Still think Maynard's not a Catholic?

[phatfela12]

Alright all you people who think that Maynard isn't a Christian or at least believes or respects some Christian doctrines, I'm going to give you the final argument. We have already heard him refer to Father and Angels in Right in Two, we heard Christianity strewn all over Wings for Marie (so much that I need not even cite), and you guys still didn't believe. Well I don't think anybody ever caught Christianity in Jambi....

Allow me to first cite the Bible:

Gospel of Thomas, Verse 22:

"When you make the two one...then you will enter the kingdom."

Gospel of Thomas, Verse 106:

"When you make the two one, you will become the sons of man."


Now Maynard in Jambi:

"Shine down upon the severed, shine on until the two become one."

This two becoming one is actually a theme that is seen throughout the album!


Clearly it comes from Jesus Christ's words.


So now let's hear all your rebuttles...."Oh, it's just a metaphor, he doesn't really mean it" (heard that one...it doesnt make sense). Or...what? Christianity is all throughout the album, even where the song doesn't involve his mother! I think that's the most important thing here. Everybody kept saying oh, it's just on his mother's song b/c she was a devout Christian. Welll...it's NOT just on his mother's song. Maynard buddy if you're reading this...I hear ya, I'm not in denial.

[weathermantom]

Well yes, Maynard does have a sort of theme going with Thomas (see APC song). However, he doesn't seem to be criticizing the bible or religion in general in that song, just using the ideas as a tool (heh, punny) to get across his point. On the other hand, Thomas is the Doubting one...

[notregistered]

just because he's cracked open a bible doesn't mean he's a catholic. it is entirely possible to have some knowledge of a religion without being part of it. he's just educated. I think you're just trying to make maynard out to be a catholic just because you are.

[Confield]

Maynard is a Catholic, and a dedicated alchemist.

[dusanm]

What about chapel of sacred mirrors :)

[DON IOTAE]

Alright all you people who think that Maynard isn't a Christian or at least believes or respects some Christian doctrines, I'm going to give you the final argument. We have already heard him refer to Father and Angels in Right in Two, we heard Christianity strewn all over Wings for Marie (so much that I need not even cite), and you guys still didn't believe. Well I don't think anybody ever caught Christianity in Jambi....

Allow me to first cite the Bible:

Gospel of Thomas, Verse 22:

"When you make the two one...then you will enter the kingdom."

Gospel of Thomas, Verse 106:

"When you make the two one, you will become the sons of man."


Now Maynard in Jambi:

"Shine down upon the severed, shine on until the two become one."

This two becoming one is actually a theme that is seen throughout the album!


Clearly it comes from Jesus Christ's words.


So now let's hear all your rebuttles...."Oh, it's just a metaphor, he doesn't really mean it" (heard that one...it doesnt make sense). Or...what? Christianity is all throughout the album, even where the song doesn't involve his mother! I think that's the most important thing here. Everybody kept saying oh, it's just on his mother's song b/c she was a devout Christian. Welll...it's NOT just on his mother's song. Maynard buddy if you're reading this...I hear ya, I'm not in denial.

yet another example of a mildly amusing post...

[El Shaggy]

He also references the devil, psychadelic drugs and other evils, he must also be a satanist! but how can one be BOTH!

A good christian would be trying to convert others, i dont think Maynard the Catholic and Danny the Masonic sacred geometrist would last long together. And you being a "good christian" phatfela are simply trying to push your beliefs onto us like you've instructed though your religious doctrine. but don't worry, we push back.

[phatfela12]

Maynard is a Catholic, and a dedicated alchemist.

yeah! I'll bet ya this guy is serious. I know for sure he's really into alchemism.

You see, it's you uneducated people that have these stereotypes about Christianity that make all these judgements and find it impossible for Maynard to be Christian. Even Catholocism itself is such a massive institution with so many different types of followers. Just because he doesn't seem like the proper Catholic priest that you all are referring to doesn't mean shit.

And ahh yes, we're back to the good old "he's just using it to express himself" like all you use as your denial. Well dude, you don't use things to express yourself unless you have an interest in them, or believe in them. Especially in deeply personal songs such as this one. He's not gonna go "hmm...how can I get this point across...oh that verse in the Bible sounds good" without actually developing some taste for the Bible and hence become religious.

And he's not going to use Christianity to express himself over and over again in his music and then look back and say "wow, I sure did use Christianity a lot...that's funny." It's the repetitiveness that really drives it home that these things really really mean something to him and he's not, as you say, just using them to "express his emotions" which are not Christian emotions. Because they are.

PS I'm not Christian. Just pointing out the obvious.

[tuck]

yeah! I'll bet ya this guy is serious. I know for sure he's really into alchemism.

You see, it's you uneducated people that have these stereotypes about Christianity that make all these judgements and find it impossible for Maynard to be Christian. Even Catholocism itself is such a massive institution with so many different types of followers. Just because he doesn't seem like the proper Catholic priest that you all are referring to doesn't mean shit.
Its certainly not impossible for Maynard to be a Christian and still cuss and talk about drugs etc (ever been to an AA/NA meeting?), but alluding to Christian images is not proof that the man IS a Christian. Afterall isnt it possible that he uses Christian imagery and is still NOT a christian? Of course. Your argument that someone who uses Christian imagery is a Christian is no good.

And ahh yes, we're back to the good old "he's just using it to express himself" like all you use as your denial. Well dude, you don't use things to express yourself unless you have an interest in them, or believe in them. Especially in deeply personal songs such as this one. He's not gonna go "hmm...how can I get this point across...oh that verse in the Bible sounds good" without actually developing some taste for the Bible and hence become religious.
Interest and curiosity is by no means proof that the man believes in Christianity. I had a philospohy professor who was devoutly agnostic and I have never seen anyone go through Christian doctrine/philosophy with more interest. This doesnt however make him a Christian. He will tell you himself he is agnostic. No need to go with psychobabble and say people are in denial. If anyone is in denial its you.

Oh and doesnt it say somewhere in the bible that Satan himself can quote the Bible and use it for his own purposes?

And he's not going to use Christianity to express himself over and over again in his music and then look back and say "wow, I sure did use Christianity a lot...that's funny." It's the repetitiveness that really drives it home that these things really really mean something to him and he's not, as you say, just using them to "express his emotions" which are not Christian emotions. Because they are. You are right. It was intentional to use Christian imagery, but again why assume its because he's a Christian? There are many artists that use Christian imagery that arent themselves Christian. Its powerful stuff and conjures up a lot of emotions in people (see your posts as evidence). But couldnt it be that the man was paying homage to a woman who he loved dearly and was a Christian? I dont think the man is going to out and out condemn Christianity anymore, I think that is the only thing that is obvious.

PS I'm not Christian. o'rly? Judas, this caveat doesnt make your argument anymore correct.

[toolratio]

I´m almost certain that Maynard is a pantheïst. He does believe in some kind of god (yes I´m an atheist, that´s why i can´t get myself to write god with a capital), while he refers to that in his comment on the Judith videoclip. He states that the line "fuck your god" doesn´t refer to THE god, but her god (and Judith is off course Maynard´s mother, who believes in a Christian god). He also states his interpretation of the bible, that the only sentence which has any meaning (to him) is "In the beginning there was Jehova". This sentence refers to an unconditional love (Maynard explains that the word Jehova can be interpeted as love), which is god (according to Maynard). To me this is some kind of pantheism.

As for Jambi I think it refers to the cleansing of the soul. Which can also be found in the theories of alchemy, Gnosticism, and not only in Christianity.

So no I don´t think Maynard is a Catholic

[swampyfool]

Alright, troll. How many threads are you going to post trying to assert Maynard's Catholicism for him? I'm not even going to quote your bs, because once was enough- I don't see the need to litter this forum with it repeatedly. Suffice it to say that your characterization of "WFM/10KD" as THE songs for his mother on this album seems severely short-sighted. As you have aparently forgotten, the name of the album is "10,000 Days," and that kind of shelters the entire album under the umbrella of Judith. I'm not saying that every song on the album is writen for Maynard's mother, but many of them have layers of meaning that really do relate to the years of personal struggle that Maynard endured between the ages of eleven and thirty-eight due to his mother's prolonged illness. Also, I think that you would do well to remember that Maynard spent the first eleven years of his life under the tutelage of a devout Christian, and artists tend to use what they know when conveying emotion. Myself, I am like the professor mentioned in an earlier post. I do not believe in Christian doctrine, yet I do not dismiss it entirely. The bible does have some positive things to say, and one can quote it to illustrate one's own points without asserting one's belief in oppressive dogma. Seriously dude, are you still waiting for red and yellow to come to be? Black and white sucks, and the world is much more confusing yet interesting; terrifying yet inspiring place once you invite the paradox of color to tint your perspective. WAKE UP!

[paraflux]

Making references to christian symbols does not a christian make. I do it all the time, so do you, simply by saying, "oh my god!" The logic here is the same, by saying Oh my god, I must believe in god, making me a christian.

[hushypushy]

This two becoming one is actually a theme that is seen throughout the album!


Clearly it comes from Jesus Christ's words.

Track 3 (http://www.amazon.com/Spice-Girls/dp/B000000WCA). Clearly Maynard is a Spice Girls fan.

[Travis]

The Gospel of Thomas has been officially denounced by the catholic church as heretical.

[toolratio]

Alright, troll.
Thank you very much for your quick judgement.

You really think I was going to troll all the way through this forum? First of all I don't have the time. Second of all, why would I?

But How many threads are you going to post trying to assert Maynard's Catholicism for him?
Again pointing your finger, you don't have any argument do you?

I'm not even going to quote your bs, because once was enough- I don't see the need to litter this forum with it repeatedly.
Again pointing your finger and blaming the other. How many times did I post.... 3 times? Man you're a little paranoid over there.....

Suffice it to say that your characterization of "WFM/10KD" as THE songs for his mother on this album seems severely short-sighted. As you have aparently forgotten, the name of the album is "10,000 Days,"
Yes, the reference to the 27 years his mother was paralyzed.

and that kind of shelters the entire album under the umbrella of Judith. I'm not saying that every song on the album is writen for Maynard's mother, but many of them have layers of meaning that really do relate to the years of personal struggle that Maynard endured between the ages of eleven and thirty-eight due to his mother's prolonged illness. Also, I think that you would do well to remember that Maynard spent the first eleven years of his life under the tutelage of a devout Christian, and artists tend to use what they know when conveying emotion.
I was christian for 16 years. But I don't need it to express my emotions. In Maynard's case I do get it. In the song 10,000 days it really is logical to show his emotions with christian symbols. This song is for his mother and he is speaking her language guiding her to where she always wanted to be after her life. That's the way I see it. She is still his mother and I think it is a great thing he did by praying for her to go to heaven. Because he wants her to go to the place she always wanted to be. He wants her to be happy. But he is also critical. Don't forget the line: "Look Him in the eye, look Him in the eye, and tell Him:I never lived a lie, never took a life, but surely saved one." Which can also be seen as a comment on her devout Christianity and devout Christianity as a whole.

But as I said before, in the case of Jambi I think the whole devil/angel thing is a metaphor for his inner fight because of the illness of his mother and becoming a good dad for his son.
Myself, I am like the professor mentioned in an earlier post. I do not believe in Christian doctrine, yet I do not dismiss it entirely. The bible does have some positive things to say, and one can quote it to illustrate one's own points without asserting one's belief in oppressive dogma. Seriously dude, are you still waiting for red and yellow to come to be? Black and white sucks, and the world is much more confusing yet interesting; terrifying yet inspiring place once you invite the paradox of color to tint your perspective. WAKE UP!
The bible certainly has some positive things to say. If you don't take it to literally. But the bible can also make people do very stupid things. Like spreading false information like Intelligent Design and claiming the truth. It is then when the mind stops functioning.

Really I'm a lot more awake than you think. I'm not against believing. I'm not against god, I'm not against convictions, as long as it stays healthy. When some of us tend to claim the truth by stating that their belief is the truth, we all must wake up.

Btw I don't believe in god, but I'm an agnost on afterlife. I just don't believe there is a god, devil, hell or heaven (and I have my reasons for that, which comes from a rational approach on every origin of every religious story). As for the other options, who knows.... So I'm quite colored I think ;)

[morethanmusic]

first off, my lonely friend, who cares? well...us apparently; oh well. next, the album, in many ways, seems a tribute to Maynard's mother, whom as we all know was... you guessed it. Perhaps the references are to/about/respecting her, and her beliefs.
Out.

[toolratio]

first off, my lonely friend, who cares? well...us apparently; oh well. next, the album, in many ways, seems a tribute to Maynard's mother, whom as we all know was... you guessed it. Perhaps the references are to/about/respecting her, and her beliefs.
Out.
My lonely friend, I don't know who cares, maybe you? You feel the need to react, so you care somehow.

But don't get me wrong, I do totally agree with your statements on the tribute to his mother and respecting her views. I think it is great.

As for Jambi, it's a song with some many layers and many meanings. But it isn't
necessarily about being a Catholic.

Peace out.

[El Shaggy]

Thank you very much for your quick judgement.
Again pointing your finger and blaming the other. How many times did I post.... 3 times? Man you're a little paranoid over there.....


I think you may be a bit paranoid, i think PryedOpen was addressing the OP, not you dude.

[toolratio]

I think you may be a bit paranoid, i think PryedOpen was addressing the OP, not you dude.

Me bad. I'm sorry.

Sorry PryedOpen. Just scroll past my post please.

[morethanmusic]

My lonely friend, I don't know who cares, maybe you? You feel the need to react, so you care somehow.

But don't get me wrong, I do totally agree with your statements on the tribute to his mother and respecting her views. I think it is great.

As for Jambi, it's a song with some many layers and many meanings. But it isn't
necessarily about being a Catholic.

Peace out.

Right... I am intrigued by the debate...that is why after posing the question "who cares?" I said us, which includes me...

What was next...oh yes agreeing with me, right on.

And as for Jambi, if u think that it doesn't have to do with being Catholic then there is no chicken between us. I was adressing those who claim he has became Catholic/Christian/essentially a hypocrtite (u may not have said it, but it is implied), the song may have nothing or everything to do with religion, how the hell should I know, personally, I don't get that vibe, but for the times when Maynard does reference christian images/sayings...there prolly is a reason, and that reason is def not he is a Catholic.

Peace in.

[littlejason]

for the gusto on debunking this 'uses christian allusions so he must be christian' thing:

Sure using these things shows an interest, i have an interest in all religions i allude to them often. But, look a German industrial band by the name of E Nomine.

All of E Nomine's songs are based in Christian/Catholic texts. The band has often been open about being very much NOT Christian/Catholic. They just like the story.

And who's to say that a band, or even just a lyricist, can't write an album with a theme of Christianity as its symbolism without believing in the doctrines?

And even if Maynard DID decide to become Christian...........so? As long as he's not going about and pillaging the land all Crusades style, or touching little boys, or doing generally bad things that Christians often do...what the hell does it matter? There's a lot of Christians who are actually VERY good people.

If somebody wants to believe, let 'em believe, sure i may not agree but who the hell am i to say if they're right or wrong?

[notregistered]

Maynard doesn't like organized religion in general. Even if he was a christian, why would he be a catholic out of all the sects of christianity? he uses the christian imagery in wings to honor his mom. his mom was a devout christian who always believed in god, even after being paralyzed. she didn't just believe in god when it
was easy or convient for her. maynard feels a lot of people in church are hypocrites who pick and choose what parts of the bible they feel is most convient for them. he admires her unwavering faith.

http://toolshed.down.net/articles/index.php?action=view-article&id=November_2001--Ontarion.html

Prof: You seem to have a rather scathing view of Christianity.


M.: My views against Christianity or religion in general are
directed towards the 'middle men'-those who are in power
and use religion as a market force by which to manipulate
human beings for their own personal gain.


Prof: Were there personal experiances in your life in which
you witnessed first account cases of hypocrisy in Christianity?


M: I was raised a Southern Baptist. I witnessed first-hand the
hypocrisy of this particular form of Christianity. But it was a
gradual thing. As I got older, I began to see people claiming
one set of beliefs and acting in ways which directly opposed
those views.

[paraflux]

The Gospel of Thomas has been officially denounced by the catholic church as heretical.

Of course it has. Why admit that they deliberately de-canonized it because of its content?

[paraflux]

yeah! I'll bet ya this guy is serious. I know for sure he's really into alchemism.

You see, it's you uneducated people that have these stereotypes about Christianity that make all these judgements and find it impossible for Maynard to be Christian. Even Catholocism itself is such a massive institution with so many different types of followers. Just because he doesn't seem like the proper Catholic priest that you all are referring to doesn't mean shit.
Thanks for calling me uneducated.

And ahh yes, we're back to the good old "he's just using it to express himself" like all you use as your denial. Well dude, you don't use things to express yourself unless you have an interest in them, or believe in them. Especially in deeply personal songs such as this one. He's not gonna go "hmm...how can I get this point across...oh that verse in the Bible sounds good" without actually developing some taste for the Bible and hence become religious.
1 Corinthians 9:20
To the Jews I became like a Jew, to win the Jews. To those under the law I became like one under the law (though I myself am not under the law), so as to win those under the law.

So I imagine he said hmmmm, how can I get this point across... oh I will use familiar images to do it.

Im not saying he has no respect for the idea behind christianity, but to call him a christian would be to use the term so loosely that even I would be one.

And he's not going to use Christianity to express himself over and over again in his music and then look back and say "wow, I sure did use Christianity a lot...that's funny." It's the repetitiveness that really drives it home that these things really really mean something to him and he's not, as you say, just using them to "express his emotions" which are not Christian emotions. Because they are.

PS I'm not Christian. Just pointing out the obvious.
You're pointing out the surface.

[rintoot]

who cares if he is or not? well...obviously i do because im in this thread..but after thinking of it, so what? even if he is a christian, at least hes not one of the blind ones, hes a smart intelligent guy either way and has explored most facets of religion....his beliefs dont have to match ours

[paraflux]

Yeah, this point could go one way or the other and not make a damn bit of difference.

[Travis]

Of course it has. Why admit that they deliberately de-canonized it because of its content?

Did they know it existed before it was discovered in Nag Hammadi?

[paraflux]

ahhh, fock

I dont know, I suppose it's possible but there's no reason to think that they did know. Good call.

[swampyfool]

Me bad. I'm sorry.

Sorry PryedOpen. Just scroll past my post please.

Yeah, I was addressing that "Phat" bastard, not you. Apology accepted.

[phatfela12]

I'm enjoying the philosophical debate.

I see that we've begin to move past the question of whether or not Maynard is a religious person, and on to the question of whether or not religion is good. This is good. Then we realize what's affecting our judgement of whether is he Christian. To state my opinion (which will obviously be countered), I think religion, uninfected by all the crap that has brought violence and greed to it, is the one of the most profound things in our existence. It is the sanctifying of life.

Now on deciding whether or not he is religious...let us ask what could he do to make us believe he is religious? Anything? If all this symbolism and Christian themes in APC and all over Tool since the beginning (culiminating in 10,000 days) does not mean a damn thing, is there anything that would? Would he have to explicitly state, "I believe Jesus Christ to be the savior!" for us to take a hint. Only if we are ignorant. In my opinion, when you call God "Father," that is a very good sign. Let me take a poll...how many of us would call God Father? Okay, even in poetry, how many of us would refer to Him as Father? Of the secularists...not many.

Now try this...let go of all your preconceptions. Let go of your rationalizations, your overthinking which "separates the body from the mind" and is "leaving opportunities behind." Come with me and picture this: You have a man who for his whole life is surrounded by Christianity by his mother and subconciously maybe he's interested in it, but for the most part he is strongly against it. Then his beloved mother dies and he is still against it. But then, maybe a year or so later, he has a vision. He sees Jesus Christ and the Trinity and then bam. Revelation. Insight. Outer-body experience. Thoughts flash through his head. Judith wasn't ignorant and submissive. Judith knew the truth and Judith was put here for a reason...to potentially endure all the trials and tribulations and become an angel. Things are flashing through his mind, in disbelief, and he runs to a calendar with a crazy idea and counts the length of time she was in a wheelchair. In disbelief, recounting it to make sure, that magic number pops out. It's the number that appears throughout the Bible, specifically in Agnostic literature (which I'm sure is why he's so interested in it. By the way, it's not necessarily heretical. It just wasn't included in the final official Bible). It's the number that the Chinese Toaists refer to for the number of things in the universe.

The number is 10,000.

Is he a believer now? Oh you betcha.

I advise all of you to listen to 10,000 Days with this in mind. Come back and tell me if it sounds a little different, a little more meaningful than someone just showing his love for his mother who passed and respecting her religion as a good moral person should. That would be cute and adorable if that were the case, but I think there's a little more going on here.

PS On a lighter note, whoever pointed out that Spice Girls song...that's some funny shit.

[paraflux]

If we have moved on past the point of whether maynard is a christian or not, it's because it doesnt matter, not because we determined the answer.

[benjamin]

Wow this is definative proof that Maynard is a Catholic.



Oh wait, the Gospel of the Thomas is actually one of the gnostic gospels and it's one that's widely deemed heretical at that (especially among Catholics.)
I find it amusing that you give so much of a shit whether or not he's Christian given that you didn't know something that freaking obvious.

EDIT: And it's obviously a metaphor. Yeah, he makes obvious references to Christian images. Those are not metaphors, those are allusions.

EDIT EDIT: And just for the record, I can say, "Jesus, give me the power to make this idiot's dick disappear," but that doesn't exactly mean I'm a Christian just because I said the word "Jesus," now does it?

.

EDIT: ...no, just. .

[swampyfool]

Try this out phatty. Have you ever met a born-again Christian? Have you ever known such to be tight-lipped about such a conversion? A person as heretical as Maynard ("Jesus Christ . . . blind me with your light," "My God's will . . . to rape you-" and that's just one song) who is born anew into Christianity tends to feel the need to be repentant. So yes, I answer your question by saying that if Maynard were to convert to Christianity, he would come right out and say that the songs of his past self were blasphemous; that he has seen the error of his heresy; that Jesus Christ is indeed the savior and the son of the lord, our god; and that he begs the heavenly father, in his infinite mercy, for forgiveness and absolution for such horrible misdeeds. Instead, he stages an April Folls' Day charade about conversion . . . Not very repentant, in my estimation.

And oh yeah. "Fetch me the Spirit, the Son, and the Father- Tell them their pillar of faith is ascended." Invertng the trinity after demanding that it be fetched, followed by a summary of God's judgement in absentia. Yes, you are right. This must indicate the respect for All-Knowing God that a Christian would have. WAKE UP! True, there is such a thing as overanalysis, but that doesn't apply to this debate. You sir, are guilty of underanalysis. Fuck separating the body from the mind- you can't do that if you are hell bent upon denying that you have a mind. It's all about the red and yellow- get over the black and white.

[benjamin]

Its certainly not impossible for Maynard to be a Christian and still cuss and talk about drugs etc (ever been to an AA/NA meeting?), but alluding to Christian images is not proof that the man IS a Christian. Afterall isnt it possible that he uses Christian imagery and is still NOT a christian? Of course. Your argument that someone who uses Christian imagery is a Christian is no good.


Interest and curiosity is by no means proof that the man believes in Christianity. I had a philospohy professor who was devoutly agnostic and I have never seen anyone go through Christian doctrine/philosophy with more interest. This doesnt however make him a Christian. He will tell you himself he is agnostic. No need to go with psychobabble and say people are in denial. If anyone is in denial its you.

Oh and doesnt it say somewhere in the bible that Satan himself can quote the Bible and use it for his own purposes?

You are right. It was intentional to use Christian imagery, but again why assume its because he's a Christian? There are many artists that use Christian imagery that arent themselves Christian. Its powerful stuff and conjures up a lot of emotions in people (see your posts as evidence). But couldnt it be that the man was paying homage to a woman who he loved dearly and was a Christian? I dont think the man is going to out and out condemn Christianity anymore, I think that is the only thing that is obvious.

o'rly? Judas, this caveat doesnt make your argument anymore correct.

LOL! ...*wipes tear from eye* ...YES!! feel the rath of tuck.
...what's with all the kitties in avatars? Bring back Rasbuetn, or THO, IMO...WTF-ftw? What does "ftw" mean??

[spacemonkeyadb]

Phatfella, your evidence is weak at best.

"...until two become one" - as has been pointed out, the Spice Girls said this too but it doesn't make them nuns.

"10,000 days" - The Japanese issue bank notes in denominations of 10,000 yen but that doesn't make my wallet Catholic.

The christian imagery used throughout the album allows Maynard to express his views exactly as I (as a non-christian) would be quite comfortable in doing. And I agree with Tuck that if Maynard really had converted in some way, he would likely come right out and say so.

[swampyfool]

THINK FOR AUTHORITY. QUESTION YOURSELF

Fucking awesome.

[brotherlordacid]

And oh yeah. "Fetch me the Spirit, the Son, and the Father- Tell them their pillar of faith is ascended." Invertng the trinity after demanding that it be fetched, followed by a summary of God's judgement in absentia. Yes, you are right. This must indicate the respect for All-Knowing God that a Christian would have.

Amen brother! (not a Christian..)
And another thing that most people ignore : Lustmord made the sound effects for 10.000 days. LUSTMORD! You know..the 'band' that made it's first live appearance since 25 years during the high mass observance by the Church of Satan. Come on people! THINK!

[tuck]

LOL! ...*wipes tear from eye* ...YES!! feel the rath of tuck.
you like it when I wrath, dont you benji?


...what's with all the kitties in avatars? Bring back Rasbuetn, or THO, IMO...all the kitties? its one kitty and its vicious. It was incahoots with the emperor and obi 'forced' himself on it..


WTF-ftw? What does "ftw" mean??

FTW = "fuck the what?" as in when you let it slip while you were drinking with your friends about that night with your chihuahua.

and here I though you was all l337 n 5|-|1T.....L0seR! :)

[toolratio]

I'm enjoying the philosophical debate.

.....some cutting.....

Now on deciding whether or not he is religious...let us ask what could he do to make us believe he is religious? Anything? If all this symbolism and Christian themes in APC and all over Tool since the beginning (culiminating in 10,000 days) does not mean a damn thing, is there anything that would? Would he have to explicitly state, "I believe Jesus Christ to be the savior!" for us to take a hint. Only if we are ignorant. In my opinion, when you call God "Father," that is a very good sign. Let me take a poll...how many of us would call God Father? Okay, even in poetry, how many of us would refer to Him as Father? Of the secularists...not many.


Well I'm enjoyin the debate too.

For me it is quite obvious Maynard does believe in something. The fact he is highly interested in alchemy is a sign. Another sign is his statement on the Judith video (on the aMotion dvd), that the "fuck your god" line is not about THE god, but Judith's god (which is the Christian god).

But to state he's religious and a Christian.... No that's way too simple. It's far more complex than that. I think he certainly was a Christian in some point of his life, I think during his childhood and his teenage years. Of course he was under influence of his mother during that period. But I can imagine that he already was a Christian in doubt in that period of his life. Growing up you find questions in your mind, which cannot be solved by any religion. The obvious facts we know about Maynard are the statements in interviews on organized religion and his critical lines on religion on the album Undertow, as well as his critical lines on Eulogy about religion. This is not a progress made in one year or a few years. I think Maynard began to doubt after his childhood and when he was building up his own life. This progress is since that time to be seen in the music Tool made. In the beginning a aggressive approach on religion with the song Opiate, then a very skeptic approach on religion on Undertow, followed by a search for a higher consciousness in himself on Aenema, followed by self-reflection and spiritual growth (but not in a religious way, it's more a spiritual growth in respecting this world around you) on Lateralus, followed by a closing of the religious chapter of his life and a critical view on today's world and his personal growth on 10,000 days. But this is what I think you can find in the progress of the music and lyrics. But I must state that this description is just my interpretation, based on the bits and pieces I know.

As for the whole Father thing, it's his way to say goodbye to his mother. He sings to her in a way she always wanted him to be. Imagine you mother was a devout Christian and she believed it untill the end. Imagine you being everything she is not, believing in much more than that Christian god. Would you sing for her in the way she always wanted you to be? Don't forget the HUMAN aspect of this all, she is and has always been his mother. He wants to show his love in a way she can understand, he wants to say goodbye and in that way show her the respect he always had for her. Maynard is so self-reflective that he understands now that all she wanted for him is to grow up happy and she always wanted the best for him. And she thought he could reach that happiness and the best things through faith. And he admires her strength in her belief above all, this is just a way of him to show respect for what she stood for untill the end. And I think he's right, it is something to respect when somebody has a faith so strong and so intense. But this of course is all my interpretation of the lyrics.

And I have a question for you: Where are the Christian symbols in APC (I have found a lot of occult symbols.... and a lot of symbols for the "divine goddess"....)? I know the line "Fuck your god" but I think it's not really Christian or is it....?

[swampyfool]

Bottom line, phatty, do some research. Maynard certainly has. Heresy DOES NOT EQUAL Christianity, and I can't think of one reference to Christianity that Maynard has made that wasn't entirely heretical.

[tuck]

As for the whole Father thing, it's his way to say goodbye to his mother. He sings to her in a way she always wanted him to be. Imagine you mother was a devout Christian and she believed it untill the end. Imagine you being everything she is not, believing in much more than that Christian god. Would you sing for her in the way she always wanted you to be? Don't forget the HUMAN aspect of this all, she is and has always been his mother. He wants to show his love in a way she can understand, he wants to say goodbye and in that way show her the respect he always had for her. Maynard is so self-reflective that he understands now that all she wanted for him is to grow up happy and she always wanted the best for him. And she thought he could reach that happiness and the best things through faith. And he admires her strength in her belief above all, this is just a way of him to show respect for what she stood for untill the end. And I think he's right, it is something to respect when somebody has a faith so strong and so intense. But this of course is all my interpretation of the lyrics.

good stuff.

[benjamin]

you like it when I wrath, dont you benji?

all the kitties? its one kitty and its vicious. It was incahoots with the emperor and obi 'forced' himself on it..




FTW = "fuck the what?" as in when you let it slip while you were drinking with your friends about that night with your chihuahua.

and here I though you was all l337 n 5|-|1T.....L0seR! :)

You're a guru to my e-sav-less-ass. I just knew after that OP, someone would end up mopping the floor with this perspective, I love that it was you...amung a few others.

One cat in your avatar(tm)...but like, one THOUSAND "kitty" avatar(tm)(s) per thread!...lol

avatar(tm)...
I just heard on, "bbc religious jarg-fri...", some shit about "Avatarizm" -an online religion of sorts...?...dunno, this guy was talkin bout social interaction on the net n stuff...inter-ACTION!!....

Difference tween avatar and guru?? ...anyone, you've three hours...

[morethanmusic]

I'm enjoying the philosophical debate.

I see that we've begin to move past the question of whether or not Maynard is a religious person, and on to the question of whether or not religion is good. This is good. Then we realize what's affecting our judgement of whether is he Christian. To state my opinion (which will obviously be countered), I think religion, uninfected by all the crap that has brought violence and greed to it, is the one of the most profound things in our existence. It is the sanctifying of life.

Now on deciding whether or not he is religious...let us ask what could he do to make us believe he is religious? Anything? If all this symbolism and Christian themes in APC and all over Tool since the beginning (culiminating in 10,000 days) does not mean a damn thing, is there anything that would? Would he have to explicitly state, "I believe Jesus Christ to be the savior!" for us to take a hint. Only if we are ignorant. In my opinion, when you call God "Father," that is a very good sign. Let me take a poll...how many of us would call God Father? Okay, even in poetry, how many of us would refer to Him as Father? Of the secularists...not many.

Now try this...let go of all your preconceptions. Let go of your rationalizations, your overthinking which "separates the body from the mind" and is "leaving opportunities behind." Come with me and picture this: You have a man who for his whole life is surrounded by Christianity by his mother and subconciously maybe he's interested in it, but for the most part he is strongly against it. Then his beloved mother dies and he is still against it. But then, maybe a year or so later, he has a vision. He sees Jesus Christ and the Trinity and then bam. Revelation. Insight. Outer-body experience. Thoughts flash through his head. Judith wasn't ignorant and submissive. Judith knew the truth and Judith was put here for a reason...to potentially endure all the trials and tribulations and become an angel. Things are flashing through his mind, in disbelief, and he runs to a calendar with a crazy idea and counts the length of time she was in a wheelchair. In disbelief, recounting it to make sure, that magic number pops out. It's the number that appears throughout the Bible, specifically in Agnostic literature (which I'm sure is why he's so interested in it. By the way, it's not necessarily heretical. It just wasn't included in the final official Bible). It's the number that the Chinese Toaists refer to for the number of things in the universe.

The number is 10,000.

Is he a believer now? Oh you betcha.

I advise all of you to listen to 10,000 Days with this in mind. Come back and tell me if it sounds a little different, a little more meaningful than someone just showing his love for his mother who passed and respecting her religion as a good moral person should. That would be cute and adorable if that were the case, but I think there's a little more going on here.

PS On a lighter note, whoever pointed out that Spice Girls song...that's some funny shit.

read Letter to A Christian Nation by Sam Hariss. Not just you, I recommend it to everyone, especially those religious. It is time we stopped being sensitive and started speaking out... I know many of you think that it is the radicals who have "hijacked" religion, whether it be Christain, Muslim, etc, but the reality is religion fosters, radicals, produces them. When is the last time you heard of a radical Atheist starting a war because you disagree with his/her god.

[benjamin]

read Letter to A Christian Nation by Sam Hariss. Not just you, I recommend it to everyone, especially those religious. It is time we stopped being sensitive and started speaking out... I know many of you think that it is the radicals who have "hijacked" religion, whether it be Christain, Muslim, etc, but the reality is religion fosters, radicals, produces them. When is the last time you heard of a radical Atheist starting a war because you disagree with his/her god.

Upon reading this, I pledge 24 hours of posting silence...in honorable respect and agreement.

[DON IOTAE]

ok, so i finally read the whole thread, and i must say that im intrigued. intrigued by the fact that the thread evolved despite phatty's n00bish deductions... i guess he did make some interesting points, but the brilliant posts here belong to tuck, toolratio, Success, and morethanmusic. truly a joy to read your posts.

I think this thread evolved in part cuz we're somewhat fascinated by the prospect of Nardo actually being christian. but i, as most of you, don't think so. but i do believe that he believes in something, though; and the evolution through his songwriting (as one of you explained very nicely) is a beautiful process to observe which has a lot of truth to it.

So, while the incident of Nardo being or not christian has no major effects on my view of Tool's music, talking about this has brought on great insight into Tool's evolution (lyrically speaking). So,

cheers.

[phatfela12]

And I have a question for you: Where are the Christian symbols in APC (I have found a lot of occult symbols.... and a lot of symbols for the "divine goddess"....)? I know the line "Fuck your god" but I think it's not really Christian or is it....?

Well there are four songs on Mer de Noms that deal with Christianity....Magdalena (about the contraversial prostitute in the Bible), Rose (very much a Christian-oriented song though I haven't yet deciphered its whole meaning), and of course Thomas and Judith. Also the sexual theme of the Hollow reminds me of Augistine. At this point the songwriter is still very angry and in disbelief of many Christian values...which is evident in songs like Judith and Thomas. But on this APC record he is continuing his deep interest and emotional attachment to Christianity that is present in all of his work. Me being a Tool fan for many years, it has taken a lot of research and understanding of Christianity to better understand much of Tool's lyrics. So at the point of this album he is still outwardly against Christianity but he is continuing his large preoccupation with the religion. It wouldn't be until Tool's 10,000 Days (2006) that we begin to see a fuller Christian embracement.

I have to say that MJK's work has really introduced me to Christianity, as I did not grow up Christian like most people in the US it seems like. After listening to the records and hearing religious people speak I would constantly undergo an "Ohhhh, so that's where that comes from. Okay, now the lyrics make sense" sort of reaction. One example of this is when I started reading The Da Vinci Code and learned about the "equal-armed cross" that was the symbol for the Priori of Sion, a secret Christian sect that was (and maybe still is) in aversion to the Roman Catholocism of the masses. I quickly remembered the symbol on the Lateralus album booklet and made the connection.

Maynard Keenan, great Christian thinker, if that's the least we can all conclude.

PS Looks like 10,000 Days might be making the list for the "Top 100 Christian Albums of 2006" which will be out soon.

[notregistered]

you still haven't answered my question as to why he would be a christian out of all of the sects of christianity. he has spefically said how much he dislikes the catholic chruch.
why are you so sure he's christian? You realize there is no such thing as the priory of sion, right? it was made up. maynard references christianity. that's it. I don't think maynard has a "preoccupation" with christianity. I think you do. what do you mean present in ALL of his work? and what do you mean by "maynard keenan, great christian thinker, if that's the least we can all conclude". you're acting like you won the argument.

also...
http://toolshed.down.net/articles/index.php?action=view-article&id=April_1994--RayGun.html
*JESUS*
MK: Fuck that guy-2000 year old Arabian folk tale should be buried.

[DON IOTAE]

Where are the Christian symbols in APC?
...Rose (very much a Christian-oriented song though I haven't yet deciphered its whole meaning)...

.

PS: at least be smart enough to not post those that don't support your theory...

[987]

Why does everyone believe that one must be a christian, a catholic, a muslim, or belong to any denomination for that matter, to believe in God?

[Syrus]

I think that the lyrics of WFM/10KDays clearly show that Maynard is not "Christian", at least not in the sense that many people on this board seem to want to believe that he is(a need that members of organized religion seem to have, which I will never understand). If you're Christian, and a Tool fan, would it somehow upset you if Maynard was not a Christian? Why is it so important to you for your enjoyment of the music? Or to repect them as artists?

"Set as I am in my ways and my arrogance,
Burden of proof tossed upon the believers.
You were the witness, my eyes, my evidence,
Judith Marie, unconditional one."

MAYNARD IS SET IN HIS WAYS, TOSSING THE BURDEN OF PROOF UPON THE BELIEVERS. How else could this be argued???????? This lyric alone I think shows that he is not "Christian". How many other ways can he write lyrics to show this ("ignorant fibbers in the congregation") I'm not saying that he is not spiritual, just not "Christian" in the sense that his mother was.

One of the things that this song is about is to thank his mother for having faith in him,(you were my witness,....etc), even though they could never agree on matters of spirituality (see "Judith"). I think that Maynard thought so highly of his mother (he believed in her belief) that he suggests in 10KDays that she should "shake her fist at the gate", have someone "fetch her the spirit, the son and the father" and demand that she get her wings.

Doesn't anyone else see the disdain he has for the so-called "spirit, son, and father" in this lyric? These are not the words of a devout god-fearing christian!!!!!!!!! He is basically saying that if there is a god ("should you see your maker's face tonight"), his mother deserves to be equal ("look him in the eye"), and demand her own divinity for all the suffering that she endured for her god in her life ("give me my wings!!!").

How could these lyrics possibly be twisted to show that MJK is a humble god-fearing christian?!? He sees his mother as truly divine above everyone else, a notion that most christians would probably consider sacrilege.

As MJK used to say in live introductions to the song "Opiate" on tour, he thinks that individuals like Jesus and Buddha were people that had some genuinely good things to say, but it was the powers of organized religion that used and twisted these teachings for their own gain.

Looking back at this post, I'm a little hesitant to hit the "reply" button, as it's not my intention to offend anyone of any faith. I don't want to start a rant on organized religion, but it just angers me when religious people feel the need to convert others and spread their dogma, or classify people's beliefs into different denominations. Wouldn't it be nice if every religion could just agree that they're all worshipping the same "god", and also respect those who don't believe that there is a god? (Naive, I know) If it's what works for you, then great! Use it for your own personal healing, or whatever, but please keep it to yourself!

Syrus

[spacemonkeyadb]

^ I completely agree with all you say. But the people who will disagree with you (and want to believe Maynard is Christian) are the ones who do manage to twist the lyrics you mention in competely retarded ways.

[rhythmic_reflection]

Amen Syrus!
Maynard's mother was a devout Christian.
Maynard was not Christian or Catholic.

Merely to add strength to your claims:

Let's assume 2 things:
1) Maynard's lyrics actually mean something to him.
2) He's consistent.

In APC's "Judith," he swears "F*CK YOUR GOD, your Lord, your Christ. HE DID THIS... left you this way... broken down and paralyzed"
Here he refers to the stroke that paralyzed his mother for 27 years, roughly equal to 10,000 Days.

In this latest epic, Maynard sings of his mother's sincere spirituality. He still hates the religious zealots who are "blinded" by their religion. Whereas many religious people are blind and do not actually live their religious doctrines, Judith Marie Garrison (mother of Maynard James Keenan) was truly spiritual in her religion.
"You are the light and the way they only read about." Though others read about God, she literally joins Him in Heaven after living with Him in her heart while trapped in a nearly lifeless shell here on Earth.

So yes, he's obviously going to use Christian imagery. It's a f*cking 18-minute homage to his dead mother who IS Christian. And if one believes anything at all from the journey Lateralus lays out, his mother literally becomes One with God, and Maynard (though not religious) is still one with her now.

Peace to you.
~ Dave_Toms
~ Rhythmic_Reflection

[morethanmusic]

I wish I had something more profound to say, but I think collectively, we have discussed this topic (is Maynard a Hypoc...a Catholic?) at least 7 feet under. Anything further, would undoubtedly lead to the seeds of the whose-religion-is-right-if-any debate, which we have already planted, to bloom into a flourishing beast of tree. And the end we will be divided, probably right in two, but maybe into three or four sects, all of which are "right", three or four of which are definitely wrong.

Anyways I'm down...

[one with nature]

im sure maynard is a catholic even though he performed sober at one of his recent concerts. and didn't he write that song 'judith'?

christians embrace god. maynard seems to embrace 'the god', not the christian god.

shine on till the two become one means union. this is embraced by bhuddists as well as some hinus philosofies, and many non-believers. I haven't heard christians talk much about union.

[pork chops]

this song has nothing to do with religion.

[Aunt Acid]

THE MAP IS NOT THE TERRITORY!!!

Allusions to Christianity does not make one a Christian.

[The Omnipotent Lens]

Maynard was born into a southern baptist family.

[Aunt Acid]

I was born into a Christian family and I am not Christian. It is possible to change one's beliefs. If Maynard were to suddenly become a Christian again, it also doesn't mean he would choose to be Southern Baptist just because he was raised that way.

[XeuphoricXmindX]

fuck god...

[swampyfool]

fuck god...

Only if he was wearing a kryptonite condom . . .

[Inner_Eulogy]

This thread is so worthless....I'm simply done responding to the Nancy's in here claiming anything in this album or ANY Tool album is religious or that Maynard or any of the band members are for that mattter. FOOLS....people like you are the reason Tool's new logo looks like FOOL, cuz' some you you halfwits will buy into anything.

[swampyfool]

This thread is so worthless....I'm simply done responding to the Nancy's in here claiming anything in this album or ANY Tool album is religious or that Maynard or any of the band members are for that mattter. FOOLS....people like you are the reason Tool's new logo looks like FOOL, cuz' some you you halfwits will buy into anything.

In Jesus' name we prey.

[slipthru]

Maynard is not a christian, just because he uses alot of religious imagery on this album does not make him one.

[hobblegobble]

This thread is so worthless....I'm simply done responding to the Nancy's in here claiming anything in this album or ANY Tool album is religious or that Maynard or any of the band members are for that mattter. FOOLS....people like you are the reason Tool's new logo looks like FOOL, cuz' some you you halfwits will buy into anything.


Your ignorant half-assed posts are very sad...you make me sad Eulogy...just to know there are people like you out there....how sad...I hope it sucks you down...

[XeuphoricXmindX]

dont forget dry...

[Noche_Oscura]

Alright all you people who think that Maynard isn't a Christian or at least believes or respects some Christian doctrines, I'm going to give you the final argument. We have already heard him refer to Father and Angels in Right in Two, we heard Christianity strewn all over Wings for Marie (so much that I need not even cite), and you guys still didn't believe. Well I don't think anybody ever caught Christianity in Jambi....

Allow me to first cite the Bible:

Gospel of Thomas, Verse 22:

"When you make the two one...then you will enter the kingdom."

Gospel of Thomas, Verse 106:

"When you make the two one, you will become the sons of man."


Now Maynard in Jambi:

"Shine down upon the severed, shine on until the two become one."

This two becoming one is actually a theme that is seen throughout the album!


Clearly it comes from Jesus Christ's words.


So now let's hear all your rebuttles...."Oh, it's just a metaphor, he doesn't really mean it" (heard that one...it doesnt make sense). Or...what? Christianity is all throughout the album, even where the song doesn't involve his mother! I think that's the most important thing here. Everybody kept saying oh, it's just on his mother's song b/c she was a devout Christian. Welll...it's NOT just on his mother's song. Maynard buddy if you're reading this...I hear ya, I'm not in denial.

First, let me say that I cannot agree with you more on Maynard's religious views. However, it seems to me that you are taking the words of Scripture out of context. Yes, both passages have the theme of two becoming one, and this is a major theme in Jambi, Right in Two, and Lipan Conjuring. The point of the quoted passages, though, is not about two becoming one, but about the soul entering the kingdom. These three songs have absolutely nothing about entering God's kingdom, so the scripture passages are irrelevant in this context.

Also, Christianity is not the only religion that has the idea of the human soul being separated from God's unity. Buddhism believes that the anatman (or individual soul) is separated from the whole of reality and life energy because of its dependence on desire, and it is our job to purify our desires in order to unify ourselves with this life force. Likewise, Hinduism believes that at the core of every human (atman) is a part of him that is God (Brahman), and when he is able to act upon this reality in every day life, he has achieved Atman-Brahman, or oneness with God. In addition to this, don't forget about Plato's philosophy of ideas. Having said this, Tool's words in Jambi/Right in Two do not in any way point solely to Christianity/Catholicism.

If you want to see Maynards proffession to his religious beliefs, look at the title track of the album, especially the line "this little light of mine a gift you passed on to me, I'm gonna let it shine to guide you safely on your way home". It seems to me that Maynard is a Christian, not for his sake, but for the sake of his mother/ those who have suffered joyfully in their lives on earth. In other words he is giving his very life to the one whom he loves. This is a very Christian act considering that Christ's words in John 15:13 "no one has greater love than this, to lay down ones life for one's friends". Also looking at this song are the very Christian ideals of humility (collective humility, even), faith, and hope.

[Scarlett]

Maynard is not a christian, just because he uses alot of religious imagery on this album does not make him one.

Agree He read the bible So what? it doesn't mean he belives in god

[]v[edusa]

THIS IS A GOOD READ. A NON CHRISTIAN VIEW OF GOSPEL OF THOMAS



Gospel of Thomas, Verse 22:

"When you make the two one...then you will enter the kingdom."

Gospel of Thomas, Verse 106:

"When you make the two one, you will become the sons of man."


Now Maynard in Jambi:

"Shine down upon the severed, shine on until the two become one."

This two becoming one is actually a theme that is seen throughout the album!



first, id like to say that the gnostic gospels views of jesus are faaaarrr different from christian views... plus i believe they view god as being different aswell. according to the gospel of thomas god is merely the one spirit, one consciousness that is around us/in us. the gospels in the bible are more masculine tone while the gnostic gospels are feminine toned.

i myself find the gospel of thomas to be very interesting and i like how you compared those quotes with some of the lyrics

let me explain to you what those quotes mean

verse 22: "When you make the two into one, and when you make the inner like the outer and the outer like the inner, and the upper like the lower, and when you make male and female into a single one, so that the male will not be male nor the female be female, when you make eyes in place of an eye, a hand in place of a hand, a foot in place of a foot, an image in place of an image, then you will enter the kingdom."

hes referring to the lower chakras which are female and the higher chakras which is male. allow the lower self to be like "god" above. allow the 2 to become 1.

i find the book of thomas to be very interesting cause i believe its teaching you to be like jesus

according to gnostics "jesus the nazareen" means jesus who has yoga or self realisation

when jesus speaks of this "narrow gate" he is referring to the "third eye":
"Strive with earnestness to enter through the narrow door, for many, I say, will seek to enter and will not be able" Luke 13:24
"Enter through the narrow gate"Matthew 7:13

jesus also revealed himself as the master of the Third Eye chakra:
"I am the door; if any one enter in by Me, he shall be saved" John 10:9
^^^ talk about biggest misunderstanding by chirstians of all time
hes being saved cause he will be able to reach the end of spiritual ascent. hes allowing the "two [to] become one"

I believe the christian religon screwed it up by creating a masculine polarity (only allowing you to c the gospels which are in the bible now) and not bringing the male gospels and the female gospels into one.

DAMMIT why does it seem like i understand this better then christians???

[Eight]

DAMMIT why does it seem like i understand this better then christians???

Because you probably do. From what I gather, you have an open mind and have taken time to come to your own conclusions. In so doing, you are not blindly following, you are understanding.

[Inner_Eulogy]

Holy fucking christ man......JUST BECAUSE REFERENCES "TWO BECOMING ONE" ALL YOU FUCKING NAZI CHRISTIANS ARE JUMPING ALL OVER IT CLAIMING IT TO BE RELIGIOUS! FOR GOD'S SAKE, IF I SAID I WAS MAKING 2 INTO ONE REFERENCING FUCKING PEANUT BUTTER AND SOME GODDAMN JELLY...WOULD THAT BE RELIGIOUS...IDIOTS....HE'S ONLY SPEAKING METAPHORICALLY FOR ONE, SECONDLY, HE'S SPEAKING MORE IN GENERAL/BROADER TERMS: BRINGING THE SOUL AND BODY TOGETHER, THE RIGHT AND LEFT HEMISPHERE OF THE BRAIN, BRINGING BACK TOGETHER SOMETHING WITHIN HIMSELF THAT WAS SPLIT OR FORGOTTEN...PERHAPS RIGHTING SOMETHING THAT WAS WRONG. HOW ABOUT ONE OF YOU FUCKING WACKOS GO SPY ON MAYNARD FOR A FEW WEEKS AND SHOW ME A FUCKING VIDEO OF HIM GOING TO CHURCH OR READING A FUCKING BIBLE....DAMN NITWITS

[]v[edusa]

Because you probably do. From what I gather, you have an open mind and have taken time to come to your own conclusions. In so doing, you are not blindly following, you are understanding.

aww thanks.

Holy fucking christ man......JUST BECAUSE REFERENCES "TWO BECOMING ONE" ALL YOU FUCKING NAZI CHRISTIANS ARE JUMPING ALL OVER IT CLAIMING IT TO BE RELIGIOUS! FOR GOD'S SAKE, IF I SAID I WAS MAKING 2 INTO ONE REFERENCING FUCKING PEANUT BUTTER AND SOME GODDAMN JELLY...WOULD THAT BE RELIGIOUS...IDIOTS....HE'S ONLY SPEAKING METAPHORICALLY FOR ONE, SECONDLY, HE'S SPEAKING MORE IN GENERAL/BROADER TERMS: BRINGING THE SOUL AND BODY TOGETHER, THE RIGHT AND LEFT HEMISPHERE OF THE BRAIN, BRINGING BACK TOGETHER SOMETHING WITHIN HIMSELF THAT WAS SPLIT OR FORGOTTEN...PERHAPS RIGHTING SOMETHING THAT WAS WRONG. HOW ABOUT ONE OF YOU FUCKING WACKOS GO SPY ON MAYNARD FOR A FEW WEEKS AND SHOW ME A FUCKING VIDEO OF HIM GOING TO CHURCH OR READING A FUCKING BIBLE....DAMN NITWITS

as being an agnostic i found this interpretation to be pretty good about how the gospel of thomas relates to "two become one". i thought it was just as good as the other interpretations that you brought up.

unfortunately, this thread doesnt back up the fact that maynard is christian

[hobblegobble]

Inner Eulogy...i've a suggestion....go to the doctor...tell him you have a problem..ask him to write you a prescription for Ritalin.....you really friggin need it...in the worst way buddy

[Inner_Eulogy]

aww thanks.



as being an agnostic i found this interpretation to be pretty good about how the gospel of thomas relates to "two become one". i thought it was just as good as the other interpretations that you brought up.

unfortunately, this thread doesnt back up the fact that maynard is christian

I mean, I'm not saying that one cannot find similarities but, there's a big difference between being "spiritual" and being a lamb of organized religion such as christianity. I mean, who's to say what religion is correct, there are so many and they all seem to think theirs is the prevalent one of all. Allah, God, Buddha....who the fuck is anyone to say one is correct while the others are not. I think this world has really forgotten what the true intentions of real religion ever were; and I highly doubt it EVER required you to go to a church and/or convert others to believe YOUR chosen path.

[Eight]

aww thanks.



as being an agnostic i found this interpretation to be pretty good about how the gospel of thomas relates to "two become one". i thought it was just as good as the other interpretations that you brought up.

unfortunately, this thread doesnt back up the fact that maynard is christian

I'm curious though what is this gospel of thomas? It seems to make sense but I'd love to take a look for myself.

As for the topic at hand, I agree that there is no evidence for or against Maynard's religion. I also believe, as previously stated, he studies many cultures and thus uses what he learns while maintaining a certain neutrality regarding the various religions.

[hobblegobble]

Spirituality vs organized religion

[hobblegobble]

okay yes that was a very broad statement but what I am trying to say is...I believe Maynard is trying to show that there is a big difference between spirituality and organized religion. There is a very big gap and it's almost a religious taboo to be "spiritual" anymore, because that would require thinking. Just because there is a religious connotation to a song does not imply that he is "religious" (i.e christian, catholic, etc.) So, when people say "oh my god Maynard said "jesus Christ" he is Christian, that's bullshit. I'm sort of spewing shit here not really knowing if this is even on topic...

[Eight]

okay yes that was a very broad statement but what I am trying to say is...I believe Maynard is trying to show that there is a big difference between spirituality and organized religion.
There is a very big gap and it's almost a religious taboo to be "spiritual" anymore, because that would require thinking.
Just because there is a religious connotation to a song does not imply that he is "religious" (i.e christian, catholic, etc.) So, when people say "oh my god Maynard said "jesus Christ" he is Christian, that's bullshit. I'm sort of spewing shit here not really knowing if this is even on topic...

"it's almost a religious taboo to be "spiritual" anymore, because that would require thinking."

This line kills me, well said.

[hobblegobble]

Maynard is a Catholic, and a dedicated alchemist.


okay I know this was posted QUITE a while ago but I would LOVE someone to amuse..oops I mean INFORM..me of what these two things have in common...
haha....wine and catholicism right? becaaaaause...jesus drank wine??? hahahaha....

[]v[edusa]

I mean, I'm not saying that one cannot find similarities but, there's a big difference between being "spiritual" and being a lamb of organized religion such as christianity. I mean, who's to say what religion is correct, there are so many and they all seem to think theirs is the prevalent one of all. Allah, God, Buddha....who the fuck is anyone to say one is correct while the others are not. I think this world has really forgotten what the true intentions of real religion ever were; and I highly doubt it EVER required you to go to a church and/or convert others to believe YOUR chosen path.

i totally agree with u, i also think this world has forgotten the true intentions of what real religion was

as for

"I highly doubt it EVER required you to go to a church and/or convert others to believe YOUR chosen path"

huh!? r u talking to me? agnostic doesnt mean im christian. im a bit far from it really. just cause i read some books in the bible doesnt mean im christian. if you really wanna know why, i was just curious to what i was opposing. i just like to see things from both sides.

eight-
it should be in your local library or even online. this isnt really my major so i dont have much to say.

[Inner_Eulogy]

okay yes that was a very broad statement but what I am trying to say is...I believe Maynard is trying to show that there is a big difference between spirituality and organized religion. There is a very big gap and it's almost a religious taboo to be "spiritual" anymore, because that would require thinking. Just because there is a religious connotation to a song does not imply that he is "religious" (i.e christian, catholic, etc.) So, when people say "oh my god Maynard said "jesus Christ" he is Christian, that's bullshit. I'm sort of spewing shit here not really knowing if this is even on topic...

Weren't you just fucking giving me shit above for saying the exact same thing. That's exactly WHY you're a fucking idiot.

[Inner_Eulogy]

[QUOTE=lllvllledusa;1698403]
"I highly doubt it EVER required you to go to a church and/or convert others to believe YOUR chosen path"

huh!? r u talking to me? agnostic doesnt mean im christian. im a bit far from it really. just cause i read some books in the bible doesnt mean im christian. if you really wanna know why, i was just curious to what i was opposing. i just like to see things from both sides.
QUOTE]

Um, yeah..I know exactly what agnostic means. And I wasn't even referring to you anyway. I was speaking generally. And yes, I too have read up on many different religions out of sheer curiousity and I also like to be informed. That doesn't mean I'm religious, I'm actually anti-religion although, I do believe in a higher power; my path is similar to what the other guy said earlier that my beliefs aren't specific to any particular religion, just a self understanding and opinion from the religions I do know.

[hobblegobble]

wow dude...you really have something to prove don't you? go on....tell me....what is your problem other than the fact that you're ignorant and pretty much full of bullshit?

[wearethestories]

Considering he (or she) is the only poster in the last while whose posts are relevant and actually make logical sense, I'm going to award the Blue Ribbon of Winning Argumentation and Not-taking-anyone-else's-ridiculous-bullshit Award to:

Inner Eulogy


But other people, it's not like I agree with everything Inner Eulogy says, your aruguments just suck (especially the initial poster).


Though IE, I disagree with the statement that true religion never required you to go out and convert others...

It's plain through the rapid spread of all the major religions (especially the violent means through which Islam has always spread, even from its conception), that this is erroneous. Also, what person who has found the way to eternal life/enlightenment/etc. wouldn't share that with others, or, what person who understands that his God is the creator of the world and deserves praise and glory wouldn't try to tell others to praise and glorify Him?

[Inner_Eulogy]

Because you probably do. From what I gather, you have an open mind and have taken time to come to your own conclusions. In so doing, you are not blindly following, you are understanding.

EXACTLY.....this is where today's religions have gone. Sheep blindly following the herd into a den of wolves. THINK FOR YOURSELF, QUESTION AUTHORITY

[ErgotSomethingThere]

I may be jumping, or very well defacating upon, a very dead horse, but I can't help but ask why people are so polarized on this issue of whether or not Tool has converted to Christianity? It seems that the opinion is either they have completely given in to the indoctrinations of popular religion, or that they despise it. Does no one remember the concept of thinking for themself? That that concept does not shun the idea of giving into an ideology, just that you have the choice to take it or leave it.
Tool, by alluding to Christianity, are only trying to reveal that Christianity is as tied into every aspect of life as any other system of belief; whether it be Jungian Philosophy, Quantum Mechanics, Quabala, Islam, The Church of the Subgenius, or The Cult of the Son of the Great Gull. They are all systems, and they all have something valid to say. When Tool touches upon a concept tied into a system of belief it is only to show how it is connected to the numerous others that exist. The idea is to make many (or just two) into one.

[ErgotSomethingThere]

It seems that a many one of you posters are afraid to be categorized as being Christian. I think that may be the point; to challenge those afraid of being labled as something they are not in such a way as to reveal that they are only furthering this idea of seperating themselves from others. "No no no! I am not Christian. I WILL NOT STAND FOR BEING LABELED AS SUCH!!!" To which I ask, "Who the fuck cares?" Be open, do not be afraid of what others think, don't let others dictate what you see or will not see. Maybe if something repulses you, you should explore it, in order to gain understanding, insight as to why someone may subscribe, or buy into whatever it is that repulses you. Give a monkey an idea and that damn stupid monkey will split it right in two...

[ErgotSomethingThere]

EXACTLY.....this is where today's religions have gone. Sheep blindly following the herd into a den of wolves. THINK FOR YOURSELF, QUESTION AUTHORITY

Who has the time to question all authority? Do you have to learn EVERYTHING through trial and error, or can you trust the experiences of others in a way such that you may be able to further an understanding of something? Break new ground instead of retreading over the same old shit. It's kind of like crawling on top of the shoulders of giants so that you can see farther than those who came before. Maybe these ideologies exist for a reason, so that a person does not have to make stupid mistakes throughout their life in order to become wise; maybe wisdom can be given unto others by those who have already made the mistake.
It's like diving to the bottom of a vast underwater cave system. You do not have the breathe to map out every single inch of the caverns in one dive, so you surface and make a map of what you have seen thus far. Then you dive in again with a specific course in mind, get as far as you can, and then surface and add to your map. Then, suppose that you die after years of mapping out this cavern system. All that is left is the map, and that map can be used by another. They can further the exploration into the cavern, see things that you missed. It would be a miserable waste for the map to go unused.
An eye can be controlled. It can be opened. It can be closed. Our Third Eye is merely the lense through which we take in, or reject ideas. We exercise the same control over that eye as we do over the ones on our face. However, having our eyes open allows us to navigate the world around us; to have your eyes closed all of the time for no reason only leads you to run into things like a fool. It is redundant to walk around blindly when you are not, in fact, blind. Open your third eye, hear what others have to say, and try to understand why they may subscribe to have others dictate the rules that they follow. It's not slavery. It is a choice.

[Cylith]

Maynard may or may not be leaning towards Christianity. I'm guessing not.

However, as a Christian myself, I find this song to have a very strong "Christian feel" to it. I enjoy it thoroughly because of what it means to me.

If Maynard came out and officially said this song is not supposed to be about Christianity at all, it will still have a Christian meaning to me.

I'm also open to other meanings, but the Christian theme it has taken for me will likely always be on top.

[Inner_Eulogy]

Who has the time to question all authority? Do you have to learn EVERYTHING through trial and error, or can you trust the experiences of others in a way such that you may be able to further an understanding of something? Break new ground instead of retreading over the same old shit. It's kind of like crawling on top of the shoulders of giants so that you can see farther than those who came before. Maybe these ideologies exist for a reason, so that a person does not have to make stupid mistakes throughout their life in order to become wise; maybe wisdom can be given unto others by those who have already made the mistake.
It's like diving to the bottom of a vast underwater cave system. You do not have the breathe to map out every single inch of the caverns in one dive, so you surface and make a map of what you have seen thus far. Then you dive in again with a specific course in mind, get as far as you can, and then surface and add to your map. Then, suppose that you die after years of mapping out this cavern system. All that is left is the map, and that map can be used by another. They can further the exploration into the cavern, see things that you missed. It would be a miserable waste for the map to go unused.
An eye can be controlled. It can be opened. It can be closed. Our Third Eye is merely the lense through which we take in, or reject ideas. We exercise the same control over that eye as we do over the ones on our face. However, having our eyes open allows us to navigate the world around us; to have your eyes closed all of the time for no reason only leads you to run into things like a fool. It is redundant to walk around blindly when you are not, in fact, blind. Open your third eye, hear what others have to say, and try to understand why they may subscribe to have others dictate the rules that they follow. It's not slavery. It is a choice.

Go back to mapping your underwater caves. Anyways, I would agree to the extent that yes, some things are COMMON SENSE, some things are simply INNATE ABILITIES (such as breathing) but for the most part. People DO need to learn by trial and error. You could explain to a child that the fire is HOT and do not touch and COLD is cold but, until that child finally sticks his curious little finger in the fire (which IS completely unavoidable, it will happen one day) he has no frame of reference to know what the fuck hot and cold is regardless of a verbal or written description. The same goes for any trial and tribulation of life. People make mistakes and bad decisions all the time and it's all a part of a learning process. It's necessary they go through these things to become stronger people. I don't know about you but, if you want to go around and live your life according to what EVERYBODY ELSE TOLD YOU...be my guest.

[hobblegobble]

"An eye can be controlled. It can be opened. It can be closed. Our Third Eye is merely the lense through which we take in, or reject ideas. We exercise the same control over that eye as we do over the ones on our face. However, having our eyes open allows us to navigate the world around us; to have your eyes closed all of the time for no reason only leads you to run into things like a fool. It is redundant to walk around blindly when you are not, in fact, blind. Open your third eye, hear what others have to say, and try to understand why they may subscribe to have others dictate the rules that they follow. It's not slavery. It is a choice.[/QUOTE] "

In a sense, the three paragraphs in which you posted your opinion seem a little conflicting towards eachother. In one sense you are supporting one living life through others experiences if so chosen, yet the next paragraph goes on to talk about the third eye and the redundancy (is that a word? must remember to write it down...) in walking around "blindly" which in my opinion would be living life through others experiences. Maybe I read your post completely wrong but the whole mapping out the ocean and third eye and navigating blindly thing seems a bit far fetched. I don't quite understand where you are going with it.

[McButterpants]

yeah! I'll bet ya this guy is serious. I know for sure he's really into alchemism.

You see, it's you uneducated people that have these stereotypes about Christianity that make all these judgements and find it impossible for Maynard to be Christian. Even Catholocism itself is such a massive institution with so many different types of followers. Just because he doesn't seem like the proper Catholic priest that you all are referring to doesn't mean shit.

And ahh yes, we're back to the good old "he's just using it to express himself" like all you use as your denial. Well dude, you don't use things to express yourself unless you have an interest in them, or believe in them. Especially in deeply personal songs such as this one. He's not gonna go "hmm...how can I get this point across...oh that verse in the Bible sounds good" without actually developing some taste for the Bible and hence become religious.

And he's not going to use Christianity to express himself over and over again in his music and then look back and say "wow, I sure did use Christianity a lot...that's funny." It's the repetitiveness that really drives it home that these things really really mean something to him and he's not, as you say, just using them to "express his emotions" which are not Christian emotions. Because they are.

PS I'm not Christian. Just pointing out the obvious.

OK - Maynard WAS brought up as a Southern Baptist and at least his mother was a believer. (I know, I REALLY should cite here, but I can't be bothered - most people here should have read the interviews I am referring to anyway.) Using Christian language provides the context for what he is talking about.

I have never, ever heard of anything such as a 'Christian emotion' - I may be wrong, but I was under the impression that Christians are humans too and that they function somewhat similarly. Not all parts of the bible are pernicious and some parts are actually well written, and so they can be used by anyone if they are expressing the same concept. On the most 'pro-Maynard-being-a-Christian' interpretation imaginable, he likes some parts of the bible. I don't think any of the tracks that Tool have recorded would have been were Maynard religious, let alone of a mainstream variety.

It's not that Maynard doesn't seem like the proper Catholic priest that anyone here disagrees, it's to do with the rest of the Tool material that entirely lambasts religion.

WAIT! Even if, for example, a lampooning of Christ was not the INTENDED meaning of Eulogy, Maynard (let's creidt him with some intelligence after all) must have recognised it COULD be construed this way. Were he to disagree entirely with such an interpretation, do you really think he would realease such a track?

I think it's highly unlikely.

[Inner_Eulogy]

OK - Maynard WAS brought up as a Southern Baptist and at least his mother was a believer. (I know, I REALLY should cite here, but I can't be bothered - most people here should have read the interviews I am referring to anyway.) Using Christian language provides the context for what he is talking about.

I have never, ever heard of anything such as a 'Christian emotion' - I may be wrong, but I was under the impression that Christians are humans too and that they function somewhat similarly. Not all parts of the bible are pernicious and some parts are actually well written, and so they can be used by anyone if they are expressing the same concept. On the most 'pro-Maynard-being-a-Christian' interpretation imaginable, he likes some parts of the bible. I don't think any of the tracks that Tool have recorded would have been were Maynard religious, let alone of a mainstream variety.

It's not that Maynard doesn't seem like the proper Catholic priest that anyone here disagrees, it's to do with the rest of the Tool material that entirely lambasts religion.

WAIT! Even if, for example, a lampooning of Christ was not the INTENDED meaning of Eulogy, Maynard (let's creidt him with some intelligence after all) must have recognised it COULD be construed this way. Were he to disagree entirely with such an interpretation, do you really think he would realease such a track?

I think it's highly unlikely.

I think it's highly LIKELY that you need to work on your english.

[wearethestories]

Don't think Maynard's a Christian.

Inner_Eulogy should learn some tact and overall patience with those he disagrees with [even when they're not REALLY disagreeing with you, like McButters, here]. He should also probably learn to post only when relevant or insightful (jeez, Dann, you'd think for a 29 year-old you'd be slightly more mature than the teenagers who post here).

And *I THINK* I see where McButters is going, but that second paragraph is slightly muddled.

[Inner_Eulogy]

Don't think Maynard's a Christian.

Inner_Eulogy should learn some tact and overall patience with those he disagrees with [even when they're not REALLY disagreeing with you, like McButters, here]. He should also probably learn to post only when relevant or insightful (jeez, Dann, you'd think for a 29 year-old you'd be slightly more mature than the teenagers who post here).

And *I THINK* I see where McButters is going, but that second paragraph is slightly muddled.

I wasn't arguing with McButters at all and from the evidence of your last few posts directed at me, you sure seem to be pretty good in the art of misinterpretation as well. My only point above, which you AGREED with was that what he said in his post (due to scrambled english) made no sense.

[hobblegobble]

Although my arch-enemy, I would have to say I don't think Inner said much to be taken offensively here, he just told the guy to work on his english. haha.

[hobblegobble]

Though WEAR does have some great advice for Inner....

[McButterpants]

I wasn't arguing with McButters at all and from the evidence of your last few posts directed at me, you sure seem to be pretty good in the art of misinterpretation as well. My only point above, which you AGREED with was that what he said in his post (due to scrambled english) made no sense.

OoooffFF!! Inner_Eulogy, you're killing me. Some of my sentences there are beautiful.

"I don't think any of the tracks that Tool have recorded would have been were Maynard religious, let alone of a mainstream variety."

Look at that, it's just wonderful. 'Would have been were...' how many times do you see that? Perfect passive conditional subjunctive. Ooo... so good. To me that is crystal clear - feel free to let me know that I'm weird. I shall rephrase it nonetheless:

If Maynard were religious, I do not think that Tool would have recorded a large number of the tracks that they in actual fact did record.

Ok, I changed the passive into the active and gave the subjunctive clause it's own sentence. If the rest of the paragraph is unclear to you I suggest that it is YOU who need to work on your English!



Hehe, I really enjoyed that - I was expecting to find a mistake when I re-read my post - though I will look a right fool if I have overlooked it again... double check - I misspelt credit. Oops.

[McButterpants]

Inner_Eulogy should learn some tact

but that second paragraph is slightly muddled.

Yeh, for sure. I think the second paragraph is OK up to 'Not all parts' (i.e. the first sentence). But yeh, the rest is muddled - I have little conviction in giving any concession to the argument that Maynard is a Christian. Scrap it. The rest is fine - although not new (but in better English, naturally.)

[hobblegobble]

OoooffFF!! Inner_Eulogy, you're killing me. Some of my sentences there are beautiful.

"I don't think any of the tracks that Tool have recorded would have been were Maynard religious, let alone of a mainstream variety."

Look at that, it's just wonderful. 'Would have been were...' how many times do you see that? Perfect passive conditional subjunctive. Ooo... so good. To me that is crystal clear - feel free to let me know that I'm weird. I shall rephrase it nonetheless:

If Maynard were religious, I do not think that Tool would have recorded a large number of the tracks that they in actual fact did record.

Ok, I changed the passive into the active and gave the subjunctive clause it's own sentence. If the rest of the paragraph is unclear to you I suggest that it is YOU who need to work on your English!



Hehe, I really enjoyed that - I was expecting to find a mistake when I re-read my post - though I will look a right fool if I have overlooked it again... double check - I misspelt credit. Oops.


daaaamn, i've been trying for days to knock on Inner the way you just did butter.....THANKS...haha

[McButterpants]

daaaamn, i've been trying for days to knock on Inner the way you just did butter.....THANKS...haha

Hehe... I REEAAAAAAALLLLLYYY enjoyed that. Though let's be fair, it was Inner_Eulogy's own fault. I haven't used forums in years - I forgot what I was missing out on. OK, enough baiting from me - please keep posting, it at least gives me an excuse to post.

[Inner_Eulogy]

lol, you guys are retarded....and you still need to be re-taught your english Butterball

[hobblegobble]

you mean taughted?

[<Insertcrypticnamehere>]

I'm really confused about this whole supposed reconciliation that Maynard has allegedly made with christianity. Is everyone somehow now saying that MJK's April fool's day gag had some truth to it? If you look at Maynard's Myspace page Myspace.com/censorshipisacancer or his puscifer site you see that he still has the same old firebreathing contempt for christianity as he always did. Also, i tend to sense a great deal of sarcasm in most of MJK's lyrics. To me, (wings pt. 2) is about someone finally moving beyond the jesus, christianity myth: "tell them their pillar of faith has ascended." I think Maynard probably laughs when he sees all this speculation by people who seem to think they can understand the dynamics of his relationship with his mother. Is it not just as plausible that he was somehow able to free his mother from christian indoctrination before her death and now is speaking sarcastically to a fake christ character whom she or he has moved beyond.

"Listen to the tales and romanticize,
How we follow the path of the hero.
Boast about the day when the rivers overrun.
How we rise to the height of our halo."

Specifically christianity, but as a staple of all organized religions is a centralized historical figure/savior/hero whom we romanticize and tell tales of such as noah and the flood (rivers overruning) and whom we "Listen to the tales (allegories) and rationalize our way into the arms of the savior" by inventing reasons to defy logic/reason and science for the sake of the Jesus myth.

Also, as an aside, I too think this is their best album as they get progressively better. I actually haven't been able to stop listening to or getting bored of this album since it came out! And I think that some people seem to think its trendy/intelligent/feux-intellectual to automatically reject the newest album. So many keep saying that they liked Lateralus and don't like this and then when the next album comes out they'll probably say the same about that in respect to 10,000 days. I realize I'm making an offpoint but I have really noticed this trend amongst Tool fans who seem to think that they are the truest fans if they pretend that Opiate is their favourite album and 10,000 "sucks".....

[redjenova]

You don't have to be Christian to use Christian themes. Look at Douglas Adams (author of "Hitch Hiker's Guide to the Galaxy"). Uses loads of Christian imagery, etc. etc., yet is adamant in pointing out that he is atheist. As he said in an interview: "If you describe yourself as “Atheist,” some people will say, “Don’t you mean ‘Agnostic’?” I have to reply that I really do mean Atheist. I really do not believe that there is a god - in fact I am convinced that there is not a god (a subtle difference). I see not a shred of evidence to suggest that there is one."

That's pretty convincing. Oh n03z! His BOOKS say stuff about Jesus!! He must have been LYING in that interview!

[DrJones]

I would say that Maynard is spiritual and not religious. Religion is man-made, Christianity as a religion is man-made, and I'm not talkin about Jesus. Christianity as spirituality is about following Christ's teachings, which it is clear that Maynard does not do.

It is possible to talk about themes that you don't necessarily follow or believe in to make a point. Sorry to do this, but Jesus did it all the time. When he spoke in parables he used a lot of farming and agricultural language, while he himself was a carpenter. The reason he did this was to connect with his listeners better. If he would have lectured them they would not have gotten it...well they didn't get the parables either, but it was easier to listen to and connect with because they understood the terminology. I'm not saying Maynard is any sort of prophet or savior or anything like that, I'm saying he is using "Christian" elements and themes and terminology because a lot of people can connect with it and understand it better. Whether or not he or his listeners believe in what he is referring to is beside the point, he's just doing it so we can understand better. That and religion causes a lot of emotions to rise in people, so it makes for good songs and good discussion...hence this forum!

[Inner_Eulogy]

FINALLY some people that actually "GET IT"

[DrJones]

FINALLY some people that actually "GET IT"

Thanks!

[cloey123]

I’ve not come to bash anyone's thoughts here or point any fingers... I consider myself a Christian even though there are plenty of things I don’t agree with that are taught in Southern Baptist church. Just saying Southern Baptist may even halt many of you from even reading the rest of this post. I know Christianity has a bad rap these days and most of it can be blamed on idiot hypocrites who like to call themselves Christians because it makes them feel better about themselves. I think of it more as an ideal…

I just want to make a few observations about this song from a Christian standpoint.

As a Christian who wants to plant a "seed" of thought into someone who isn’t Christian. I wouldn’t simply approach it by professing my faith and start spewing Jesus this and Jesus that. There is no faster way to turn someone away or just tune them out. Pointing out Christian value is the best way. It is NOT a Christian’s job to convert others... I do not think this is what Jesus wanted from us. He wanted the "seed" the "Idea" the "concept" placed in your mind. The rest is Jesus' job. It’s a choice YOU must make... based on values and what you feel in your heart. God could have very well created us all hardwired to believe one thing.

I have no idea if MK meant to seed these values or not, but I feel very strong that he did want to pose the questions you are all discussing. He DID plant the seed... he may have not even meant to. I think God works that way... and through others - Whether they realize it or not.

I find little value in an answer to the question of "is he Christian or not?" It matters not because he has planted the seed anyway. Things tend to work out that way... I see it all around me all the time. Coincidence? maybe... But I sure don’t think so.

And all of this is just my opinion...
.

[TWENTY-THREE]

Thanks!

Water is blue.

[hobblegobble]

Correct, it isn't Christianity that's the problem, it's the people who use the religion as an excuse to benefit themselves, and bash others.

[DrJones]

Water is blue.

Grass is green?

[Inner_Eulogy]

Hey guess what ?????????????????????????????????????????????????? ????
?
?
?
?
?
?
?
HE'S STILL NOT A CATHOLIC, OR A CHRISTIAN, OR A JEW, OR A BAPTIST OR WHATEVER ELSE YOU CAN THINK OF.

[wearethestories]

Hey guess what ?????????????????????????????????????????????????? ????
?
?
?
?
?
?
?
HE'S STILL NOT A CATHOLIC, OR A CHRISTIAN, OR A JEW, OR A BAPTIST OR WHATEVER ELSE YOU CAN THINK OF.

ummm...

Sikh?

I heard he became Sikh and the Sikh community let him shave his face and not wear the turban because he's so polular.

[hobblegobble]

I heard he's a Jesuit

[Inner_Eulogy]

I heard he's a Jesuit

I heard you were cheap