OGT vs. NGT

[EndEyeQuote]

this was mentioned briefly in the "oh the irony" thread, and some would argue that it is partially what HOOKER may be about - so i thought i would give it its own thread.

that is old school TOOL fans vs. new school TOOL fans and those who seem to think they are better from knowing TOOL pre ÆNIMA or even, like myself, pre Sober on the radio.

i myself feel very fortunate for having known TOOL for so long. My cousin presented me with the Undetow album the week it came out (i was 13) and played one track for me, intolerance, and i was hooked. I picked up Undertow the next day and Opiate not soon after. I bought Ænima, Salival, and Lateralus all on the days they came out.

Now do i think of myself better or a bigger TOOL fan for this? No. I consider myself lucky that i have been able to have TOOL in my life for so long, but does that make me appreciate the music more than a 13 year old, or another adult, getting into TOOL for the first time with SCHISM or even PARABOLA? No. In fact i heard someone once argue they were more fortunate for getting into TOOL recently because they were able to experience it all for the first time, and asked me to remember what it was like the first time way back when. And i could totally understand where they were coming from.

The point is that we are all fans - feeling and appreciating the music in our own ways. For those of us who you could call "ogt" we have had the good fortune to have TOOL for so long. For those that i guess you could call "ngt", they get to explore a new world of music far above that of most muscians out there today. What is important is that we are all here - and that we each take from the music something different. For the moment we all hear the same thing is the moment that the music becomes bland and stagnant. Coming together and conversing on what we each take is a great thing. We all share it as one, and as listeners we will always be equals.

[soul_excursion]

some info from the soul_excursion, the fountain of useless information:

I started listening to tool when I got a free cassette demo from volcano records before, get this, a Danger Danger concert in November of 1992. the cassette demo is called 'Rock Your Socks' and had a drawing of a frog on the cover. "Sweat' was the Tool track on the tape. I loved it the first time I listened to it. I picked up 'Opiate' a wek or two later, but admittingly I only listened to it once or twice and it gathered dust on my shelves with the apporxiamately 900 other CD's I had at the time. I bought 3,258 CD's from Christmas 1989 when I got my first CD player till 1999 when I moved and counted them. (if Napster had come out 10 years before, and I spent my money on Snapple Stocks I'd be rich right now). I was reintrocuced to Tool and picked up 'Undertow' when the 'Sober' video came out. I have to look back at my hair metal days with great fondness... afterall, if I wasn't an Extreme fan before 'more than words' came out, I never would have gotten to see Alice In Chains open up for them 2 months before they released 'Facelift'...

Anyway, I think that the irony of the O.G.T. tattoos the kids has is that they are new. If the kid really was OGT in 92, he'd have gotten the tattoos back in '92, not while Maynard was writing song lyrics for Aenima. Another irony I can relate to was, yes I was at a Danger Danger concert, but hey, I grew up on the hair metal glam guitar rock of the 80's, but if oyu remember, back in 1992 what was the biggest stuff on the pop charts? ... RAP... Ice-T's Original Gangster album with the song "New Jack Hustler' in particular. And while a lot of people were listening to that, I was unknowingly listening to Maynard singing 'not by the hair of my chinny chinny chin' on Green Jello's 'Three Little Pigs'. Now that's ironic.

btw the funniest thing I ever read on the internet in my life was about 2-1/2 years ago, about 3 months before 'Salival' came out, some 13 year old girl from michigan wrote this in an aol alt rock chat room "did you hear that maynard from A Perfect Circle has a new band coming out? they're calling it tool or something"

[EndEyeQuote]

that is really hillarious!

and hey that is quite a collectible you got there - that cd with sweat on it - and what a great song to pick from OPIATE!

*very envious*

=P

[ragna16]

Yeah I was thinking of getting a tattoo that said OGT '02, but decided against it. Still I would like to see someone else get it, while I stick with getting the classic Anchor tattoo.

[Mark D]

I have been listening to Tool for a little over a year now. I started by listening to AEnima and then got all their other CDs. I know Im NGT, but I think of this in a different way. You see I am a big KoRn fan and have been for a long time. What this has to do with Tool and OGT I will explain. Im sure that anyone who has listened to KoRn over the years has noticed they have changed. They have gained new fans. However I dont like the new fans. They are exposed to KoRn from MTV and are mainstream listeners. I dont like the idea of some Nsync preppy listener claiming that they like KoRn. To relate back to Tool, I think that it doesnt matter that I am a new fan. I listen to their music not because its "cool". I listen to them because their music is good and I like to interpret their songs. Now if Tool got really big on MTV and started to be really mainstream i would be pissed. Tool would get fake fans who would say stuff like, "I have been listening to Tool since Opiate and Im OGT", when they have been listening sice they saw latterus on MTV. Thats what i dont want to see. I have a name for these kind of fans. FGT-Fake Gangsta Tool. Thats all for now. Hope that made sense to someone.

[interpretation]

I'll attack this notion when I have more time

[conical johnson]

that's original gangsta raffi, to you. i think every tool album is very different, not just sonically, but in the themes and motifs throughout each album. i can honestly say that i like each tool album equally, for what they are. i first got into tool about three years ago, but what got me into them was undertow, not Ænima. this is only because the music i was most into at the time was more like undertow. after having bought it, i got the other albums because i was so in love with it. but i probably would not have been quite so interested in any of the other albums before i became familiar with the voice of the band through a medium i was more comfortable with. i think it's important to note that all tool fans like tool for a different reason. anybody who's been to a tool show and been next to an "ogt" may have met a really intelligent guy who feels tool emotionally. but i have been next to quite a few thick-necked idiots who keep their copy of Ænima next to their new saliva and disturbed cds. were any of these guys so-called ogts? certainly. plenty of people think tool reached the apex of their creativity in 1996. i don't. but i know that because you've been listening for longer, you don't necessarily understand tool any more.

[StinkfistJEff]

I discovered tool wwhen lateralus came out. My friend picked it up and I heard "The Grudge" and was immediately hooked! Anyways...the next day I bought all 4 albums and listeneted to them all in chronological order that day...throughout the day....wow it was an amazing experience. And after hearing Third Eye...I knew I would never need to listen to any other music. (Although when I need a break from Tool, I listen to LEd Zeppelin, Rage AGainst the Machine, old incubus stuff, and some metallica.) But honestly I could listen to Tool all day for the rest of my life...and be fine with it...unless some new band comes out which is better...but that could never happen.

Anyways just thought I'd say being a NGT ain't all that bad. I don't think OGT"s should disrespect. We all discovered beautiful music, so let's be happy we can all enjoy something like that.

[EndEyeQuote]

yes at least you have discovered TOOL

like i said about the only reason i am glad that i guess i could be considered ogt (even though i didnt hear of them till undertow not opiate so i may not even technically count) is that i have been able to have TOOL in my life for so long.

this DOES NOT make me appreciate the music anymore than anybody else at all, or enjoy a show any less or moe than anyone else. all it does is make me fortunate to have had them for all those years.

TOOL sucks you in, so i love to hear stories about people who have heard one song and then went out and bought all the albums.

and UNDERTOW will always be my favorite album for a couple of reasons. one - i always for some reason am always drawn to the album from a band that first got me into them, even whne musically the album may be clearly inferior to others from a band. i dont think UNDERTOW is inferior in anyway, but its a notalgia thing too. secondly - even though i think JUSTIN is phenomenal at the bass - even probably more so technically than PAUL damour - i still prefer PAULS style. it is dark and brooding and gritty while justin is technical and melodic. JUSTIN finally completely distinguished himself as quiet a forc in TOOL On lateralus (most people dont realize PAUL damour wrote most of Ænema before he left), so i will always love JUSTIN too, but they DO have two completely different styles and i just prefer PAUL, the bass in inttolerance is what first attracte me to the band in the first place!

[Burning Eden]

OGT vs. NGT...people will use anything to place themselves "above" everyone else. It really makes no difference when you started listening to a certain band. Music is about passion and creativity and inspiration... It's not a competition... I wish some people could realize this. The funny thing I find about Tool is that the LONGER I listen to them, the less I understand...I used to think that I knew what their songs meant...now I'm not so sure. So whether you've listen to Tool since Opiate or Lateralus, it really makes no difference. It's what you take away from the music...how you use it to inspire you...That's what it's all about.

[EndEyeQuote]

precisely

im not even sure why we are talking about this after thinking about this comment. its almost a dead issue and fairly obvious to anybody who does have their head stuck up there pretentious ass.

im not better than you because i have listened to TOOL longer. simple. a little fortunate yes, but defiantely not better. but once you have TOOL or anything else in your life that you enjoy does it really matter when they came in. with a band the only thing is to have had the ability to see them in smaller venues, but thats about the only thing that i have that some people dont. and again that doesnt make me any better off or a bigger TOOL fan.

and i totally hear you on the comment that i almost feel i understand it less - because the more you learn about TOOL the more realize how much forethought has went into everything they do.

[Dredg]

The first song I got into was Hooker with a Penis and Swamp Song, I think it was back in 1999 I started listening to them. I remember going to Toolshed and it being vacant. I believe it was around the time Tool was getting ready to come out with Lateralus. So there really wasnt any news going on in the Tool world.

But for the people who like labeling them selfs with OGT or whatever its just them trying to find some braging rights for their selfs....."I was OGT now admire me and look at me"

[conical johnson]

i dont think UNDERTOW is inferior in anyway, but its a notalgia thing too. secondly - even though i think JUSTIN is phenomenal at the bass - even probably more so technically than PAUL damour - i still prefer PAULS style. it is dark and brooding and gritty while justin is technical and melodic. JUSTIN finally completely distinguished himself as quiet a forc in TOOL On lateralus (most people dont realize PAUL damour wrote most of Ænema before he left), so i will always love JUSTIN too, but they DO have two completely different styles and i just prefer PAUL, the bass in inttolerance is what first attracte me to the band in the first place!

paul was with tool at the time that they wrote four of the songs on Ænima. that's four, and that doesn't mean he wrote those songs, it means he was with them when they wrote them. i'm a bass player, by the by. people always say that paul was all dark and heavy and justin is "technical and melodic" though justin is a far better bass player technically, the idea that he's more melodic and paul was darker is silly because you can't compare them. does anybody compare adam's playing on undertow to his playing on lateralus? rarely. tool was darker and brooding on opiate and undertow and more technical and melodic on lateralus, so that's why the bass players had different styles. if someone who doesn't know tool heard undertow, they'd get a very different impression of maynard as a vocalist and songwriter than if they heard lateralus. apples and oranges. so there. the big irony is that paul left tool to pursue more melodic music, as he was getting tired of their "dark and brooding" style...

[mike tyson]

Well since I'm 16 years old, it took me a few years to really " discover " Tool. When I was younger when Undertow was released, I had heard the singles and likes what I heard, but I never really listened to the words and message in the music, since my brain hadn't developed enough to understand their messages.

Then years later when Ænima was released, I had heard a few more of the songs, and still thought it sounded good, but my brain still had not developed enough to realize their messages. My older brother had borrowed Ænima from a friend and I happened to come into his room while he was listening to it, and I sat down and tried to understand it, for I had only heard the music, and did not understand the message in the lyrics.

Then with the release of Lateralus, I had developed well enough and understood what they were trying to say, and loved their music since then. After I had realized the power of Tool and their superior art, I purchased their other albums, and was blown away with all their music ( which I refer to as art ).

So I guess I " discovered " Tool through Lateralus. Those fans who would say I'm not a true fan because I discovered them through Lateralus have no right to say so, I love Tools' art as much as the next fan, and just since I have not enjoyed Tools' art since they first came out doesn't mean I'm not a fan, so to those who say the people who discovered Tool recently are not true fans, POINT THAT FU**ING FINGER UP YOUR AS*. Tool is supposed to be enjoyed through their art, not how many t-shirts, posters, or other pieces of merchandise of Tools' you own, or when you started to listen to Tool. Thats just how I feel, hopefully I wasn't too hostile or dismal.

[Flood]

I grew up listening to KoRn like Mike D. They were my favorite band since 1996 when Life is Peachy came out. My friend let me listen to it, and I became a big fan. Then in 2001, after Issues (which was shitty), I quit listening to them. For about 5 years I thought they were the cream of the crop. But then I just downloaded some random stuff off Kazaa that my friends said were good. Most of em stunk like Staind and Deftones. I did come across System of a Down...they're another good band. Rage and Alice in Chains were also two other good bands I heard. Well, I was searching on Amazon.com's Alice in Chains' CD's reviews for some good songs, and I came across someone who said AIC was the second best band of the 90's other than Tool. So I downloaded Sober and Aenima and then I became hooked. When I heard Reflection I was completley blown away at the originality and lyrical talent. My first real Tool CD (other than two mixes) was Opiate. Then I got Lateralus and then Aenima. I still have to pick up Undertow..but Salival is a bit pricy for me.

I guess you can call me a newbie fan, but I've learned many things about Tool to make myself not sound really newbieish. I have yet to go to a concert, which is why I really want that live DVD. I crave for seeing Danny's drumming on Triad. Tool is by far the best band out there, and I hope they continue to make some original and deep albums.

[seeker]

i got into tool shortly after i got into nine inch nails... i guess that was close to 3 years ago. i was into NIN longer, but when lateralus came out, i saw it and bought it right away. since i couldn't understand much of what maynard was saying, i stuck with NIN. i've since bought every album and most of the singles by them, every once in a while listening to tool when i needed a change of pace. that's lasted until about a week ago.

i've listened NIN into my head so much that i can play any song (and most versions of them) any time i want. but i haven't wanted to lately... all i've wanted to listen to is tool. i own all but opiate right now (though i'm about to get it... these damn army stores don't carry it and i've checked bases all over germany) and have bought them in reverse order. though i love trent reznor's work and have connected to his music in tons of ways, i have been so impressed with tool and their philosophy/lyrics/approach to life that i have all but forgotten my interest in NIN. and what gets me is that the deeper i delve, the more i realize that i haven't gone anywhere.

here's an NGT salivating in anticipation of the live DVD.

[Meuterei]

*shrug* I'm OGT... about as OGT as one can be, considering that in 1992, I lived with my brother in Orange County, CA... and he was a big fan of anything that didn't sound like G&R and/or Nirvana... I was 13 and he was basically my musical gateway to the world.

Joe was at the Jello Loft when the live stuff from Opiate was recorded. I would have been there too, but I was sick. We would rawk out all the time to the tape he made of that show... so basically, I was OGT before anyone even knew what it was...

...and you know what that means? Absolutely nothing. There are people out there that didn't even know who Tool was until Lateralus. Yet they are just as dedicated as fans, and just as qualified to form opinions about the music as I am.

It's not like being a music listener endows one with some sort of seniority or rank. People who think this way take things far too seriously... and really need an attitude adjustment.

One's opinion and feelings are no more important than another's... especially just because someone's listened to something a little longer than you have...

[ry.]

maybe this is a different idea altogether,
i am 16 years old ive been listening to tool for about 3 years now.
i am sick of people my age claiming to be "ogt". These people would have be 6-8 years old when "opiate" and "undertow" came out. They say things like "yeah i was listining to them in '93 how about you?". It is very doubtful people my age were real fans when they were 7 years old, they prolly couldnt even understand half of the lyrics. One thing all of these younger "ogt" fans have in common is an older brother/sister, interesting isnt it? to me it seems like these people are no different than teenage girls and the backstreet boys, they listen because someone says they're "cool".

as for the overall idea of OGT vs NGT, its stupid, it really is.
if we absolutely must,we should group tool fans by a better standard, like understanding, not just who had opiate before you.

[EndEyeQuote]

Originally posted by Meuterei

Joe was at the Jello Loft when the live stuff from Opiate was recorded. I would have been there too, but I was sick. We would rawk out all the time to the tape he made of that show... so basically, I was OGT before anyone even knew what it was...


wow thats is pretty sweet. - i have someone sware tome that he was the 'bob marley wannaebe motherfucker' LOL - hence the mention of it in my TOOLGEEK post.

anyway is there anything you can tell us about that show? what other songs did they play etc.? i am sure you probably listened to the tape enough yourself. since salival i always wondered if they played maynards dick at that show.

[Karf]

The person that got me into Tool told me, at a concert, that I 'didn't belong here'. Pissed me off. Although later I learned that it all stemed from me accidenally saying too much things about drugs and making a parent driving us to the concert 'suspicious'. Oh, well.

I'm really not all that sure when I first hear Tool. I mean REALLY heard them, not just Gaping Lotus randomly. Heh. I guess it was around '98. Downloaded Ænema, and then bought it. (shrugs) We are all Tool fans, something incommon. It doesn't matter when we got into it. We are eternal beings.

[lootfreak]

I have been listening to Tool since Aenima came out. 'H' was the song that got me hooked for life. I bought Opiate and Undertow not long after. I have since bought Salival and Lateralus the day they came out. I have been fortunate enough to see them twice in concert. Both times were undescribebly perfect. I also have the covers of Undertow and Aneima as a tatoo. It's nice to see other OGT's out there and not the kids who just started listening to them with Lateralus. It might sound a little weird, but I call Tool my 'religion'. I make it a priority to know as much about them as I can(or at least remember:~).

[Hogpile]

Listen folks. I think the whole ogt ngt sndoubleoppqrst shit is played out. Maynard wrote the song about some dumbshit claiming to be a fan of tool since the "oldschool days" I don't think the guy Maynard is singing about ever really used the term ogt, I think Maynard just came up with that as a catch phrase to poke fun at a dumbass poser bitch. I think its ironic that people are on a Tool site, posting how much they love tool, and then claiming ogt or ngt, when the whole point of Tool ever using those abbeviations in the first fucking place was to make fun of people who had the mentality to use those terms in reference to the band. As far as fans shitting on other fans because they haven't been listening to a certain band as long as them, thats just a crock of shit. I've been listening to Tool since the Undertow album (which is far back enough for me because I can't stand Opiate) and anytime I'm playing some Tool or any other band that I think is fucking badass, and someone thinks its cool, and wants to learn more about the band, I think thats awesome that they found something new and that I have a chance to share a band with someone who has never experienced the shit before. The only time I would get defensive about a band I've been listening to for a long time, is if some dumbass whos been into them for like a month comes up and starts running his mouth at me, trying to "clue me in" when he doesn't even know what the fuck he's talking about. As far as Tool goes though, I think that they were underated for far too long, and its awesome to see so many new people getting into music that actually encourages you to think for yourself, question everything, and maybe use that soft gray matter inside your skull for something more than just regurgitating everyone else's views and trying to get laid with the chick next door

[4nick8]

[i]but i have been next to quite a few thick-necked idiots who keep their copy of Ænima next to their new saliva and disturbed cds. [/B]

I was in the nosebleeds at tools oct. 20 indianapolis performance, and there was some fucking hilljack redneck behind me doing the loudest rebel yell I'd ever heard every time the music stopped. I mean, he was RIGHT behind me, a foot and a half from the back of my head. I thought it was going to burst my eardrums.

It did detract from the experience.

I've been listening to tool since '93, and all I have to say is that the amount of time has given me more familiarity with the songs and content than someone who has listened to them for 3 months. Though, that does not make me a better, nor a more informed fan. Back in '93 I didn't know that I wouldn't even have the internet at home for another 5 years, and thus, I had no idea of how many like-minded people there were out there to share ideas with.