Over Some Peoples Heads?

[base metal]

I remember when Lateralus first came out, Schism was the first single being played on the radio, at least here in the states. Anyway, a co-worker of mine told me that he didn't dig the new Tool stuff one day as it came on the radio. He thought that it was slow and draggy and that the beats were hard to follow and groove to. I'll admit that this song took some time to grow on me but I did find it interesting and over time I have really come to appreciate it for all its worth.

There is some great instrumentation in this song and its powerful if you let it take you where it goes like you should instead of saying "well I can't tap my foot to this" or whatever.
Tool is known for being different and using odd time signatures and I've noticed that people are either feelin' it or it goes right over their head. Too bad for those who don't get it they are truly spiritually deprived.

Great Song! Just want to bring up some discussion about this since it seems to be kind of a forgotten song at this time.

[iAMtheMA!]

hell yeah, my friend. "move between the sounds" feeling it in lateralus t'wards "with my feet..." ...holy fuckin' shit! one of the greatest things to warm up to, it just gets you goin', ya know? i've always been against the predictable common time (4/4) bullshit. ...it's just too simple and could only exist NOW to help ease first-timers into making simple songs "catching tunes", to go and buy that shit. it's marketing. 100%. fuck, the mars volta should be THE thing right now! i'm convinced. they are ALL on top of it, a new age of king crimson (and when those dinosaurs are gone i'll be kicking and screaming for more TMV!). that early neo-classical shit you heard in disney's fantasia absolutely knocks me off me feet. stravinsky and copeland? the matrix?! do you KNOW what's happening THERE? you'd go outta your mind deciphering it now, even against things like tool. but thanks to the electronic age... we all took a huge regression. and most of us welcomed it, which is fucked up.

[end rant]

ever seen maynard dance to his songs (before this tour)? he fuckin' feels it! "intolerance"? 13/16+16/16 ...or something like that? wow. i love it.

[Shantzy Boy]

I think people have trouble with tool because it's so hard to listen to. They don't really have the patience to fully grasp it and understand it. Which is impossible to do with just one listen. It's impossible to do with 500 listens. Unless you're actually part of the band. People can listen to a song and say "Hey, that might be good if I gave it a chance, but I really don't have the time to figure that out right now." Patience is a necessity and most people's attention spans only seem last about 30-60 seconds. So that's why most pop music is so easy and changes from verse to course to verse to course and ends and it's all the same through the whole song. It's easy to follow, it takes no effort or thought at all.

There's just so much music out there, it's hard to listen to something once and say "Hey, that's amazing." You kind of need time and more than just a couple listens to decide whether it really is amazing or not. At least with stuff with weird time signatures and weird verse/course structures. The more mainstream 4/4 stuff you don't even have to listen to the whole song to feel like you've already heard it a million times. You already know where it's going. Which is nowhere.

The first time I was really exposed to Tool was Lateralus, I bought the album on kind of a whim, listened to it and said "This is not for me." I liked some of the stuff at first, half of lateralus, parabola and schism, but I couldn't really get into anything else.. and then ever so slowly I started to be able to follow and realize that "wait a second.. this is actually fucking incredible stuff"

You can tap your foot to tool.. you just have to listen to it more than just a couple times to know when to do it.

"Play from your fucking SOUL!!!!" - Bill Hicks

[9331]

I don't want to tap my foot when I listen to music. I want my brain to shoot cum out.

[ktdude]

I think people have trouble with tool because it's so hard to listen to. They don't really have the patience to fully grasp it and understand it. Which is impossible to do with just one listen. It's impossible to do with 500 listens. Unless you're actually part of the band. People can listen to a song and say "Hey, that might be good if I gave it a chance, but I really don't have the time to figure that out right now." Patience is a necessity and most people's attention spans only seem last about 30-60 seconds. So that's why most pop music is so easy and changes from verse to course to verse to course and ends and it's all the same through the whole song. It's easy to follow, it takes no effort or thought at all.

There's just so much music out there, it's hard to listen to something once and say "Hey, that's amazing." You kind of need time and more than just a couple listens to decide whether it really is amazing or not. At least with stuff with weird time signatures and weird verse/course structures. The more mainstream 4/4 stuff you don't even have to listen to the whole song to feel like you've already heard it a million times. You already know where it's going. Which is nowhere.

The first time I was really exposed to Tool was Lateralus, I bought the album on kind of a whim, listened to it and said "This is not for me." I liked some of the stuff at first, half of lateralus, parabola and schism, but I couldn't really get into anything else.. and then ever so slowly I started to be able to follow and realize that "wait a second.. this is actually fucking incredible stuff"

You can tap your foot to tool.. you just have to listen to it more than just a couple times to know when to do it.

"Play from your fucking SOUL!!!!" - Bill Hicks
yeah I totally agree with this. I had to put in the time and patience to really get to grips with Tool, I really didn't think I would get into it at first and sometimes I feel that other Tool fans don't really understand or respect that process as it was much more instant for some of them. but it was so worth the fucking effort, and I do not resent one minute of time I spent trying to get into them.

interestingly enough, schism was the gateway for me as far as getting into Tool, I found it easier to get into the groove of this song than the others on the album... it wasn't the time signatures that ever bothered me about Tool, I listened to a lot of straight metal before and it was the length and complexity of the songs that took me a while to get used to, from that point of view I found Schism fairly accessible.

[Hym]

No one is spiritually deprived or lacking patience for disliking TOOL. Some people just don't want to think when they listen to music and that is their choice. It doesn't make them any less intelligent. A three minute song with a funky groove that makes you want to dance is just as artistic as any TOOL song. It may not have the same depth, but deeper is not necessarily better.

"Pushpin is as good as poetry." - Jeremy Bentham

[iAMtheMA!]

nope, those fans are indeed missing out. and i dance to it like when maynard did it before this tour... (pre-1996, while playing aenima tracks, was the best example of mjk going fuckin' crazy to the music). i say "why not have both? - that's why it's there."

[Angel on the Sideline]

I have to admit I hated Schism the first time I heard it and thought, "Oh no." Of course I loved the rest of the album and continued to dislike Schism until I heard it live. Maybe it was the extra-fast extra version they play live, but when I heard it live it caught my attention. Now I love the song...

[Confield]

hell yeah, my friend. "move between the sounds" feeling it in lateralus t'wards "with my feet..." ...holy fuckin' shit! one of the greatest things to warm up to, it just gets you goin', ya know? i've always been against the predictable common time (4/4) bullshit. ...it's just too simple and could only exist NOW to help ease first-timers into making simple songs "catching tunes", to go and buy that shit. it's marketing. 100%. fuck, the mars volta should be THE thing right now! i'm convinced. they are ALL on top of it, a new age of king crimson (and when those dinosaurs are gone i'll be kicking and screaming for more TMV!). that early neo-classical shit you heard in disney's fantasia absolutely knocks me off me feet. stravinsky and copeland? the matrix?! do you KNOW what's happening THERE? you'd go outta your mind deciphering it now, even against things like tool. but thanks to the electronic age... we all took a huge regression. and most of us welcomed it, which is fucked up.

4/4 is not new, and I wouldn't know where to begin hammering you for the rest of that post.

[Hym]

nope, those fans are indeed missing out. and i dance to it like when maynard did it before this tour... (pre-1996, while playing aenima tracks, was the best example of mjk going fuckin' crazy to the music). i say "why not have both? - that's why it's there."

What are they missing out on? Something you enjoy? Why would someone want to listen to something they don't enjoy just because you get something out of it? That is so unbelievably pretentious. Music is subjective. A dictionary has more depth than a great novel, but it doesn't make it more enjoyable to read.

And for the record, there is nothing wrong with using a 4/4 time signature. If you want to talk about composition then TOOL aren't exactly ground-breaking.

[iAMtheMA!]

Confield, where did i say 4/4 was "new"? i made numerous words of how extremely old and predictable common time signatures tend to be. you should read the post before wanting to "hammer" it. ...or me. there was nothing wrong with what i said.


Hym, they're missing out a chance to roam their imagination, to fly over the floods in aenema (and flood - possiby 10,000 days, too!), riding on the cymbals, spiraling in and out of pans and feeling connected to more difficult time signature and fairly complex patterns. it isn't just music.

and common time tends to be awfully predictable. there are ways to spice it up, and many have (certainly tool has), but typically 4/4 is boring ...base. i guess it depends on if you consider "boring" to be "wrong"... as someone else mentioned, it's a cool thing to HAFTA listen multiple times to understand what danny carey is doing (and why). i wouldn't expect anything less from such a band...

[Hym]

Hym, they're missing out a chance to roam their imagination,

Some people can use their imagination through other mediums like art, literature, film, etc. Take reading for example, anything you get out of TOOL can be experienced by someone reading. Especially considering Maynard's lyrics are basically just interpretations of subjects he's read about, e.g. Jungian psychology.

to fly over the floods in aenema (and flood - possiby 10,000 days, too!), riding on the cymbals, spiraling in and out of pans and feeling connected to more difficult time signature and fairly complex patterns. it isn't just music.

If you can only use your imagination when listening to TOOL then you have a very weak mind.

and common time tends to be awfully predictable.

That's the whole point of a time signature. It is meant to be predictable so you can get into a beat. Danny could easily play far more complex rhythms, but they wouldn't allow the music to flow well.

there are ways to spice it up, and many have (certainly tool has), but typically 4/4 is boring ...base. i guess it depends on if you consider "boring" to be "wrong"... as someone else mentioned, it's a cool thing to HAFTA listen multiple times to understand what danny carey is doing (and why). i wouldn't expect anything less from such a band...

4/4 is the basis of all music because it is a natural rhythm that the brain can identify with. Being more complicated doesn't make it any better or make the listener any more intelligent. I bet if you didn't know anything about TOOL then you wouldn't be able to tell that Danny uses odd time signatures sometimes. Also, you should realise that most of Danny's time signatures are easy to do by any drummer with good knowledge of music theory.

TOOL is just music. It's great music that I love just as much as you do. The difference is that I am not blinded by a gimmick.

[iAMtheMA!]

you say that you can "fly over a flood" through art and/or literature, by choice, but you're not choosing to go there through tool's music? people can find other outlets for imagination, i certainly do, but you're missing out on tool's effort if you're not applying it to their music ...and you're definitely missing out. what else... well, 4/4 is only "natural" through repetition (and enough is enough!). and check out things like gustav holst's "the planets". if you're listening to it as if you were to tool, then you're not noticing huge celestrial bodies dancing through the cosmos ...which was intended, so you're missing out. let's not attack with "blinded" since you're so fuckin' biased on the subject anyways.

the manipulator that couldn't...

"under-thinking, under-analyzing..."


and any drummer with knowledge of music theory (what the hell do YOU know?) can listen to any ol' tool song ONCE and know everything that's going on? yeah, i'll definitely call bullshit on that one, my friend. hearing it is one thing, understanding it is quite another. do you see five or more overlapping SHAPES moving around a center (eg. gear ratios) like danny carey does? i seriously doubt it. what do THOSE shapes mean to him? (earth's connections to one of saturn's moons?) what? (our moon's connections to the sun?) they teach that shit in music theory now??? wow.

[Hym]

you say that you can "fly over a flood" through art and/or literature, by choice, but you're not choosing to go there through tool's music? people can find other outlets for imagination, i certainly do, but you're missing out on tool's effort if you're not applying it to their music ...and you're definitely missing out.

My whole point is that just because someone doesn't like TOOL doesn't mean that they don't have some other form of art that gives them the same pleasure that you and I get from TOOL.

what else... well, 4/4 is only "natural" through repetition (and enough is enough!).

No, because if that was the case then any song where Danny uses an odd time signature over and over again would be natural. 4/4 is a natural time signature because someone who knows nothing about music and listens to a song in 4/4 can tap their foot to it.

and check out things like gustav holst's "the planets". if you're listening to it as if you were to tool, then you're not noticing huge celestrial bodies dancing through the cosmos ...which was intended, so you're missing out.

I am very familiar with Holst and The Planets. In fact, Holst is my second favourite composer after J.S. Bach. I listen to Holst and TOOL in the same way. That doesn't necessarily mean that when I listen to Mars, Bringer of War that I picture Los Angeles getting flooded, it just means that with both artists I think carefully about their works and feel the music and use it as a soundtrack to my imagination. I don't just hear the music, but I use my mind to enhance the experience by thinking deeply about what it evokes. I believe that a person who does not have some form of art that they can relate to in this way is deprived. I don't believe that someone who can get the same pleasure out of another artist's work instead of TOOL's is deprived because they are getting exactly the same experience, just with a different colour to it.

let's not attack with "blinded" since you're so fuckin' biased on the subject anyways.

What reason do I have to be biased? I am a TOOL fan. I used to be exactly like you. I thought that anyone who didn't like TOOL just couldn't understand it. Eventually I grew up and realised that there is so much art in the world, and there is such variety for a reason - to please everyone.

the manipulator that couldn't...

"under-thinking, under-analyzing..."

I spent 5 years of my life being obsessed with TOOL and coming up with wild theories, analysing lyrics and doing everything else TOOL nerds do. I enjoyed it and I still do, so don't tell me that I under-think or under-analyse.



First of all, I play drums (but that isn't my prime instrument), secondly, if you played a part of a TOOL song to me or any other drummer with decent knowledge of music theory then they could tell you what the time signature was. It's not exactly challenging, albeit it might take multiple listens to figure out the changes correctly. Playing it is a completely different story, but it's not hard to listen and count.

[QUOTE]yeah, i'll definitely call bullshit on that one, my friend. hearing it is one thing, understanding it is quite another.

Not really. If you can hear a time signature clearly then you can understand it.

Do you realise that jazz drummers have been doing more complicated time signatures than Danny for decades? Composers have been writing works more complex than Danny's for centuries.

do you see five or more overlapping SHAPES moving around a center (eg. gear ratios) like danny carey does? i seriously doubt it. what do THOSE shapes mean to him? (earth's connections to one of saturn's moons?) what? (our moon's connections to the sun?)

And this has fuck all to do with playing music. Listen to some music by Igor Stravinsky. He used some unbelievable time signatures. It didn't change the fact that his work was uninspired, unemotional, boring and robotic.

they teach that shit in music theory now??? wow.

No. They teach things that are actually useful to a musician.

For the record, TOOL are my favourite band and Danny Carey is one of my favourite drummers. I am just looking at this objectively.

[base metal]

Allright, I don't want to argue, that's not why I posted this thread. I've read through everyone's responses and of course we are all entitled to our own opinions but this is starting to get crazy.

[base metal]

I have to admit I hated Schism the first time I heard it and thought, "Oh no." Of course I loved the rest of the album and continued to dislike Schism until I heard it live. Maybe it was the extra-fast extra version they play live, but when I heard it live it caught my attention. Now I love the song...


Yeah, hearing certain songs live can definitely help you appreciate them more. I wasn't really looking forward to hearing Schism or Sober at the concert, I felt like they could have picked something better, but, when you get to see it played right before your eyes it gives it new meaning.

The way they sped up the middle live was interesting, thats probably my favorite part of the song....trippy guitars into "cold silence has a tendency to atraphy any sense of compassion" then the heaviness comes back and slam! Cool Shit!

[base metal]

Shantzy Boy wrote " I think people have trouble with tool because its so hard to listen to. They don't really have the patience to fully grasp it and understand it."

This is exactly the point of this thread, I agree 100%. Sometimes I think that people are turned off by the darkness of Tool aswell, they don't want to think about these things and feel these feelings. Its definitely not for the weak minded.

[iAMtheMA!]

oh, so we're to do the quoting game, eh? (an' isolate everyone else ...just to reiterate what's already on the site and in plain view)"My whole point is that just because someone doesn't like TOOL doesn't mean that they don't have some other form of art that gives them the same pleasure that you and I get from TOOL." i never talked about anyone not liking tool, and never said those people didn't have an outlet (your seemingly-rebelious-without-a-cause CHOICE to ignore the fact that tool went to the effort to depict certain imagery via audio is what you're missing out on. i.e. listening to half the music = half the fan, imo), but keep talking... my head felt too good before your post.
No, because if that was the case then any song where Danny uses an odd time signature over and over again would be natural. 4/4 is a natural time signature because someone who knows nothing about music and listens to a song in 4/4 can tap their foot to it.natural. so, you're saying that a baby popped straight from the womb will only be able to understand a count to 4 (then repeat)? 1234123412341234. sooooo base, and boring. and so unture, it is not nature. tool mixes it up, and not just danny ...so it's not gonna be common/"natural" (what a stupid way to describe the 4/4 time signature ...prolly why 4/4 isn't called "natural time"). it's rarely (if not never) the same riff, tempo, meter, tone, etc ...when it comes to this band. and whenever tool DOES play common time, the traditional strong beats are rarely (if not never) 2 and 4. always mixing it up = not boring.I am very familiar with Holst and The Planets. In fact, Holst is my second favourite composer after J.S. Bach. I listen to Holst and TOOL in the same way. That doesn't necessarily mean that when I listen to Mars, Bringer of War that I picture Los Angeles getting flooded, it just means that with both artists I think carefully about their works and feel the music and use it as a soundtrack to my imagination. I don't just hear the music, but I use my mind to enhance the experience by thinking deeply about what it evokes. I believe that a person who does not have some form of art that they can relate to in this way is deprived. I don't believe that someone who can get the same pleasure out of another artist's work instead of TOOL's is deprived because they are getting exactly the same experience, just with a different colour to it.i'm glad that someone listens to the classics, but this part of the post is straight up retarded. i never said that you'd be seeing a flood whilst listening to "mars" by holst. i was refering to the experience of visualizing through audio ...whether it be tool, holst, bach, stravinsky, mother goose, etc. retarded especially because you basically went back on your original arguement of "deeper is not necessarily better" with "I use my mind to enhance the experience by thinking deeply about what it evokes". but good, that's what i do. you don't think someone's depriving themselves by ignoring the art in the music? interesting, i just can't agree with it. i mean, it's not like tool's smashing riffs together (and singing over it all) to see what shit sticks to the wall = "just music". there's a reason they've choosen a certain time signature, riff, tone, etc. their ART is conducted through much math and precision. it's not just music.First of all, I play drums (but that isn't my prime instrument), secondly, if you played a part of a TOOL song to me or any other drummer with decent knowledge of music theory then they could tell you what the time signature was. It's not exactly challenging, albeit it might take multiple listens to figure out the changes correctly. Playing it is a completely different story, but it's not hard to listen and count.yeah, you're sounding like you know more than me. to set it straight, so we can move on, i'm a bass player with "decent knowledge of theory". done. you're right, though, it's not difficult to "listen and count", but do you "understand" it? why is carey playing shapes, does it symbolize anything? "listening" and "understanding" are not as alike as you've seem to interpret. "it might take multiple listens..." and that's the point, being an active listener. to reiterate, a passive-listener tool-fan is less of a tool-fan (and again, imo). i'm quite aware of odd/poly-meters samplings throughout time, so ...no need to go down that path. i'm more familiar with the things tool has done, though, they've more behind the music than most anyone else out there atm ...and it's not just the lyrics we're to delve into (as diggers).No. They teach things that are actually useful to a musician.let's keep in mind that adam jones personally doesn't care for extended theory. he realises that it's important to a lot of musicians, but he's able to work around this somehow. but according to this part of your post, am i to believe that they don't teach how to play visuals? have you even taken a college course on this one or are you merely coughin' up the old and polished? MY courses took me into improv, feeling the moment, taking it somewhere, and bringing the audience (if possible). but, hey, interpretations are gonna always be in the air and hopefully random, but if you're not even going down that path then, yeah, "those fans are indeed missing out".

sorry, everyone else...

i just feel like trying to find visuals in audio is something that's been regressing throughout the ages. the 70s were huge on it (certainly not the ONLY era with this in mind), and maybe these sorta bands (especially anything omar a. rodriguez-lopez touches) SHOULD be getting us "back on track", an' more emotionally involved ..."feel connected". but, it's not. it's severely down-played, probably a gov't'al move. who knows...?

[base metal]

Look what I've started.....sigh!

Don't get so worked up about it !AMtheMA!, like your location says "dun worry about it", relax, it's the OPINION forum....I know what you're saying man, don't take everything so personally.

Just so you know, I have "moved through the sounds" and I have seen Maynard maneuver on stage like a robotic madman, gyrating in animated fashion, he is fun to watch when he gets going.....he does fuckin' feel it and so do I brutha.

[Shantzy Boy]

From the article on the front page of this forum, it's Adam talking:

"There are no rules to this," he stresses, "and when you start making rules it gets convoluted. Everyone wants to supply rules to it, and that takes away the magic of doing something musically that can remind someone of a sensory experience, a smell, a thinking process, whatever. it's about exploring, any way to touch the senses."

Aronman said:
Sometimes I think that people are turned off by the darkness of Tool aswell, they don't want to think about these things and feel these feelings. Its definitely not for the weak minded

This is very true, most people don't want to experience bad things. But one of the main messages here is that this is neccesary. Bad things/feelings, dark things/feelings exist for a reason. You need them. You need to work through them to get to the good. And you need to realize that the bad doesn't exist without the good. The good does not exist without the bad. Most people can't realize that they are actually basically the same thing, it's just how you look at them. They work together and against each other at the same time. And this is a terribly hard concept to grasp. It's one of those things you have to find out on your own. You have to kind of wait for that "a-ha!" moment. And that's true for a lot of the ideas tool entertain. You have to find it yourself.

A lot of the ideas that tool indulges in are hard to follow, you can't really grasp them without doing a little reading and experiencing first. Most of these ideas are terribly difficult to express in words, as well. Hence the music creating sensory experiences. And all of the metaphors and allegories in the lyrics. A picture is worth a thousand words, you know. A lot of people tend to be very literal these days, taking everything at face value. You can't do that with music being made by real artists.

As we know, not everyone in the world is artistically inclined, so when some people listen to the music, they only hear the surface of it. It can be easily mistaken for something that it's not. I've been told by my mother to stop listening to angry music all the time. When I try to tell her it's not angry, she just rolls her eyes at me. I'm sure dressing up as a baby-eater for hallowe'en reassured her of my sanity... but I digress.

As for the strange time signatures and irregular song structures.. well just look at the quote from Adam. There are no rules. I am a bass player, and have been for about 2 years now. I have virtually no experience with music theory, I taught myself how to play. Well, actually, I guess the internet taught me how to play. Anyway, I still can't for the life of me figure out what kind of time signature something is in.. I just don't get it. I can play every tool song on bass. People say "You can play tool, so you must understand a lot about timing and music theory" Nope. I don't fucking get it. I can't count. I mean, I guess I sort of do it unconsciously.. but assigning numbers to it really bothers me for some reason. It's more of a feel thing. Which makes playing in bands incredibly frustrating.

Anyway, the fact that these guys can come up with all these seemingly-crazy polyrythyms and weird time sigs makes it more interesting. It's more like it's taking the song somewhere, it's writing a story that has a beggining and an ending and something to take you from the start to the end. If just feels good. Change is key, for everything. You can't stay in the same spot all the time.. you've gotta get up and move around. That's why I say most pop music on the radio goes nowhere. It's basically the same time signature and verse chorus structure through the whole thing. Changing it up makes it feel different, and it takes the song in a new direction, making it feel like a story, or a movie or whatever. This isn't something people are really used to.. it's hard to follow. That's why patience is key.

Well.. I could probably write more, but I'm at work right now and I should probably be doing something 'more productive'. Peace.

[base metal]

I agree with you about all of this, it all requires time and understanding.

I've been playing guitar for years, and though i have studied music theory and know all about key and time signatures, i have always just played by ear and feel, i don't consciously think about it either.

Thanks for the post shantzy boy....I hear ya.

[mjkajdcjc]

It may not be "forgotten" but rather ignored at times by fans due to its Grammy and radio play. However, the complex rythmn changes, virtuoso drumming, lyrical subtlties, and phenominal prog atmosphere sets the tone for one of the greatest songs of the 2000s.

[base metal]

Well put. Ya know, I seem to get into this song a little more with each listen and when I think back 4 or 5 years ago, I think that I was a dumbass for not grasping the beauty of this song at the time. Strange how it just "came to me" at some point, because for the longest time I was so into The Grudge, Parabol(a) and Lateralus and this one wasn't doing it for me at the time. I really think that hearing it played live over the summer helped, the band seemed to put their fuckin' souls into it, it was incredible and it struck me deep down inside.

[dusanm]

In short, lets chill out with the all this "anyone who doesn't like Tool is stupid" bullshit, because there's a lot of good music that isn't Tool, and there's a lot of good music that's in 4/4.

Totally with u man!!
Peace on....

[andrew7667]

It's rather pretentious to believe that just because someone doesn't like Tool means that they just don't understand it.

While I would agree that there are people out there who don't like Tool because they haven't given it a chance, that doesn't mean it's always the case. There are a vast number of people who simply do not like Tool. They do not get the same thing that we do from it. Are they wrong? No. Are they dull? No.

There are several bands or types of music that I don't find particularly enjoyable to listen to. I, for one, hate most metal. Does that mean I don't "get" what the artist is trying to convey, no...it means that I don't like metal.

The major issue with this topic is it ignores that fact that music is objective. It is not something that a formula can be written for. Creativity is not something you can learn from a book. You can merely learn things that help you in expressing your creativity.

Now, on the other hand, I think there are a lot of Tool fans who do not really understand Tool. They like it though, which further proves my point that you don't need to understand the music in order to like (or dislike) a genre, band, etc.

[base metal]

In short, lets chill out with the all this "anyone who doesn't like Tool is stupid" bullshit, because there's a lot of good music that isn't Tool, and there's a lot of good music that's in 4/4.

We'll do that boss, now lets chill with all these stupid user names and wack avatars. ( just kiddin'?).

I don't think anyone is stupid for not liking Tool or not understanding complex song structure etc. and I agree that there is plenty of other good music besides Tool in common 4/4 meter. 4/4 time signatures can be played in interesting ways simply by accenting different parts of the count and it is only natural that people are able to 'groove' to a 4/4 meter. Not everyone cares about all of the technicalities of a piece of music, most people just know if they like it or not and there is nothing wrong with that IMO.

I think the line in my initial post, "to bad for those who don't get it, they are truely spiritually deprived" was taken the wrong way. What I really meant by that is that this song is powerful when ingested in full. Any talk of anyone being 'stupid' for not getting/liking this song was in reference to myself, so don't take offense.

[mjkajdcjc]

Well put. Ya know, I seem to get into this song a little more with each listen and when I think back 4 or 5 years ago, I think that I was a dumbass for not grasping the beauty of this song at the time. Strange how it just "came to me" at some point, because for the longest time I was so into The Grudge, Parabol(a) and Lateralus and this one wasn't doing it for me at the time. I really think that hearing it played live over the summer helped, the band seemed to put their fuckin' souls into it, it was incredible and it struck me deep down inside.
I think (I may be way off), but with most Tool songs, you can't appreciate them fully (or even at fraction) as much as when you give them about 10-12 listens (there is no timeframe, but that's kinda what I've noticed).

Also, that song is not as instantly catchy, riff heavy, or overtly technical. It is an amazing song in intensely subtle ways. The rythymn changes, the drumming, the great bass lines, the lyrical truths.

Just an amazing example of what Tool stands for. It deserved its Grammy.