who are the scarlet lettermen

[milair47]

I understand the meaning of this song except for the words scarlet lettermen, I know that scarlet is red, but what do the letterman have to do with the rest of the song?

[Clutch_The_Cornerstone]

I understand the meaning of this song except for the words scarlet lettermen, I know that scarlet is red, but what do the letterman have to do with the rest of the song?

Scarlet lettermen are the people you have a grudge against? thats just me im probally wrong but that is my take on it. its the obvious answer.

[marcus]

It is a reference to the book The scarlet letter.

[Divine_left]

Actually it's about The Late Show.

[marcus]

Actually it's about The Late Show.I red that somewhere.

[lysergide dreams]

in the book the main character had a child out of wedlock, so she was forced to wear the scarlet letter "A" so everyone knew she was an adulteress.

[Mattywasaracecardriver]

in the book the main character had a child out of wedlock, so she was forced to wear the scarlet letter "A" so everyone knew she was an adulteress.

yeah this is true, its about the novel Scarlet Lettermen.

when i first listened to this song i didnt get it either. so i researched it quickly and was pleased to discover it was actually something that relates to the song so well. foolish to think that anything in Tool just happens, rather than it all being linked and purposeful. i think anyway.

[Divine_left]

yeah this is true, its about the novel Scarlet Lettermen.


heh...

You mean The Scarlet Letter.

[marcus]

I thought I covered this already.

[Divine_left]

I thought I covered this already.

Yeah but the illiterates missed it the first time around.

[benjamin]

Wearing a scarlet letter as punishment for adultery was around before the book!! That's where the book got it's name from!! Way back when (the pilgrims I think) it was actually a thing that they did. The reason Maynard says it, is in reference to the "grudge" every man holds.

It's the grudge. The only one that's important. The one that Freud endorsed. The one that is the antithisis of The Patient!

I've posted this somewhere...

Peace.

[DON IOTAE]

I red that somewhere.

witty!

[marcus]

witty!
Most of my puns go unnoticed. Thanks for catching one.

[Mattywasaracecardriver]

Yeah but the illiterates missed it the first time around.

sorry for not being as amazing as you...

[jevons]

Wearing a scarlet letter as punishment for adultery was around before the book!! That's where the book got it's name from!! Way back when (the pilgrims I think) it was actually a thing that they did. The reason Maynard says it, is in reference to the "grudge" every man holds.

It's the grudge. The only one that's important. The one that Freud endorsed. The one that is the antithisis of The Patient!

I've posted this somewhere...

Peace.

Lock it.

[DON IOTAE]

Most of my puns go unnoticed. Thanks for catching one.

i actually catch most. i just never reply to them.

[benjamin]

i actually catch most. i just never reply to them.

In other words, you're a smart fish.

da dunk ...tss.

[tryptosaur]

Think...if a woman is an adultress and all's one has to see is the letter "A" to know what she is...
How deep are you really thinking?
"Unable to forgive these scarlet lettermen"---now I've never read the book so two possible interpretations may apply:
The ones made to wear the letter or the ones who enforce the wearing of the letter.
Probably the ones made to wear the scarlet letter is my guess.
To believe in your heart that you have identified something completely unacceptable.
To label it.
To hold a grudge against it and to "Clutch it like a cornerstone, otherwise it all comes down".
Whole societies are based on this type of stupidity. Would the USA be what it is today, this "land of opportunity, liberty, and all that good stuff" if we didn't build up these structures on the cornerstones of grudges in their essence? Like everyone who was uncivilized, like the Native American Indians and the black Africans.
We knew they needed to be saved, even if through cruel oppression. We knew they'd come to believe in the one true God, Jesus if we forcefed them consistently enough.
Would we have NASA if Nazi scientists did not perform cruel experiments on Jews to find out how much a human (thought they said they were SUBhuman!) body and a human mind could take under the most extreme conditions of temperature, air pressure, and psychological torment?
If they would have taken all that inhumane insensitivity and "let this go" how could science have advanced to the sophisticated level we all take for granted and enjoy today?
"Justify denials and grip them to the lonesome end".
"Ignorant to the damage done!"

[DON IOTAE]

In other words, you're a smart fish.

da dunk ...tss.

no, I'm just a good observer.

[Angel on the Sideline]

So far so good.

The scarlet lettermen in the song — or the adulterers — are Saturn's children. In Greek Mythology, Saturn was a vicious, jealous being who consumed his children because they weren't faithful to him with their actions.

When "Saturn comes back around", that means rage and jealousy and the "grudge" is rising up again to take control of the narrator, to consume him much like Saturn ate his own offspring.

The reason the phrase "scarlet lettermen" applies is, as has already been pointed out, it jives with what happened in the Hawthorne novel.

[ManicMuppets]

Isnt the lyric "Scarlet Letterer"? which might imply someone metophoricly writing the letter A on themselves. Hard to tell what some of tools actual lyrics are, often left a mystery or misprinted on purpose.

[A Tad Bit Catatonic]

Wearing a scarlet letter as punishment for adultery was around before the book!! That's where the book got it's name from!! Way back when (the pilgrims I think) it was actually a thing that they did. The reason Maynard says it, is in reference to the "grudge" every man holds.

It's the grudge. The only one that's important. The one that Freud endorsed. The one that is the antithisis of The Patient!

I've posted this somewhere...

Peace.

Yeah this is it.

"Letter men" is plural. A "scarlet letter man" would therefore be a man (or person) who imposes this ^ upon somebody else. Somebody who would go so far as to brand another because of the grudge they're holding against them. Instead of just letting it go.

[A Tad Bit Catatonic]

transmutate these leaden grudges into gold...

Crowley and alchemy there... Crowley is talking about a metaphysical sort of alchemy. But alchemical references are found elsewhere in their music, and businesses. Take a look at his wine page, and look up Caduceus on Wikipedia. I'm sure I'm not pointing out anything new to alot of you.

The concept is so true though, at least I have found in my life. If you can't let personal anger go, you're bound to sink and drown in a sea of loathing, sooner probably than later. Some of these references, I believe, begin on Undertow. It can be so incredibly challenging to release someone from these feelings, but it is so rewarding to do just that. You can never be whole, or self actualized, if you don't. Forgive me for preaching to the choir.

[blake_bergeron]

a different twist on this... i always looked at it as being the letters in the bible that are red... you know, the words of 'jesus in red' type of thing... now because these weren't direct quotes from jesus because the gospels were written after he died, they could have been skewed or mistranslated completely... and in the old testament, way before christianity, people worshipped all kinds of gods... there were people who worshipped the moon as a god, the sun, the stars, etc... and as its well known there were people who worshipped the planet saturn as a god... and these saturnian cults beliefs are known to have influences on freemasons and the illuminati and all of the other secret societies who form the upper elite's of our government and other corporations...

so maybe the 'unable to forgive your scarlet lettermen' could be the writers of the gospels being the scarlet letterman... matthew, mark, luke and john... sense it was them who wrote it from memory... or the revisers of the bible... because it is odd about all of the other gospels that were taken out... so maybe these four were left in for a reason... they were easily manipulated to say what they(the elite) wanted people to hear...

that's just what i think...

[taxi_driver]

every can of worms should be opened...

you know your quote has been stuck in my head for the last couple of days...

worms, worms worms...

[blake_bergeron]

it's the only way, man

[blake_bergeron]

glad i could keep you thinking...

[taxi_driver]

*eats worms*

they're good for ya!

[Dilettante]

The Scarlet Lettermen were the men who sewed the letters onto the clothing of the women who had (supposedly) committed adultery, thus pointing out their "faults" for all to see.

The metiphorical meaning of "Scarlet Lettermen" in The Grudge track is anyone who recognises (and therefore points out) the personal grudges of another. By grudge of course I mean an untrue belief that someone must hold on to in order to justify their current reallity and actions. So of course one becomes defensive and cannot forgive the Scarlet Letterman for making such accusations.

The "Grudge" can be a personal one or a collective one. So the Scarlet Lettermen are the whistle blowers, the "Games Up" people. They are the little boys in the crowd yelling "But the Emperor has no clothes on!".

[Inner_Eulogy]

The Scarlet Lettermen were the men who sewed the letters onto the clothing of the women who had (supposedly) committed adultery, thus pointing out their "faults" for all to see.

The metiphorical meaning of "Scarlet Lettermen" in The Grudge track is anyone who recognises (and therefore points out) the personal grudges of another. By grudge of course I mean an untrue belief that someone must hold on to in order to justify their current reallity and actions. So of course one becomes defensive and cannot forgive the Scarlet Letterman for making such accusations.

The "Grudge" can be a personal one or a collective one. So the Scarlet Lettermen are the whistle blowers, the "Games Up" people. They are the little boys in the crowd yelling "But the Emperor has no clothes on!".

Just an FYI, it's metaphorical

[UtUmNo1]

Pink posties actually...

[Inner_Eulogy]

Pink posties actually...

You mean, pink posties?

[Rolo]

I found one scarlet letterman! (http://www.cokebottles4sale.com/images/1995_David_Letterman_Sm1.JPG)

[Inner_Eulogy]

I found one scarlet letterman! (http://www.cokebottles4sale.com/images/1995_David_Letterman_Sm1.JPG)

Bravo....um....maybe not

[gonzo]

The world is full of scarlet letterman.
They breed like lice.
And most of the cocksuckers are on Fox News.

[gonzo]

Hey, what about those GM executives who flew in a private jet to Washington to feed freely off of the Federal Reserve teat; for years they had no trouble painting the foreign competition red. Are they not scarlet lettermen?
We'll hear about it on Lettermen. Makes for good comedy.
Money and power seems to provide a prosporous breeding ground for fat, wimpy fleas and tyrannical ticks.
Yeah, okay, I have a grudge.

[Inner_Eulogy]

Hey, what about those GM executives who flew in a private jet to Washington to feed freely off of the Federal Reserve teat; for years they had no trouble painting the foreign competition red. Are they not scarlet lettermen?
We'll hear about it on Lettermen. Makes for good comedy.
Money and power seems to provide a prosporous breeding ground for fat, wimpy fleas and tyrannical ticks.
Yeah, okay, I have a grudge.

LOL, actually, they returned those jets today over the scrutiny.

[gonzo]

Good.
Hopefully, they have to walk home.
Get some air, and clear their heads.

[Kasadian]

i believe its a metaphor for times in your life where responsibility presents itself causing discomfort and unwanted change or at least the opportunity for it

[vicariousleye]

I believe the intention is, as per usual tool, for a multitude of possible perspectives--a broader trope, if you will.

In the book, the adultress wears the letter as a result of humanity's obsession with blame, judgment and purity (and resulting grudges). I think this line simply refers to everyone's personally designated scarlet letter wearer--whoever they may find convenient to blame and cast judgment down upon in a condescending, scolding way. In a way they would be...unable to forgive.

Edit: In other words, Benjamin is right.

[gonzo]

post 3 and post 11

/thread

edit: my posts on this topic are ridiculous and intrusive

[crimblecrumble]

scar·let
adjective
of a brilliant red color.
(of an offense or sin) wicked; heinous.

[crimblecrumble]

scar·let
adjective
of a brilliant red color.
(of an offense or sin) wicked; heinous.

[crimblecrumble]

Baseball symbology. The bat is masculinity and the ball is femininity. When they have equal balance you have to get pass the base men. The people that run on the base part of the brain. The reptilian brain.

[I4c]

The scarlet lettermen is in reference to the Golden Dawn (GD). The GD officer vestment robes are scarlet. To this day the GD holds a grudge against Aleister Crowley for exposing the gay and bisexual practices in the Order. Saturn is the planet of judgement; its metal is lead. The lyrics Saturn comes back around is referencing karma (actions have consequences). The lovers and brothers lyrics is about the true story of Adam and Eve, not the Christian bible version--Cain is not the son of Adam, but is the son of the serpent, who is Lucifer. This story is told in Crowley's tarot card, The Lovers (or The Brothers). Full story can be found in Liber e Vel Exercitiorvm (Liber E)

[k00ljay878]

When I heard of the Golden Dawn, I immediately thought of the Mythic Dawn form Elder Scrolls IV: Oblivion. I believe the cult in the game was based on the Golden Dawn, which is really cool. This only made my love for the Elder Scrolls series so much deeper.