.... i'll face my fears of being ripped off (even though if I were ripped off you couldn't make any profit off of schism aside from doing covers) and post the intro for everyone to see... errr... hear...

www.angelfire.com/hiphop3/hankhill/schismfinal.mp3

i screwed up the actual beginnign of the song a little bit, but i didn't feel like redoing it

if you think it blows be nice about saying so lol, i'm sensitive....

wonko_the_sane

07-20-2003, 09:20 PM

That's pretty good hr, I think it has a nice ambient feel to it. I don't have anything of me playing, except for my bands first demo, which is horrible and doesn't have anything fancy on it, and no real expedient way of recording myself right now.

Elgyn

07-20-2003, 10:32 PM

I find I can relate to most of the techniques being discussed here in some form or another.
I usually tend to feel an emotion at a certain time, and try and compose something which reflects that. Sometimes I'm just too angry, sometimes I'm too tired, and sometimes I seem to be able to find the right combination of notes to really make something work. For me song writing is a temperamental thing, and I try not to too be disapointed if I can't always come up with something I am happy with.

I think the idea of not really thinking or analysing can be used to some extent, so as something truly creative can be produced, but at the same time, there must be a degree of thinking involved, or the music you create will merely be average. What I mean by this is that when I play music (particularly improvised) I generally fall back on what I know about the nature of the guitar, such as which note combinations create what emotional mood, and also on which notes are used in the key I'm in.
This may not be the case for everyone, but for me I like to leave a slight link with my mind when I play. Most of this actually requires minimal thought though, because at the stage I am at I have a fair amount of basic knowledge, such as scales. The value of scales can't be discounted at all, even though it is boring most of the time. A good way I found to really cement scales in my head is to play along with a tune in that key, and improvise over the scale... In this way its easy to tell if you've found the scale or not, because a wrong note usually rings with a certain dis-harmony. I simply use this method to familiarise myself with scales, because I find it more enjoyable, and in the long term, just as beneficial as repeating scales in a 1-2-3-4-5 kind of sequence.
As a result of this though, I know mostly only A minor/C Major (relative major - yes), E Minor/G Major, and D minor/F Major scales... These are just the general scales used in contemporary music.
Sometimes using an entirely different scale is a great idea though, because I have to free form my ideas, as against in a better known scale (such as A minor), in which I would have particular patterns which I subconsciously refer back to.
I'm always trying to learn new things (and you've inspired me to learn a bit of Jazz Mr. Zebra), because the more I know, the more options I have in composing music. I like to think I'll never stop reminding myself that I haven't learned everything there is to learn.
Not thinking while playing may work to a certain extent, but if you get to the point where you know enough about the basics (and the not-so-basics), that you don't really need to think about them when you play, you're going to come up with much better music.
Don't stress though, its all a learning experience, and no one ever stops learning unless they convince themselves that they are the best there is.

Just a few thoughts I've come up with based on the discussions of this thread. Feel free to dispute/discuss anything I've said, because I'm not saying "I'm right"... its just my personal reflection on things.

Mr. Zebra

07-21-2003, 01:43 AM

BINGO!!! With me- I never stop learning, and, of course, I think/analyze while I learn, but I don't really think the same way when I play/write. Those are two different modes for me.

h.r.- that was spiffy. I loved the improvised feel; the way you took your time and toyed with the melody- those heavy pauses, and the pick screeches, etc. I'd love to run some production on that- maybe some background ambiance- like, overdub another guitar doing a wicked fast, screechy solo in the background, but VERY quietly and kind of echo-y. Maybe even some random, echoing drum beats and rolls building towards the end, like in Dire Straits' "Money For Nothin'" intro...sorry. I get a little carried away, creatively speaking. But I see possibilities everywhere. You could do more/better with that guitarwise, though; build the tension even more than you did, and maybe pull some trickier fingering; mess around even more and repeat a little less- but I'm sure you realize that already. And I thought it rocked.

holy reality

07-21-2003, 10:19 AM

well thanks for the positive feedback....

my "song" is coming along a little bit, but... the heavy part I wrote for it sounds too much like 46 and 2... sort of... it has to because that's the key I put it in, but.... it uses higher up notes for the most part..... so it doesn't sound too much like it.... but the "intro" or whatever the hell it is... I'm not sure how the hell I'd transition from that, to the intro riff, to the heavy part... and dammit the intro riff sounds good with and without wah and with and without PMing, but if I do both it'll be really repetetive...

March The Scaffold

07-22-2004, 02:13 PM

I don't know if someone mentioned this or not already, but improvising brings out your true originality. Playing music that is completely caught in the moment will help you to find your own unique sound. What my band does a lot, is we'll do structured improvs, where you have certain riffs you jam on at a show or something. That way, it's completely different everytime you play it, and you can adapt it however you want. And when you jam on something, trust me, it will goes places that you would not expect. But it helps to somewhat musically educated. That will open new doors of creativity. Hope this helps.

chad

RonArtest

07-22-2004, 07:14 PM

Not to be a dick, but it's a total joke holy reality is acting like people are going to rip off his music.

holy reality

07-22-2004, 07:23 PM

damn thread bumping.

you are right, it's highly unlikely someone would rip me off given how much i suck, how i never manage to FINISH my songs in the first place, and well... that i suck.

but damn why the hell was this bumped?

Seph's Dialated Aperture

08-17-2004, 12:01 PM

I have had the same problem. And I've asked countless people for advice, but nobody I know has had any advice even close to as good as wonko's. But the unfortunate thing for me is that I have no band members to jam with or rely on for a beat. I don't know anyone who plays any instruments, I've always had a hard time meeting people in real life, and if I did meet someone who played drums or bass, I'd feel uncomfortable asking them to play, or I'd feel uncomfortable sitting there with them. I think music is a lot more of a personal thing than meeting some people and jamming with them. I think you need to be friends with the people, comfortable with the people. Well I gotta go, but there's my thoughts.

OftenLost

08-17-2004, 01:12 PM

for some reason i've only done this once ever. i realized i was playing almost exactly the guitar riff from bob by primus. i just kinda changed a string and the only thing that's the same is at the very beginning of the riff it goes 0h6p0 but on a different string. now it doesn't even sound like it. i suggest pretty much doing shit like that.
So your basically playing the theme a fourth away, and calling it something different?

BassWah

08-17-2004, 08:24 PM

Good Topic

BassWah

08-17-2004, 08:27 PM

I wonder if Vanilla Ice had ever had this conversation

exojjl

10-04-2004, 11:26 PM

if nothing helps, listen to less music, and when you do listen to some music, dont listen closely. Listen to less music and spend more time creating music instead. The more you create, the more you come to find what you like and dislike and what is to similar to something else. Just fuck around without really thinking about it, and then you might create something on accident. And then take that Accidental riff and progress it into something that is on purpose. find something else besides music that can be inspirational. Movies, pictures, art, anything you find that suits you. Sometime try by putting on a effect, then playing something that works well with that riff. For instances just take a flanger and put it up all the way till it sounds like an airplane, and then just hit a certain note or chord, and that can be really cool, especially if you have a band you can spice it up with a really nice drum riff and a bass riff.
Thats how some famous riffs can be. They sound cool o nthe recrding, but some stuff by themselves just dont sound as cool.