the spiral

[okkoto]

i think DNA helix when i hear this.

any other thoghts?

[fear + loathing]

thats interesting but i think of it as society being at the center or near the center of the spiral and when mjk sings "spiral out" at the end of the song its like spiralling away from what everyone else is doing and thinking for yourself. Its about being different from everyone and not following the trends. its probably pretty far from what they meant it to be but that doesn't matter.

[Smokin joe]

I would just think spiral out means expand yourself. The meaning can be as deep as the mood dictates. Spirals are like circles except they never end, they just keep going round and round, never meeting an end, always expanding the orignial shape of the spiral. So just like how a spiral expands itself, so should one's attitude at the moment, whether it be expanding knowledge in a certain field, to expanding ones efforts on a specific plan.

joe

[okkoto]

"spiral out" can definately be inturpreted as expand yourself, but i was thinking "swing on the spiral of our divinity"

[alexboche]

I believe what mjk meant was that all life is a spiral. DNA is a spiral, the milky way is a spiral, evolution is a spiral... This is emphasized a lot by Alex Grey, who did the art for Lateralus. Check out the sacred mirrors at www.alexgrey.com

[asphexict]

definitely sends out the message to think, live. ever changing. keep going. keep learning, and teaching what you can truely. swing around the essence of life as to embrace every aspect thereof. never pass any idea and believe you're better than anything else. we're all in the spiral of life making up the grand design of things just as a nebula creates stars to bring about what they will. never become stagnent in one place or idealistic way. always keep yourself open to life around you, as we are semmingly an aspect of a whole in our imaginations comes the reality of our dreams swimming through time. we are the very force of all that surrounds us as all is in respect to us, but not for us, just is. we are one one is the beginning are you one herbert? i am not herbert. sorry i just love that little sample from white zombie. though when wecatagorize and pick and taer at our thoughts we take it too far into what our own selfish thoughts may want it to be cause it seems to agree with you better in that respect. things are as they are and not always the colour of what we may expect, but we all know this. just take a look outside, breathe.

[The Pharoah]

that was my first thought too, okkoto, about DNA. I just had a weird feeling about it. I thought that maynard was trying to connect all of us as humans while acknowledging that we are all different. After listening more to the song though, I'd have to agree with Joe and his interpretation of the concept.

[dawn.]

anyone else think of nin lyrics when they listen to tool as well...spirals, undertow...repeated by both bands quite often...even at the concerts, the projections on screens resemble each other, tools' watery images and durring fragiltiy the whole scenes going on durring la mer/the great below/the mark has been made...i'm rambling, sorry to go off topic...

as far as the sacred mirrors...those definatly would be something to see in person some day...

[TheHollow]

Here's something to ponder about...

The DNA spiral, resembles the way chi is depicted to "spiral up" in Buddhist and Hindu meditation. If you look at this helix from the top, you'll see a symbol most in the West know as Yin-Yang (actually it is called taiji, and it symbolizes the fine line between yim and yang), hence a Taoist connection. Finally the Greek word for evolution is "exelixi", or "from the helix" in English...

None of these are my original ideas, but it's real interesting to see how they all fit nicely here isn't it?

[Smokin joe]

if you look down on a helix you can see a yin-yang symbol? That's so coooool. I gotta go check that out.

joe

[a_divine_martyr]

i always thought of the spiral as our mental state of mind.

the higher you go, the more divine you become (the lyrics to mention something like this)

and as how it's a spiral, as opposed to a latter, that you can't tell the difference between any 2 points unless you're not on it.

it's a gradual state where you just do it without spending forever on one "rung" or whatever you want to use as a metaphor (correct termanology?). and just as how you can't tell if you're ascending or descending, you can't tell if you fall from that state of mind. it just happens.

and even as you're at the top of the spiral (should there be one), you're still capable of falling and making mistakes

"...to swing on the spiral
of our divinity and still be a human."

[Tywi]

I love that idea which a_divine_martyr just put up, relating to how you can't tell the difference between any two points on a spiral. That's something about the spiral imagery which I never even considered, and thats what I love so much about Maynard's metaphors and stuff... they are always so rich and open to expansion!

Personally I see this song as Tool's summation of how we should approach life as human beings. Indeed: 'I embrace my desire to... swing on the spiral of our divinity and still be a human' made me think of how we should never succumb to petty social barriers or boundaries when they are preventing us from expressing ourselves and/or existing in perfect harmony. We should embrace our desires to do exactly what we want to do, rather than perceiving existence as whatever is dictated to us by the authorities. Of course, in this way it links in with the Timothy Leary quote which opens Salival. The difference seems to be that Lateralus is focusing on what can be done once these boundaries are broken.

As a side note: I love these boards so much! There should be an Opinions section for every great band in the world.

[Microsoul]

I always thought DNA helix, too. I do remember during Lateralus, when they just played here in Phoenix, that they had something that looked like the twisted DNA, first being black and white, then red and yellow.

[a_divine_martyr]

i understand how it could look like a DNA strand, but how would this be incomporated into the song? just kinda curious

[Microsoul]

Originally posted by a_divine_martyr
i understand how it could look like a DNA strand, but how would this be incomporated into the song? just kinda curious

About evolving....

[Christopher]

"and even as you're at the top of the spiral (should there be one), you're still capable of falling and making mistakes "

and the lyrics state "and still be human" People use that all the time when they make mistakes..... "hey i'm just human"

makes you think. makes you want to take chances....be volnurable........after all thats being human.

[TheHollow]

Originally posted by Microsoul


About evolving....

That's what I was trying to explain earlier, when I said that the Greek word for evolution is "exelixi", or from the spiral!

[a_divine_martyr]

i still fail to see how evolving has anything to do with our genetic makeup. if someone could please shed some light on why they associated evolving with DNA it would be appreciated

[TheHollow]

It has A LOT to do with our genetic make up. First of all, you can literally change your genetic makeup while evolving through meditation. Secondly, if you think about it the very foundation of being a human being, is the genetic makeup we can find in a DNA cell, looks like we know it looks. Coincidence? Well... If it is, it would be a real freakout to see that the same symbol has been used by civilizations all over the world throughout history, describing how yin and yang chi work in the human body. The Hindus and Buddhists have the "spiral" moving from the perineum (hui yin), all the way up to the crown chakra (ba hui), and joining at each of the 7 main chakras. Ancient Mesopotamians had a symbol of two snakes, joining in 7 points, to symbolize power. Ancient Greeks had Hermes' staff, which was exactly the same as the Mesopotamian snakes. In physics today we have the standing wave, which shows action and counter-action.
Personally I DO see a connection between all these... But it could be just me...

[okkoto]

also when tool plays this song live the image on the screen is sorta a double helix made of spines. like i said that was the first thing i thought of when i heard the lyrics then to see that image at the concert made me smile.

i believe biology is sort of the holiest science. it's fulll of these miracles really: birth, dna, cells, etc etc and i think thats an element of the song, to recognize that life is something divine, this is a hard song to nail though absolutely.

[paraflux]

despite the valiant attempts, which are not incorrect, btw, any definitions in our language will fail to explain what the spiral is. I can only explain what I felt. When I shroomed to this album, during the end of this song I felt something happen. It's like lights started flicking on inside my body cavity (which was celestial in size, how it was condensed inside my body, your guess is as good as mine) and it was like switches were being flicked and something was starting up. Then when the last part came, the actual spiral, with the drums and guitars in different time sigs, I saw the spiral. It was always there, in my cavity, I had just let things overgrow on it. When it started spinning I thought I was going to pass out. It ripped away from the things that had overgrown it, ripped and shredded anything in its way. I felt it extend and go up out of me, like the artwork on the cover. I still feel it when I hear it now, not quite as powerful, but still very much alive.

Even now, with these words I have failed to explain it well enough. Nothing will do until you feel it for yourself.

[Duke]

Originally posted by okkoto
i think DNA helix when i hear this.

any other thoghts?

I don't think there as any 'real' point of reference to assign to the song as a whole. I think of an irrational number, seeking its identity to infinity. Numbers/mathmatics can be assigned to anything we choose, a common language to communitcate our thoughts in an objective format, enabling more possibities for communicating on common ground... so to speak.We are merely energy/existance impossibly aware of 'ourselves,'we understand that 'ourselves/everything' is growing exponentially into every next moment. In my romantic mental meanderings, I see everything-Tool as layers of blueprints for understanding, the further away from any givin' topic, the more they all look the same and can be manipulated the same. Energy, no matter what the application(i.e. gravity, light, water, elctricity) behaves very much in the same way; we are just another application for it to express its creativity, and when we consider ourselves more honestly(warts and all) we stop seeing our limitations, and assume our potential; propelling existence, humanity, etc. into the unknown, fearless and confident.

So I wouldn't attempt to limit the 'meaning' of Lateralus to anything you, I, or even Tool has yet to experience. The song inspires hope for this recovering Athiest/Objectivist. Its the interruptions along the journey like TOOL that have me looking forward to the next mental molestation.

- " ...those things that hurt, instruct."
- Benjamin Franklin

[the reverend]

I see the representation of the spiral in Lateralus to relate to the Golden Mean Spiral.

Infomation abou the Golden Mean Spiral can be found here:
http://www.floweroflife.org/spiral01.htm

This theory has since been proved false.
But still, an interesting read.

[phnord]

I'd say this track is relating to Leary's 8 circuits of conciousness, where the future of human evolution is already contained in our DNA (the spiral). Riding the spiral to the end is referring to pushing ourselves forward and in Leary's model eventually evolving to survive in non-terrestrial environments.

http://deoxy.org/8circuit.htm is a useful site