Lucifer and Free Will (FOL related)

[]v[edusa]

I apologize if this topic already came up. I will be extremely surprised if it hasn’t. Don’t think I’m some sort of everyday bible reader cause I’m not, I’m not even Christian. Just remember that whenever I speak of God I’m not talking about some Christian God, I’m more or less talking about the sun God. Everything said here will be mostly understood by FOL readers.

This is going to link with “right in two” and “jambi” very nicely….. actually I find that most of the songs on 10000 days connect to this.

First I have to explain a few things about Lucifer according to Drunvalo from "the flower of life".

The Purpose of Creating Lucifer

God (that whole consciousness, spirit, or mind that runs through everything (best way I can explain it in short)) created Lucifer so that free will could exist. Lucifer is not Satan like most Christians think he/she is. God knew of all the actions that Lucifer was going to do and Lucifer was not created by mistake. Lucifer wanted to be like God so he/she separated him/herself from God to create the dualistic reality with a third of the angels. They set out to create free will.

The Purpose of Creating Free Will

It allows you to make your own choices, if you end up making the right choices then it allows the possibility of transcending good and evil and entering pure oneness with God. From there you would be able to enter Christ consciousness or 46 and 2 and enter the third reality which is between the original reality (before Lucifer) and the luciferian reality (separated reality). Duality and free will can create a bridge to the 3rd level of consciousness.

Remember that this is mostly taken from Drunvalo’s Flower of Life

Pure as we begin
Here we have a stone
Gather, place, [erase, so / a razor]
Shelter turned to home

Pure as we begin
Here we have a stone
Throw to stay the stranger
Swore to crush his bones

Spark becomes a flame
Flame becomes a fire
Light the way or warm this
Hope we occupy

Spark becomes a flame
Flame becomes a fire
Forge a blade to slay the stranger
Take whatever we desire

Obviously, by will, we are choosing to fill in to the separated/dualistic reality by using technology. This allows us to be further and further away from God or the source of life (original reality). We have become addicted to technology, needing it to survive.

From the book “the ancient secret of the flower of life” by drunvalo:

“Suppose your body gets cold in this room, and you decide that you’re going to go out and make something to heat the room. So you invent a heater, a really good heater, and some kind of energy source, whatever you need to heat the room and you get warm… if you did that, you become spiritually weaker… because you forgot your connection with God.”

Move by will alone

we got choices to make here. We can either feed ourselves of technology in the separated reality or we can enter the third reality which connects us back to the original reality and allows us to evolve into a unified consciousness. No one is going to make the right choices for us so we can only move by our own will alone.

Pure as we begin
Move by will alone
Leave as we come in
Pure as light, return to one

well, we obviously started out pure before and as we were born, so lets take the right route by paying less attention to technology and concentrate on pure consciousness so that we can leave as we come in pure as light. “pure as light, return to one” reminds me of when jesus said “if thine eye be single, thy whole body shall be full of light”.

I’m not going to go too far into depth on the geometry of the creation of the original reality and the Luciferian creation. I’m not going to go through the true intention of the genesis story which was started by Sumerians not moses. Ill let you guys read about it and its all in one of tool’s favourite books, as I said earlier, called “the ancient secret of the flower of life” by drunvalo.

I will say this though. The original reality creation ended up with the egg of life which is part of the flower of life. It has one center or one eye. The luciferian creation ended up with something that looked similar to the flower of life, but instead of it having one center it had two centers or two eyes. “return to one” and “thine eye be single” is referring to the third reality, third center or the third middle eye… the new reality.

Lets look at jambi for a second:

Giving away, my center

could he be talking about the one center or one eye of the original reality? The original reality is run by God’s own will only. Eden was the most perfect place to be in. “Here from the king's mountain view, here from the wild dream come true” sounds just as prefect, but you have no will in the original reality. Could he be wishing it away for a while to go through the dualitic reality created by the “devil” or Lucifer so that by his own will he can find his center again in a new third reality?

Damn my eyes!

could he be talking about the two centers or two eyes of the luciferian (separated) reality? Now he has his own will but problems can be at hand that can keep him from moving on to the third reality. “[Want and need] divide me then I might as well be gone” he seems a bit upset that this separated reality is distracting him from his center. He hopes that the two become one again into the new third reality.

Ill talk more about jambi later.

Brief Intro to “Right in Two”

According to Drunvalo we are in something called the Luciferian Experiment. As said before it is believed we are suppost to connect the two realities into the third reality. Apparently this whole free will experiment had never been attempted before in this sort of way, so it is believed that all the angels are watching us to see how the experiment is going to turn out. The angels are wondering why God allowed free will to exist on the earth cause humans are very confused killing each other instead of heading for the third reality. They are dividing themselves even further from the “center” or original reality.

Ill talk about this all later.

Conclusion
Mainly this is all talking about moving from the 1st level of consciousness, which is the original reality, to the 2nd level of consciousness (44 and 2), which is the separated/dualistic reality, to the 3rd level of consciousness (46 and 2), which is the new third unitied reality. Something that tool has been making music about for quite a while now.

[Cheesegreater]

Your posts are always interesting. I feel that I am left with more questions than answers though.
I feel the need to share a couple of things, with you, at least because of how my beliefs have been guided over the years.
First let me say this, and the following is just "hearsay" but induldge. A friend of mine told me that Danny believes that you find the Truth by seeking Lucifer. At the time I was kinda blown away. I figured it was a rumor or something, and he even acted a little freaked out by it. Also, I heard that he is a Free Mason, and had life-changing experience with a shaman. Interesting fucking background.
Here is another thing. I'm going to tell you my personal spiritual beliefs. I believe in no Hell because I don't think (God) would allow anything to truly perish (waste not). So much so, that I feel the most evil humans are one in same with all humanity. We all have the same life-force, we are one mind, so to speak. So what I was told about Danny doesn't creep me out, it almost reaffirms the beliefs I've held for a long time anyhow. I feel that we are all "of the light" even Lucifer and Satan.
Next, I remember talking to you about that book called "Keys of Enoch". I'm getting more in to it now... Question: Is this Drunvalo guy last name "Melchizedek". As I've been reading he defines the purpose of the "Keys" is to "unite the nations for the coming of the Melchizedek Brotherhood and to make ready the final preparation for the descent of the 144,000 Ascended Masters who will redeem the meek and righteous of the earth for the new life stations of universal intelligence in the higher Kingdoms of the Father."
I don't know if that sounds crazy to you, but I'm finding this book more and more fascinating. There are 64 keys. He says the "Keys" (to Enoch) are 64 sciences that will simultaneously be researched more in depth in the coming 30 years all finding some of the same "truths" so to speak. I really dumbed that down (for me haha), but like I say I'm finding this book more and more interesting. I'd like to discuss it with someone who has read it, or is at least investigating it.

[Eight]

I don't know if this has been mentioned but the song Intention. Just the title alone is linked with the speration of the two sections of the mind.

"Pure intention juxtaposed will set two lovers souls in motion
Disintegrating as it goes testing our communication"
This division also fits the title "Right in Two"

I don't know where its written, I've read all over so many times who knows. But I think it was mentioned that ego was one of the reasons we became unbalanced I believe. ( I don't know I have a headache so I could be remembering this all wrong)
I guess I see this album as a review of what we've been told in the past. Maybe so as to not add too much extra to think about when we are just now really trying to understand Lateralus
If this doesn't make sense just tell me.
I think I understand what you're saying though.

[]v[edusa]

Your posts are always interesting. I feel that I am left with more questions than answers though.
I feel the need to share a couple of things, with you, at least because of how my beliefs have been guided over the years.
First let me say this, and the following is just "hearsay" but induldge. A friend of mine told me that Danny believes that you find the Truth by seeking Lucifer. At the time I was kinda blown away. I figured it was a rumor or something, and he even acted a little freaked out by it. Also, I heard that he is a Free Mason, and had life-changing experience with a shaman. Interesting fucking background.
Here is another thing. I'm going to tell you my personal spiritual beliefs. I believe in no Hell because I don't think (God) would allow anything to truly perish (waste not). So much so, that I feel the most evil humans are one in same with all humanity. We all have the same life-force, we are one mind, so to speak. So what I was told about Danny doesn't creep me out, it almost reaffirms the beliefs I've held for a long time anyhow. I feel that we are all "of the light" even Lucifer and Satan.
Next, I remember talking to you about that book called "Keys of Enoch". I'm getting more in to it now... Question: Is this Drunvalo guy last name "Melchizedek". As I've been reading he defines the purpose of the "Keys" is to "unite the nations for the coming of the Melchizedek Brotherhood and to make ready the final preparation for the descent of the 144,000 Ascended Masters who will redeem the meek and righteous of the earth for the new life stations of universal intelligence in the higher Kingdoms of the Father."
I don't know if that sounds crazy to you, but I'm finding this book more and more fascinating. There are 64 keys. He says the "Keys" (to Enoch) are 64 sciences that will simultaneously be researched more in depth in the coming 30 years all finding some of the same "truths" so to speak. I really dumbed that down (for me haha), but like I say I'm finding this book more and more interesting. I'd like to discuss it with someone who has read it, or is at least investigating it.

yes his last name is Melchizedek. he claims that he was an ascended master that came from "the 13th step" (i believe so)

Aleister Crowley, Da Vinci, and other freemasons were luciferians. *takes out The Secret History of Lucifer by Lynn Picknett* The third degree in freemasonry "involves the volunary dying of your sense ego and separation from the universal life-essence. As your limited personal ego dies you become conscious of a bright morning star-or lucifer- within you lightening your mental horizon."

These books are amazing and i really want to get the "keys of enoch" but its too expensive for me right now.

[]v[edusa]

I don't know if this has been mentioned but the song Intention. Just the title alone is linked with the speration of the two sections of the mind.

"Pure intention juxtaposed will set two lovers souls in motion
Disintegrating as it goes testing our communication"
This division also fits the title "Right in Two"

I don't know where its written, I've read all over so many times who knows. But I think it was mentioned that ego was one of the reasons we became unbalanced I believe. ( I don't know I have a headache so I could be remembering this all wrong)
I guess I see this album as a review of what we've been told in the past. Maybe so as to not add too much extra to think about when we are just now really trying to understand Lateralus
If this doesn't make sense just tell me.
I think I understand what you're saying though.

yah for sure... this album really reminds me of the last 2 albums. i see ego keeping us unbalanced too. tool's giving us all the hints so that we can choose the right direction to evolve into something amazing.

edit: if you guys dont understand something then i will try explaining it. i just didnt want to write a book on this subject so i summarized what i heard/read. its kinda hard to talk about something written in a complex book that not many people have read.

[new millenium cyanide christ]

"medusa", i was just skimming thru the FOL books looking for something in specific relating to the song intention you referred to...

although i couldnt find the page number, you could always check vol 2 in the index for THE HALL OF AMENTI

has to do with like, a flame coming out of the finger yada yada lol (sorry im tired right now, excuse my lack of details at the moment)


anyway, i did manage to find this site, give it a read if you want

http://www.inthelight.co.nz/spirit/emeraldtablets/thoth2.htm


but yeah, i'm pretty sure intention, as well as parabola, have to do with the hall of amenti...would you agree??

[]v[edusa]

"medusa", i was just skimming thru the FOL books looking for something in specific relating to the song intention you referred to...

although i couldnt find the page number, you could always check vol 2 in the index for THE HALL OF AMENTI

has to do with like, a flame coming out of the finger yada yada lol (sorry im tired right now, excuse my lack of details at the moment)


anyway, i did manage to find this site, give it a read if you want

http://www.inthelight.co.nz/spirit/emeraldtablets/thoth2.htm


but yeah, i'm pretty sure intention, as well as parabola, have to do with the hall of amenti...would you agree??

i found something in V.1 pg 86 of FOL by drunvalo talking about a flame that gives off pure prana in the halls of amenti which is suppost to help humans in their path of evolution. If im not mistaken, thoth is saying that this sparks a flame within us all, 'awaken, O flame that burns ever inward, flame forth and conquer the veil of the night'. The flame thoth is talking about lights the right path to christ consciousness instead of leading you into the darkness of the dualistic reality. The flame was not meant to be created physically.

are you referring to this line in ch.2 of the emerald tablets of thoth about the finger giving off the flame:

"Raised then the hand of the figure,
forth came a flame that grew clear and bright. " ?

[buzzo]

first, thank you for providing an intelligent thread subject, this is some of the best stuff i've read on these forums so far...
secondly, does anyone else think that (this goes with the above mentioned idea about this album being a recap to everything before it so we can keep learning from lateralus) this is a "decoy album" as mentioned by b.m.b. and that the next step will be a progression from lateralus.
also, i don't think wings 1 and 2 are recapping anything...those tracks (if not for the tragedy theme) should have been on an album of their own.

concerning the Flower of Life...this is a very 'exciting' time isn't it?

[]v[edusa]

first, thank you for providing an intelligent thread subject, this is some of the best stuff i've read on these forums so far...
secondly, does anyone else think that (this goes with the above mentioned idea about this album being a recap to everything before it so we can keep learning from lateralus) this is a "decoy album" as mentioned by b.m.b. and that the next step will be a progression from lateralus.
also, i don't think wings 1 and 2 are recapping anything...those tracks (if not for the tragedy theme) should have been on an album of their own.

concerning the Flower of Life...this is a very 'exciting' time isn't it?

thanks! yes, i totally agree with you that the album is just a recap to everything that was said before. i think tool is just presenting some of their older songs in a different way so that maybe people would catch the meaning the second time around. i think this album is informing us that we dont need stupid possessions cause they just get in the way of our spiritual path.

And this is an exciting time i think. i sure hope people will start to transcend their ego and realize these ancient original paths that i think mankind is suppost to be heading down.... and this isnt a religion its just becoming spiritually aware, balancing within oneself and being able to give and receive love. By our own will alone we should be deciding to head down this path.

[jevons]

The Wings are on an album of their own. As lllvllledusa said, it's all just a recap: ''shouldn't have to say it all again,", the new songs were a final purge, enema.

[thomasknight]

a recap? i think that's a very arrogant stance for the band to take. i'd be surprised if that was their intention. (no pun). i don't think they look to see if "their fans" are going a long any particular path, and i think they've less interest in keeping people to the path. i think tool only tells us stuff they have learned, i don't htink they have an overall plan. one thing i always think is: where can you go from Lateralus? it doesn't sound like a recap as much as collection of ideas that aren't on a particular path that one could have drawn out, as one could over the first three albums.

[jevons]

Now i have shame.

[thomasknight]

Now i have shame.

why do you have shame? FOL related?

[Cheesegreater]

why do you have shame? FOL related?

Doubt it. Probably a sarcastic remark.

[iAMtheMA!]

heh, check out icke's "i am me, i am free".


"no price here could hold sway or justify my giving,
awake my center" ...maybe.

[MORNING_GLORY]

I don't get it. So "God" make lucifer so that we would have free will and so we would have to make our own decisions. So is this some sort of test?

[]v[edusa]

a recap?

sorry i shouldnt have said recap. i should have only said that there was a relation.

I don't get it. So "God" make lucifer so that we would have free will and so we would have to make our own decisions. So is this some sort of test?

are you asking me to think for you?

[jevons]

Please, someone think for the man.

Of course it's a test, why else would all these numbers keep popping up around you? Or why would there be so many other ''coincidences.''

Don't you see, God wants to see which of us finds the Rabbit's chocolate egg.

Fucking shit.

[]v[edusa]

Don't you see, God wants to see which of us finds the Rabbit's chocolate egg.

Fucking shit.


lolz... Im glad youre on these forums.

[]v[edusa]

I thought i would add this definition of magic from the Goldem Dawn in here:

Magic is the science and art of causing change (in consciousness) to occur in conformity with Will, using means not currently understood by traditional western science.

' "Will" is understood not in terms of the individuals petty wants and desires, but rather as an intention that is in harmony with the fundemental essence of the individuals Higher Self, and also in full accord with natural or cosmic law... taking into account the power of the human mind to affect an inner spiritual change..'-Cicero

[jevons]

lolz... Im glad youre on these forums.

Finally, an eclipse.

[jevons]

I thought i would add this definition of magic from the Goldem Dawn in here:

Magic is the science and art of causing change (in consciousness) to occur in conformity with Will, using means not currently understood by traditional western science.

' "Will" is understood not in terms of the individuals petty wants and desires, but rather as an intention that is in harmony with the fundemental essence of the individuals Higher Self, and also in full accord with natural or cosmic law... taking into account the power of the human mind to affect an inner spiritual change..'-Cicero

So, that being true, what does the border between ritual and ''existence'' lie on? What intents or whatever separate ritual from .... i can't even find a word to contrast with. Ritual is conscious anything. There is no border? Is this why i've always been fascinated by Tibetian culture?

[[blue]]

i came a wee bit late to the conversation and just figured i'd point this out. The song is called "Intension" not "Intention". There are two different meanings to the two different words, right? Maybe I'm just nit picking.

in·ten·tion
–noun
1. an act or instance of determining mentally upon some action or result.
2. the end or object intended; purpose.

The song is called INTENSION.

in·ten·sion
–noun
1. intensification; increase in degree.
2. intensity; high degree.
3. relative intensity; degree.
4. exertion of the mind; determination.
5. Logic. (of a term) the set of attributes belonging to all and only those things to which the given term is correctly applied; connotation; comprehension.


I only said that because of the Schism quotation, and just cause its a totally different idea.

I know, I know... "Stone the nit-picky biatch!"

[]v[edusa]

;1998726']i came a wee bit late to the conversation and just figured i'd point this out. The song is called "Intension" not "Intention". There are two different meanings to the two different words, right? Maybe I'm just nit picking.

in·ten·tion
–noun
1. an act or instance of determining mentally upon some action or result.
2. the end or object intended; purpose.

The song is called INTENSION.

in·ten·sion
–noun
1. intensification; increase in degree.
2. intensity; high degree.
3. relative intensity; degree.
4. exertion of the mind; determination.
5. Logic. (of a term) the set of attributes belonging to all and only those things to which the given term is correctly applied; connotation; comprehension.


I only said that because of the Schism quotation, and just cause its a totally different idea.

I know, I know... "Stone the nit-picky biatch!"


k.... why did you have to post that in here? I already know that.

[[blue]]

k.... why did you have to post that in here? I already know that.

congrats. but i wasnt referring to you.

[thomasknight]

;1998726']i came a wee bit late to the conversation and just figured i'd point this out. The song is called "Intension" not "Intention". There are two different meanings to the two different words, right? Maybe I'm just nit picking.

in·ten·tion
–noun
1. an act or instance of determining mentally upon some action or result.
2. the end or object intended; purpose.

The song is called INTENSION.

in·ten·sion
–noun
1. intensification; increase in degree.
2. intensity; high degree.
3. relative intensity; degree.
4. exertion of the mind; determination.
5. Logic. (of a term) the set of attributes belonging to all and only those things to which the given term is correctly applied; connotation; comprehension.


I only said that because of the Schism quotation, and just cause its a totally different idea.

I know, I know... "Stone the nit-picky biatch!"

That's significant but not neccesarilly important. It could easily be a play on words.

[[blue]]

That's significant but not neccesarilly important. It could easily be a play on words.
I'm seriously not trying to be a smart ass here... I do not understand how that could be a play on words. Please explain.

[bobbobbob]

It is not a play on words..."intension" means

3. Logic The sum of the attributes contained in a term.

The term they're talking about is humanity.

Seems simple enough to me...he's talking about the summation of humanity, the duality involved in this process, etc.

PS: You're stretching it with this complex multipurpose analysis...Occam's Razor applies to Tool as well people.

[thomasknight]

It can be a play on words if MJK decided that both spellings of the word were relevant to the song. What about pushit. Push It. Put shit. Who knows? It may never have entered MJK's mind, but I wouldn't say that it definitely just means that.

[bobbobbob]

Yea but Pushit isnt a word with its own definition.

[[blue]]

...huh?

I think its just too early in the morning for me.
*goes back to bed*

[Ghostwriter]

I'm going to look like a loser with this small little post juxtaposed to yours but here it goes. I think your interpretation is amazing, this post acted as a catalyst to question my spiritual beliefs. Although, it might be a more full interpretation if you were able to relate the idea to more lyrics to the songs rather than a few. I am very inspired by some of those spiritual beliefs you quoted though. Has anyone here reached their God-Head Chakra?

[Ghostwriter]

It can be a play on words if MJK decided that both spellings of the word were relevant to the song. What about pushit. Push It. Put shit. Who knows? It may never have entered MJK's mind, but I wouldn't say that it definitely just means that.

Poop Sh*t, Poo Sh*t, Pu Sh*t....

[brend_n]

Have a close look at the stereoscopic images in the CD book. Full of signifiers related to ceremonial magick, the tarot, kabbalah.

If you're interested (and I never finished it, cos I got sick of people nitpicking), I posted a look at this iconography in relation to the song-structure/lyrics here:

http://toolnavy.com/showthread.php?t=53933

Comments? I've not read FOL, but I know its been influenced by a lot of these ideas.

[jitt]

I have to say this is one of the best threads I've read on these forums. I've just started reading the FOL book by Drunvalo, very interesting. I've been doing lots of research on the FOL, and it's quite amazing. I have a relative who just visited Turkey, and I asked them to see if they could find the FOL anywhere, and it was on the original carpets of the Blue Mosque, which had to be removed because they were too valuable.

Once you start reading similar books to those mentioned I think you gain a new appreciation for this album. Also, I think meditation is key to thinking on levels which will make this album more meaningful. Not sure if I should post this here, but the following site has lots of e-books on it.. Obviously if you like the book, you should try and buy a copy, but some are very hard to find.

http://www.thothweb.com

Also, Buzzo, I'm not quite sure I understand what you mean by this is an 'exciting' time? care to explain some more?

[tomatoms]

I'm so excited to see Luciferian principles identified with tool. I've been into the various concepts of Lucifer for about 5 years now, but I fancy I've been a 'Luciferian' all my life. I always had these very dark, dreadful, tainted and ominous feelings inside Christian churches. I think Jesus himself was Luciferian, and refers to a being some call Lucifer as the Living Father, particularly in the Gospel of Thomas.

I made this animated video, it's very much inspired by what I have learned as a result of 'seeking Lucifer.' The song, whether its writers know it or not, is very Luciferian, in more ways than 7. It definitely brought out the spirit in me. It's about human potential, the privilege of existing as a human being, and that which stands in the way of our purpose/potential. http://www.aniboom.com/Player.aspx?v=205115

I love that Picknett book. it's the handbook that both lifts humanity, and condemns Christianity in the same motion. (Satan is as made up as Mickey Mouse.)

this thread is a testament to the fact that tool is no ordinary band. the art they present has filled my life with adventure and meaning. the experience of their music, and it's effect on me, is something i simply would not trade. this is why i would pay any amount of money to see them in concert when they come around. spiritual experience>money.

thank you medusa, for making this thread. i'd actually like to talk to you about these topics more directly. let me know if you're interested. there's so much out there, and you're more learned than I. I'm kind of a 'feeler-outer' 'follower of wind,' than a seeker. I fancy our thinking would complement well. and maybe you could suggest reading material for me.

I've been listening to/reading Joseph Chilton Pearce. just one line from the insleeve for "The Death of Religion.." "Pearce explains that, beneath our awareness, our culture imprints a negative forcefield that blocks the natural rise of our spirit toward our true, innate nature of love and altruism." I'm going to read on about how we were not intended, as in Right in Two, to 'divide and conquer' or engage in violence, whatsoever. His writings/ideas are powerful and full of relevant application of Luciferian principles to the end of orienting culture and civilazation to encourage, not discourage, the human spirit, the inner and outer potential of us all. He has another, "The Biology of Transcendence." I recommend his books to every person. read the reviews of his stuff on amazon. I found him through a coast 2 coast show.

Before I go into this, I must present what 'Luciferian' means to me. A 'Luciferian' is a person who recognizes, pursues, and promotes the most wonderful and mysterious gifts at humanity's natural disposal. One who engages the mysteries of existence, not for the answer, but for the quest. 'Luciferian' as describes an idea is similar, for me. It is certainly no cult, nor is it a religion, especially by any conventional means. it's more of a movement. a movement that has been held back for far too long.

Lucifer, the human progenitor, as I understand it: I refer to 'Lucifer' as IT. It is neither male nor female. (In aspects of Fatherhood, it is male, the earth our female Mother.) It exists in multiple dimensions apart from ours. (Hence, a 'fall from grace,' to create us.) it's an extradimensional being (sound familiar?) of a complexity that renders us incapable of communication with it (at least for now..) This thing wants nothing of human worship. (I think 'viginti tres' is an 'audio prediction' of an event relating to contact with this being, or something related to our 'origin.' more particularly, the 3rd Secret of Fatima.) We were created so that the universe might experience itself. Our existence, our evolution is the universe seeking to evolve. There is nothing to fear of growth of this nature.

i listen to the beginning of this song, and.. it reminds me of a digestive factory of sorts. almost as if 'diamonds' are being shoveled away, and on the other end, dumped in. it's the factory of the human soul.

this IS an exciting, AND fascinating time to be alive. People are waking up. Change seems inevitable. I see a positive turn coming, as a snowball effect arising from the desire of humanity for peace, positivity, and something spiritually valid. a rising in our collective energy and strength of connection. I personally think that the preservation of Luciferian ideals and teachings is partly responsible. I think the other part is artists like tool who present these things in such a way to appeal to the "Luciferian" in all of us. whether it be dormant, hidden, or waiting in the wing. another part of the puzzle of these exciting times is this very medium through which we are communicating. the internet definitely supports this snowball effect, and adds 'spring ups' across the globe, so that the snowball effect has peripheral advantage.

what is FOL an acronym for?

[tomatoms]

pushit is about judging a turd that looks like abe lincoln.

[Carny_Handles]

I don't get it. So "God" make lucifer so that we would have free will and so we would have to make our own decisions. So is this some sort of test?


"it has to be, otherwise I cant go on"

[tomatoms]

we are the eyes, ears, minds and hearts through which the universe is allowed to experience itself. no pressure.

[Esurient4Truth]

we are the eyes, ears, minds and hearts through which the universe is allowed to experience itself. no pressure.

or are we the bodies coexisting freely experiencing ourselves within the universe?

[theamazingtool]

D.) all of the above

[ufopancakes]

This thread has been an interesting read. I'm familiar with Drunvalo from his videos on Youtube, but I have yet to read his book. How are you certain it is one of Tool's favorite books?

[Aboulia]

Hmmm. A few things here that immediately strike me as unsubstantiated. My apologies for being direct.

First of all, there is a major premise that God gave anyone freedom. I take "God" in this sense to refer to the Biblical God in some respect, alongside the mention of Lucifer. Within this context I have been examining the scripture and find no mention of this claim. If one can direct me to it I would be appreciative. However, there are numerous occasions when the text implies the opposite. Take for example the repeated mention of God hardening hearts and bringing about the destruction of nations by his will alone. His will determining the will of men. Also Jesus states in John (5:19) "I tell you the truth, the Son can do nothing by himself; he can do only what he sees his Father doing, because whatever the Father does the Son also does.". The most explicit mention of this is by the Apostle Paul in Romans 9:21 "Hath not the potter power over the clay to make one vessel unto honour and another unto dishonour?". Verse 23 "And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory," Verse 18 "Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.".

On epistemic grounds its very difficult to justify a belief in free-will. A justification is an appeal to a determining element. As the philosopher Democritus said "By convention hot, by convention cold, but in reality we know nothing because truth is at bottom.". Democritus rightly suggests that we learn by convention alone, by prior experience. Convention then is a determining factor for one's knowledge/perception. Rendering such knowledge dependent on circumstances. I would then ask "how" one could "know" they have freedom. Yet, this very question itself seeks a justification for the claim. Something which is neither physically or logically possible is "nomologically" impossible.

On neuroscientific grounds: despite publications like "The Holographic Universe" by Michael Talbot and "The Brain That Changes Itself" by Norman Doidge. The physical brain does not violate the law of conservation mass-energy and is arranged not by itself, but by external influences in accordance with Hebb's Law. Hebb postulated that neurons firing together in contiguity will wire together. That is some metabolic change would occur strengthening their synapses. This is a neurological expression of classical Pavlovian conditioning. That process is empirically referred to as Potentiation and is the results of a complex of Neural Growth Factor, BDNF, NT-3 and so on. Like a computer, the brain has internal processes that are rooted in external factors. Nowhere is genuine freedom evident in the human brain, nor is there a point where natural law is insufficient.

Quantum Mechanics seem to be interpreted as being in a state of pure potential. This is not true, nor could it be, the uncertainty principle interpreted as a genuine quality of quantum events implies a state of inaction. For example mental uncertainty (cognitive dissonance). Even so, Stuart Hammeroff's claim that quantum fluctations in the microtubules of nerve cells is incorrect. They have no ultimate effect on the structure of neural networks.

Time-delayed consciousnes. It has become observed experimentally in recent years that so-called "free decisions" can be predicted up to 10s ahead of conscious awareness (Haynes et al.).

I actually interpret God to be the inexplicable causality itself, and our reason to be the "right hand of God". Our reason, by virtue of Hebb's Law, allows the brain to perceive causality. Perhaps a Bonobo could perceive necessity to some degree, but is mostly driven by the self-desire. Only humans (and perhaps dolphins) could fully understand the mystery of God (Col. 2:2).

It seems to me that this is Jesus message. Who could deny God then? Still there will be those who will say the kingdom is in the clouds or in the sea. I say the kingdom of heaven is within you (Luke 17:20-21) and all around you. God's will be done on earth as it is in heaven.

But even if that wasn't the intention of the scripture, it is inherent in it, as language is a system of dependency. Nouns connected by verbs, properties expressed by adjectives and so on.

In regards to Lucifer. What I understand is that it translates to Light-Bringer or Morning Star. Old Testament scripture is heavily influenced by astrotheological mythology. Lucifer is perhaps best considered to be a name for Venus. For example wikipedia states:

"Because the planet Venus (Lucifer) is an inferior planet, meaning that its orbit lies between the orbit of the Earth and the Sun, it can never rise high in the sky at night as seen from Earth. It can be seen in the eastern morning sky for an hour or so before the Sun rises, and in the western evening sky for an hour or so after the Sun sets, but never during the dark of midnight.
It is the brightest object in the sky after the Sun and the Moon. As bright and as brilliant as it is, ancient people couldn't understand why they couldn't see it at midnight like the outer planets, or during midday, like the Sun and Moon. It outshines the planets Saturn and Jupiter, which do last all night, but soon disappears. Some[who?]believe they invented myths that Lucifer wanted to take over the thrones or status of the gods Saturn and Jupiter, as a result of which Lucifer was cast out from heaven."

I think Jesus figured this all out, which is why he warned against human tradition (Mark 7:8-9 Matt 15) and is spelled out in Colossians 2:8 "Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ.".

Totally apart from this kind of interpretation. Other realities, like spirits and ethereal planes of existence are comforting, but what is there basis in reality? One ultimately suffers at the disillusion of their fantasy.

2 Thessalonians 2

"10And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.

11And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:

12That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness."

[Aboulia]

Of course Tool's lyrics, as well as the Bible, can be interpreted in many ways. A pure beginning could be our origins in purely causal elements as one poster suggested. The "second stage" is perception "Here we have a stone". Third stage is inference/reason "Gather, place, [erase, so / a razor]" and the desirable outcome "Shelter turned to home". But we end up leaving as one. In death, ashes to ashes und staub zu staub.

That is the fundamental problem with interpreting lyrics and scripture. The brain employs top-down attentional filtering in order to determine recurrent patterns. In doing so it necessarily ignores seemingly irrelevant details (http://www.scholarpedia.org/article/Neural_Filtering). In addition to the synaptic strengthening that occurs via Hebb's Law when patterns are recognized (LTP).

In that regard, we are plagued by the same problems in a direct interpretation of reality. However, we may be most wise to judge for ourselves what is right, or judge ourselves for what is right.

[Yast3r]

I've read FOL and Volume 2 of it. I must say that I was entertained during the book; notice how I said entertained? If you break down all that he says within its pages--are you reading the thoughts of a delusional madman with a mediocre level of intelligence? The answer is yes. For proof of this, look to his claims about Uri Geller in volume 2. The man believed Uri Geller was bending spoons worldwide through his television special etc.

The man has written some entertaining ideas, but when you take a look at his collective work you will notice a lot of holes and just flat out hilarious segments. Look for his 2013: The Serpent of Light book for tales about how he saved the world by having his wife orgasm on a mountain top causing a thunderstorm of epic proportions.

[Esurient4Truth]

Look for his 2013: The Serpent of Light book for tales about how he saved the world by having his wife orgasm on a mountain top causing a thunderstorm of epic proportions.

LOL

[base metal]

Hilarious thread, can't believe I hadn't read it until now.

5 stars