H

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What's coming through is alive,
what's holding up is a mirror
but what's singing songs is a snake
looking to turn this piss to wine.

(my inner self, my progression is my true life
The mirror is me, not my external ego, but my internal one)
The snake is this world and it is us, possibly our external ego. life feeding on life. also the oroborsos(sp) it has to do with alchemic progression, looking to turn my lead center to gold. -- we intake our output .. irony.)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ouroboros

They're both totally void of hate,
but killing me just the same.

(The mirror and snake are totally void of hate, they both are you and want to feed your conflicting desires)

The snake behind me hisses
what my damage could have been.
My blood before me begs me
to open up my heart again.

(Your external ego wispers what the undone could do. if not done.
the blood, demands you to not be afraid and learn. you are the sinner regardless. follow your mirror. dont listen to the snake.)


And I feel this coming over like a storm again.
Considerately.

(my best guess is the confusion of what to do.)

Venomous voice tempts me,
drains me, bleeds me,
leaves me cracked and empty.
Drags me down like some sweet gravity.

(Voice of your conscience, heart of hearts. tears down your every known wrong which, through the eyes of a good god, the pull of your conscience, is every part of you. a cycle of self destruction. nitche(sp) would agree and bash.

Voice of your ego wants you to feed your autonomy which goes against your connected mirror, sets you back from progression, drains your heart, things that destory are addictive by nature, like gravity. mm - "gravity rides everything" and eventually into the dirt returning back to the snake. i want off. in time)



I am too connected to you to
slip away, to fade away.
Days away I still feel you
touching me, changing me,
and considerately killing me.

(He Has Left Us Alone But Shafts Of Light Sometimes Grace The Corner Of Our Rooms) forever change. it is demanded. and you will die this way.

Without the skin,
beneath the storm,
under these tears,
the walls came down.

(not sure what this means exactly. we are in this ocean of chaos called life. this must be the storm. tears to me is symbolic of spiritual droppings into your mind. which in return rain down into your heart in which it collects until it overflows.. as a male this is a obstacle we all have to face is bringing the walls down. the best alchemic path i know is finding a woman and then having a child.

And the snake is drowned and
as I look in his eyes,
my fear begins to fade
recalling all of those times...

...I could have cried then.
...I should have cried then.

(as ego is surpressed, and you see yourself for what you are, remembering all the horrible things you had to endure to become this way, coulda gone emo. shoulda gone emo in a private way.

And as the walls come down and
as I look in your eyes
my fear begins to fade
recalling all of the times
I have died
and will die.
It's all right.
I don't mind.

(you are not a static image. you as yourself must and will die. your character and progression through life mimics this process in micro ways. growing up.

I am too connected to you to(GNOSISTIC in nature)
slip away, to fade away.
Days away I still feel you
touching me, changing me...

...and considerately killing me.

---
to know. whatever. so i could point my finger. whenever.sometimes i could kneel before a farm boy simpleton.

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more related conceptual stuff. its o-k.

Come, you lost atoms, to your Center draw
And be the eternal mirror you saw
Rays that have wander'd into Darkness wide
Return and back your sun subside.
-Farid ud-Din Attar

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i like the having children interpretation. this interpetation is the same. but you are your own child. maybe.


---------------

H.

is a ladder. representing the climb. i think. i coulda herd that here. dunno

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that interpretation is so wrong. but i think it serves as a solid lead.

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i think this snake and possibly this world is like non malignant tumor. think about it. in order to get to where it was it had to take from something. once it got enough substance it was able to self sustain. what was the something that got it all started. and the snake isnt all that grand, evenly balanced, and who are we to say that it must be that way? or maybe its like fertile ground to produce things that move on to other worlds and scenarios. these questions are beyond me.

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http://www.crystalinks.com/ouroboros.html

its informative.

i dont think i clarified. piss into wine. its the output turns into intake. the life feeds on life motif.

and lead to gold is some old material based form of alchemy. which turns crude metals into gold. there are beliefs that the elite powers that have a stronghold over the world know the secret to producing gold which gives them goologs of money to push their agenda.

a same like metaphor would be saying you got coal that doesnt crack under the alchemy pressure of time but yet is turned into a diamond.

or your dark soul through the unfolding of events in your life is turned the bright sun which is your eternal self connected to the good god, fufiling your role on within this existance.

but not everyone takes these paths though they can.

this always brings me back to what is a goats path and what is a sheeps path?

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http://www.unexplained-mysteries.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=57382

every tool fan should understand and know this material so they can expand on it or throw it away.

its not hidden, its just complex and requires you to use alchemy of thought. like any modern day puzzle.

a image is worth 1000 words and you will see many images with what is assumed to be appropriate explanations, active discussion, many good questions and suggestion.

This is a long read and should be broken up over a month or so.

[McButterpants]

2 good links there. Thanks - I know little of the material that Tool draw from, i.e. the occult. I find it strange that they use it so heavily as they are seemingly secular - religion being the most common form of the occult. Does anyone see Tool's occult references as reflecting their beliefs, or do you see it as an artistic tool?

I take the latter view. The occult arises to explain human mysteries and articulate our thoughts and perceptions and it translates experience for others to see and understand, even if there is no grounding in reality. I think this is what Tool are doing and have been doing since they started, and there are quotes from Maynard all over the place supporting this too. He uses his time as a spotter in the artillery as an analogy for his Tool career - he is translating and communicating a position to others. Tool, whilst openly criticising and chastising religion, still venerate its foundings in the occult which have a, shall we say, legitimate reason to be taken seriously.

I think this is how the apparent contradiction between Tool's atheism and love of the occult can be resolved, and (funny this...) it fits in with the way I view such things too. I hate organised religion of any form, but I do understand why people still go to Church or the Mosque, Synagogue or wherever it may be as I do think there is such a thing as 'spirituality' and that it does matter to individuals ( - but I don't think this requires a soul, a dualist world, oranything like that - it feels to me more like a supreme self-consciousness that recognises our frailty and our strengths, but I have not yet developed an articulated version of this theory.)

[Inner_Eulogy]

2 good links there. Thanks - I know little of the material that Tool draw from, i.e. the occult. I find it strange that they use it so heavily as they are seemingly secular - religion being the most common form of the occult. Does anyone see Tool's occult references as reflecting their beliefs, or do you see it as an artistic tool?

I take the latter view. The occult arises to explain human mysteries and articulate our thoughts and perceptions and it translates experience for others to see and understand, even if there is no grounding in reality. I think this is what Tool are doing and have been doing since they started, and there are quotes from Maynard all over the place supporting this too. He uses his time as a spotter in the artillery as an analogy for his Tool career - he is translating and communicating a position to others. Tool, whilst openly criticising and chastising religion, still venerate its foundings in the occult which have a, shall we say, legitimate reason to be taken seriously.

I think this is how the apparent contradiction between Tool's atheism and love of the occult can be resolved, and (funny this...) it fits in with the way I view such things too. I hate organised religion of any form, but I do understand why people still go to Church or the Mosque, Synagogue or wherever it may be as I do think there is such a thing as 'spirituality' and that it does matter to individuals ( - but I don't think this requires a soul, a dualist world, oranything like that - it feels to me more like a supreme self-consciousness that recognises our frailty and our strengths, but I have not yet developed an articulated version of this theory.)

Well said, I completely agree with this and the feeling is mutual.

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Truth is a Pathless Land
by J. Krishnamurti

What follows is the speech made by Jiddu Krishnamurti in 1929 when he dissolved the Order of the Star. The Order of the Star was the organisation built around Krishnamurti by Theosophists who selected him at the age of 13 to be the vehicle for the return of the Christ, or Maitreya. He was raised accordingly, but after his enlightment, he refused the role that has been prepared for him, disbanded the organisation of which he was the head, and continued to teach on his own. His speech was made during the Dutch Camp of Ommen, in front of more than three thousand Star members, and with many thousands of Dutch people listening on the radio. Many of the concepts that are present in this speech are worth to be pondered upon in the light of almost 70 years of spiritual history.


We are going to discuss this morning the dissolution of the Order of the Star. Many will be delighted, and others will be rather sad. It is a question neither for rejoicing nor for sadness, because it is inevitable, as I am going to explain....

I maintain that Truth is a pathless land, and you cannot approach it by any path whatsoever, by any religion, by any sect. That is my point of view, and I adhere to that absolutely and unconditionally. Truth, being limitless, unconditioned, unapproachable by any path whatsoever, cannot be organised; nor should any organisation be formed to lead or coerce people along any particular path. If you first understand that, then you will see how impossible it is to organise a belief. A belief is purely an individual matter, and you cannot and must not organise it. If you do, it becomes dead, crystallised; it becomes a creed, a sect, a religion, to be imposed on others.

This is what everyone throughout the world is attempting to do. Truth is narrowed down and made a plaything for those who are weak, for those who are only momentarily discontented. Truth cannot be brought down, rather the individual must make the effort to ascend to it. You cannot bring the mountain-top to the valley....

So that is the first reason, from my point of view, why the Order of the Star should be dissolved. In spite of this, you will probably form other Orders, you will continue to belong to other organisations searching for Truth. I do not want to belong to any organisation of a spiritual kind; please understand this....

If an organisation be created for this purpose, it becomes a crutch, a weakness, a bondage, and must cripple the individual, and prevent him from growing, from establishing his uniqueness, which lies in the discovery for himself of that absolute, unconditioned Truth. So that is another reason why I have decided, as I happen to be the Head of the Order, to dissolve it.

This is no magnificent deed, because I do not want followers, and I mean this. The moment you follow someone you cease to follow Truth. I am not concerned whether you pay attention to what I say or not. I want to do a certain thing in the world and I am going to do it with unwavering concentration. I am concerning myself with only one essential thing: to set man free. I desire to free him from all cages, from all fears, and not to found religions, new sects, nor to establish new theories and new philosophies. Then you will naturally ask me why I go the world over, continually speaking. I will tell you for what reason I do this; not because I desire a following, not because I desire a special group of special disciples. (How men love to be different from their fellow-men, however ridiculous, absurd and trivial their distinctions, may be! I do not want to encourage that absurdity.) I have no disciples, no apostles, either on earth or in the realm of spirituality.

Nor is it the lure of money, nor the desire to live a comfortable life, which attracts me. If I wanted to lead a comfortable life I would not come to a Camp or live in a damp country! I am speaking frankly because I want this settled once and for all. I do not want these childish discussion year after year.

A newspaper reporter, who interviewed me, considered it a magnificent act to dissolve an organisation in which there were thousands and thousands of members. To him it was a great act because he said: "What will you do afterwards, how will you live? You will have no following, people will no longer listen to you." If there are only five people who will listen, who will live, who have their faces turned towards eternity, it will be sufficient. Of what use is it to have thousands who do not understand, who are fully embalmed in prejudice, who do not want the new, but would rather translate the new to suit their own sterile, stagnant selves?....

Because I am free, unconditioned, whole, not the part, not the relative, but the whole Truth that is eternal, I desire those, who seek to understand me, to be free, not to follow me, not to make out of me a cage which will become a religion, a sect. Rather should they be free from all fears - from the fear of religion, from the fear of salvation, from the fear of spirituality, from the fear of love, from the fear of death, from the fear of life itself. As an artist paints a picture because he takes delight in that painting, because it is his self-expression, his glory, his well-being, so I do this and not because I want any thing from anyone. You are accustomed to authority, or to the atmosphere of authority which you think will lead you to spirituality. You think and hope that another can, by his extraordinary powers - a miracle - transport you to this realm of eternal freedom which is Happiness. Your whole outlook on life is based on that authority.

You have listened to me for three years now, without any change taking place except in the few. Now analyse what I am saying, be critical, so that you may understand thoroughly, fundamentally....

For eighteen years you have been preparing for this event, for the Coming of the World Teacher. For eighteen years you have organised, you have looked for someone who would give a new delight to your hearts and minds, who would transform your whole life, who would give you a new understanding; for someone who would raise you to a new plane of life, who would give you new encouragement, who would set you free - and now look what is happening! Consider, reason with yourselves, and discover in what way that belief has made you different - not with the superficial difference of the wearing of a badge, which is trivial, absurd. In what manner has such a belief swept away all unessential things of life? That is the only way to judge: in what way are you freer, greater, more dangerous to every society which is based on the false and the unessential? In what way have the members of this organisation of the Star become different?....

You are all depending for your spirituality on someone else, for your happiness on someone else, for your enlightenment on someone else.... when I say look within yourselves for the enlightenment, for the glory, for the purification, and for the incorruptibility of the self, not one of you is willing to do it. There may be a few, but very, very few. So why have an organisation?....

No man from outside can make you free; nor can organised worship, nor the immolation of yourselves for a cause, make you free; nor can forming yourselves into an organisation, nor throwing yourselves into work, make you free. You use a typewriter to write letters, but you do not put it on an alter and worship it. But that is what you are doing when organisations become your chief concern. "How many members are there in it?" That is the first question I am asked by all newspaper reporters. "How many followers have you? By their number we shall judge whether what you say is true or false." I do not know how many there are. I am not concerned with that. If there were even one man who had been set free, that were enough....

Again, you have the idea that only certain people hold the key to the Kingdom of Happiness. No one holds it. No one has the authority to hold that key. That key is your own self, and in the development and the purification and in the incorruptibility of that self alone is the Kingdom of Eternity....

You have been accustomed to being told how far you have advanced, what is your spiritual status. How childish! Who but yourself can tell you if you are incorruptible?....

But those who really desire to understand, who are looking to find that which is eternal, without a beginning and without an end, will walk together with greater intensity, will be a danger to everything that is unessential, to unrealities, to shadows. And they will concentrate, they will become the flame, because they understand. Such a body we must create, and that is my purpose. Because of that true friendship - which you do not seem to know - there will be real co-operation on the part of each one. And this not because of authority, not because of salvation, but because you really understand, and hence are capable of living in the eternal. This is a greater thing than all pleasure, than all sacrifice.

So those are some of the reasons why, after careful consideration for two years, I have made this decision. It is not from a momentary impulse. I have not been persuaded to it by anyone - I am not persuaded in such things. For two years I have been thinking about this, slowly, carefully, patiently, and I have now decided to disband the Order, as I happen to be its Head. You can form other organisations and expect someone else. With that I am not concerned, norwith creating new cages, new decorations for those cages. My only concern is to set men absolutely, unconditionally free.

[jevons]

Fucking A, Mohawk! Never read that before, thank you. Make of this what you will: considering the exodus from churches and toward personal journies, do you think it is likely for these individual paths to all, eventually, focus on the same purpose, forming a collective, or benevolent "dictatorship?" I know it sounds hippie, but considering no one can merge the sides of your brain for you, clean the doors of perception, and what that would do to your "needs, goals," is it not safe to assume the collective consciousness could be realised by such a process?

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jevons can you reword your question. I am having a hard time understanding.

[jevons]

could the collective consciousness realise itself through a multitude of these individual paths? Could they all head to the same end point/arena?
Hope that helps.

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How else will it work? a cookie cutter program? how is that alive and inifinite in any way? Put god in a box and he bocomes a box and not god.


but what is a concievable arena/point?

My mother,father, and friends have taken completely different paths than I chose, and their subjective experience is just as relavent from a 'needing to be wholistic' viewpoint. It cant be any other way really. We are all making our contributions.


But there might be events that cause everyone to synch in imaginable ways. I just cant imagine what the nature of the snych would be.

and whats the point of the collective consciousness realizing itself? Higher forms of communication? Information already debatably travels faster than the speed of light through the collective unconscious. what would be the purpous of a collective consciouss? What would it be like? What is the collective consciouss now?Is it a mirror of the macro human condition?

[jevons]

It just made sense to me that , with the progression through all of this destructive emotion would ultimately leave us/me at a higher level; i imagined an arena, where the follies of our current way of life could not only be overcome, but erradicated and controlled/understood by that mindset's inhabitants.
The only other way to overcome seems to make sense is for a lot of people to die, and i dispise that idea.

[jevons]

And i suppose the conscious now would be a broken mirror, or window. I suppose we all bear a particular viewpoint back into whatever it used to be or could be, or for whatever reason chose/was forced to alter.
If it ever really existed. Maybe it's just a dream now.

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"Seen with the terrestrially sullied eye, we are in the situation of travelers in a train that has met with an accident in a tunnel, and this at a place where the light of the beginning can no longer be seen, and the light of the end is so very small a glimmer that the gaze must continually search for it and is always losing it again, and, furthermore, both the beginning and the end are not even certainties. Round about us, however, in the confusion of our senses, or in the supersensitiveness of our senses, we have nothing but monstrosities and a kaleidoscopic play of things that is either delightful or exhausting according to the mood and injury of each individual. What should I do? or: Why should I do it? are not questions to be asked in such places."
- Franz Kafka

A girl i am dating pointed out that he is asking them anyway. The above quote is a good lead, but still has a subjective spin on it.

"Realization that our whole knowledge of the universe is simply a residue of impressions
clouded by our imperfect senses makes the quest for reality 'seem' hopeless."

i note seem because this is the key to progression, to have vision and hope. seem degrades the possibilities that we will clear things up.

more kafka just for fun:
"We are as forlorn as children lost in the wood. When you stand in front of me and look at me, what do you know of the grief's that are in me and what do I know of yours. And if I were to cast myself down before you and tell you, what more would you know about me than you know about Hell when someone tells you it is hot and dreadful? For that reason alone we human beings ought to stand before one another as reverently, as reflectively, as lovingly, as we would before the entrance to Hell." -kafka

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There are people who want to reduce the population for possibly relavent reasons . Ever heard of the georgia guide stones?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Georgia_Guidestones

[jevons]

Very detailed, but why those languages? Cuneiform makes sense, it's where we started; English, a logical end/start point. Are the others an attempt at universality? The pseudonym bothers me a little on its own, but the rest of the information cancells that out.

500,000,000 people sounds awfully right extremist, though. And the fitness thing, will that end up being a "kill the fat kid, the stupid kid, that one has spots."? I agree with it as a motivational tool to remind Christians of something they could be missing in their spirituality, however, doesn't it sound like someone trying to create a new process based too much on old concepts? Wouldn't it fail, like the rest.

Thank you for this new thing, but forgive my skepticism: will they automatically kill child #500,000,001? What the hell does "rule" passion, faith come down to? With who's tempered reason would they do this? Fair laws and just courts are easy to speak of, but the word in no way gives me hope that sex-for-citizenship (kind of an issue lately in Toronto), or worse yet, judges in white hoods or financial crises would just disappear. Uniting humanity with the one language reminds me of Alexander of Macedon, who attempted to blend all the pigments of Humanity, apparently to make us all ''one'', ignoring the deeper aspects of what oneness means.

Don't we already have a universal language, or two? Love, unconditional love for all things, and music: emotive sounds. Couldn't those be more beneficial than English, which i can only assume he meant.

Wait a fucking second, is this the new fundamentalist Manifesto? Did AIDS come out after this thing was placed?

The ''truth-beauty-love'' part, it really sweetens your perception of the rest of this set of rules, denies the potential for being heartwarmingly deceptive.

The voice of the message is so deliberately Biblical Hippie, but it is all so enticing on paper. As is with any manifesto, i suppose.

Could you tell me anything more about this monument? Perhaps the society?

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Dont know anything really. I plan to visit it soon for kicks.

Ive heard a rumor that it is aRosicrucian monument.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rosicrucian