Jambi time sigs and polyrhythm

[Noche_Oscura]

I thought this was pretty cool. People haven't posted on this yet, as far as I can tell, so here I go, in case you were wondering about how complex this song actually is.

Obvious first, the song is written in 9, let's call it 9/8, except for Adams solo (6/4, respective to 9/8), and the "Shine down benevolent song" section (9/4, respectively). Pretty blatant, right?

Next step, the sub-divisions and polyrhythm: the beginning (keep in mind it's in 9) is in 3+2+2+2, all of the band with this rhythm. after this the guitar goes into a 2+2+2+3 groove, and the drums comes in w/ 3+3+3, then maynard comes in with 3+2+2+2. The bass comes in with the 3+3+3, except each three section is divided into two instead of three. This creates an 8th note over triplet feel with the adam and maynard. They all go together like this. As the song progresses, danny and maynard switch back and forth among all of this subdivision combination.
Also, the 9/4 part is subdivided into 5+4.

Polyrhythm:
After the 9/4 part, adam comes back in with the 2+2+2+3, danny w/ 3+3+3, Justin w/ the eighth notes over danny's triplets, and finally maynard's "breath in union" comes in with 3+2+2+2. This all happens simultaneously, and they line every nine beats. All parts of the band eventually conform to maynards rhythm. funny how the band's polyrhythm's COME INTO UNION at this point and the lyrics are "BREATHE IN UNION".

[InsolentBystander]

I wish I had this kind of knowledge of time signatures and polyrhythms! That’s a very cool find.

[iAMtheMA!]

the intro riff marks "breathe in union" as well. try repeating that rhythm throughout the entire track, you may come to revelation.

keep it up, Noche_Oscura, i'm enjoying your enthusiasm. :wipes tear away: ...reminds me of a young iAMtheMA! :)

[Noche_Oscura]

the intro riff marks "breathe in union" as well. try repeating that rhythm throughout the entire track, you may come to revelation.

keep it up, Noche_Oscura, i'm enjoying your enthusiasm. :wipes tear away: ...reminds me of a young iAMtheMA! :)

Nice observation good sir. However, note that Maynards voice leading for the "verses" of the song are already in the "breathe in union" mode. You keep up the good work as well.

[Eight]

Have you ever played anything in 9/8 time? It has a really interesting feeling to it. I love that they use it in this song, it just fits some how.

[Noche_Oscura]

Yeah! I've played tons of stuff in nine, it's amazing. It lends itself over well to latin grooves and the like. I agree w/ loving how they use it in this song, it's like they're all doing their own thing, disregarding the others, but they're still moving as one unit.

[Eight]

Yeah! I've played tons of stuff in nine, it's amazing. It lends itself over well to latin grooves and the like. I agree w/ loving how they use it in this song, it's like they're all doing their own thing, disregarding the others, but they're still moving as one unit.

Yea, exactly. Its funny because before I saw this thread, I thought I was imagining the time signiture. As if somehow my mind was hearing it wrong or something.

[ramirez]

http://stashbox.org/10886/skannaa(negari0002.jpg

[ramirez]

Do you guys even know what "polyrhythm" even mean.... I bet 50% of you doesn`t



You assholes !

[ramirez]

www.mikseri.net/gp-proggis

[Jimmeny]

I think the people here do know what a polyrhythm is, but I also think I understand your point.

Noche_Obscura, what you describe as polyrhythm is infact only poly-accenting. In the bit you talk about, ALL the parts are still in 9, it's just that each 9 is being accented differently. That's not polyrhythm, strictly. As I expect you know, polyrhythm is where two different beat patterns are played simultaneously, such that the period of time they take up is the same. So, for example, a polyrhythm would be where 2 equally spaced beats and 3 equally spaced beats are played at the same time, such that beat '1' of each rhythm starts at the same time. The start of Aenima is an example of this - The intro guitar riff is twice through a '3 over 2'. (However, the guitar riff has a rest at the end, but listen when the drums come in, they explicilty depict 3 over 2).

Polyrhythm, as the term is defined, doesn't happen strictly in Jambi, but, infact, the rhythmical systems they use are in hyper-metrical form.

At 5:27, the drums drop out, and it goes into the bass riff in 9/4, but the guitar riff is repeating a 6/4, so this will match with every 2 rotations of the 9 (6 + 6 + 6 = 18, and 9+9 = 18, so 3 rotations of 6/4 match up with 2 rotations of 9/4), and this is called phasing. This is hypermetrical rather than poly-rhythm, because if it was strict polyrhythm, the 6 beats and the 9 beats would take up the same duration of time. In this case, they don't, they are rotating over each other.

The hypermetrical rotations are taken further by adding a 9/8 in the drums.... every 2 rotations of the 9/8 match up with 1 rotation of the 9/4, and every 3 rotations of the 6/4 match up with 2 rotation of the 9/4. This, of course, completely supports your idea of union and seperation.

The reason it's called hypermetre is because the repeating phrase is made up of a total of 18 crotchets. Every 18 crotches is a repeat of everything, so the hyper-metre is 18/4.

[Noche_Oscura]

I think the people here do know what a polyrhythm is, but I also think I understand your point.

Noche_Obscura, what you describe as polyrhythm is infact only poly-accenting. In the bit you talk about, ALL the parts are still in 9, it's just that each 9 is being accented differently. That's not polyrhythm, strictly. As I expect you know, polyrhythm is where two different beat patterns are played simultaneously, such that the period of time they take up is the same. So, for example, a polyrhythm would be where 2 equally spaced beats and 3 equally spaced beats are played at the same time, such that beat '1' of each rhythm starts at the same time. The start of Aenima is an example of this - The intro guitar riff is twice through a '3 over 2'. (However, the guitar riff has a rest at the end, but listen when the drums come in, they explicilty depict 3 over 2).

Polyrhythm, as the term is defined, doesn't happen strictly in Jambi, but, infact, the rhythmical systems they use are in hyper-metrical form.

At 5:27, the drums drop out, and it goes into the bass riff in 9/4, but the guitar riff is repeating a 6/4, so this will match with every 2 rotations of the 9 (6 + 6 + 6 = 18, and 9+9 = 18, so 3 rotations of 6/4 match up with 2 rotations of 9/4), and this is called phasing. This is hypermetrical rather than poly-rhythm, because if it was strict polyrhythm, the 6 beats and the 9 beats would take up the same duration of time. In this case, they don't, they are rotating over each other.

The hypermetrical rotations are taken further by adding a 9/8 in the drums.... every 2 rotations of the 9/8 match up with 1 rotation of the 9/4, and every 3 rotations of the 6/4 match up with 2 rotation of the 9/4. This, of course, completely supports your idea of union and seperation.

The reason it's called hypermetre is because the repeating phrase is made up of a total of 18 crotchets. Every 18 crotches is a repeat of everything, so the hyper-metre is 18/4.

I never heard of it described that way before. Interesting, maybe you're right. However, my wind ensemble director describes such organization of time as "polyrhythm". If you know anything about Charles Ives, he does this to a great extent in his compositions. I would greatly appreciate if you could direct me to a source that describes this hypermeter so that I can effectively correct my director.

[Noche_Oscura]

I never heard of it described that way before. Interesting, maybe you're right. However, my wind ensemble director describes such organization of time as "polyrhythm". If you know anything about Charles Ives, he does this to a great extent in his compositions. I would greatly appreciate if you could direct me to a source that describes this hypermeter so that I can effectively correct my director.

Also, according to your definition, there would be a polyrhythm between Danny and Justin, (equally spaced beats of two over three) right where Justin comes in for the first time.

I also know that we label our musical aspects differently here in the US (after all we say 6-4 instead of 4-6 to describe a second-inversion major triad).... that may have something to do with it. Our dictionary defines polyrhythm as "the simultaneous combination of contrasting rhythms in music", and this definition encompasses even the "hypermeter" that you describe.

Anyways, it's not about the definition of words here, this song is just plain amazing.

[Jimmeny]

I was mainly responding with regard ramirez post about people not knowing what 'polyrhythm' means - the minute the words become more important than the meaning, I felt it needed clearing up.

All I was pointing out was, not that you were wrong (because I perfectly understood and agreed with what you were describing), but that, since Ramirez had an issue with the word polyrhythm, some light on what polyrhythm as it is defined really means was needed.

The song, mostly, is poly-rhythmic in the way the word is put together; poly - many, rhythm - many-rhythms, but it's not polyrhythmic as the term is defined. The wikipedia page has quite a good explanation of it: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polyrhythm

Justin first comes in with Danny during the intro, and everyone is playing 3+2+2+2, so there's no polyrhythm there. But, I think what you must be referring to is the 'But I, I would wish it all away' section, and, you're right, Justin is playing 2 over the division of 3. That is polyrhythmic in the defined sense, and I stand corrected about there being no polyrhythm in this song.

The rest of the song, as I am pointing out only by means to clarify, is not 'polyrhythm' if we're taking 'polyrhythm' as a defined and usuable term. It uses poly-accenting and hypermetrical systems.

My third year dissertation was actually on the subject of odd rhythm and metre systems, and I found it very hard to get alot of information on hypermetre. You'll need to refer your ensemble director to the book 'Musical Form and Musical Performance' by Edward Cone. Essentially, a hypermetre is defined as 'a grouping of measures that has a structure similar to that of a measure itself in terms of its accent structure.' This theory is purely a matter of perception, it relates only to how we perceive the intonation of riffs and greater structures outside the bar lines.

[morgoth's shadow]

i know what a polyrhythm is

[Jimmeny]

That's cool.

[ramirez]

i know what a polyrhythm is

I do know what polyrhythms mean . I was jus poiniting a fact that some of you assholes doesn`t !

[iAMtheMA!]

i probably should've done something a bit more contructive with my time, alas...


(keep in mind that i'm not concerned with time signatures atm, but if anyone wants to add something, please, feel free)

at first, i was curious if the complicated mess right after "then i might as well be gone" repeated at all. and indeed it does. after figuring out that the section consisted of only two durations (note and dotted-note) i knew i had to subdivide the beat - no big deal. i ended up with a repeat of 27 beats from 3:41. a very interesting riff, 27 + 27 = 54, check it out:


3:41 3:48 3:55
. . . - . . - - . - - . . . - . . - - . - - \\\\
1~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~2~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ~~~~
27 27 (4)

. . . - . . - - . - -
. . . - . . - - . - - \\\\
123456789012345678901234567


once i got that done, i continued onto the "crash landing" section at 3:56. it's easy to notice the repeated structure here:

- - . . .
123456789012


two dotted-notes and three (regular) notes. it looks like it could relate, but did this new pattern actually transfer from the previous 27-beat riff? well, it turns out that this pattern can only be found if you look at the entire 54-beat section. within that section, our new riff is actually made up of the last 6 beats of the first riff, and the first 6 beats on the repeat:

3:41 3:48 3:55
. . . - . . - - . - - . . . - . . - - . - - \\\\
1~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~2~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ~~~~
123456123456
^^^^^^^^^^^^
- - . . .
1~~~~~2~~~~~
21 12 21 (4)


i'm trying to put meaning to it within the context of the track, but there's nothing too convincing to report on atm. what do you think?

[tempathy]

ramirez go away

[Liam]

http://stashbox.org/10886/skannaa(negari0002.jpg

interesting contribution.