muddy watters = porn

[LabRat404]

I'm fairly certain its about a porn addict reluctant to admit his fetishes.

listen to it and think about "porn" and I'm sure some will agree with me.

edit: excuse the term "addict"

[swampyfool]

Maybe when you listen to it, it speaks to your porn addiction . . .

Come on, just admit you wanna drink the pee . . .

[LabRat404]

Maybe when you listen to it, it speaks to your porn addiction . . .

Come on, just admit you wanna drink the pee . . .

relationism has nothing to do with this song in particular, as it's an outward portrayal of someone else. imagine, if yo will:


Person A: you're a [derogative word synonymous with "homosexual"], Maynard!
Maynard: Who are you to wave your finger? You must be out your head! Eyehole deep in porn, etc etc etc


edit: and perhaps the mud is poo! hehe

edit: and no offenses should be taken. I'm not saying that appologetically, I'm saying that because there aren't any to appologize for. /disclaimer

[Terry21]

What? Lol, Lab Rat is confusing me.

[Phorty]

Porn was definitely the last thing on my mind when listening to maynard in falsetto , but to each his own.
The song is about hypocrites or someone who has been hypocritical , the subject matter doesn’t really matter , but if you'd like to think that it somehow refers to debauched sex or someone harassing maynard because of "his secret perversions" , then go right on ahead.

[LabRat404]

Porn was definitely the last thing on my mind when listening to maynard in falsetto , but to each his own.
The song is about hypocrites or someone who has been hypocritical , the subject matter doesn’t really matter , but if you'd like to think that it somehow refers to debauched sex or someone harassing maynard because of "his secret perversions" , then go right on ahead.

thats not quite what I was getting at.


What I'm trying to say is that, yes, its about a hypocrite. but not jsut that. it's about a hypocrite who has a dirty secret that he himself lashes out against.

sure one coudl drink coke and say "you suck for drinking coke", but the target of the song has done something more along the lines of watching something questionable, which we'll call "Subject Material A", and then saying "you suck for watchign Subject Material A because it's questinable."

hence "eyeballs deep in muddy watter"

[swampyfool]

Meh . . .

[implandnoises]

Well I wonder, I wonder, every place I go
Yeah you know I just wonder, I wonder, every place I go
My letter's gone dead, and my pencil it won't write no more

Sometime I wonder why she put me out of doors (I don't like that one)
Yeah sometime I wonder why she put me out of doors
Well you know my letter's gone dead, and my pencil it won't write no more

Anybody ask you, why did I punch you in your nose
Yeah you know if anybody ask you, why did I punch you in your nose
Well you know my letter's gone dead, and my pencil it won't write no more

I went to buy some ink, but they don't keep it no more in the stores
Yeah you know I went to buy myself some ink, but they don't keep it no more in the stores
Well you know my letter's gone dead, and my pencil it won't write no more

[spacemonkeyadb]

The target of the song has done something more along the lines of watching something questionable, which we'll call "Subject Material A", and then saying "you suck for watchign Subject Material A because it's questinable."

hence "eyeballs deep in muddy watter"
I don't see this at all. Are you perhaps mistakenly taking that line to mean "Your eyeballs are in really deep muddy water" rather than "You're in muddy water so deep that it is up to your eyeballs"?

[LabRat404]

I don't see this at all. Are you perhaps mistakenly taking that line to mean "Your eyeballs are in really deep muddy water" rather than "You're in muddy water so deep that it is up to your eyeballs"?

How can you say I'M mistaken? Have you spoken with Tool about the lyrics?

But yes, I'm "taking that line to mean 'Your eyeballs are in really deep muddy water' rather than 'You're in muddy water so deep that it is up to your eyeballs'", and any interpretation is subject to the same possibility of correctness until proven otherwise by the writer/singer, and even then who's to say its not disinformation?

I think Tool intentionally throws us phrases which can be interpreted in multiple ways. I do it in my writing, and it makes for better writing /because/ of the many more possible interpretations.

Even so, who's not to say you're eyeballs deep in porn? my idea still stands that (Muddy Water == porn). The only reason he could be in muddy water so deep that its up to his eyeballs is that he's in trouble. why muddy water? because there's something dirty somewhere...the water which he is in. whatever he's dwelling in (porn, its possible).

[spacemonkeyadb]

^ OK. So I was right about how you are interpreting that line. And it is my OPINION that you are mistaken in interpreting it this way.

Compare with "elbow deep inside the borderline" (Stinkfist) and "you're in knee deep and going in" (Swamp Song). What I have described as the 'correct' interpretation is clearly common imagery for Tool songs.

Hardly conclusive I know, but if your only supporting evidence for your "porn-addiction" interpretation is this one line which doesn't need to be interpreted in your way, then I would say the idea is not very well supported at all.
And I see no other evidence in the lyrics for your claim that the song is attacking someone specifically for 'watching' something objectionable.

[A Tad Bit Catatonic]

Bah - it's just a metaphore for saying "you're blind". Eyehole means you have no eyes so you can't see the truth, and you're doubly blind because you have muddy water (water that isn't clear and therefore you can't see through) in your eye socket. If muddy water does have a double meaning though, I like to think it's oil as a wise soul once suggested on here.

[swampyfool]

^ If it's oil, then it's most likely a Bush (and cronies) reference. That said, it could just as easily be the muddy waters of Katrina in New Orleans.

[LabRat404]

^ OK. So I was right about how you are interpreting that line. And it is my OPINION that you are mistaken in interpreting it this way.

Compare with "elbow deep inside the borderline" (Stinkfist) and "you're in knee deep and going in" (Swamp Song). What I have described as the 'correct' interpretation is clearly common imagery for Tool songs.

Hardly conclusive I know, but if your only supporting evidence for your "porn-addiction" interpretation is this one line which doesn't need to be interpreted in your way, then I would say the idea is not very well supported at all.
And I see no other evidence in the lyrics for your claim that the song is attacking someone specifically for 'watching' something objectionable.

good points.

[iAMtheMA!]

i didn't read anyone elses post, so forgive me for repeating ideas, but "eyehole deep in muddy waters" (i'd say "absolutely") refers to YOUR THIRD EYE (singular, see?) being covered even more because we haven't learned how to swim yet (see: "right in two" lyrics: "repugnant is a creature who would squander the ability to lift an eye to heaven, conscious of his fleeting time here"). everything that tool has created for us refers to the water rising, just like the story of noah and that damn arc. from where maynard is (his perspective), the dude is on firm ground trying to talk to us. to aide us along (to be a "tool") as he and the rest of the band have been for more than a decade! a tool for ascension. or do you think that "to ascend you must die, you must be crucified" ??? as far as i can tell, the only thing keeping mjk from ascension is us. he is "the patient"... but our time is fleeting here.

see: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pole_shift_theory
even the discovery channel has told us "it's not a matter of if, it's a matter of WHEN ... and we're overdue."

yeah... "learn to swim"

[LabRat404]

i didn't read anyone elses post, so forgive me for repeating ideas, but "eyehole deep in muddy waters" (i'd say "absolutely") refers to YOUR THIRD EYE (singular, see?) being covered even more because we haven't learned how to swim yet (see: "right in two" lyrics: "repugnant is a creature who would squander the ability to lift an eye to heaven, conscious of his fleeting time here"). everything that tool has created for us refers to the water rising, just like the story of noah and that damn arc. from where maynard is (his perspective), the dude is on firm ground trying to talk to us. to aide us along (to be a "tool") as he and the rest of the band have been for more than a decade! a tool for ascension. or do you think that "to ascend you must die, you must be crucified" ??? as far as i can tell, the only thing keeping mjk from ascension is us. he is "the patient"... but our time is fleeting here.

see: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pole_shift_theory
even the discovery channel has told us "it's not a matter of if, it's a matter of WHEN ... and we're overdue."

yeah... "learn to swim"

since you didn't read any of our replies, I only read the first line or so of yours.

I hadn't considered that he was talking about a "Third Eye" but that make a lot of sense. Other than that, I believe he meant "Learn to Swim" literally. I don't think they'd have put that spiffy optical illusion thingy in the Aenima CD of California going under the Pacific Ocean if it was just a metaphor.

[LabRat404]

After enduring this thread, I find my original idea to be very silly.

[Phorty]

it wasn't silly , it was your opinion which was worth the read.

[ToolKlouD]

^agreed
dont worry about it. i thought it was a good post. :)

[iAMtheMA!]

I hadn't considered that he was talking about a "Third Eye" but that make a lot of sense. Other than that, I believe he meant "Learn to Swim" literally. I don't think they'd have put that spiffy optical illusion thingy in the Aenima CD of California going under the Pacific Ocean if it was just a metaphor.

"learn to swim" was in reference to what we must do before the poles shift (and definitely has a lot to do with the world's oceans being predicted to rise due to it's ten-degree-increase over the next hundred years - our fault entirely), so i meant it as a literal kinda thing, too. when it happens, land will rise, land will fall, and land will fly across the world (to wherever the magnetic fields needs it for settlement and balance) - this, in turn, will create unstable ground everywhere and winds of 1,500 mph - for about 22 hours, i hear. you won't recognize the world afterwards, that's for sure. either way, "learn to swim" is the same warning that "meant nothing" in "swamp song". warning of our "fleeting time here".

"learn to swim" >>> when we were young, our parents would try to get us to function on another plane - water. that's what i'm thinking tool means by this, we've gotta start recognizing (remembering: "muscle memory") our prana, to "crucify the ego" (which doesn't say stop referring to yourself - it means that we are all one - "god is love, and love is all there is"), and then we can activate our merkaba fields and exist on a completely new plane of existence and perspective.

[LabRat404]

"learn to swim" was in reference to what we must do before the poles shift (and definitely has a lot to do with the world's oceans being predicted to rise due to it's ten-degree-increase over the next hundred years - our fault entirely), so i meant it as a literal kinda thing, too. when it happens, land will rise, land will fall, and land will fly across the world (to wherever the magnetic fields needs it for settlement and balance) - this, in turn, will create unstable ground everywhere and winds of 1,500 mph - for about 22 hours, i hear. you won't recognize the world afterwards, that's for sure. either way, "learn to swim" is the same warning that "meant nothing" in "swamp song". warning of our "fleeting time here".

"learn to swim" >>> when we were young, our parents would try to get us to function on another plane - water. that's what i'm thinking tool means by this, we've gotta start recognizing (remembering: "muscle memory") our prana, to "crucify the ego" (which doesn't say stop referring to yourself - it means that we are all one - "god is love, and love is all there is"), and then we can activate our merkaba fields and exist on a completely new plane of existence and perspective.

That all ties in very well, but it just seems too epic because it spans so many albums. Its just too copmlex if you consider the line "overthinking, overanalyzing separates the body from the mind, withering my intuition leaving opportunity behind."

We can make a lot of very compelling evidence about Tool's songs -- but the problem is that a lot of it contradicts one another.

[iAMtheMA!]

it is epic. not even epic enough, actually. probably why they dished it off to what bill hicks had talked about all along as well. it all ties together, a huge exciting puzzle. and i can't seem to dig deep enough. but i think all that over thinking stuff has to do with us trying to cut things into two all the time (even though cause and effect consists of three entities - a "triad" if you will - see: the yin-yang symbol), when actually there's probably just one way.

[zchgla1]

I always thought it was "eyeballs deep" so I assumed it meant we're up to our eyeballs in hypocritical bullshit. It very well may be A meaning. This doesn't mean it's the ONLY meaning.

[Terry21]

I always thought it was "eyeballs deep" so I assumed it meant we're up to our eyeballs in hypocritical bullshit. It very well may be A meaning. This doesn't mean it's the ONLY meaning.

Same here.

[Pårȃđīǥm]

^ If it's oil, then it's most likely a Bush (and cronies) reference. That said, it could just as easily be the muddy waters of Katrina in New Orleans.

i like this interpretation of it, but that's just the anarchist in me

[myjimmyjim]

one way just like to heaven right.
alexjmaro.com explains most of this.

[jamil5454]

Man is it confusing to register as a member on this forum?
Is this a question?

Pertaining to the topic, you're paying too much attention to the lyrics. You're "overthinking" and "overanalyzing" them. Oh my God I just did it!

I'm happy :-(

[AlcheMilla]

[...

Pertaining to the topic, you're paying too much attention to the lyrics. You're "overthinking" and "overanalyzing" them. Oh my God I just did it!

I'm happy :-([/QUOTE]

And I was getting worried that I was the only one not "thinking" around here, thank u, for joining me in pure pleasure without analysis...

As for the meaning, what IS wrong with the most obvious interpretation....

"I always thought it was "eyeballs deep" so I assumed it meant we're up to our eyeballs in hypocritical bullshit. It very well may be A meaning. This doesn't mean it's the ONLY meaning."
sounds really good to me...

[IC]

muddy waters is probebly ment to go along with the whole theme of hypocrasy like
muddy waters/ being vauge, hard to see through, no clear point
i dunno. but the porn theory really isnt compelling.

[WwWwW]

to be honest I think it's just a way to describe something, a feeling

eyeballs deep in muddy waters... that kind be really nice. You can see nothing, nobody can see you, and it hurts like hell

same goes for

foot in mouth and head up ass, now what're you talking about?.. it is kinda hard to put your foot in your mouth and your head up you ass, but apperently it's worth it, because people can barely hear you or know what you're talking about. You'll do this even though it can be quite painful.

Maynard sings my two big sentences in a few words, I think, especially in the pot, but also in general, you need to get in the lyrics to understand everything about it.

=D

[x7 Lateralus 7x]

Maybe he's talking about bong water >.>, as we all know, it's not very clear ^.^
Also, if this hasn't been mentioned before (well has this?) - could be about the conspiracy the gov't has going on with the drugs. They bust people with drugs > confiscate > donate a portion to medical studies > keep the rest and redeal it themselves through "legal" dealers > keep the profit and repeat the process for it's far more greater than what putting a tax on them could get them. Pretty much- I think he's calling them hypocrits, and we can definitly feel that vibe in this song. Any thoughts? And if this has been said before, let me know.

-Dave

[notregistered]

Aenima had nothing to do with the north and south pole shifting a few degrees over a very long peroid of time. "Learn to swim" meant that if you live in LA and the San Andres Fault broke off from America and sank, you would have to swim to survive. LA represents a lot of things maynard doesn't like about America, its materialism, how superficial it is, its idol worship. It was a metaphor for connecting with people on a deeper basis and learning to swim together in the collective unconscious.
The Pot is about hypocrisy in general. I think it's a shot at Rush Limbaugh for some reason. He said that all drug offenders should be locked up and shit like that and meanwhile he's getting high himself. Hypocrisy. He must of been high when he said that.

[WwWwW]

the learn to swim part is about that Maynard wants hollywood to be flushed away, it has nothing to do with physics or something... I think
And yeah the Pot is hypocricy in general, I don't think it's about drugs, it's about the money.

[jnick3810]

i dont see the porn link either, ive often thought stinkfist was about porn adiction but not this song, but then again the great thing about a tool song is that it can mean so many different things, so to each his own i guess

[LabRat404]

i dont see the porn link either, ive often thought stinkfist was about porn adiction but not this song, but then again the great thing about a tool song is that it can mean so many different things, so to each his own i guess

I think its blatantly obvious that stinkfist is about desensitization; the need for MORE of "this or that" when the "usual" fails to suffice.

[jnick3810]

I think its blatantly obvious that stinkfist is about desensitization; the need for MORE of "this or that" when the "usual" fails to suffice.

That could be but i think the link to porn adiction is just as strong as your link to porn adiction in the pot. but the stinkfist discussion is for a different forum

[Inner_Eulogy]

I can't believe people are still responding to this thread. You have got to be absolutely retarded to think this song is about porn addiction.

[LabRat404]

I can't believe people are still responding to this thread.

When I saw in my list subscriptions that someone had replied to this thread yet again, I decided I was going to remark that I can't believe people are still keeping this thread alive.

You have got to be absolutely retarded to think this song is about porn addiction.

It was nothing more than an open observation. Now please excuse me while I go and lose respect for you.

[Inner_Eulogy]

It was nothing more than an open observation. Now please excuse me while I go and lose respect for you.

THIS, is not the comment of an "observation", you clearly stated that your opinion was that it's about a porn addict. Now kick yourself in the ass and sit down while you contemplate the stupidity behind the faintest idea that this song has anything to do with porn. Me thinks you should also delete all that child pornography from your computer and seek some help since you're likely talking from personal experiences.


I'm fairly certain its about a porn addict reluctant to admit his fetishes.

listen to it and think about "porn" and I'm sure some will agree with me.

edit: excuse the term "addict"

[LabRat404]

Ever tried, I dunno, maybe not being an ASSHOLE?

I am judging you by your persistent arrogance, and I believe you don't deserve to live. I forsee anyone living a much happier life by not ever having to come in to contact with you, the persistent asshole.

thats just my opinion, but ya know, its probably true. If I hadn't already lost all respect for you, you might've ruined my day.

[Inner_Eulogy]

Ever tried, I dunno, maybe not being an ASSHOLE?

I am judging you by your persistent arrogance, and I believe you don't deserve to live. I forsee anyone living a much happier life by not ever having to come in to contact with you, the persistent asshole.

thats just my opinion, but ya know, its probably true. If I hadn't already lost all respect for you, you might've ruined my day.

I hope you're whole week was ruined. I really hope you have discussed your addictions with your counselor...you need help. Pointing your finger at me for pointing out your mental issues only creates a scapegoat and does not resolve the problem.

[wearethestories]

okay okay

I see what you're saying about the "dirty secret" thing... and I think that goes along with the "kettle/pot" theory as very well without having any relation to porn. As far as the "muddy water" is concerned, I think that is merely metaphor for "vision is cloudy" "can't see straight" "blind" or, more along with your interpreation, the idea of a Scriptural metaphor often used of having a splinter in your eye whilst trying to remove a plank from someone else's [an ancient example akin to your "coke" idea]

[latifbp]

LabRAt404... There is a reason that this thread has continued, and has gone on so long. Don't give up on your porn addict interpretation. Porn addict may not be the best description, but Voyeurism and some sort of Scopic paraphilia. Eyes are ALL OVER this album!!! Just look at the actual CD!!! It is also true that the reference to eyehole deep in muddy water is referring to the blindness to truth of the hypocrite, no doubt. But, as you said it is overdetermined. Another interesting twist to the connection between blindness (others are insinuating) and your interpretation of a masturbation addict may be that in the old days people used to tell those who masturbated too much that they would go BLIND. And, if people want to start making religious refernces, about Noahs' arc and shit, then this solidifies it even more. Not to mention past album art of Tool of a guy giving himself fellatio, or another guy copulating a dead corpse... necrophilia. Maynard never ceases to make some reference, even if obscure, to sexuality in some way, and the judgements society imposes on it, especially while not considering their own, or being BLIND, if you will, to their own lascivious machinations.

[Inner_Eulogy]

Of course he felt so strongly about this porn addiction thing he had to create a screen name just so he could post his sense of agreement. You sir, also need to see a psychiatrist.

[latifbp]

I am a psychiatrist.

[LabRat404]

we'll never know until the band decides to elaborate. for all we know it could be literally about drudging thorough eye-balls-deep mud.

[Inner_Eulogy]

I am a psychiatrist.

Well that's just crazy talk

[latifbp]

Yes, we will never know for sure what the song is about. It is not all about porn or sexuality, but there is some allusion by Maynard in his albums, and when it comes to imposing judgement, sex, choices about how to express sexuality, sexual preference, how one chooses to get off, are always at the center of controversy, and bring out the greatest hypocrisy. Just look at how this thread evolved: one guy went out on a branch and ventured to invoke a porn addict masturbater intepretation, and is told that he should see a psychiatrist. It is exactly what the song is about. Imposing judgement, acting with hubris and hypocridy. It is really cool how this thread played out the theme of the song. Sex, drugs, taking the high road, hypocrisy, and telling those fools to fuck off. Who was that asshole Senator in Florida trying to make laws and legislate against gay marriage, yet was being a pedophile and soliciting teen boys for sex from the internet? Drugs, too, for sure. Especially, in California, when the voters voted to legalize medical marijuana, then the government wants to arrest people for growing plants though they have prescriptions. Small government, states rights, unless the moralizing assholes in the White House don't like it. Oh hell, maybe it's too heavy. We should just sit back and watch people argue over who has custody of Anna Nicole Smith's dead body.

[wearethestories]

Well that's just crazy talk

HAHAHAHAHA

[latifbp]

So Maynard is not only talking about Pot (refer, ganja), but also a sex pot ((eye) balls deep in muddy water), but in doing so is also stirring The Pot

[LabRat404]

pot is pot. the pot is whatever your craving is.

[latifbp]

Sure. Cravings is a good way to put it. I think the play on the word POT is meaningful, and can't be ignored. Hypocrisy crystalizes around certain themes... but in whatever sense I think, as usual, Maynard brings up controversial, sometimes disturbing things and images to "stir the pot," if you'll allow me this cliche, to pull people out of their own comfort zones and cocoons and experience the truth... but in any case, your initial interpretation in this thread really opened up how I saw the meaning of this song, and I thank you for it...

[tryptosaur]

Maybe there is a pornographic inuendo going on here. And it cums back to Katrina.
Towards the end it does sound like he's saying "your balls deep in muddy water".
Which could mean if you are feeling sexually aroused while listening to this song, then it must be you whom the song is about (in this twisted interpretation).
I say this jokingly, of course. For all I know the song is about my grandma's nextdoor neighbor, only in the astral dimension of Lybia every other Tuesday.

[jevons]

Muddy waters = trouble of your own.

And Judith spake: Who the fuck do you think you are, telling me how'z to live when you are out all night with those, whatchacallem's, those CAD's, those children of the anachronistic dynasty, you think you can tell your own mother, your own flesh and blood how to live, well if that's the case then i'm going to drop colloquialisms on you till the cows come home like any good mother would.

And Maynard spake: Hey, that might make a good song someday...

Tere is no porn reference, shit is brown unless it's black or green, the coincidence is certainly undeniable... but it just don't sound Maynard.

But you know what does sound Maynard? Intentionally mocking Muddy Waters and the tiredness of Southern blues (while blowing it's doors of with the song) in a quip that is really about his mother's way of speaking. In colloquialisms. Gnaw mane?
A post in time saves two.

Love and kisses,
Zaphod

[thezeusanator]

why in the fuck would this song be about the tiredness of southern blues and not northern or eastern or western blues? or blues at all? How often is a pentatonic type riff emloyed in Tool's music? YOu know who else used pentatonis riffs, blues artist, you know where rock came from? Blues. Black Sabbath, Led Zeppelin, the Beatles, PINK FLOYD! they all had some blues in them and so does Tool, lachromology, crying. pain, The Blues!
The porn addict thing? well the lower chakras are located in the genatal region and are assosiated with sex and agression and the third eye is the sixth chakra, the seventh chakra is on the top of the head wich is what that thing in the schism video looks like, so I would say that the porn addict thing is not too far off, but the song is directed at hypocrits ie. Guity as the Government.

[Inner_Eulogy]

This thread should never have been started. I won't sit here and say I know the exact intent of the song but, it surely takes someone with the special ability to lack any intellect and common sense to think this song has any relation to fucking porn. Now back to your cage monkey!