Why isn't anyone discussing Prison Sex?

[Freemena]

I've read most of the site now and all of my other favorite songs (Forty-six and 2, Vicarious, The Pot) have just reams of animated (if perverse and off-subject) dicussion... but this one... nothing but "This song is awesome and they should play it live!" Does everybody think it's so taboo they are scared to discuss? Is it really so obivous to everybody the layers of meaning within this song? Or do you all think it is just about sodemy and the pscyological effects there of? No one else thinks it's about coruption of the mind and soul? Noone else thinks it's about the need to connect when you are broken and bleeding inside, even if it almost kills the person you connect with? Come on people! Embrace the shadow within you and stray onto the dark path for a moment... if you are wholey light, you can never know compassion. Does anyone else feel this way about the song? Or am I just way overanalyzing it?

EDIT: I just found the "View all" Button... Ok, so I haven't lost all respect for you guys! But still, I'd like to hear your opinions... faces change and songs evolve.

[nabiliofadilio]

cool, i'm in

[nabiliofadilio]

i've alwasy thought this song was not necissarily all about prison sex, that ws just an example
child abuse
manipulation
cheating

and during the song, i sense kind of regret in his voice,
is it just me?

[nabiliofadilio]

when he says "i have found, some kind of temporary sanity in this...ect" it sounds like on a regualr day he is this craving monster, blindly fulfilling his NEED, and when his need is fulfilled, for that one moment he is sane, and realizes what he has done. REGRET, DISGUST at himself.
at least i think...

[nabiliofadilio]

bummer man, no ones posting, not even the thread starter

[Freemena]

i've alwasy thought this song was not necissarily all about prison sex, that ws just an example
child abuse
manipulation
cheating

and during the song, i sense kind of regret in his voice,
is it just me?

Hehe... Nobody posted for a long time. Sorry about not checking it. I didn't know how to subcribe to it when I posted, lol.

I see it going further than that, myself. I mean when Maynard sings "I need you to feel this, I need this to make me whole, release in sodemy" The words "In sodemy" sound like "Inside of me". I interprete this to be embracing, exploring your dark side. Facing the horrors within yourself, whatever they may be.

Everyone has been the victem. Everyone has been the abuser, even if they never actually do it. They have thought about it. It doesn't really matter what the abuse is (though I think most people, if they will only admit it, have these kinds of power fanticies, to hold someone helpless and make them feel the same kind of pain you have felt). This song is also inately sexual, sensual. Corrupted sex, the inability to feel love, but feeling the physical drive and taking out this misery on an unsuspecting victem.

"I am your witness the blood and flesh can be trusted". This is a statement that even if the thoughts can't be trusted, physical acts can. They don't lie. I did this, I can't undo it. It is done. Going though the evil things you have done can cleanse the soul. But once you do it, how can you stop? That's the dicotomy; the juxtaposition. You need it. I see it relating to Stinkfist, too, in that reguard. I don'tquite know where i am going with this, but I think you bring up some good points. I wanted to get some thoughts down before the thread died.

Thanks for responding.

[nabiliofadilio]

hey it was my pleasure to talk about this!

you make a lot of sense, A LOT

also, it sounds like hes saying this urge is kinda a curse thats been passed on to him, someone did a horrible thing and now its his inner duty to do onto others
he also calls this act of sodomy a "holy medium" this heanous act brings him piece of mind, he is desperate for the saneness. he doesn't want it but he has to do this

when he says "Show me something
Thought I could make it end
Thought I could wash the stains away
Thought I could break the circle if I
Slipped right into your skin
So sweet was your surrender
We have become one
I have become my terror
And you my precious lamb and martyr"

it sounds like he tricked himself into doing it, he thought it would end once he did it. but it didn't. so he does it again and again always hoping the urge would die forever

also, when he says hes come round full circle, he just gives more evidence to the fact that the urge is still there--- he had this undying urge, he did it thinking he cold get rid of the urge, and hes come back round full circle to ahving the urge and hoping for release

PHEW! sorry i repeated myself so much i can't organize my thoughts worth shit
hope you reply

[nabiliofadilio]

Everyone has been the victem. Everyone has been the abuser, even if they never actually do it. They have thought about it. It doesn't really matter what the abuse is (though I think most people, if they will only admit it, have these kinds of power fanticies, to hold someone helpless and make them feel the same kind of pain you have felt). This song is also inately sexual, sensual. Corrupted sex, the inability to feel love, but feeling the physical drive and taking out this misery on an unsuspecting victem..

this makes so much sense. it kinda scares me. are we all that cruel in our heads? everyone is so capable of all this. does it mean only the weak follow through?

[Freemena]

I don't think it's so much that those that give in are weak, but that they have a greater need than others. Those that don't give in feel "Whole" inside, for the most part, while those that do need something else to bridge the gap, to make them "Whole". These people usually have had expierences that have "Broken" them, in some way... like being abused, neglected or otherwise subjected to trama. Add to this a fact that most people that don't feel "Whole" can still find a non-abusive activity to distract them from doing this, and you may find that those that are very weak are not any more likely. Instead, it is the opportunity and the inability to find another outlet. For instance, many people that are attracted to children will find a very small woman (or man) for a mate and never touch a child. Those that can't find a mate like this then have two choices:find a child or a regular mate to satisfy him/her. If a child is avalible and a regular mate isn't, (or if they just can't fill the place inside them), they are much more likely to do it than someone in a stable relationship with no children around. Make sense?

Puting in another way... everybody has thier kinks. Everybody has something that turns them on, more than conventional society allows for. Everybody. It is the acceptablity of the kink and whether you can find someone that will allow you to explore it in a healthy manner that can make you into an abuser of whatever it is. Maybe you like to be dominent... lots of people who perpetuate physical abuse have domintent fetishes, but they won't admit it, will find a partner that will suit thier need to dominate by being meek and submissive outside the bedroom, instead of in it. If they can recognise it and admit it and find someone that is willing to explore it... then you have a healthy, productive member of society, i.e. one of the "Strong" people. What do you think? Am I off subject?

[nabiliofadilio]

haha a little off subject but its not a bad thing
i totally agree with you now. perfect explanation
i understand everyone has some fetish
but rape or molestation is no fucking excuse
so i'm gonna have to say people who fulfill their urge by rape are not more needy, they are weak. iit doesn't matter what tramatic thing happened to them, i think if it really effected them they wouldn't want to have someone else go through it. and if they do they use the tramatic expirience as an excuse
BUT
maynard sings, and i can feel the need in his voice
which makes me totally re-think everything i just typed up there
shit now i'm lost
sorry

[chaotic_confusion]

I was watching a movie the other day that made me understand Prison Sex in an entirely new way. I can't remember the name of it though (forgot my pen, heh). I'll look into it and give you an explanation/interpretation soon.

EDIT: I remember now. It wasn't the entire movie, just a scene in specific (essentialy i turned it on half way through, so i could be mistaken as to how much of the movie applies). The movie was Dolores Claiborne, which was originally a Stephen King novel, and it tells the story of a woman who had supposedly murdered her husband, and more recently a woman who was living with her (which she was being prosecuted for). All in all the woman and her daughter have a lot of demons to work through, which the past reveals some chilling truths and events. I recomend the movie entirely. See it, if you get what i mean, discuss.

[nabiliofadilio]

ok thanks, i will definitely check it out

[Trelectron]

One of best songs Tool has ever written! the ambience and psychedelism is respected in all matters (im a big ambient music fan) and tool is one of very few bands in the world to blend ambience with their music in the right way, but this is a genuine rock song and it really ROCKS!!!! i dont have much to say about the lyrics, my friends above said it all.....

[chaotic_confusion]

indeed so. Welcome to the toolnavy, by the way.

[nabiliofadilio]

when i think of a song that summarizes what tool IS, i think of prison sex. a masterpiece

[chaotic_confusion]

i always thought, in an obviously more ironic sense, that Maynard's Dick was the Atypical Tool song, even though we didn't actually hear it until 2000, it always made me think that they wanted to let that out when it was recorded (even though, we're all fairly sure that at least one of the band members is trashed, haha). The song always kinda said to me "we're gunna be fucking with you for a long time" which reminds me further of a quote from Maynard at a concert in London in 1994 (the one where he has a fake "Fish 'n' Chips" tattoo), right after no quarter he says "here's the joke, are you ready? We're serious, jokes on you." <always cracks me up.

But all in all i could definitely see how your view applies to prison sex, perhaps for their darker material it's generally defining. Tool has a couple of "poster child" songs, i guess.

[nabiliofadilio]

oh yeah, theres definitely a couple more songs that summarize tool.
i guess it makes more sense to say prison sex summarizes undertow
aenema for anima
like that?

wanna know something sad? its a true story too
i can't get a hold of salival, i want it so badly.... i want to get it on ebay but can i trust the quality of it?

[chaotic_confusion]

i can't entirely give you an honest answer for that one... my brother and i won an auction for a dvd copy of salival on ebay, with a picture representing it as well, for $50, and he sent us a burned cd and dvd copy, and immedietly deleted the page for the auction afterwards, so there was no evidence against him (despite the fact that it's against seller policy to delete the auction).

[hushypushy]

Don't buy Salival on eBay unless it's really cheap and you're assured of actually getting it. And that is going to be the VERY rare auction.

You can download Salival anywhere, there are lossless rips of the DVD and the CD. It's great, for a fair price. If you can pay in the realm of the original cost ($40) then yeah, do it. I paid $26 for the VHS and it was well worth it even though I'll never watch the tape. But spending $150 or more on something that you can easily download and listen to?

I was really hoping that this year's April Fools joke would be the spontaneous re-release of Salival. That would've been hilarious.

[nabiliofadilio]

ok thanks. i would prefer the REAL thing ya know? but hey, i can't win all my battles huh?i guess i will download it. thanks again

[HelenA]

Salival is worth getting though. The live version of "Push It" is very cool. As is Maynard's Dick. LAMC is THE most annoying Tool song - although the drums are cool.

[nabiliofadilio]

seriously? whats so annoying about it? i haven't heard any of the salival songs.

[opiated]

"L.A.M.C." is fuckin' annoying. However, it's the easiest Tool song to play hands down: just pick up your phone and hit buttons like someone is shoving a drawer full of spoons up your ass.

I mean, you know, that's half the reason it wasn't on Ænima. That and there probably wasn't anywhere to put it on the whole album. I mean, you know, the whole idea of having that segue coming on after Ænema and then going into another segue, "(-) Ions," is just ... uggggh ... the thought kills my sperm and makes my balls shrivel into prunes.

[nabiliofadilio]

"L.A.M.C." is fuckin' annoying. However, it's the easiest Tool song to play hands down: just pick up your phone and hit buttons like someone is shoving a drawer full of spoons up your ass.

I mean, you know, that's half the reason it wasn't on Ænima. That and there probably wasn't anywhere to put it on the whole album. I mean, you know, the whole idea of having that segue coming on after Ænema and then going into another segue, "(-) Ions," is just ... uggggh ... the thought kills my sperm and makes my balls shrivel into prunes.

well oh my.. that was ehhh descriptive... haha
whats it sound like?

[Freemena]

"L.A.M.C." is fuckin' annoying. However, it's the easiest Tool song to play hands down: just pick up your phone and hit buttons like someone is shoving a drawer full of spoons up your ass.

I mean, you know, that's half the reason it wasn't on Ænima. That and there probably wasn't anywhere to put it on the whole album. I mean, you know, the whole idea of having that segue coming on after Ænema and then going into another segue, "(-) Ions," is just ... uggggh ... the thought kills my sperm and makes my balls shrivel into prunes.

I like the decription... rather appropriate for a thread on raping an innocent lamb and martyr to get your kicks. That may not have been what Opiated had intended, but provides a good segway back to Prision Sex, hehe. Shivel, Balls, Shrivel! LOL And have a good day and thank you for flying.

[ASnakeForEveryEden]

prison makes a man lonely .. it's about fighting off the loneliness .. even if it means getting pummeled from behind .. selling ur soul to feel alive .. anal sex, ladies?

[Freemena]

You seem to have something on the brain, Snake. May your lonlieness not overcome you.

[Romeda]

"Show me something
Thought I could make it end
Thought I could wash the stains away
Thought I could break the circle if I
Slipped right into your skin
So sweet was your surrender
We have become one
I have become my terror
And you my precious lamb and martyr"


I'm really confused with what this is. These are not the lyrics of Prison Sex. At least I don't think so! Is this your interpretation or something? I just don't get what you're talking about.

[Freemena]

It's the O.T.R.M. (On The Road Mix) version of the lyrics. I've never heard them, just read them, but they fit very nicely with the song. I would kill to hear it live. See the lyrics section of the site.

[nabiliofadilio]

thye do fit pefectly with the song. i wish it was the actual official lyrics but whatever

[angelomorf]

took me years and once sitting on the bus and leting thisone quiet laud to echo in my head(without any electronical support) when i could embrace the suture flewently...and since i take tool as a tool and i use its universal subtools such as lirycs/speach to my own purposes i think thisone maybe tries to overcomunicate an archtipyk wich is noncommunicatable...becouse if you want to get not scarred by the boogiwoman you have to be quiet...passiveaggresivebullshit...

[Eulogy33]

prison sex....is the shit! =)

[nabiliofadilio]

prison sex....is the shit! =)

such deep thoughts!

[Freemena]

Haha! I wonder if he read the preceeding discussion...

[nabiliofadilio]

i dooooon't think so

[angelomorf]

me nEither...and perhaps he is she...just discovering that she can say MALKOVICHMALKOVICH...

[Resolution]

I'm really confused with what this is. These are not the lyrics of Prison Sex. At least I don't think so! Is this your interpretation or something? I just don't get what you're talking about.

side B

[PShepherd11]

Salival is worth getting though. The live version of "Push It" is very cool. As is Maynard's Dick. LAMC is THE most annoying Tool song - although the drums are cool.

Salival is definitely worth getting. It's good I bought it when it came out...people are making some crazy money on eBay for it these days. I have two copies and I'd never sell them.

LAMC is funny, I never really thought of it as annoying though.

Sorry Freemena, back to your discussion...Prison Sex is the shit and I hear what you're saying...just don't feel like adding anything beyond that at the moment.

[Cheesegreater]

I think this thread sums up how uncomfortable it is for people to discuss Prison Sex. I mean I think I'd rather discuss the Salival release over cycles of sexual abuse.

[Freemena]

I think this thread sums up how uncomfortable it is for people to discuss Prison Sex. I mean I think I'd rather discuss the Salival release over cycles of sexual abuse.

I actually think it is more than just about sexual abuse. In many ways it is about longing, desire, need... I mean you could use it as a metaphor for any craving, really. That is what I ultimately take out of the song... massive desire for something you know is wrong.

[Cheesegreater]

I actually think it is more than just about sexual abuse. In many ways it is about longing, desire, need... I mean you could use it as a metaphor for any craving, really. That is what I ultimately take out of the song... massive desire for something you know is wrong.

Pretty much sums it up for me. I think it's easy to see how these lyrics allude to child sexual abuse though. It's definitely about having an overwhelming desire to do something that is terribly wrong.

"It took so long to remember just what happened.
I was so young and vestal then,
you know it hurt me."

These lines seem to imply the sexual abuse I speak of. It's not like it has to be about that, but it really seems to point that direction. When a child is abused sexually they often repress the memory, and it can take a long time for your mind to "let" you remember something like that.

"I've got my hands bound,
my head down, my eyes closed,
and my throat wide open."

We could tip-toe around the issue and say this is all metaphor or some kind of analogy, but it seems more obvious here.

"Show me something
Thought I could make it end
Thought I could wash the stains away
Thought I could break the circle if I
Slipped right into your skin
So sweet was your surrender
We have become one
I have become my terror
And you my precious lamb and martyr" (On The Road Mix)

In the beginning of the song he seems to be speaking from the point of view of the victim. Now the roles have reversed. He is now having someone surrender to himself instead of the other way around. Instead of breaking the circle like he thought he would, he came round full circle in becoming that which was his terror (the abuser.)

"I've come round full circle.
My lamb and martyr, this will be over soon.
You look so precious."

Why do you think he says lamb and martyr? Obviously something has been sacrificed by the victim. I happen to think the sacrifice was innocence (virginity) or whatever you want to call it. Something was sacrificed. This is the desire that eats away at the person telling the story, the sacrifice. There is some kind of comfort he finds in taking away from someone what was once taken from him. It's almost as if he looks at this act as a way of getting even.

When he refers to finding sanity in this "Shit, blood, and cum on my hands." you see the true scope of how troubled this person is. Other things that seem to indicate a child being involved is the way he talks about the person. "My sweet lamb and martyr." seems to refer to innocence.

I have never participated in sodomy, but I imagine it's less traumatizing to a full-grown gay male. Even if it's painful the first time, I imagine they wouldn't feel mortally threatened. "I'm breathing so I guess I'm still alive. Even if signs seem to tell me otherwise." sounds like confusion about the whole thing. Like "What just happened?" "That person really hurt me." "Did they love me?" "He had to know that hurt me." The whole feeling of the song seems to imply that the other person didn't feel confident about doing that deed in the first place. It's as if there was manipulation that took place. I think that the adult of this song knows full well of the manipulation that happened to him as a child. As an adult he knows he was being manipulated, and now he continues in the tradition of preying on an unsuspecting person.

To me, this is undoubtedly Tool's darkest and most controversial song. It's about extremely negative cycles perpetuated by insatiable desires. I feel it's about knowing beyond a shadow of any doubt that what you're doing is wrong, but feeling you will not be whole unless you act upon this desire. The answer is not in coming full circle; it's in breaking that cycle. Sadly, in this case, he fails, and we are left to wonder if the cycle will ever be broken. Perhaps in doing this act he's planted a seed both physically and metaphorically in the victim for a host of psychological problems which in turn could lead to it all happening again.

This of course is all just my opinion, but I feel this is what this song is about. I could really go out on a limb and say that furthermore I believe the two characters in this song are related, but that is all for now.

[nabiliofadilio]

that was great, you said everything i thought but couldn't put into words.
the rapist definitley wants the victim to feel pain, kinda like a transfer.
the rapist has this pain, longing, and he releases onto some innocent victim. but the pain doesn't transfer, he just has to keep doing again and again.

[angelomorf]

if we strech the semantical horizont of the term sexual abuse than maybe it is about it..
but if we stick to the literal meaning of the term sexual abuse then it is not about it...
for me the clearer is the meaphor that the sociaty creats about the parent child relationship...of course from this direction it still has something to do with sexual abuse but i think it is rather the psichosexual abuse that is close to this...
in reality i think it has nothing to do with sexuality couse in most cases ppl are not having sex with their donors...or at least let us take it as an ethalon...it is about the fake ideas that we got from our parents or the society...
we look up to our elderlyes like abraham did on the hill, we expect them to be omnipotent, we folow their rules like its the law of the universe...and at some point in our lives we got dissapointed...we figure out that they are just humans...and then comes the problem of forgiving...we can get really angry when we figure out that our valhalla is just full of things that is only important to us...and we are back to the good old vulnerability part...which is:noone knows what is happening...and of course it is up to us to figure it out...
so i think as a thinker(whatever it means in this sekt)that this song is more about the abuse of psicho sexuality then about actual sexual horrasment...
ps.: the leather boots metaphor is really clever...whit that thing you can achieve nearly anithing..even in birocracy...and you donteven need to be sexually abused meanwhile...

[Ghostwriter]

I was watching a movie the other day that made me understand Prison Sex in an entirely new way. I can't remember the name of it though (forgot my pen, heh).

Does that movie happen to be Harry Potter? Haha, just kidding. -Oh a wise guy eh?!

[Ghostwriter]

I actually think it is more than just about sexual abuse. In many ways it is about longing, desire, need... I mean you could use it as a metaphor for any craving, really. That is what I ultimately take out of the song... massive desire for something you know is wrong.

I think its about how a human reacts to being wronged by repeating that same action upon another. "full circle" (Prison Sex).

[mkean]

I never took it for more than a song about....well....prison sex. Interesting ideas you have, but Undertow never seemed to be a spiritual album to me. I think this song was before those days. Cravings? Yes, the cravings of a rapist mayhaps. Seeing the video is creepy as hell, especially in the end where the little doll holds up its hand (only to have it held down).

[GlenialP]

Wrong, yet a desire that constantly haunts you... Kind of like Pauls "thorn in his side" from the Bible... It's what keeps you seeking for a way to rid it, yet it's there to show you are human...

[Aezarien]

I can see where a sexual abuse theme would seem like the obvious interpretation. Respectfully, there is one fundamental flaw in that theory. It is a rational conclusion based on rational thinking. There is a reason why we sit dumbfounded in an image such as this song creates. We don't understand how people can do the things they do because our thought patterns, for the most part, are reasonable and rational. People who get off on sexual abuse and child molestation missed the bus somewhere with the rational thought and they are on a different mode of transportation altogether. While those of us on planet earth are thinking there is something inherently wrong with these people, they truly believe that they are justified in their actions. The reasons and routes vary but all roads lead to the same place. Abusers do not see themselves as we see them. Some even believe that their reality is a normal course of life and do not understand why other people view them as such monsters. In the case of victims repeating behaviors acted out upon them, especially by family members or people they have a strong emotional bond to, some even find their actions as a way of showing love to their victims because that is how daddy showed his love for them.

As a projection of my own reality of course, this song feels more metaphorical. It's almost like the worst thing one person could imagine happening to them was picked for a metaphor for the loss of personal control you feel when you are constantly fucked with for a long period of time. It is very human to want to hurt others the way you have been hurt in order to regain a sense of control in your own life. And it does not necessarily have to be the person who hurt you. Sometimes when the anger and frustration has been pent up for so long some people are prone to take out their issues on innocent parties just to get it out of their system. It is easy to get caught up in this type of behavior when the original aggressor is unavailable or is too intimidating to confront. From this perspective the lamb and martyr would be that person or people who is or are less intimidating. These are the ones we view as weaker and less defenseless than ourselves and therefore not a threat to us while we are trying to regain the sense of control we lost through altercation with the original aggressor. I can find no better metaphor to explain this pattern of behavior. It's almost like saying, "I'm tired of taking it up the ass. It's time to give a little bit back.". I'm not saying that this is a wise way to deal with your issues but it is a very common and very human behavioral pattern.

[nabiliofadilio]

i feel dumb after your post
that was great!
when i think about it, your right, people that do that stuff most of the time think its justified, but what about they people feel guilt after commiting a crime such as rape?

oh and Aezarien,
did you study up on this or are you just gifted by birth?

[Aezarien]

Ouch! No feeling dumb allowed! Truth be told, I have no formal education in psychology. I just have a weird obsession with human behavior and enjoy discussing my own theories. In essence, I have no clue what I am talking about. I do appreciate the exceptional compliments though.

I considered the guilt element but this is where I think things become a little ambiguous. In order to feel guilt or remorse for your actions toward another person you would have to realize what you have done has unjustifiably injured another person. You would have to see them as a victim rather than, for example, a willing participant or someone who deserved what they got. I have to wonder with chronic offenders if any guilt they feel after an offense is a genuine attempt to sympathize with the victim or rather part of some self-loathing ritual brought on by society's view of their actions.

[nabiliofadilio]

haha, i see. well just so you know, you'd be a damn good psychologist in my opinion.
yeah i didn't think about that. if they feel guilt then they can't feel justified.

once someone has learned a certain way, can they ever change how they think? if they feel like their actions are justified, could someone ever show them the way most of us think (that rape is horrible, ect.) ?

also, how can anyone do the right thing if there is a chance that their morals are wrong? like, i have heard people who kill babies so they don't have to live in such a bad neighborhood, they feel like they are doing the right thing, but most people think its wrong. whats right, whats wrong? and how could we ever know?

sorry for asking questions to you like you know all the answers in the world
its just your opinions are making sense to me. sorry

[Aezarien]

I apologize for the delay in answering. I just haven't been able to sit still long enough today to respond with any coherence and I am on my way to bed here in a moment. My computer stays on 24/7 so if it says I am online I am usually in and out and checking in periodically.

I am interested to hear what you think on the topic however. It's all subjective so there really are no wrong answers.

[nabiliofadilio]

hey, no problem i understand.
i'm gonna sound a like an idiot just so ya know

[gabe_angelfire]

I apologize for the delay in answering. I just haven't been able to sit still long enough today to respond with any coherence and I am on my way to bed here in a moment. My computer stays on 24/7 so if it says I am online I am usually in and out and checking in periodically.

I am interested to hear what you think on the topic however. It's all subjective so there really are no wrong answers.

^^^^^this genius is my big sister :O)

And I think this song is about child abuse, sexual or otherwise.

[nabiliofadilio]

well get her to come on and talk with us!

[Cheesegreater]

Ouch! No feeling dumb allowed! Truth be told, I have no formal education in psychology. I just have a weird obsession with human behavior and enjoy discussing my own theories. In essence, I have no clue what I am talking about. I do appreciate the exceptional compliments though.

I considered the guilt element but this is where I think things become a little ambiguous. In order to feel guilt or remorse for your actions toward another person you would have to realize what you have done has unjustifiably injured another person. You would have to see them as a victim rather than, for example, a willing participant or someone who deserved what they got. I have to wonder with chronic offenders if any guilt they feel after an offense is a genuine attempt to sympathize with the victim or rather part of some self-loathing ritual brought on by society's view of their actions.

You do have a knack for studying human behavior. I've got to hand it to you. I was especially interested in the last thing you said. I too wonder if they feel guilt or not. This self-loathing you speak of though, I must say, sounds a lot like guilt, whether brought on by society or some other way. I would classify self-loathing as a form of guilt. Self-loathing tends to be brought on by actions you feel are unjustifiable. If one feels they've done an unjustifiable wrong action, they'll certainly feel guilty. Also, when someone engages in something terrible that they cannot justify, there is little left to do but hate the self. Am I right?

Chronic offenders live a tortured life, or at least they should. A lot of them have unimaginable psychological problems. The way I feel about it is there are monsters, and people with monsters on their backs. The ones with monsters on their backs, well whatever ounce of good left in them tortures the self as if to try to kill the monster. Think of serial killers killing themselves. Maybe that one ounce of good in them realized, "Hey, I don't think I can stop. Those were good people. I've got to end this the only way I think I can."

Really interesting posts Aezarien. ;) Maybe you'll be a behavioral psychologist yet!

[uummm..nocoolnames]

my two cents,

a while back, nabiliofadilio, you asked how can we know when an act is right or wrong.
i think theres no concrete answer, its up to a persons conscience, and his ability to see what they have done. not everyone thinks the same way because not everyone lives the same way, and their point of view is affected by that. we don't really know what the "norm" for human behavior is, execpt by popular consensus. we have to go by what the goverment tells is "right" or "wrong", at least until we delve deeper into the human psyche, and i doubt we'll ever get to that point.

cheesegreater, i think when someone enegages in an act to terrible to justify, they have to be psychotic, at least on some level, because if they dont feel the need to justify it, they dont feel guilt or self loathing. if you find some way, no matter how irrational,to justify the act then i would say you most certainly do feel guilt or some self loathing.

going back to right and wrong, a person may not see something as needing to be justified because, in their mind, thier action was right, there is nothing to be justified. if you feel the need to justify, somewhere, deep down, you know the act you commited was wrong

god its nice to have a talk that doesnt reach into the metaphysical every once i a while

just to clarify, i to am not a behavioral pyschologist either, i just think to much

[gabe_angelfire]

This song seems to me like many of Tools earliest songs... and I could be totally wrong on this one but... it always appreared to me that he's saying "I'm not keeping this fucking secret any more, I'm not going to be the only one suffering anymore, I'm going to tell the entire world what you've done and rob you of the power that YOU and WHAT YOU DID holds over me."

The first half of the song appears to be written from the child's perspective. It appears to me that the child was abused and manipulated into thinking that their abuser couldn't help doing what they were doing. There is always an implicit agreement that the secret between the abuser and the abused will always remain intact.

------------------

The second half is the same person now an adult, who is exposing the abuser for what they really are.

*Do unto you now what has been done to me. (MY turn to fuck YOU in the ass. I'm going to tell everyone what you did.)

*I need you to feel this. I need this to make me whole. (I can't get over what happened until I get you back for what you did to me. I need you to HURT too or this will eat me alive.)

*For I am your witness that blood and flesh can be trusted. (I trusted you with the innocence of a child... and you transgressed that trust. *Sarcasm* You can trust me not to tell the world what you've done... like I trusted you.)

*And only this one holy medium brings me piece of mind. (Only writing and singing about this gets it out of my fucking head and makes me feel better. My sweet revenge.)

*Got YOUR hands bound, YOUR head down, YOUR eyes closed. YOU look so precious now. (How does it feel? I'm in control now. You are powerless as I expose the world to what kind of monster you really are. I am fucking YOU in the ass now buddy)

*I have found some kind of temporary sanity in this shit blood and cum on my hands. (By acknowledging what happened, facing it, nasty and horriffic as it was - I'm slowly facing this for what is really is. The GRAPHIC nature of this line is pure honesty, and it's ownership. Ownership takes the power away. You know how a girl can refer to herself as a bitch. Nasty powerful words are only powerful when used against you. When you take ownership of something that is potentially painful to you, you can strip it of its power over you.)

*I've come round full circle* (You used this to hurt me when I was defenseless and now I'm strong and I'm going to destroy you with it.)

*My lamb and martyr, this will be over soon. You look so precious. (*sarcasm* How do you like being in my position buddy? You thought I'd take this secret to the grave. You're a frail old man now, defenseless as I was as a child in your old age. You thought you'd die with this secret and no one would know what you really are. Poor thing, boo fucking hoo)

...Yeah, I have a degree in psychology :O) Not that it really helped in my interpretation though.

[ahhnevermind]

Great discussion on these lyrics so far.
However, I think there is too much emphasis on the Sex and not enough on the "Prison". I find this song very touching - It seems to be not intentionally about child abuse, but rather a very successful attempt by Maynard to sympathize with perhaps the most loathed individual in society - the prison inmate raping another inmate.

Existence in prison is one of continual rape. Everything in your environment, from the pacing guards overhead to the cold cement underneath - bleeds its power over you, shits on you, tells you every morning that you are nothing but an animal.

This brutal reality, imposed on the prisoner every day, contradicts everything his body and mind tell him - that he is an individual, complete with memories of his mother and his favorite music, etc. The prisoner thus carries around this endless conflict. When your environment tells you reality is the opposite of what you perceive to be reality, that's when you start feeling insane, that's when you start going insane.

Eventually, there is nothing to do but seek release from this torment, however you can. To do this, you do unto others what has been done to you, in a desperate attempt to transfer this disease to someone else. The prisoner, raped every minute of his life, starts looking for a victim. This is the psychological motivation.


The dark truth, of course, is that this horrible act is the same kind that got you into prison in the first place, and that you have in this way been in prison your whole life, doomed to reflect pain back at the world. Because of this truth, there is only a temporary release from the pain, a temporary sanity, and that is in the physical loss of memory, the physical release of power within the orgasm.


And therein you come full circle - your life as a prisoner is one in which you constantly reaffirm through your brutality the accusations of society, the very ones that brought you here, the very ones that leave you here, alone with nothing but your endless conflict and your demons, staring at the newcomers.

[gabe_angelfire]

I want to agree with you ^^^ but this song seems intensly personal to me. Yes the title is Prison Sex... but if I were sodomized (or actually I don't think it has to be sodomy... my stepmom beat the shit out of me and I CAN FEEL THIS SONG as a victim of child abuse) If I were the one who wrote this song... as a child I would feel like nothing but a gaping hole... and my transgressor would be nothing but a criminal fucking me in the ass. A criminal that deserves to be in jail having HIS ass fucked!

*I'm treading water, I need to sleep a while.* That's how you would feel if you decided to repress a memory of something horriffic. Let me just close my eyes and not be here!

*It took so long to remember just what happened. I was so young and vestal then, you know it hurt me, but I'm breathing so I guess I'm still alive even if signs seem to tell me otherwise. (I'm just now coming to terms what happened to me and GOD I might be breathing inside but I feel dead. The reality of this suffocates me.)

[gabe_angelfire]

And to address the road mix lyrics:

Show me something (Like remorse motherfucker)

Thought I could make it end, Thought I could wash the stains away, Thought I could break the circle if I Slipped right into your skin (I thought that facing this and doing the unthinkable *telling the whole fucking world that you did this to me* would make me feel better. I thought that lowering myself to your level and trashing you for the world to see/hear would make me feel better.)

So sweet was your surrender (I got no reaction from you, not the reaction I expected)

We have become one, I have become my terror (I lowered myself to your level by striking out with viciousness, and for some reason I hate myself for it... *because that's how the cycle goes unfortunately.... you don't get repreive as an abuse victim, no matter what you do, you are always a victim.*)

And you my precious lamb and martyr (*sarcasm* I came out and told the world and now you are playing the victim, how fucking nice.)

[nabiliofadilio]

i see a lot of sense in ahhnevermind's interpretation, the song is called prison sex after all.
but i also see gabe_angelfire's reasoning too. this is a really personal song, and some of the lyrics bring to mind how i think a kid would feel in the situation.
i think maynard used this song (as usual) to give just a genral idea and what we are doing is finding all the things that the song does mean. songs don't always have one meaning

oh, and uummm..nocoolnames, more like your 25cents! (haha yes, 'm fucking hilarious, i know) do you think there is like a universal right and wrong?
i guess its like religion, we will never know who's right until we die.

[ahhnevermind]

^^^ But what about the main focus of the song - do unto others what has been done to me. The desire to be the sadist/rapist? If this were personal (which I dont doubt) then it is a very dark personal recognition not just of the abuse but the corruptive effect that abuse has had. If we agree on this point, we agree - it doesn't have to be a stranger nor a physical prison, those are metaphors for emotional states and power relations.

EDIT: Re-reading your post, I don't think we disagree at all. The cycle of corruption inherent to violence is the topic. It most certainly IS personal, he clearly is able to sympathize, actually empathize, with this prisoner because he has experienced this metaphor - the only real difference in our wording is whether maynard set out in a literary mode (i.e. "I will try to get inside the head of a prisoner", only to discover a connection) or a poetic mode (i.e. "I will try to express this emotion through metaphor").

And with all due respect to MJK, that's completely irrelevant.

[gabe_angelfire]

The way I interpreted the *do unto others* line was that so many abusers use the fact that they were abused to justify what they are doing. Was this adult justifying their actions in this manner?

I don't get a vibe from this song that the recprocation on behalf of the child is literally sexual. "Do unto others"- oh that was your excuse for hurting me as a child? Let me show you what I think about that *sarcasm* do unto others... I'll show you do unto others, you ruined my life and now it's my turn to ruin yours.

HOWEVER, I do agree with Nabiliofadilio that there are layers... which in that case we may ALL be right. I do believe that one of the purposes of the song is to get us thinking about and talking about a topic that we would rather ignore. It is SO easy to pretend that shit like sexual abuse doesn't happen.

[Aezarien]

Boy did this conversation blow up overnight lol. Reading.... contemplating... I'll be back!

[ahhnevermind]

HOWEVER, I do agree with Nabiliofadilio that there are layers... which in that case we may ALL be right. I do believe that one of the purposes of the song is to get us thinking about and talking about a topic that we would rather ignore. It is SO easy to pretend that shit like sexual abuse doesn't happen.


Agreed. and sadly, what makes this song repulsive to most people isn't the idea of child abuse - as they would not even get that far in analysis - but rather the idea of gay sex.

[gabe_angelfire]

I agree! ^^^

[gabe_angelfire]

This is encouraging, you guys are so awesome for having an intelligent discussion, for agreeing, and agreeing to disagree without starting a flame war! I'm new here but so many rooms I've gone into have been mean and ugly!

[uummm..nocoolnames]

oh, and uummm..nocoolnames, more like your 25cents! (haha yes, 'm fucking hilarious, i know) do you think there is like a universal right and wrong?
i guess its like religion, we will never know who's right until we die.

yeah, i did kinda ramble on, i get talkitive at 6:00 in the morning apparently

anyway, about universal right and wrong, well personally i don't think there is a standard, but if you believe in god or a higher power, i guess there is the standard of whatever your god or religion says is right or wrong. as for me, jury's still out on god or true religion, but i think if there is a higher power, it would let us make or own decisions on right and wrong, but thats just my personal view

you know, when i first heard this song, i thought it was maynard mocking people in prison, but know i see that the song has deeper, darker meanings

[Aezarien]

There is a lot to contend with here! I'm slightly if not completely ADHD so please excuse me while I shamelessly quote the points. It's purely organizational. I promise.

nabiliofadilio - I apologize for last night. I seriously wasn't trying to put you off. I thought I had a moment earlier but you know how it is when life calls. Anyway...

"how can anyone do the right thing if there is a chance that their morals are wrong? like, i have heard people who kill babies so they don't have to live in such a bad neighborhood, they feel like they are doing the right thing, but most people think its wrong. whats right, whats wrong? and how could we ever know?"

This is purely my subjective uneducated opinion on the subject matter and it concurs with what nocoolnames said here:

"i think theres no concrete answer..... not everyone thinks the same way because not everyone lives the same way, and their point of view is affected by that."

and here:
"...personally i don't think there is a standard..."

Right and wrong are merely subjective opinions based on the psychosocial environments we have been exposed to. We can't even count on those little feelings we have inside that determine individual right and wrong because these feelings are guided by our perceptions. If how we perceive something that gives us the little moral tingle changes then the physical part of our emotional response could change as well. Our system of morals, as it were, is constantly changing. Whether or not that is a good thing I hesitate to say.

In some cultures, much like in ours, to hurt a child is thought of as lowly and despicable. You even think about spanking your kid and you are a basket case that should be put in prison. Compared to the Spartan children however, our kids seem to have it made. In that time and culture babies that were thought to be unhealthy or weak were set upon a mountain side to starve to death or succumb to the elements. The healthy ones were reared and sent to camps at seven years old to go through rigorous training in preparation for life which was, until the age of 60, the military. During this training and as children they participated in brutal exercises in which loss of life was not only possible but occurred frequently. Nonetheless this militant way of life was what they found to be honorable, right, and just. Their culture also had some elements that would put our bible thumping society into a coma. The naked dancing in the street and wives taking on lovers not only for personal pleasure but to bear children with would be enough I am sure.

The aforementioned are all things that our moral majority not only frowns upon but they throw up pickets, riot, and have sit-downs over less. I don't care to have that type of society myself but I can't say the Spartans were wrong because maybe that is what the circumstances required of the people at that time.

I kind of went off into story-telling mode there for a minute so to ground myself and actually answer the question; We go with what we know and how that makes us feel. Change is possible but it takes knowledge, acceptance, and the right recipe of environmental variables for true change to occur. It takes the same for us to realize what things call for change and what things we need to leave to individual choice. In an ideal world every individual should choose for themselves. Some things however, especially those things that limit another individual's right to choose including taking advantage of those incapable of making rational decisions, should obviously be beyond an individual's scope of practice.

Did I ramble a little? lol

[uummm..nocoolnames]

This is encouraging, you guys are so awesome for having an intelligent discussion, for agreeing, and agreeing to disagree without starting a flame war! I'm new here but so many rooms I've gone into have been mean and ugly!

ironic considering this is one of tools most violent and ugly songs

[nabiliofadilio]

yeah, i did kinda ramble on, i get talkitive at 6:00 in the morning apparently

anyway, about universal right and wrong, well personally i don't think there is a standard, but if you believe in god or a higher power, i guess there is the standard of whatever your god or religion says is right or wrong. as for me, jury's still out on god or true religion, but i think if there is a higher power, it would let us make or own decisions on right and wrong, but thats just my personal view

you know, when i first heard this song, i thought it was maynard mocking people in prison, but know i see that the song has deeper, darker meanings

hahah no man, i don't mean you rambled! (i encourage rambling actually)
i said 25cents because your opinon was really good and 2cents usaully means a unimportant opinion and yours was a good opinion......


anyway. i don't have a religion so i don't have those rules to follow, and personally i think some religions "right and wrong" are comeplete bullshit.

hahah yeah, this song has some of darkest and deepest meaning of any song i know!

[nabiliofadilio]

This is encouraging, you guys are so awesome for having an intelligent discussion, for agreeing, and agreeing to disagree without starting a flame war! I'm new here but so many rooms I've gone into have been mean and ugly!

yeah! this is a good discussion, you guys are great to talk to

[nabiliofadilio]

There is a lot to contend with here! I'm slightly if not completely ADHD so please excuse me while I shamelessly quote the points. It's purely organizational. I promise.

nabiliofadilio - I apologize for last night. I seriously wasn't trying to put you off. I thought I had a moment earlier but you know how it is when life calls. Anyway...

"how can anyone do the right thing if there is a chance that their morals are wrong? like, i have heard people who kill babies so they don't have to live in such a bad neighborhood, they feel like they are doing the right thing, but most people think its wrong. whats right, whats wrong? and how could we ever know?"

This is purely my subjective uneducated opinion on the subject matter and it concurs with what nocoolnames said here:

"i think theres no concrete answer..... not everyone thinks the same way because not everyone lives the same way, and their point of view is affected by that."

and here:
"...personally i don't think there is a standard..."

Right and wrong are merely subjective opinions based on the psychosocial environments we have been exposed to. We can't even count on those little feelings we have inside that determine individual right and wrong because these feelings are guided by our perceptions. If how we perceive something that gives us the little moral tingle changes then the physical part of our emotional response could change as well. Our system of morals, as it were, is constantly changing. Whether or not that is a good thing I hesitate to say.

In some cultures, much like in ours, to hurt a child is thought of as lowly and despicable. You even think about spanking your kid and you are a basket case that should be put in prison. Compared to the Spartan children however, our kids seem to have it made. In that time and culture babies that were thought to be unhealthy or weak were set upon a mountain side to starve to death or succumb to the elements. The healthy ones were reared and sent to camps at seven years old to go through rigorous training in preparation for life which was, until the age of 60, the military. During this training and as children they participated in brutal exercises in which loss of life was not only possible but occurred frequently. Nonetheless this militant way of life was what they found to be honorable, right, and just. Their culture also had some elements that would put our bible thumping society into a coma. The naked dancing in the street and wives taking on lovers not only for personal pleasure but to bear children with would be enough I am sure.

The aforementioned are all things that our moral majority not only frowns upon but they throw up pickets, riot, and have sit-downs over less. I don't care to have that type of society myself but I can't say the Spartans were wrong because maybe that is what the circumstances required of the people at that time.

I kind of went off into story-telling mode there for a minute so to ground myself and actually answer the question; We go with what we know and how that makes us feel. Change is possible but it takes knowledge, acceptance, and the right recipe of environmental variables for true change to occur. It takes the same for us to realize what things call for change and what things we need to leave to individual choice. In an ideal world every individual should choose for themselves. Some things however, especially those things that limit another individual's right to choose including taking advantage of those incapable of making rational decisions, should obviously be beyond an individual's scope of practice.

Did I ramble a little? lol

no need to apologize! i understand comepletely. no worries!
hahaha there was some rambling in there but when people ramble they usually say something brilliant in the process!

morals do vary and change, i still can't help but wonder is there is a universal right and wrong. wouldn't that be crazy? if really the right thing to do was kill and survive and by joinging together people have sinned to some unknown god? hahaha wouldn't that screw with everybodies heads.

ok back to serious mode.
i believe that some people aren't capable of making moral decisions, but who am i to say? who is anyone to say? which gets me on the subject of some people thinking there morals are better than other people. THAT pisses me off.how do they know? hmm? arggg
do you know how many people have been killed because someone thought their morals were detter than the other's? lots. and it all was totally unnecassary. the sooner people realize that morals are personal, and they vary, the sooner we can get along with each other!

[nabiliofadilio]

The way I interpreted the *do unto others* line was that so many abusers use the fact that they were abused to justify what they are doing. Was this adult justifying their actions in this manner?

I don't get a vibe from this song that the recprocation on behalf of the child is literally sexual. "Do unto others"- oh that was your excuse for hurting me as a child? Let me show you what I think about that *sarcasm* do unto others... I'll show you do unto others, you ruined my life and now it's my turn to ruin yours.

HOWEVER, I do agree with Nabiliofadilio that there are layers... which in that case we may ALL be right. I do believe that one of the purposes of the song is to get us thinking about and talking about a topic that we would rather ignore. It is SO easy to pretend that shit like sexual abuse doesn't happen.

well than tool has done their job, this is one hell of a discussion

[Aezarien]

Cheesegreater - Just now sitting down again with this topic lol. I swear I am way to busy to talk as much as I do!


"This self-loathing you speak of though, I must say, sounds a lot like guilt, whether brought on by society or some other way. I would classify self-loathing as a form of guilt. Self-loathing tends to be brought on by actions you feel are unjustifiable. If one feels they've done an unjustifiable wrong action, they'll certainly feel guilty. Also, when someone engages in something terrible that they cannot justify, there is little left to do but hate the self. Am I right?"

Self-loathing can most definitely be brought on by feelings of guilt and that is where my main curiosity is focused. I wonder if those that do hate themselves sympathize with the pain they have caused others or because they can not fit in with society's perception of who they should be. In any case I think torturing oneself through guilt and self-loathing is a popular way to go as is rationalization and self-justification. Then there is self perpetuated amnesia but all any of it amounts to is avoidance.


"Chronic offenders live a tortured life, or at least they should. A lot of them have unimaginable psychological problems."

I agree with you in spirit. It is hard to believe that the majority of them are tortured when groups like NAMBLA (North American Man/Boy Love Association) exist. I agree with you and please excuse my frankness but grown men who get off on fucking little boys should live a tortured life in my less than humble opinion. I have a 13 year old son and the images it conjures makes me more than unqualified to give an unbiased opinion. That probably has a lot to do with why I choose to interpret the song metaphorically. Interpreting it any other way makes me think of removing someone's eyes with dental tools.


"The way I feel about it is there are monsters, and people with monsters on their backs."

Excellent metaphor and I agree 100%. What do you believe separates the monsters from the one's merely afflicted by the same?


"The ones with monsters on their backs, well whatever ounce of good left in them tortures the self as if to try to kill the monster. Think of serial killers killing themselves. Maybe that one ounce of good in them realized, "Hey, I don't think I can stop. Those were good people. I've got to end this the only way I think I can."

That makes complete sense. I question the motives for suicide but I don't doubt that profound realization has been a motive. I would see this being the case where someone had just "snapped" and when brought back to equilibrium couldn't live with what they did.

[Aezarien]

This song seems to me like many of Tools earliest songs... and I could be totally wrong on this one but... it always appreared to me that he's saying "I'm not keeping this fucking secret any more, I'm not going to be the only one suffering anymore, I'm going to tell the entire world what you've done and rob you of the power that YOU and WHAT YOU DID holds over me."

I can totally see this point of view as well.

[Aezarien]

Great discussion on these lyrics so far.
However, I think there is too much emphasis on the Sex and not enough on the "Prison". I find this song very touching - It seems to be not intentionally about child abuse, but rather a very successful attempt by Maynard to sympathize with perhaps the most loathed individual in society - the prison inmate raping another inmate.


In my interpretation I took the "Prison" part and incorporate it into the trapped feeling you have when you are enduring any type of abuse, neglect, or harassment.

I have enjoyed hearing everyone's point of view and have things I particularly like about each one. What I like about yours in particular is that it presents an unbiased interpretation that gives the writer credit for being a writer and not merely a vessel of spewing emotions.

[Aezarien]

morals do vary and change, i still can't help but wonder is there is a universal right and wrong. wouldn't that be crazy? if really the right thing to do was kill and survive and by joinging together people have sinned to some unknown god? hahaha wouldn't that screw with everybodies heads.

I think years of bred in deity worshiping and subsequent bible thumping creates that feeling in the "moral" majority. It is the true voice that speaks and tells us to pray when we think we are going to suffer badly or die. For some people believing in a higher power gives them comfort and security. The concept for me only serves to make me feel like I am being fucked with. I can make more of my life believing that this is the last stop and I only have one chance to get it right. I admit I hear that voice occasionally but would give anything to make it go away.



i believe that some people aren't capable of making moral decisions, but who am i to say? who is anyone to say? which gets me on the subject of some people thinking there morals are better than other people. THAT pisses me off.how do they know? hmm? arggg
do you know how many people have been killed because someone thought their morals were detter than the other's? lots. and it all was totally unnecassary. the sooner people realize that morals are personal, and they vary, the sooner we can get along with each other!

Some people are incapable of making moral decisions. In the end however, morals are only defined by what it takes to compromise them and to loosely quote from a conversation Gabe and I recently had, Everything has a price. We may not be able to fathom that price in our current state of perception but it is there. The hope is that we never have to cross that bridge. As far as people defining morals for you, they just need a hobby, or therapy, or a wake up call, or to get over themselves, or a Twizzler (I'll just die if they quit making these things). Either way, if they are focused on you then that is a fine indication that they are avoiding issues of their own and picking on you takes the focus off their own shit. They don't deserve to own you in anger for even a moment.

[gabe_angelfire]

In my interpretation I took the "Prison" part and incorporate it into the trapped feeling you have when you are enduring any type of abuse, neglect, or harassment.



I never thought about it like that but you are so right!!!

Man/Boy Love Association *ROTFLMFAO* :'D
That's not right!

[nabiliofadilio]

[QUOTE=Aezarien;2054720]In my interpretation I took the "Prison" part and incorporate it into the trapped feeling you have when you are enduring any type of abuse, neglect, or harassment. [QUOTE]

i never thought about it that way either. it makes perfect sense though!

[nabiliofadilio]

I think years of bred in deity worshiping and subsequent bible thumping creates that feeling in the "moral" majority. It is the true voice that speaks and tells us to pray when we think we are going to suffer badly or die. For some people believing in a higher power gives them comfort and security. The concept for me only serves to make me feel like I am being fucked with. I can make more of my life believing that this is the last stop and I only have one chance to get it right. I admit I hear that voice occasionally but would give anything to make it go away.

what you said is exactly how i feel about the subject! i know what you mean, i hate organized religion, or at least the organized religion we have today. all these belifs are forced on us and we are looked down upon for thinking another way. no matter how much i'm against it though occasionally theres a voice in my head that says "what if they are right, and i am gonna burn in some hell?"
then i start thinking clearly and remind myself that my life and "afterlife" is what i make it to be. not what a mass religion makes it to be. religion is personal, not shared.




Some people are incapable of making moral decisions. In the end however, morals are only defined by what it takes to compromise them and to loosely quote from a conversation Gabe and I recently had, Everything has a price. We may not be able to fathom that price in our current state of perception but it is there. The hope is that we never have to cross that bridge. As far as people defining morals for you, they just need a hobby, or therapy, or a wake up call, or to get over themselves, or a Twizzler (I'll just die if they quit making these things). Either way, if they are focused on you then that is a fine indication that they are avoiding issues of their own and picking on you takes the focus off their own shit. They don't deserve to own you in anger for even a moment.

you are right. i just wish those people would leave me alone. do i bother them with my beliefs? NOOOOO!

oh damn, i just got the best idea.!!!!
next time i see someone that has tried to force their religion on me, or looked down on me, i'm going to make up my own religion and tell them they should belive in it or they are definitley going to my religions hell. i will down on them as they have looked down on me!
hahahahahahahahaha i wonder how someone who has always thought that their beliefs were better and that they need to force it on people will feel when i do exactly that to them. i bet they won't like it, but i doubt they will have the sense to realize they do the same damn thing.

woah, that was a little ranty, sorry

and your right, twizzlers are magical

[uummm..nocoolnames]

ive grown up in a catholic household, and my mom is a devout catholic, and ive had 17 years of "god" and "jesus" shoved down my throat, and ive come to a realization that the more you force religion upon someone, the more they grow to hate it. ive even gone to catholic schools all my life, which has only fueled my resent. the funny thing is, im a fairly nice person to most people, and ive gotten several "best christian" awards through the years,wich i always thought was ironic. to me it seems these people dont think of good people as just good people, we have to be "good christians" to good people."god" forbid a nice person be something other than christian. i still dont see how as evolved as a race that we are cant let go of silly little beliefs that are there to keep away the fear of death.
to quote lewis black "i have thoughts, and that can really fuck up the faith thing, just ask any catholic priest"

wow, i did a little bit of rant to, religion does that to people

and to clarify, although i grew up catholic, i was never raped by a priest, because i swear to you, had i been raped, they wouldve never found every piece of the body, and i would be sitting in a jail sell with no remorse what so every

[Aezarien]

nabiliofadilio - I always treat people of faith with the utmost respect and kindness unless they get belligerent with me. It isn't because I agree with them or even that I think they deserve my respect. It is to show them that I don't need their belief system to be a good person. I invite them in for coffee and listen to every word they say and smile. Then I share what I believe and thank them for caring enough to stop by and share some time with me. Believe it or not it really fucks most of them up when you are nice to them. I do think some weird shit while they are talking though I have to admit. "Yeah sure, come on in. I'll set up the risk board. It's a world domination game so you should pick up on it pretty easy being church-goin' folks and all."

Your idea cracks me up though. What would you name your religion and what would be your first commandment?

[Aezarien]

and to clarify, although i grew up catholic, i was never raped by a priest

nocoolnames - You guys are so funny! I would have never made that connection but I appreciate the clarification.

My childhood was rather chaotic and we had no real fundamental belief system. Mom always talked about her belief in G*d but we didn't go to church or pray regularly even. Where we live however there is a church within walking distance of almost anywhere you could live. If there is too much mileage between churches they throw up double-wides and turn them into churches. With that type of frequency it is almost impossible for you not to absorb something.

My husband however has not only one but two parents that are Pentecostal ministers. When he was younger he was a youth group leader. When I first met him his attitude toward religion was volatile. If you even mentioned religion that was grounds for verbal abuse. He hated it and didn't want to hear about it.

My kids did a stint in church. They wanted to go and I am a firm believer that you can't make an informed decision if you don't have all of the information. That was short-lived to say the least. We have had rational discussions about how they feel about things they have heard in church but I don't discuss my beliefs with my children. I just don't think they can develop their own intuition if I tell them what they should believe.

[Aezarien]

and your right, twizzlers are magical

So are Carvel Ice-cream cakes. They are what happy tastes like.

[PShepherd11]

So are Carvel Ice-cream cakes. They are what happy tastes like.

I agree. They are very yummy.

[Cheesegreater]

Cheesegreater - Just now sitting down again with this topic lol. I swear I am way to busy to talk as much as I do!


"This self-loathing you speak of though, I must say, sounds a lot like guilt, whether brought on by society or some other way. I would classify self-loathing as a form of guilt. Self-loathing tends to be brought on by actions you feel are unjustifiable. If one feels they've done an unjustifiable wrong action, they'll certainly feel guilty. Also, when someone engages in something terrible that they cannot justify, there is little left to do but hate the self. Am I right?"

Self-loathing can most definitely be brought on by feelings of guilt and that is where my main curiosity is focused. I wonder if those that do hate themselves sympathize with the pain they have caused others or because they can not fit in with society's perception of who they should be. In any case I think torturing oneself through guilt and self-loathing is a popular way to go as is rationalization and self-justification. Then there is self perpetuated amnesia but all any of it amounts to is avoidance.


"Chronic offenders live a tortured life, or at least they should. A lot of them have unimaginable psychological problems."

I agree with you in spirit. It is hard to believe that the majority of them are tortured when groups like NAMBLA (North American Man/Boy Love Association) exist. I agree with you and please excuse my frankness but grown men who get off on fucking little boys should live a tortured life in my less than humble opinion. I have a 13 year old son and the images it conjures makes me more than unqualified to give an unbiased opinion. That probably has a lot to do with why I choose to interpret the song metaphorically. Interpreting it any other way makes me think of removing someone's eyes with dental tools.


"The way I feel about it is there are monsters, and people with monsters on their backs."

Excellent metaphor and I agree 100%. What do you believe separates the monsters from the one's merely afflicted by the same?


"The ones with monsters on their backs, well whatever ounce of good left in them tortures the self as if to try to kill the monster. Think of serial killers killing themselves. Maybe that one ounce of good in them realized, "Hey, I don't think I can stop. Those were good people. I've got to end this the only way I think I can."

That makes complete sense. I question the motives for suicide but I don't doubt that profound realization has been a motive. I would see this being the case where someone had just "snapped" and when brought back to equilibrium couldn't live with what they did.

Thanks for the response. I like how people are drawing different interpretations and they all make sense to some degree. Angelfire, I read and thoroughly enjoyed your posts, but I think I might disagree with you slightly on the intent of this song. You seem to think that this song is about sweet revenge. I wish it was so, but I get the distinct feeling that this song is about a vicious cycle of psychological scarring.

I agree with everyone who says this is a subject most wish to ignore, and it's easy to put it out of mind. I don't know the statistics, but a lot of people who were sexually abused as a child have a higher likelihood of being a molester. I don't know how it works, or what psychological processes happen that make it 'ok' in their head to do such an act, but the fact is the victim can easily become the victimizer. Personally, I think this is what the song is sharing with us.

I think this is a sympathetic song in some ways. Sympathy for that vicious cycle, not the perpetrator. I think our natural tendency is to steep this song in metaphor, but I think the graphic nature of this song is pretty straight-forward. Look at it as the journey of a molester. What led him to becoming what he is now, a monster, right? Well, I perceive this song as showing the human side of a 'monster' that most wouldn't care to know. I other words, we want to label these people, and just think of them these horrible, sick monsters, when in reality there is a story behind all of it that explains their actions. Keep in mind I said 'explains' their actions, not 'justifies' them.

I think the main goal of a song like this is just what we're seeing on this forum. Get people talking about these things. They're still there no matter how hard you try to ignore them.

[uummm..nocoolnames]

I think the main goal of a song like this is just what we're seeing on this forum. Get people talking about these things. They're still there no matter how hard you try to ignore them.

woah, i just drew a connection through the tool albums (opiate and salival excluded). in each album, theres a song that, to me at least, is dragging a fault of our societies way of life, and how we kind of sweep things under the rug.

1. prison sex- child abuse,molestation, other forms of domestic abuse.
2 stinkfist- a growing need for more to feel, every sensation is getting old, so we must dig deeper
3 the grudge-(a tentative link)how we embrace revenge, and stereotypes
4 vicariuos- our addiction to violence and the idiot box

this was kind of a sudden revalation, and these are just my views on the songs, but to me tool is trying to get us to discuss these elephants in the living room.

and thus we are :)

[uummm..nocoolnames]

actually, i guess you could say opiate (the song) is about how we let religion control or lives and points of view, maybe

[nabiliofadilio]

nabiliofadilio - I always treat people of faith with the utmost respect and kindness unless they get belligerent with me. It isn't because I agree with them or even that I think they deserve my respect. It is to show them that I don't need their belief system to be a good person. I invite them in for coffee and listen to every word they say and smile. Then I share what I believe and thank them for caring enough to stop by and share some time with me. Believe it or not it really fucks most of them up when you are nice to them. I do think some weird shit while they are talking though I have to admit. "Yeah sure, come on in. I'll set up the risk board. It's a world domination game so you should pick up on it pretty easy being church-goin' folks and all."

Your idea cracks me up though. What would you name your religion and what would be your first commandment?

hahahahahahahahahahahahaha RISK..... hahahaha damn that was hilarious!
i don't have the patience for listening to them babble on about jesus and such, i don't know how you do it.

The religion shall be named "Toolothic" named so by our great god "Maynardeth".
Maynard's three sons, "Adameth", "Dannyeth", and "Justineth were sent to earth.
But soon a terrible evil came to earth, that evils name was "Freddursteth".
But Adameth, Dannyeth, and justineth were left with the problem to rid the earth of Fredursteth, his "singing" and "rapping" were causing deafness thriughout the land! what could they do?
Thats when Maynardeth bestowed his three sons with the power to play instruments like gods! They formed a band, a band that could rid the world of any evil, make people think, and most important of all, give people the power to think for themselves and say "hey, i shant listen to freddursteth's crap no longer!"
it was this freedom of choice that made this band save the world, and send freddurseth where he belonged. in the fiery underground known as "Shitmusicland"
The bands name was Tool, and non listeners will be destined to end up in Shitmusicland for all of the afterlife.

FIRST COMMANDMENT: Thought Shall not listen to shit.
SECOND COMMANDMENT: Thought shall thinketh for themselveseth.

hee hee hee sounds like a good religion to me. i will make it my duty to shove it down the throats of people of done the same to me!

[nabiliofadilio]

So are Carvel Ice-cream cakes. They are what happy tastes like.

hmmm i have not heard of those! please describe!

[nabiliofadilio]

woah, i just drew a connection through the tool albums (opiate and salival excluded). in each album, theres a song that, to me at least, is dragging a fault of our societies way of life, and how we kind of sweep things under the rug.

1. prison sex- child abuse,molestation, other forms of domestic abuse.
2 stinkfist- a growing need for more to feel, every sensation is getting old, so we must dig deeper
3 the grudge-(a tentative link)how we embrace revenge, and stereotypes
4 vicariuos- our addiction to violence and the idiot box

this was kind of a sudden revalation, and these are just my views on the songs, but to me tool is trying to get us to discuss these elephants in the living room.

and thus we are :)

your right!
opiate is definitley one too!
i don't know about salival though....
your avatar is crazy!

[nabiliofadilio]

ive grown up in a catholic household, and my mom is a devout catholic, and ive had 17 years of "god" and "jesus" shoved down my throat, and ive come to a realization that the more you force religion upon someone, the more they grow to hate it. ive even gone to catholic schools all my life, which has only fueled my resent. the funny thing is, im a fairly nice person to most people, and ive gotten several "best christian" awards through the years,wich i always thought was ironic. to me it seems these people dont think of good people as just good people, we have to be "good christians" to good people."god" forbid a nice person be something other than christian. i still dont see how as evolved as a race that we are cant let go of silly little beliefs that are there to keep away the fear of death.
to quote lewis black "i have thoughts, and that can really fuck up the faith thing, just ask any catholic priest"

wow, i did a little bit of rant to, religion does that to people

and to clarify, although i grew up catholic, i was never raped by a priest, because i swear to you, had i been raped, they wouldve never found every piece of the body, and i would be sitting in a jail sell with no remorse what so every

thats a bummer... your right though, it seems some people don't recognize good people unless they are good CHRISTIAN people. and it seems they always have a sense of smugness that they will live and we will burn in hell... well some people are like that.
religion does tend to make people rant!
haha good quote too

[nabiliofadilio]

damn, i have urges to talk about religion now, but i shall resist and stay on the topic of a song about butt sex and what it means.

[uummm..nocoolnames]

lol to all of the above since my last post.

[uummm..nocoolnames]

"The way I feel about it is there are monsters, and people with monsters on their backs."

Excellent metaphor and I agree 100%. What do you believe separates the monsters from the one's merely afflicted by the same?


thought about this for a while and this is what i think.

i think we all have monsters on our backs, but the size of said monster varies, based on our pasts and the way we live. i think you can hear the "monster" whispering to you every time you are angery with someone, its whispering to you to lash out, or when someone wrongs you, it tells you to seek revenge. to me the monster is anger, hate, fear and guilt, all roled into one entity, and a person with a moster on their back, no matter how large, you can still subdue the beast, but a monster(person) is someone that has let the monster grow to large, and that persons anger, hatred, fear, and guilt have consumed them, and they are living in their own personal hell.

so, taking all this to mind, the song could be about venting this pent up monster that has been fed to a great extent by a hurtful past, before the monster swallows whats left of the person inside, and kind of sick revalation in the fact that the act that damaged you so much, is the only way to keep the monster chained.

[uummm..nocoolnames]

wow, thats the most profound shit thats ever come out of my mouth ***

[Aezarien]

..... I get the distinct feeling that this song is about a vicious cycle of psychological scarring.

I agree and to a degree I think that is what the majority of the interpretations lead to. Metaphorically speaking, I like to think of it as Newton's third law translated into something that could be applied to human behavior. When we experience an event that creates intense emotions within us we tend to deal with it starting one of two ways. We will either embrace the concepts that lead up to the event or we will reject them. There are many shades in between including acceptance but that requires understanding what happened to you and most people would rather avoid confronting what it takes to reach understanding. Justification and avoidance are much easier to accomplish.

Relating back to the statement however, our perceptions will alway mold our worldly views as long as we are unable to see past the first level of our intellect and emotions. We feel empathy for those who have suffered worse than us and we wonder what people who have suffered less have to complain about. That has to do partially with ignorance of how the mind works and partially with our tendency to over-complicate things. The reality is that the actual events are nothing but red-herring information in determining what someone feels. The worst day of my life is subject to change but the worst day of my life will always feel like the worst day of my life. And when I accept that although my event was different my feelings are not unique, that is when real connection with life and other human beings can begin.


... I don't know how it works, or what psychological processes happen that make it 'ok' in their head to do such an act, but the fact is the victim can easily become the victimizer.

I don't know much about this either but I do wonder if it has to do with how abusers can be excellent manipulators as well. You often hear how victims blame themselves or have been convinced that it was their own idea.

....I perceive this song as showing the human side of a 'monster' that most wouldn't care to know. I other words, we want to label these people, and just think of them these horrible, sick monsters, when in reality there is a story behind all of it that explains their actions.

Most people's reactions necessitate keeping these people at arms length in order to deal with them appropriately. As long as they are seen as monsters then it is easier to lock them away from the rest of the world and keep society safe. When they become human we are forced to deal with their crimes which goes back to the avoidance issue that you and a few others have mentioned in this thread. I also think that society needs "monsters" not only to feel more in control of themselves but to wager more control over society itself. We can justify our "less wrong" behavior by saying, "well at least I don't.....". And we can keep people from doing what we don't want them to do not only by using the existing "monsters" but by creating monsters through things such as Urban Legends.


Keep in mind I said 'explains' their actions, not 'justifies' them.

Exactly. I think it is hard for the average human being to wrap their head around this concept. We can understand people without agreeing with what they have done.


I think the main goal of a song like this is just what we're seeing on this forum. Get people talking about these things. They're still there no matter how hard you try to ignore them.

I don't propose to know what any of the song meanings are or their purpose but I have enjoyed having this discussion immensely. It has been a long time since I have been able to engage in conversation about such a sensitive subject where everyone remained decent and actually talked about it without getting their knickers in a bunch. And you are right, these things are commonly ignored which leaves them in a state of limbo. They are dealt with but with what amount of efficiency can't be said. I think it takes this type of open-minded conversing to come up with rational solutions.

On a lighter note, wouldn't it be wild if it was a metaphor and was so convoluted that it actually didn't have anything to do with people at all?

[Aezarien]

...... but to me tool is trying to get us to discuss these elephants in the living room. and thus we are :)

This is what I think my main draw is. The music, not just the lyrics, is dimensional and requires a little thought to fully appreciate. It inspires thought and conversation and when you wrap all of that up you have art in its truest form.

I don't know about you but personally I love elephants. ;)

[Aezarien]

hahahahahahahahahahahahaha RISK..... Yeah, I know.. I'm kind of old lol. Does anyone still play this game?

i don't have the patience for listening to them babble on about jesus and such, i don't know how you do it.

I do have to admit that I am partially empathetic. After all someone like them is the reason they are the way they are today.

The religion shall be named "Toolothic" named so by our great god "Maynardeth".
Maynard's three sons, "Adameth", "Dannyeth", and "Justineth were sent to earth.
But soon a terrible evil came to earth, that evils name was "Freddursteth".
But Adameth, Dannyeth, and justineth were left with the problem to rid the earth of Fredursteth, his "singing" and "rapping" were causing deafness thriughout the land! what could they do?
Thats when Maynardeth bestowed his three sons with the power to play instruments like gods! They formed a band, a band that could rid the world of any evil, make people think, and most important of all, give people the power to think for themselves and say "hey, i shant listen to freddursteth's crap no longer!"
it was this freedom of choice that made this band save the world, and send freddurseth where he belonged. in the fiery underground known as "Shitmusicland"
The bands name was Tool, and non listeners will be destined to end up in Shitmusicland for all of the afterlife.

FIRST COMMANDMENT: Thought Shall not listen to shit.
SECOND COMMANDMENT: Thought shall thinketh for themselveseth.

OMG! That was great! Ironically enough we were just talking about Fred Durst yesterday. We were listening to Outside Live by Staind and I get pissed every time I hear that song and Durst opens his big mouth talking about "This is the real muthafuckin deal y'all". In my opinion, his attempt to be cool puts a blight on what is otherwise a good song. He was born and raised in the city we just moved from and went to two of the worst schools in the city. My son went to the same Jr. high for less than a year before I pulled him out to home-school him. Gastonia is a shit hole for lack of a better description. I do give him credit for not lying about where he is from like some other bands I know. There is a real famous band out there that made beginnings in Monroe NC but claims they started somewhere else. Anyway... I completely see the Gastonian in him. A special sort of people are hatched in that region of NC.

[nabiliofadilio]

Yeah, I know.. I'm kind of old lol. Does anyone still play this game?. RISK is awesome! i'm not laughing at risk in general, your joke about world domination and all was genius! hahah i'm still laughing at it!






OMG! That was great! Ironically enough we were just talking about Fred Durst yesterday. We were listening to Outside Live by Staind and I get pissed every time I hear that song and Durst opens his big mouth talking about "This is the real muthafuckin deal y'all". In my opinion, his attempt to be cool puts a blight on what is otherwise a good song. He was born and raised in the city we just moved from and went to two of the worst schools in the city. My son went to the same Jr. high for less than a year before I pulled him out to home-school him. Gastonia is a shit hole for lack of a better description. I do give him credit for not lying about where he is from like some other bands I know. There is a real famous band out there that made beginnings in Monroe NC but claims they started somewhere else. Anyway... I completely see the Gastonian in him. A special sort of people are hatched in that region of NC.

yeah! fred is a douche! you know what KILLED me? when at a limp bizcit show, fred decided to do a cover song. OF OPIATE!!!!!!!!! i watched the whole thing then i threw up!

[nabiliofadilio]

thought about this for a while and this is what i think.

i think we all have monsters on our backs, but the size of said monster varies, based on our pasts and the way we live. i think you can hear the "monster" whispering to you every time you are angery with someone, its whispering to you to lash out, or when someone wrongs you, it tells you to seek revenge. to me the monster is anger, hate, fear and guilt, all roled into one entity, and a person with a moster on their back, no matter how large, you can still subdue the beast, but a monster(person) is someone that has let the monster grow to large, and that persons anger, hatred, fear, and guilt have consumed them, and they are living in their own personal hell.

so, taking all this to mind, the song could be about venting this pent up monster that has been fed to a great extent by a hurtful past, before the monster swallows whats left of the person inside, and kind of sick revalation in the fact that the act that damaged you so much, is the only way to keep the monster chained.

that is a good way to put it. a GREAT way actually.

[Trelectron]

To SUM Up Prison Sex is just what it sounds like, whoever feels it deep inside can clearly understand what this song is about. This is a tru rock monsterpeice, its so sad the guys perform it live so rarely.

[nabiliofadilio]

a masterpiece indeed

[nabiliofadilio]

where is everybody?

[gabe_angelfire]

I'm here! Eatin' a bagel. BTW, I dub thee Nabiliofadilioeth the Prophet. Sent to earth to spread the Word to commoners like us.

I am ever so thankful!!!

[nabiliofadilio]

hahahahaha

you are welcome my childeth. it is your duty also, not only mine to spread the word!
and you must listen to tool everyday or mayanardeth will smite you. no joke.

[gabe_angelfire]

and you must listen to tool everyday or mayanardeth will smite you. no joke.


Commandment #3 right?

Isn't commandment #4 Be fruitful and multiply? or is it just be fruitful? I get confused :O)

[Aezarien]

Commandment #3 right?

Isn't commandment #4 Be fruitful and multiply? or is it just be fruitful? I get confused :O)

#4 Be fruity and use 4-ply

[gabe_angelfire]

#4 Be fruity and use 4-ply

That's commandment #4????

oh.

Commandment #5: Fuck. Alot.

I'm quite certain that Maynardeth commandethed it.

[nabiliofadilio]

like oh my good gooly! how did you guys know those were commandments?!

[Aezarien]

That's commandment #4????

oh.

Commandment #5: Fuck. Alot.

I'm quite certain that Maynardeth commandethed it.


That actually kind of wraps up what I was trying to say in #4

Be freaky but use strong protection :)

[Aezarien]

like oh my good gooly! how did you guys know those were commandments?!

Your spiritual guidance has lifted us up and given us enlightenment. All hail nabiliofadilio, the bringer of faith.

[gabe_angelfire]

*prostrates*

[nabiliofadilio]

hahahaha
as much as i like being worshipped.... there is no need! for you two have seen the light, and for that you shall recieve the power of immortality, unimaginable coolness, and uhhh a one way ticket straight to maynardeth's palace!

see, now if i spread the word on this religion outside the internet, i wonder if everyone else would be this loyal? hmmmmm....

[gabe_angelfire]

:O( Can I trade in my ticket to maynardeth's palace for one to adameth's? maynardeth doth be to dorky for me.

religion sucks, call it a philosophy, it will be better received by the outside world that way.

*side note* given where this is leading, I'd say that we've driven prison sex into the ground. Next topic?

[Kimmerlee]

[QUOTE=gabe_angelfire;2068833]:O( Can I trade in my ticket to maynardeth's palace for one to adameth's? maynardeth doth be to dorky for me.

I would gladly trade thy ticket....

[gabe_angelfire]

[QUOTE=gabe_angelfire;2068833]:O( Can I trade in my ticket to maynardeth's palace for one to adameth's? maynardeth doth be to dorky for me.

I would gladly trade thy ticket....

Lovely! Tis yours!!!!

LOL!!!

[nabiliofadilio]

ohh mayanardeth is not gonna be happy to hear that gabe_angelfire!!!! can you spell S-H-I-T-M-U-S-I-C-L-A-N-D?????


haha, but serioulsy, i'm a straight guy and i'm not gonna hesitate to say adam is a looker.

yeah i think prison sex is done for now. hmm but what for a topic?
one of you has to pickkkkkkkkkkk

[Aezarien]

.... maynardeth doth be to dorky for me.

I'd take him to the dance in his short pants. No pun intended.

And I agree... I think we killed this conversation about twenty posts back.

IT WAS FUN THOUGHT DAMMIT!

[Aezarien]

ohh mayanardeth is not gonna be happy to hear that gabe_angelfire!!!! can you spell S-H-I-T-M-U-S-I-C-L-A-N-D?????


haha, but serioulsy, i'm a straight guy and i'm not gonna hesitate to say adam is a looker.

yeah i think prison sex is done for now. hmm but what for a topic?
one of you has to pickkkkkkkkkkk

I'd actually trade my ticket in for a day at the winery. I don't even care to drink. I would just like a tour of the place. And yes, I want some cheese with that. No toe cheese or dick cheese please. I prefer Gouda. Seriously though, I think that would excite me more than meeting famous people.

Truth be told.. I am actually a little uncomfortable trying to guess what an artist means in their music. It feels kind of weird, like an invasion of personal boundaries or something. Anyone else get that feeling or am I strange?

[nabiliofadilio]

well when you put it like that.... i think interpreting an artist's music to get ideas, courage, or whatever emoton you need is whats musics all about.
plus the artist is displaying their ideas in song form, displaying it for people like us to interpret and enjoy!

this of course does not count bands such as panic at the disco who have about as much lyrical diversity as a 2-year old

[Cheesegreater]

I'd have to agree that Adam is a sexy man. Oh yeah, I'm straight by the way.

I love Risk.

Oh, also, did any of you guys know that Maynard actually did have a church there for awhile? This may have been some rumor, but I have from good sources, friends. haha... Anyway, I think he did at some point. I don't know if it was a joke, or if it was a real attempt to produce something positive. Who knows?

I require spiritual enlightenment, not religion. I think a lot of people look for 'spiritual enlightenment' of some sort, even though they claim they're not. The ideas and morals Tool shares with us is something that would make me go to a church, if that's what you'd call it. Wouldn't that be perfect?

Instead of flipping to some boring ass dated story in the bible, Maynard says, "If you'll turn your pamphlet to page 16, we'll be discussing The Grudge today. Danny would care to lead us in song and worship?"

[Aezarien]

this of course does not count bands such as panic at the disco who have about as much lyrical diversity as a 2-year old

ROFL - I find the mimes in the videos to be much more disturbing.

[Aezarien]

I require spiritual enlightenment, not religion.

I require immortality. Is that asking too much?

Instead of flipping to some boring ass dated story in the bible, Maynard says, "If you'll turn your pamphlet to page 16, we'll be discussing The Grudge today. Danny would care to lead us in song and worship?"

haha-This week we will be reading a selection from the book of DOUCHEBAG.

[nabiliofadilio]

I'd have to agree that Adam is a sexy man. Oh yeah, I'm straight by the way.

I love Risk.

Oh, also, did any of you guys know that Maynard actually did have a church there for awhile? This may have been some rumor, but I have from good sources, friends. haha... Anyway, I think he did at some point. I don't know if it was a joke, or if it was a real attempt to produce something positive. Who knows?

I require spiritual enlightenment, not religion. I think a lot of people look for 'spiritual enlightenment' of some sort, even though they claim they're not. The ideas and morals Tool shares with us is something that would make me go to a church, if that's what you'd call it. Wouldn't that be perfect?

Instead of flipping to some boring ass dated story in the bible, Maynard says, "If you'll turn your pamphlet to page 16, we'll be discussing The Grudge today. Danny would care to lead us in song and worship?"

hahaha! that church sounds perfect!

[nabiliofadilio]

ROFL - I find the mimes in the videos to be much more disturbing.

mimes? HA! look at the fucking band members!

[Aezarien]

mimes? HA! look at the fucking band members!

I have no problems with homosexuals. Mimes on the other hand are fucking creepy.

[nabiliofadilio]

HAHAHAHAHAHAHA ok you got me there...

[gabe_angelfire]

I'd have to agree that Adam is a sexy man. Oh yeah, I'm straight by the way.



Instead of flipping to some boring ass dated story in the bible, Maynard says, "If you'll turn your pamphlet to page 16, we'll be discussing The Grudge today. Danny would care to lead us in song and worship?"

*YUMMY* and *ROTFLMAO*

[gabe_angelfire]

this of course does not count bands such as panic at the disco who have about as much lyrical diversity as a 2-year old

Like, OMG, no you just didn't... PATD is like the best band EVER!!! They really get me, ya know.

That's like totally no fair! You shouldn't talk about bands you don't know. They, like, own my soul. You would never understand. Have you no heart????

/cuts

[Aezarien]

Oh... you didn't go all like... ELMO on me did you?

[gabe_angelfire]

HAHA!

I wish my grass were emo so it would go and cut itself.

[Aezarien]

HAHA!

I wish my grass were emo so it would go and cut itself.

rofl - thats not ver nice. ;)

[nabiliofadilio]

well uhh sorry gabe_angelfire. to each its own?

[gabe_angelfire]

well uhh sorry gabe_angelfire. to each its own?

I was just teasing ;O)

[Aezarien]

Don't let her lie to you. She has a big poster of a mime above her bed.

[nabiliofadilio]

oh my Maynardeth! who to believe!?

[Ghostwriter]

THIS IS PRISON SEX, NOT THE BIN!

[gabe_angelfire]

*Hangs head and goes to the corner*

Ok kids, enough fun... let's get back to sodomy and molestering.

[Aezarien]

THIS IS PRISON SEX, NOT THE BIN!

See Gabe, You got us *all* in trouble!

[nabiliofadilio]

well then ghostwriter, start up a discussion!

[nabiliofadilio]

no one is posting anything...

[Bhikkhu]

I think the south park episode "red hot catholic love" was inspired by this song. I think Matt and Trey are probably also big fans of Tool.
Most funniest quote from this episode:
The Galgamec vagina is 3 feet wide and filled with razorsharp teeth. Do you really expect us to have sex with them...lol

[nabiliofadilio]

that episode is hilarious

[azula]

While i understand the lyrics, i am constantly confronted by a religious undertone to this song. I am not talking about simply the use of lyrics, but i have a very clear image in my mind of a church. Hands bound, head down, eyes closed, throat wide open. Like praying. I want to say the song isn't about actual physical abuse, but religious abuse, perverted dogma thrust upon the young and innocent. Torturing youth with guilt and shame. Religion as a twisted and perverse activity, and the endless circle of progression. any one else notice or feel the same. I still understand the conventional veiw, but the more i listen the less I see sodomy and the more I see spiritual repression.

[Bhikkhu]

Yeah, I see what you mean. Catholicism has had a way of becoming part of the culture in the part of the netherlands where I come from, but fortunately most people are not being forced to go to church anymore. The only reason for me to do communion was that I got lots of presents, but after that I almost never went to church anymore. I never really felt a close spiritual connection with the hole "God and Jesus thing".
But you don't wanna hear the stories I've heard from my parents and grandparents. My grandparents were basically forced to have more children. The priest would come by their house and he would say something like: "well, it seems time you had some more children. you should be fruitful and multiply" If my grandparents would refuse, then the priest would go have a word with the employer of my grandfather and he would risk losing his job.
The priest and the employer would of course have made some sort of agreement, like: you make sure they stay poor, then I'll make sure they stay "stupid".
So, basically, people were forced to have more children, although they might not have enough money to feed the children they already had. And all these children would off course also become nice catholics and bring more money to the church.

So, you could say there's some sort of "blackmail" involved, which in some cases also occurs with for example the sexual abuse of children.

There are also some religious references, like the lamb and martyr. I also think the "do unto others what has been done to you" might be from the old testament(?), which refers to the "eye for an eye, tooth for tooth-mentality".

[nabiliofadilio]

While i understand the lyrics, i am constantly confronted by a religious undertone to this song. I am not talking about simply the use of lyrics, but i have a very clear image in my mind of a church. Hands bound, head down, eyes closed, throat wide open. Like praying. I want to say the song isn't about actual physical abuse, but religious abuse, perverted dogma thrust upon the young and innocent. Torturing youth with guilt and shame. Religion as a twisted and perverse activity, and the endless circle of progression. any one else notice or feel the same. I still understand the conventional veiw, but the more i listen the less I see sodomy and the more I see spiritual repression.

yeah i i have kinda had a a feeling of religion being SOME part of this but i never out the pieces together. oh and good way to put it azula!

[nabiliofadilio]

Yeah, I see what you mean. Catholicism has had a way of becoming part of the culture in the part of the netherlands where I come from, but fortunately most people are not being forced to go to church anymore. The only reason for me to do communion was that I got lots of presents, but after that I almost never went to church anymore. I never really felt a close spiritual connection with the hole "God and Jesus thing".
But you don't wanna hear the stories I've heard from my parents and grandparents. My grandparents were basically forced to have more children. The priest would come by their house and he would say something like: "well, it seems time you had some more children. you should be fruitful and multiply" If my grandparents would refuse, then the priest would go have a word with the employer of my grandfather and he would risk losing his job.
The priest and the employer would of course have made some sort of agreement, like: you make sure they stay poor, then I'll make sure they stay "stupid".
So, basically, people were forced to have more children, although they might not have enough money to feed the children they already had. And all these children would off course also become nice catholics and bring more money to the church.

So, you could say there's some sort of "blackmail" involved, which in some cases also occurs with for example the sexual abuse of children.

There are also some religious references, like the lamb and martyr. I also think the "do unto others what has been done to you" might be from the old testament(?), which refers to the "eye for an eye, tooth for tooth-mentality".

thats horrible! your right though, religion has always had a way of "persuading" or manipulating in the past the to help their "cause". just another fact that helps prove organized religion is just business...

i do think those quotes from prison sex hint at reigion being a basis for the song... who knows

[Freemena]

Wow! This thread really took off! Hard to believe I started it almost 5 months ago.

While I can see your point about a religious undertone, I will take the position that it is mainly about sexual abuse... though it could be sexual abuse by the clergy. It is also about longing for fulfillment that never comes.

[ivasativa]

Wow! This thread really took off! Hard to believe I started it almost 5 months ago.

While I can see your point about a religious undertone, I will take the position that it is mainly about sexual abuse... though it could be sexual abuse by the clergy. It is also about longing for fulfillment that never comes.

This thread is great.

That longing for fulfillment which never comes, is really inherent to the church business.

[nabiliofadilio]

the more i think about it the more religion seems pertinent in this song

[Bhikkhu]

Maybe the word "Prison" in the title is a metaphor for "Church". They both are institutions that try to "control" people. People in prison usually don't want to be there and some people who are/were "forced" to go to church don't want to be in church.

This might explain (part of) the title for the song...however it could off course also refer to the fact that people are being raped in prison...

[uummm..nocoolnames]

While i understand the lyrics, i am constantly confronted by a religious undertone to this song. I am not talking about simply the use of lyrics, but i have a very clear image in my mind of a church. Hands bound, head down, eyes closed, throat wide open. Like praying. I want to say the song isn't about actual physical abuse, but religious abuse, perverted dogma thrust upon the young and innocent. Torturing youth with guilt and shame. Religion as a twisted and perverse activity, and the endless circle of progression. any one else notice or feel the same. I still understand the conventional veiw, but the more i listen the less I see sodomy and the more I see spiritual repression.

i never thought of it like that but i totaly see where your coming from, my sister got married recently, and she and her husband had to go through catholic marriage classes, at my moms insistence, and her husband told me basically all they were told to do is to make lots o babies

oh ya, holy shit its been a long time since i posted