Plato and Dualism

[]v[edusa]

Parabol/parabola

First I would like to point out that parabol is greek for parable (a short simple story which teaches or explains an idea, especially a moral or religious idea). I noticed that tool puts certain songs in certain languages for a reason. In this case these songs are following along the lines of the famous greek Plato and his doctrine of forms. In greek, “para” means “alongside” and “bola” or “ballein” means “to throw”. Therefore the word parabola means “thrown parallel”. So what could be placed side by side here? Could tool be referring to the body and the mind?

“So familiar and overwhelmingly warm
This one, this form I hold now.”
“We barely remember what came before this precious moment,
Choosing to be here right now.”

“Plato believed in a world soul and the idea that the individual human soul is capable of recovering knowledge from the divine world of ideas from which it came to be- if only the soul can remember the knowledge that it has forgotten upon physical incarnation.”
-Cicero

note- plato believed that there are 2 worlds: the physical world and the perfect world of ideas. He taught that a world of ideas existed before the physical world.

“This body. This body holding me. Be my reminder here that I am not alone in
This body, this body holding me, feeling eternal
All this pain is an illusion.”

I think hes pointing out that this isn’t only his body. This body is also holding his soul or his mind. Plato said that the body is separate from the mind. Plato sees that the body is just an illusion.

“Twirling round with this familiar parable.
Spinning, weaving round each new experience.”

Neoplatonism is based on platos teaching. I believe I heard that they had a chakra system aswell. I think they said that the heart chakra was very important. If u check out the parabola video you will see that the lotus flower is opening at the heart chakra as if its very important. The greeks saw the heart relating to beauty and balance. It is believed that it is the key to spiritual transformation. So I think this part of the song is talking about the chakra system.

“This body holding me reminds me of my own mortality.
Embrace this moment. Remember. We are eternal.
All this pain is an illusion.”

Maynard ends the song by realizing that the mind is separate from the body. The body is only mortal but “remember the knowledge that was forgotten before we entered the physical world” that our mind, our soul are eternal and the body is only an illusion.

Ill end this by saying that I think parabol has more of a monistic point of view of the body and the mind but seems to get curious into dualistic thoughts because he says that his body feels eternal in parabol. I think by the end of parabola he has a perfect view of dualism stating that the body isn’t eternal but mortal and it’s really his mind that’s eternal....discovering that he is more than just a physical body.

[Eight]

That makes a lot of sense.

Not to be off subject but, are you still working on all the theories for Lateralus as a whole?

[]v[edusa]

why is it so dead in here?

eight-
yes i am. i would like to be able to get next to perfect interpretations of the all lateralus songs first. i need some help with some of them and i have to read a little bit more on certain subjects. i wish that more people on here would say something about my interpretations. whether it would be to prove certain things right or wrong, or to add or take out ideas. i obviously cant do this on my own, this is a lot of work. just typing out the "spiral out" interpretation for the song lateralus would take forever. someone else here and i are thinking about starting some sort of group project, like maybe even a website. that would make this faster and more accurate. unfortunately i can not do too much now cause im in school full-time. so its probably gonna be more of a summer thing.

[Eight]

I don't know where everyone else is. I'm working on getting the books you mentioned, but I'm pressed for cash. If I find anything, I'll add it, but I don't really have anything on the same track as you yet.
The only thing I found was about evidence of a kind of colorblindness that humans thousands of years ago may have had, it was in a thread that no one paid attention to either, but it was a very small thought. Just regarding the very begining of Lateralus, about the colors seen in infancy.

[boccaccio]

well done lllvllledusa. really well done.

this is pretty much what i covered in my own posts on both lateralus and 10,000 days a while back.

so i congratulate you because you do understand tool and plato.. and their intimate connection... at least way more than the average poster here. and if you push on this knowledge, expand on it, make an ocean from a lake so to speak, you'd be on your way to understanding all religion (both eastern and western), yoga, the philosophy of history, as well as the history of philosophy and most importantly YOURSELF and YOUR PLACE IN THE UNIVERSE because our entire existence is based on these same principles and ideas that people keep rediscovering over and over, finding new ways to deliver it to the masses.

the whole point of the lateralus album is to promote transcendence... just like the ancient Hindus did in the 'Upanishads', like Plato did in his dialogues (particularly The Republic and The Symposium), like Dante did in his 'The Divine Comedy', like Henry David Thoreau and Ralph Waldo Emerson did in their contributions to the American Transcendalist movement, like the Romantics and their precursors (Goethe's Faust, Blake, Wordsworth, Stendhal, Hegel, Kant etc.), like the hippies did in the 60s... and the list goes on, becoming no less obscure.

so one could ask, but why is transcendence important? why are all these supposedly great, talented and gifted people, poets, philosophers, writers, musicians and artists pushing for it by promoting love and unity? where does this all lead to?

it leads to peace of mind. to truth. to knowing yourself. knowing your body, your senses. knowing the abyss of things that you are capable of doing, achieving, creating, becoming, being. to keep it short, it leads to what is described in the songs forty six and two, third eye, lateralus and reflection.

what it all comes down to is spirituality... our ability to wake our spirits up from their state of sleep... to see, hear, smell, and feel things that go beyond logic, reason, common sense. merging your body-mind-spirit, merging with the energy around you, accessing that hidden world of ideas (stepping out of Plato's cave and being blinded by the sun ---- or even in Reflection, where 'Nard prays of the light to lift him out), opening your heart to love, to everything, to the universe. finding that higher power that sleeps within you, that moves within you and without you, whether you are aware of it or not.

this is why i feel bad for people who have never fallen in love (which, mind you, is nothing like infatuation). to love is to move beyond yourself, to the point where the self is almost unimportant and the other person is your main priority. you live for the other person, and if you're extremely lucky, you'll have a person who lives just for you. the greatest hearts knew that love is an ego repellant.


edit: if you guys need help on working on the theories for every song on the album or whatever, count me in... i have some info on the album you'd love :D

<3

[]v[edusa]

sweet. thanks. i totally agree. i hope you are going to stay awhile. go ahead and share your knowledge to us. im really interested in hearing what you got for us. we need more people like you and eight here. much love to you guys. id usually say a lot more but i got school in the morning. so im off to hopefully have some more lucid dreams.

before i go.
i do this kinda meditation every now and then. its for beginners, its called hemi-sync and it helps you use both hemispheres of the brain instead of using a fraction of the left hemisphere. it also teaches that you are more than just your physical body and even gets into out of body experiences. i thought i would add that for beginners that are interested in having out of body experiences and that are interested in experiencing what "parabola" is all about.

[boccaccio]

oooo. i'd like to know more about this hemi-sync meditation... the two sides of my brain need to have a meeting because over the last few weeks they've been at war with each other... giving me a lot of headaches.

i'm definitely around on the forums, but i read other people's posts more than anything. you can honestly write a book on Lateralus... especially if you've traced back the origin of the ideas that are expressed on it.

i honestly don't know where to begin, so to make things easier, what is it that you would like to know?

also, instead of making epic posts that no one, except us, would bother reading, it might be a better idea to chat instead through private messages or on some instant messenger.


<3

[Eight]

Oh, do tell about the meditation. I've been trying to work on that myself but its difficult without help.

[]v[edusa]

"Developed by The Monroe Institute, this process uses pulses of sound to create in both brain hemispheres electrical wave forms simultaneously equal in frequency and amplitude."

"As are all Gateway Programs, the Gateway Experience is dedicated to the exploration and development of human consciousness through a system of exercises using Hemi-Sync. These exercises assist you to know and better understand your total self. They are designed so you may learn and experience profound areas of expanded awareness. Each exercise requires active concentration, volition, and sometimes courage, as you move by carefully controlled steps from deep relaxation to those thresholds of consciousness apparently related to deep meditation. "

it helps you realize that you are more than physical matter and your physical body.

"The Benefits of Hemispheric Synchronization

Perhaps even before recorded history, humans have sought to understand and enhance perception. By doing so, we are better able to understand and enhance our daily lives. The questions surrounding how we perceive, or how we go about making sense of our awareness, stimulate many avenues of inquiry.

One of these avenues, science, has long known that our brains are divided into two halves, or hemispheres. In muscle functions, the nerve signals from these brain hemispheres act in an X crossover. The left brain controls the right side of the body, and the right brain controls the left side.

But only in recent years has it been discovered that these two hemispheres may be quite different in the functions they perform. Research indicates that we use the left brain pri*marily to talk and read, do mathematics, to reason deduc*tively, to remember detail, and to measure time, among other facets. It is the vehicle for logical, rational thought. Our right brain is the vehicle for ideas, spatial sense, intuition, music, emotion, and probably much more than we now realize. It apparently has a language all its own.
Moreover, most of the time we think with our left brain.

When we use our right brain, it is primarily to support the thought and action of the left. Otherwise, we often ignore it."

yah... hemi sync gave me some really cool kickass lucid dreams too.

[boccaccio]

but what are the exercises? so we can do them

[Eight]

but what are the exercises? so we can do them

Exactly.

Lucid dreaming is amusing. I've been studying my dreams since I was old enough to read.

[]v[edusa]

Exactly.

Lucid dreaming is amusing. I've been studying my dreams since I was old enough to read.

i had this really weird one the the other night. i had a dream that i was speaking in a language that i never spoke before in my life, to someone whom i never met before and they were speaking the same language back to me. the funny thing was that i understood what i was saying and hearing.

but what are the exercises? so we can do them

ill let you know what the exercises are but you need to get the tapes for them

wave1:

-surf waves- here you perceive, tune, and control waves of your own natural vibrational energy

-energy conversion box- you will learn to create this in your mind so that you can detach yourself from whatever is holding you back (anxieties, worries, concerns). its a process that allows you to release self-imposed limits resulting from the encrustation of fear and associated emotion.

-resonant tuning- breathing exercise to help you vitalize and charge your entire system.

-focus 10- -allowing your mind to be awake and alert and your body is calmly, deeply, and comfortably asleep. i dont know why but whenever i put myself into focus 10 it keeps reminding me of the beginning of crimes by a perfect circle probably because hes counting to 10 and repeats 10 a few times like in this exercise.

-resonant energy balloon- learn how to create a protective energy field around your body.

-exploration sleep- an introduction to out-of-body experiences. teaching your body to be fully asleep, to detach, and float up. you must be aware that you are more then your physical body.

wave2:(im only going to say the basics, the rest you have to discover on your own. im still hovering in wave 2 to make sure im doing things correctly, so this is the furthest wave that i have gone through.)

-focus 12: is a state of expanded awareness: a high energy state where you can become more conscious of inner resources and guidance.

-problem solving: putting a problem or a question in the center of your consciousness and allowing it to flow out into your total awareness. an answer will come back in its own time.

-patterning: this exercise works from the basic assumption that thoughts manifest as things. you will create a pattern by thinking, feeling, or imagining which you desire to become a part of your life...

-one-month patterning: preparing a design how and what you desire to be one month from now.

- create your own energy bar tool which allows you to induce or gather, focus and direct nonphysical energies

-living body map- learn to balance and strengthen your physical body, as well as recharge and energize it.

wave 3:( i didnt even touch this yet but it sounds like fun)
"provides you with exercises specifically devel*oped to make the methods for perceiving your nonphysical energy a comfortable and joyous experience. Completion of this Wave will be a major step in gaining conscious control of the energy system that is you."

- out of body experience- teaching you to separate yourself from your physical body.

- remote viewing- teaches your consciousness to perceive distant people, places, and events. i have a link here for free remote viewing lessons http://www.farsight.org/SRV/SRVaudioindex.html. here is also a new class that goes beyond old systems of remove veiwing called Practical Acquisition of Non-Historical Data (PAN). this is luciferian based website. http://www.psiomni.com/ its cheap. like 12$ a month.

-five questions- an exercise to help you utilize your own questions. im guessing its similar to "problem solving". questions like "what is my purpose for this existence in physical matter reality?" and "where and who was i before i entered this physical being?". "The answers to these questions will most likely not be perceived as a spoken or written word. They will probably be in the form of a series of pictures, a sense of feeling or knowing, or other methods of perception you have been working with."

- energy food: trains you to restore depleted energy.

and if u think thats nuts theres still wave 4-6:

-teaches you exactly how and what you desire to be one year into the future.

-Non-Verbal Commmication. NVC appears to be a primary method of conscious interaction in and among energy systems, or realities, where intelligence has a specific level of awareness.

-examination of your physical body and its rhythms. helps you maintain or restore optimum physical balance and well-being.

- and much more

ok so. if you want to get this here is the website http://www.monroeinstitute.com/content.php?content_id=69 or you can try finding it as a torrent.

well... i sure hope that helped someone

[Eight]

Ok, so which cds do we need? There's a multitude there.

A different language, that's really cool. I have trouble with being somewhere in between awake and asleep. Maybe it will help me be more focused.

[]v[edusa]

http://www.hemi-sync.com/store/home.php?cat=8

waveI-waveVI

you can get only the first wave if you want

[dseecs]

Id be willing to help with what I can do. I have a pretty decent understanding of Different philosophies, I would say I know the most on greek, eastern and modern Transcendentalists like Thoreau.

So any thing you guys want to discuss let me know Id be glad to help.

If you want to do this over email mine is [email protected]

[fixmenow]

i just love how tool has a strong connection to plato; i think theyve mastered a way to write really good songs with deeper meanings, than the garbage we hear today on the radio

[Eight]

i just love how tool has a strong connection to plato; i think theyve mastered a way to write really good songs with deeper meanings, than the garbage we hear today on the radio
I concur. I dislike the radio quite a lot.

[spacemonkeyadb]

Parabola Allegory (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parabola_Allegory)?

[SMEPman]

i would like to be able to get next to perfect interpretations of the all lateralus songs first.

All your interpretations are correct by default. It's your's to enjoy...so stop thinking so damn much and rock the fuck out! :)

[SMEPman]

but what are the exercises? so we can do them

Alternate nostril breathing. Take a few deep breaths and notice which nostril takes in more air in over the other. To equalize and sync right and left your brain you will breathe in and then plug your R and exhale through your L. Then inhale back through your L. Hold your breath for a millisecond and switch and plug your L. Now exhale thorugh your R then repeat back and forth. I works best to use your thumb and fore finger to hold your nostril's closed. It typically takes 5-10 minutes to get both flowing equally.

[]v[edusa]

All your interpretations are correct by default. It's your's to enjoy...so stop thinking so damn much and rock the fuck out! :)

hey, its actually helping me find my true self. thats one of the main reasons why i enjoy studying tool. you wouldnt believe how big of a leap in my spiritual awareness that i got just from studying tool and you probably wouldnt believe me if i told you how new of a tool fan i really am. well anyways, while im doing all this i am still rocking the fuck out.

[]v[edusa]

Someone had concern about this thread so he sent me a message:


I wanted to point out something you might find interesting. You mention in your reading of Parabola that it's about mind/body dualism, and that body is holding the spirit (in the lyrics). I agree that a lot of maynard's lyrics are laden with allusions to dualism but in this particular song, it migh be different. here is an excerp from an interview:

{{Interviewer: From this, I state that the feeling of eternity and reference to pain as an illusion in 'Parabola' is interesting. Is this tongue-in-cheek or is the meaning here literal?
MK: "Having a background in science, anyone will tell you that everything pretty much is light. Form and frequency, quantum physics and the fact that humans are made up of bits of matter (light), at this level, particles neither come into nor go out of existence, and at that level we are eternal. And although pain operates at one level, there is no pain at the underlying level of matter. People operate at different levels. Does that make any sense? These are huge, lofty spiritual concepts. Keith Richards is still walking around, doesn't that prove something?"}}

This sounds more like materialst thinking to me: that the body and even sensations like pain, can essentially be reduced to matter. So, when he says that we are eternal, he isn't referring to a spirit, but material particles. What do you think?

Anyway, this is not meant to be a criticism, i thought you'd find it interesting. I like the interview because maynard doesn't seem to be annoyed (like he is with most airhead reporters). here is the full interview in case you haven't read it: http://www.cdicarlo.com/paper_04maynard.htm


[here is what I said]

"Actually, I just read this interview yesterday. I had a thought about the ego and pain a month or so ago. It's the false ego that makes us desire and feel pain. the false ego is only an illusion. I think that once you get to the understanding that it is an illusion then that is when you realize that the body is only light and we truly are eternal. To think that we no longer live after we die is something from the false ego. Life can be appreciated more if the ego is crucified meaning to get rid of the false ego and resurrect as your true ego. Your true ego is eternal and I believe it holds memory of who you are even before entering this physical body.

Hes not going to tell interviewers that hes a mind/body dualist. He seems to be very careful as to what he says to the public.

"be my reminder here that I am not alone in this body"

He still sounds like he is realizing that hes more than his physical body. The body is holding him right? the eternal part of him.

"We barely remember what came before this precious moment"

He seems to be stating that we had memory before entering this body, that we are in now, as in we existed before entering this body. Bob Frissell and Drunvalo state that the body is light and that we are immortal. They say that through certain methods people will begin to realize that we are more then our physical body and that they will discovery that they are an energy body.

"Immortality is about consciously leaving when you want to, and retaining your memory as you ascend through the heights. Its about remembering who you are always."-Drunvalo"

[thomasknight]

I've always felt that this song has a Bhuddist feeling to it. His use of the word "illusion" is certainly well used by Bhuddists. I'm not as well read as the original poster appears to be about Greek thought, but i've haven't heard this used by Plato, as much as Bhuddist writings. I know more about the dualism of mind and body as discussed by Descartes, and this is close to the idea of a world of ideas and a physical world. However Bhuddism would the reject the "dualistic" idea, because this suggests that the two afformentioned worlds exist equally. There is only one true reality and the physical world is just an illusion, I feel the song is closer to this than dualism.

[DamnageD]

lllvllledusa,

I think you're really close on this. I'm not clear yet on the details as i'm still learning the specifics, but i'll do my best.

Parabol/Parabola have always held a certain special quality for me. I was never sure what or why, besides the message on the surface. What has changes is that I recently was handed a book called "the disappearance of the universe" by someone named Gary Renard. Not being a "religious" person but a "spiritual" person this is waking me up. How does this relate to these two songs? It relates directly, but i'm still reading so when I get further into the understanding i'll elaborate further.

You're correct in the fact that parabol relates directly to a parable, however a parabola is more mathematic and in some instances looks like a steep, single sine wave, or a broadened elipitical orbit. What am I shooting at? I'm not exactly sure yet, but I think the parabol is us here, now, the parabola is the method and direction to get out else we return to the parabol.

The message may be this:
Parabol=We've been here before, we choose to be here now, and we will always continue, if we choose to.
Parabola=The body and everything around us in an illusion, only the mind is real. Our minds are not our own...and the mind is God. Let go of the body and the mind is free.

This is just my interpretation based on an idea I am still trying to grasp, but for all intense purposes it fits very well into the message of transformation TOOL seem to be trying to convey to us.

[Tysoe]

I see a featus in the womb when I listen Parabol. And then it's like traveling down the birth canal as the track ends and then Parabola starts. At this point I am thrust out into the world of sensations. We barely remember what came before this moment because in order for us to experience this reallity we must forget where we came from, otherwise the game is up, it's no fun. The multi-dimentional act of being alive is such a unique experience. To get the most out of it one needs to learn to "be in this world, but not of it". This means living fully in the body, but always knowing who we really are (spirtual beings). To be of the world means to allow the world to create us.

Yes, we are made of light. Yes, all matter breaks down to just bundles of energy vibrations. These things are todays science. But I believe that these two tracks are (Parabol and Parabola) are about the incarnation of a human soul from conception through to birth and the eventual remembering of their true nature.

[bobbobbob]

Read up on your Plato...he believed in four different worlds/realities.

Although the material is very similar...I dont think there is a direct influence.

[TheJaredLogan]

i would really like to meet all of yall face to face and have a huge discussion on the subject. It seems like we, as supporters of a higher existence than the everyday physical world we live in, and using TOOL as a medium, could make serious breakthroughs in life. I'm so excited to be a part of this. One interpretation that I've thought of concerning parabola was a lighter one leaving the band's message as nothing more than a celebration of life. llvlledusa is blowing my mind with the plato stuff, and, actually knowing stuff about him before it, it makes so much sense. This is a truly beautiful thing guys. It's almost like when i'm reading this i can feel a higher existence pushing me from behind saying go further down the rabbit hole. this is hot. fuck american idol.

[lossofprana]

Reminding me that all this pain is an illusion yes it may just seem more budist to me but that's because I don't really know that much about greek indeed. Because what is the difference between pleasure or pain. He could have just easily said pleasure.

And what of these two A dualism right there but something that we as animals feel. Not so much humans but as animals as we are beast that run around the earth bi-pedal no less but stil a physcial form to the end.

But it is also in this body that reminds me that I'm eternal because I tend to think in terms of I and in terms time and such. But here again are some illusions maybe to protect me or my brain from to much so what is there to do but transcend this place this body. I am base things on my past but there is nothing that tells me that I have been there so my future has yet to come or something like that.

The Duelism perhaps as well as thought that this is nothing new that people have had these thoughts as long as people have been able to comprhend such things. So familar... this moment. And that is the same as it will be forever not the fact that it will be the same moment forever and that it will continue to have those moments. But each will be diffenent in exactly the same way. But not exactly the same way. Only because I will live my life and I will have things happen to me that I maybe able to share with the next human that is if that human has gone through some of the same things I have or can at least Emphasize with me. I know not what it feels like to be crucified for the people of earth but I can imagiane such a thing. And that moment lives on most when I feel like people know not what I do but I do it for all of them. The moment lives on it has to other wise no other art will be created.

Nobody really ever thought that's it that's exatly what I thougt now I can go home and raise cattle instead not that raising cattle is less. But that's it I must do something else all emotions are expressed in that what ever it was that was created.

And what if then that would be the end of the ego end of all the need to expericee this human event. And we would not have to let go of all the things that hold us down we wouldn't have to let go of the people that hold us down and that may be people that think that they have the right idea it coudl be the government or our parents. I'm not a teenager but an adult and still I see some of my freinds led by their parents as much as when they where six still stuck with the same dogma that has plagued them. You don't do that because that's what city folk do or that's what those crazy people do. Let go and realize that all of this eternal and I am not alone. The best part that I am not alone that there are people and more then that there is something out there or in here that makes so I am not alone.

[The Holy Gift]

as a math major/physics minor everything that maynard said in that interview is dead on the money. this song is about the basic laws of the universe.
1)Law of Conservation of Energy. Energy can neither be created nor destroyed, it can only change form.
2) Law of Conservation of Mass. Mass can neither be created nor destroyed, only change forms.
"twirling around with this familiar parable, spinning, weaving around each new experience. recognize this holy gift....to be alive and breathing, this body holding me reminds me of my own mortality...embrace this moment, remember we are eternal" --maynard is simply saying that we live in a "closed universe" (look it up) but dont take this life for granted, we are mortal and can "die", but fear not, because the matter that makes up your body is eternal, thus, you are eternal....you can only change forms, never be destroyed. this idea is persistent through parabol too: "so familiar and overwhelmingly warm, this one, this form i hold now" hes simply saying, hes taken this shape before, as he would in a closed universe. "this body holding me reminding me that i am not alone, in this body, makes me feel eternal, all this pain is an illusion" the form he takes now reminds him he isnt alone in the universe, but the matter that makes up the form makes him feel eternal because it cannot be destroyed, and on the smallest level of matter, the atom, there is no such thing as pain, so yes, in a sense, pain is an illusion. i mean its just like he said in the interview( which btw is probably the best interview hes ever given, i suggest reading it if you havent.)

oh and as the parabola goes...its the path that the closed universe takes...after the big bang the universe only goes so far out before it stops, and comes back, just like the shape of the equation -x^2.

i really hate to ruin ur plato theory, thats good work though....

[Dazz187s]

I'm new to all this, but these interpretations help me a lot to understand Tools songs. Need some time to read all this and thanks lllvllledusa, knowledge is helping those who wish to be enlighten.