"10,000 days" = 1 Saturn revolution

[Godin]

Here's a radical thought. Consider that maybe the sentiments in "The Grudge" and "10,000 days (wings pt. II)" are similiar. By "similiar" I mean that they both allude to the same stage of an individual's life, that of being when one is roughly 10,000 days old. Let me elaborate:


"10,000 days in the fire is long enough. You're coming home."
-10,000 days (wings pt. II)

"Saturn ascends... comes 'round again... ignorant to the damage done."
-The Grudge


One saturn revolution is roughly 10,500 days. When an individual comes upon the time in their life where they have lived through one full Saturn revolution (when they are about 10,000 days old), it is thought by the new-age spiritual/astrological types that this is a significant period in one's life. It is a time of great reflectivity, but most importantly it is an opportunity to make either a decisive positive change in your life or to perhaps neglect the opportunity for such change and so your inactivity "drags you down like a stone". Can you see how there might be a correlation between the notion of holding a "grudge" and being presented with an opportunity to let the grudge go at the coming of your first Saturn revolution, and similarly the notion of spending "10,000 days in the fire" to then finally go "home"? It seems to me that Maynard considers 10,000 days of existence as a significant period in one's life, a time which is ripe for creating change in ones' self.

Is it possible that the song "10,000 days" might not be exclusively about the length of time his mother suffered? Might it be instead about an anonymous individual who was coming upon their first Saturn revolution and of whom might have been immersed in a torturous existence basically since birth; an individual of whom passed a light on to Maynard by supporting Maynard as a fan in his musical career, and of whom Maynard is now showing his appreciation for by letting that light shine "to guide you safely on your way home". Can this song be interpreted as Maynard paying his respects to the constituent of his audience who are roughly 10,000 days old, all of whom most likely have been Tool fans since the beginning? If so, Jambi also touches upon the "I, Maynard, am indebted to you, the listener, for my success. Therefore, I will shine down upon you, etc".

The main obstacle to such an interpretation of this song would be the explicit Judith Marie mention at the end, which most people assume must be a reference to his mother... Judith was also a character in the bible (perhaps of whom his mother was named after). Might the name Judith Marie in the song simply refer to any person who has spent roughly 10,000 days in the fire and maintained the blind faith throughout their lives that the bible character Judith is distinguished for? I'll end here to allow people to shoot me down. I sincerely appreciate any responses.


-Godin

[BlanketEffect]

Roughly 30 years? I don't think Maynard feels too many people are that devout.

"None of them could even hold a candle up to you"

Good idea, good insight... I don't think it was intended, though.

[Godin]

Well, yes, not many people would persist with such a struggle, so the character referred to in the song as the "you" figure would certainly be a rare type. Consider this: If you connect the character described in "10,000 days (wings pt. II)" with the characters described in other songs on the album (like "Rosetta Stoned" and "Vicarious"), then the type of person referred to throughout the album, or at least in various instances, would become even more specified and hence more rare.

He would be someone who's beared a difficult existence for roughly 10,000 days, who is vampire-like in the sense that he has been surviving by feeding off of tragedy (his own tragedy through self-pity as well as dramatic tragedy in the arts, etc), and of whom has felt a compelling need to write some profound message concerning "the details of our ending...for all the world to see". This dramatic persona repeatedly fails to accomplish this task because the "transmittal" (vicarious) of the profound message he continually tries to write is only received when he is under the influence of drugs, or "deadhead chemistry" (Rosetta Stoned). He comes down off his high, loses his transmission of the profound message that he is meant to write "for all the world to see", and shits the bed once again, which perpetuates further his "10,000 days in the fire".

If I were to reach outside the "10,000 Days" album to also lean more on the correlation of the SONG "10,000 days ( wings pt. II)" to the sentiment in "The Grudge", I'd suggest that perhaps Maynard is providing the moral "Let go of the grudge you have for conveying this profound message of yours in writing (which you receive by the use of drugs), and end this painful god damned cycle. I am lighting your way out of your 10,000 days in the fire by giving you this advice." Afterall, this moral that I believe touches upon the general sentiment in "The Grudge" is also very consistent with the moralistic line "Don't know, won't know" in "Rosetta Stoned". They both dissuade the listener from continuing the unproductive and harmful ways of their past.

I have developed legitimate reasons as to why I'd think that certain, if not all, the songs on this album contain messages that are consistent with one another, and characterizations for a type of individual that build upon each other song after song. I could elaborate, but will not unless someone calls me on it.

Most important at this time is to establish whether it is at all possible that Maynard is referring to anything other than the amount of time his mother spent suffering with the 10,000 days time period. If I am completely off with that, then the rest loses much interest with me. :-)


-Godin

[BlanketEffect]

Well, I'd say if anything then perhaps The Grudge alludes to the situation with his mother. It wasn't recorded much longer before she died, afterall. So perhaps this enlightens us to the possibility that either Maynard or his mother held a grudge against the other and the song was about letting it go. Only to then write the follow-up song. The song where, indeed, the grudge has been let go and love can take its place. A good idea... again, I don't know how realistic, however.

I don't think his references to 'Saturn' in The Grudge had anything to do with days in its orbit. I think it was more of an astrological reference. Much like the '1' and '10' were references to sacred numerology (or, at least, that's the theory I ascribe to)

Either way, good thoughts all around

[ShadowLine]

i think youve pretty much nailed it. the whole cycle of saturn is about change, about moving into a new part of your (including death) judith had suffered for a whole cycle, and was time to start a new cycle (death). death is only the next path of life.

thanks
chris
x

[Godin]

i think youve pretty much nailed it.

Well then, thanks for the support! You're the first one who has actually agreed with me that there might be a connection between the 10,000 days time period and the first Saturn revolution in one's life.

I'm gonna make a much harder push for this argument soon, with support that Tool did this intentionally. With this induction I've made that 10,000 days might be meant for individuals who are roughly 10,000 days old, I've been gaining a very profound understanding of each of the songs connection to one another on the album. There are almost NO holes in my argument now... I just need the time to put it together. I welcome you to elaborate on any other thoughts you have concerning this subject, Chris.

-Godin

[ShadowLine]

even the saturn cycle could be about his mother, if judith was 60 + when she dided, she could have lived through 2 full cycles. right consider this: her first cycle-birth teenage, having kids., second cycle-gets cancer, start of thrid cycle - death

10,000 days in the fire could be her second cycle.
but then again it could be about the first second and third cycle.

give me time Godin, and i will research this.

chris
x

[ShadowLine]

got it

look at this godin:

http://www.memorialobituaries.com/memorials/memorials.cgi?action=Obit&memid=101490&clientid=toland

judith was 59 when she died, almoast 60.

10,500 days is 29 and a bit years.

so she lived through one cycle, then got cancer we can assume thanks the (10,000 days in the fire) lived through this cancer cycle, and died to begin her 3rd cycle, her new journey.

chris
x

[PriceisRight]

death is only the next path of life.

x

man...tools gonna get real emo really fast. :P

[santel]

man...tools gonna get real emo really fast. :P

Mother of God i hope not......

[toocooltool]

good positive radical thinking

[ShadowLine]

man...tools gonna get real emo really fast. :P

thats not emo, and im not emo. tools music is emotional and full of emotion, i think you get theses things confused.

chris
x

[PriceisRight]

thats not emo, and im not emo. tools music is emotional and full of emotion, i think you get theses things confused.

chris
x

it was sarcasm...but this is the internet.

I think we may need to put little symbols around what is sarcasm and what isn't sometimes.

[ShadowLine]

ah right fair enough

chris
x

[fabienne78]

Thank you Godin for your insightful post. Unfortunately I have nothing to add of significance. But you do have a really good thought going there. The Saturn part I always wondered about, read a lot of info about Saturn but never understood what it had to do with the song. Thank you for solving that piece of the puzzle for me.

How in the world did you find this connection?

Very nice indeed :)

[Godin]

...judith was 59 when she died, almost 60...10,500 days is 29 and a bit years...she lived through one cycle..got cancer...(10,000 days in the fire)...cancer cycle...died to begin her 3rd cycle.

Hmm.. well, everything you've said above only matters if MJK was inspired to write "The Grudge" for similar reasons as to why he wrote "10,000 Days (wings pt. II)". "The Grudge" is the only place where a Saturn revolution is mentioned ("Saturn ascends...comes round again and shows you everything")... it wasn't mentioned anywhere in the song "10,000 days".


I just have a hard time swallowing the fact that Maynard would write such an exclusively personal song for the masses. As he himself said, "All you know about me is what I've sold you". Why would he sell us such exclusively personal sentiments? I'm sure he recognizes that people are mostly self-interested... and want things they pay for to be relevant to their own lives.. usually. This song, if it is to be understood as a personal eulogy to his departed mother, seems to alienate the listener of whom is a stranger to Maynard. I just have a hard time believing that he wrote this song with the exclusive purpose of curing himself of feelings he has for his mother. I think there is a larger purpose... and I have speculated that this "larger purpose" for the song is organic to the united purpose of the album. I just feel it must be... yes, I have suspected there is an irony at work in this album, and it is presented in the sequence of tracks 3-5, and concerning their ironic relation to the track sequence 6-8. Here is a raw idea:

Tracks 6-8 overall depict a person who has falsely perceived that he was told he is "the chosen one". The overall sentiment of this track sequence is that such a person needs to be healed.. needs for their way home to be lighted. Tracks 3-5 project the sentiment to someone (who we only find out at the very end of the 3-4 track sequence is his mother) that this person has "a light in [their] eyes that could end all lies" (#3), and that this person is "the light and the way that they will only read about" (#4), hence this person is being cast, or implicated, as "the chosen one" literally within these songs. Of course, up until the very last few moments of track #4, the track sequence of 3-4 gives the impression that they could be about anybody... only at the end of track 4 is the name "Judith Marie" explicitly given, where of course disallusionment is found at the climax of the track sequence. Then in Track 5 I think the basic message is "you must have been high to believe that the sentiments in my song were directed towards anybody else but myself. You're pissing all over my black kettle, my personal artwork and my personal painful issues, by applying the idea that it is relevant to your own life in any way".

Probably WAAAAY off... but, I just really do have a hard time believing these songs (3-4) are a mere eulogy. Respectfully, of course... because if the ARE just a personal eulogy, I wouldn't want to imply any disregard for MJK's personal matters.

-Godin

[Godin]

How in the world did you find this connection?

Saturn's connection to "The Grudge" or it's potential connection to "10,000 days"?

-Godin

[La Fae Verte]

When I first heard the song 10,000 Days, it rang a bell in my mind relating to something I thought I'd read in The Bible. If anyone has heard of a reference to ten thousand days (in the fire, or out ;) then maybe I'm not insane. But to me, even though I know the song is about his mother, it still says a lot more.

About the Saturn/10,000 Days thing, based on my experience of the song, that suggests that Saturn could be hell.

I'm not really into all that new-agey stuff and I don't really know about spiritual connections and reflectivity/positive changes/spiritual awareness. To me it's mostly bologna. I leave room for possibility, but it's just not for me. However, the connection I think is definately possible. Who's to say previous albums can't mean something in the context of the newer?

[ShadowLine]

yea i know what you mean godin, i think its about his mother whilst not being. i mean i canot begin to imagine what maynard was thinking about when he wrote it. apparetntly in a tool news letter, it was originally going to be called lost keys, which could mean its nothing to do with his mother, and he could just be writing about an acid trip. im not sure. but to be honest your argument is pretty solid and i agree with it.

chris
x

[ShadowLine]

saturn has 10 names which i think ties in with the lyric 'choose one or ten' from 'the grudge'. and as for saturn being hell, in astrology saturn is the planet of 'satan'. and is closely associated with capricorn, the goat. and the 'devil' is represented as a goat. (pentagram with goat head).

chris
x

[BlanketEffect]

Okay... a little factual reference for you all since there seems to be a lot of very thinly-stretched speculation.

The Grudge - as it pertains to this conversation.

The basic gist of the song isn't hard to work out, it's getting around the references to 'Saturn', 'the one', and 'the ten' which take a bit more looking into.

To explain these references, we can look to The Tree of Life, a central part of study of the Byzant Kabbalah, a mystical system that has its roots in Judaism. 'The Tree of Life' describes the descent of the divine into the manifest world, and methods by which divine union may be attained in this life. It can be viewed as a map of the human psyche, and of the workings of creation.

"Saturn" is the Third Path - 'Binah', it is the first to come out of the Abyss, indicated by the color black and representitive of understanding, reason, intelligence, and language. The potentials of Binah are developing self-control, silence, secrecy, impersonal understanding, and objective love.

"The One" refers to the First Path - 'Keter', indicated by white, representative of ideal wisdom, will, inspiration, and spirit. The potentials of Keter include solving the inner quest, revelation, inspiration, and enlightenment.

"The Ten" is the Tenth Path ('Malchut') represented by the Earth, and evocative of the body, earth, and physical reality.

Saturn can be seen as reasoning or realization. In the song it represents the awareness of the grudge and the opportunity to make a decision regarding it - to shrug it off or to keep it up.

One is the most ideal of the three paths meantioned in this song, and can be taken as the influence to forgive and forget - to cast off the grudge.

Ten, on the other hand, is 'the beginning of personality; the physical body', 'the realm of the subconscious... where repressed energies are channelled up'.

Also worth keeping in mind is that the path from the Third Path (Saturn) to the First on the tree diagram is upward and out ('lifts you up like a child') while the path to the Tenth is steeply down. ('Drags you down like a stone')

[Arctangent]

Why would he sell us such exclusively personal sentiments?

losing a parent is a very emotional, traumatic experience to go through. maybe maynard felt the need to put his thoughts, feelings and emotions into a song.

[BlanketEffect]

Not only that, but I think Maynard puts a lot of personal things into all of their songs. The vulnerability is what makes it so damn good.

There are Tool songs about all kinds of things. Songs that apply to many people's lives or whatever personal situation you're going through and want to believe the song was about. Plenty for us to live vicariously through.

[dionigi]

The basic gist of the song isn't hard to work out, it's getting around the references to 'Saturn', 'the one', and 'the ten' which take a bit more looking into.


along with all that good reference material you posted, you may also want to consider the astological event called Saturn's Return [ http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saturn_return ], which i think Godin may have been referencing without actually naming. i've thought it was the gist of The Grudge since i first heard it, but i'm glad to have some more angles to work with (though they do seem to say the same thing, in general).

[Godin]

Saturn's Return...which i think Godin may have been referencing without actually naming.

That's definately what I was referring to... one Saturn revolution, return. Just as long as it comes back to the same place in the sky as it was when you were born. The wikipedia link you provided (which I originally looked for myself but couldn't find) is excellent.

The oncoming of a Saturn return is what I think "The Grudge" is mainly about... and is also what I have considered "10,000 days" serves as a second allusion to. I just think it may be masked with the explicit naming of his mother at the end of the song, who also happens to have suffered for 10,000 days. But there is no denying that the general sentiment of "you're the only one who can hold your head up high and shake your fists at the gates" is very reminiscient of the "rights of passage" thing that the wikipedia article goes into. Gates=gates of adulthood, responsibility for your own fate... give Maynard his wings to fulfill his role as an angel himself by you, the listener, taking his encouraging words to heart and thus crowning MJK as a successfull angel. (since he is the "son to an angel", might that nature also have been passed down to him from his mother?)

an alternate take on the quote:

You're the only one who can hold your head up high [and] shake your fists at the gates saying:

"I've come home now! Fetch me the spirit, the son, and the father." (end of quotes)

[You, the listener, must] tell them (tell the holy trinity) their pillar of faith has ascended. It's time now! My (as in Maynard's) time now! Give me (maynard) my wings!

This was my initial intuitive understanding of these lyrics. It originally did, and still does, sound to me like the quote for the "you" figure ends as I've depicted it in the above quote, right before "tell them their pillar of faith has ascended". It would also explain why during the extended musical interlude after the above part Maynard sings again, as if referring to himself, "Give me (maynard) MY wings...". It's very unnatural to believe that he is implicating himself as his mother saying these words during this part. It makes much more sense that he is speaking for himself, telling the listener to give him his wings by stepping up to responsibility, and taking his lyrics to heart.

It makes sense... otherwise, we have to believe that MJK is espousing dogmatic beliefs with his lyrics, that he actually believes his mother is up in a real place called Heaven and really deserves the audience of the holy trinity. With my alternative take, we are able to translate this lyric into an appeal from MJK to his audience to step up into a responsible role as an adult in life.

"Fetch me the spirit, the son, and the father" could be symbolic for something like "Reveal to me the mystery of the holy trinity, or just the mystery which has been like a splinter in my mind since birth so that I can find resolve with my prolonged search at my 'need to know post' ". (connecting the songs together, as I've believed they're supposed to be somehow)

-Godin

[BlanketEffect]

It makes sense... otherwise, we have to believe that MJK is espousing dogmatic beliefs with his lyrics, that he actually believes his mother is up in a real place called Heaven and really deserves the audience of the holy trinity. With my alternative take, we are able to translate this lyric into an appeal from MJK to his audience to step up into a responsible role as an adult in life.

"Fetch me the spirit, the son, and the father" could be symbolic for something like "Reveal to me the mystery of the holy trinity, or just the mystery which has been like a splinter in my mind since birth so that I can find resolve with my prolonged search at my 'need to know post' ". (connecting the songs together, as I've believed they're supposed to be somehow)

-Godin


I don't think that he was tauting the concept of Heaven, per se . In his mother's sense meaning I don't that's what he is saying she's in the Judeo-Christian Heaven. He's just using terminology befitting her life's type of worship.

Many cultures have many ways of finding 'The Truth* - The eastern ones are into this,. Hindu (which I'd dare claim Maynard to have more in common with than Christianity) has a main precept of

"Truth is one, although the sages know it by many."

Plenty of ways to trandscend the systen, The Hindus have several paths of yogo, but one, which I don't ascribe to, is called 'Bhakti" yoga, or devition. It's the for of Hinduism that says with a pure heart and devotion to an ideology tempered with rationality and logic, ,can lead you to the ultimate reality, heaven if you will, regardless whether it was Catholic-Bhakti, Baptist-Bhakti, Islam-Bhakti.

As long as you focus solely on the love aspects of the aformention paths, happiness will be patiently your reconciliation.

[RedMetalSox]

wrong...10,000 days is roughly 27 years. 1 saturn revoultion is roughly 29.5 years. nuf said.

[encrusted]

You guys got this right, 'Saturn Return' is an astrological reference to Saturn passing through all 12 signs of the zodiac - takes approx. 29 years, and it signifies considerable effort, difficulty and change in life - the outcome of a complete Saturn cycle is knowledge and growth.

[spacemonkeyadb]

I just have a hard time swallowing the fact that Maynard would write such an exclusively personal song for the masses ... Why would he sell us such exclusively personal sentiments? ... This song, if it is to be understood as a personal eulogy to his departed mother, seems to alienate the listener of whom is a stranger to Maynard.

Sometimes artists experience such powerful and emotional events that they need to use their artform to express these emotions and deal with them. Consider Pearl Jam's tribute to Layne Staley on their Lost Dogs album. Or the motivation for the whole Temple Of The Dog thing.
And even specifically personal songs such as these can have a very powerful effect on fans who identify with the emotions involved. There are threads in this forum which attest to this fact. And even those who do not identify with the specific situation can still appreciate the power of the emotions that are conveyed by the song.


Can this song be interpreted as Maynard paying his respects to the constituent of his audience who are roughly 10,000 days old...?

With this induction I've made that 10,000 days might be meant for individuals who are roughly 10,000 days old, I've been gaining a very profound understanding of each of the songs connection to one another on the album.

Don't you think that targeting an entire album to such a specific subset of their audience would be more alienating than writing one song (in two parts) about the personal experience of losing his mother?
(And I do actually fall within this subset, so I'm not opposing your approach on personal grounds)


Of course, up until the very last few moments of track #4, the track sequence of 3-4 gives the impression that they could be about anybody... only at the end of track 4 is the name "Judith Marie" explicitly given.

SO not true! Firstly, the first of the two tracks is named "Wings For Marie". Not "Wings for Judith". Did the biblical figure for which she was named also share her middle name?
Secondly, consider:
It was you who prayed for me so
What have I done
To be a son to an angel?
Could these lyrics make it any clearer that the "you" referred to is his mother? YOU prayed for me, so what have I done to be worthy of being the SON of such an angel.
And thirdly, the whole context of the song makes it clear that he is giving a eulogy for someone ("what am I to say to all these ghouls tonight?"). Who else but his mother would he be giving a eulogy for?


But there is no denying that the general sentiment of "you're the only one who can hold your head up high and shake your fists at the gates" is very reminiscient of the "rights of passage" thing that the wikipedia article goes into. Gates=gates of adulthood, responsibility for your own fate... give Maynard his wings to fulfill his role as an angel himself by you, the listener, taking his encouraging words to heart and thus crowning MJK as a successfull angel.

I'll deny it. I think the whole demanding "wings" and demanding the presence of the holy trinity makes it very clear that the "gates" in question are the gates of heaven. Plus there's the "...heaven knows when to lift you out" line preceding it.


You're the only one who can hold your head up high,
Shake your fists at the gates saying:
"I have come home now!
Fetch me the spirit, the son, and the father."
Tell them their pillar of faith has ascended.
It's time now! My time now!
Give me (Maynard) my, give me my wings!

I don't find your breakdown of this section to be very natural at all. The line after the point where you end the quote follows too quickly too suggest a change of perspective. Also, saying "You're the only one who can..." suggests something very bold is about to be suggested, and demanding one's wings from God certainly fits the bill. And who is the "pillar of faith" on your view, if not his mother?
Finally, don't you think it would be just a little bit self-righteously egotistical for Maynard to be demanding his "wings" from his fans?


It would also explain why during the extended musical interlude after the above part Maynard sings again, as if referring to himself, "Give me (maynard) MY wings...". It's very unnatural to believe that he is implicating himself as his mother saying these words during this part.

I don't think so. It's merely a reprisal of the earlier lyrics. I doesn't introduce anything new, and simply functions to remind us of the sentiment conveyed in the earlier part of the song. The way the vocals gradually fade back in support the idea that it is just a reminder, and not a repetition of his own demand.


It makes sense... otherwise, we have to believe that MJK is espousing dogmatic beliefs with his lyrics, that he actually believes his mother is up in a real place called Heaven and really deserves the audience of the holy trinity.

This is not true at all. The song is claiming only that if there is a heaven and holy trinity as Judith believed, then she has the right to demand her wings from God. It has been pointed out several times on these forums that there is no reason to suppose that he is doing any more than using (quite fittingly) the terminology and imagery of his mothers religious beliefs to express his feelings.

Please don't take my disagreement personally, Godin. I happen to think that your mission to link up all the songs on this album is a little misguided, but I don't wish to discourage you from it. I actually find it quite interesting, and look forward to viewing your progress.

EDIT:

I used to believe also that tracks 3-4 were a masked attempt at getting the listener to identify with the "you" figure in those tracks as well (which at the end of #4 we become disillusioned and find out it is Judith Marie), but now I just think it's not worth the struggle to try and prove since it's very unlikely.

I no longer really care to look much further into this possibility. It's far-fetched in the particular case of Tool.

Oh dear! Just found this post of yours in the lyrics sub-forum. It looks like you've abandoned your project anyway.
Seems this entire gigantic post was completely unnecessary!

LOL at myself for not finding that post sooner :)

[Inner_Eulogy]

Probably WAAAAY off...

-Godin

I concur.

Godin, not to say that you're unintelligent...but where the fuck do you come up with this shit? Everything I've heard come out of your mouth is completely off base and far fetched and more than likely not even close to on target. At least that's my opinion.

[dracomordag]

sup, guyz?

-Godin

[Godin]

sup, guyz?-Godin

What, is your last name Godin too?

-Godin

[dracomordag]

nope.

-Godin

[Godin]

nope. -Godin

Then why are you trying to get my attention?

-Godin

[ShadowLine]

Then why are you trying to get my attention?

-Godin

because he's a moron and he's think its funny for you typing your name at the end of the post ala:

-GODIN

chris
x

[Godin]

I suppose it's not needed. But big deal... what, is he trying to conserve bits on the server or something? I guess I'll go looking for some mind-blowingly powerful saying... I got plenty of them. Yeah, good idea.

[ObiJohnKenobi]

Yeah, good idea.

Ya gotta do what ya gotta do.

It might be mostly full of various forms of crap, but the path you took to get there is probably the most valuable part of it all anyway.

i don't think you've ever stated you were unequivocally right in what you've said. no high horse to fall from.

so "Balls!" to them. keep it up. maybe you're wrong, but its worth a try. Maybe the struggle is not for Truth, but for Self.

i'd add "- Godin" back.

[Godin]

Everything I've heard come out of your mouth is completely off base...far fetched...more than likely not even close to on target.


I've been off base a few times on here... in many of the cases it was merely due to a misunderstanding of what the lyrics actually are. I think that's the only response your post requires.

[Godin]

Yes, Spacemonkeyadb, I HAVE abandoned my attempt to understand tracks 3-4 in a way that is alternate to the first impression one may get of the song. However, I'd still like to respond to a few things in your post to me.


Don't you think that targeting an entire album to such a specific subset of their audience would be more alienating than writing one song (in two parts) about the personal experience of losing his mother?

"The more one pleases generally, the less one pleases profoundly"
-Stendahl, Love 1822
If you visit MJK's winery website (http://www.caduceus.org/), this quote is the first of a few quotes he cited that are important to him. Of course, this quote was fetched to give us some sort of impression as to how he approaches making wine, but it's not crazy to believe this philosophy also is how he approaches making music. The sentiment of this quote would hint that MJK is more prone to write to specific subsets of his audience if the mood striked him than he would be to write to everybody in general.

Also, as I've touched upon briefly in a post before, I'd argue that many tool fans are either at or nearly approaching this phase of their life anyway. Most of us became Tool fans in highschool, when we were about 16 or so. 12 years have now passed since those days... which would bring all of Tool's initial fans to this stage of their life that I suggested MJK might be alluding to with both the "Saturn return" and the "10,000 days" time period. Some people have claimed that Tool's music is very mathematical... I dunno about that, but if it IS true then what I've just stated is some pretty easy math.

Either way, I'm not pushing this claim any further until I know exactly what the lyrics are... to all the songs. I need to understand better the nature of this CD as a whole... to see if the general focus of MJK's lyrics has shifted. The previous two albums were generally about personal growth for Maynard and the listener who attempts to accompany his experiences along the way... "10,000 days" seems not to be along the same lines.


...the first of the two tracks is named "Wings For Marie". Not "Wings for Judith".

Offhandedly, I wonder why in "A Perfect Circle" he addressed his mother as Judith and in this new album he addresses her as Marie, apparently using her middle name.



...don't you think it would be just a little bit self-righteously egotistical for Maynard to be demanding his "wings" from his fans?

Nope... not after what he's contributed to the quality of our lives, etc. The mission statement of Tool, as explicitly stated in the press article linked to on the home page of this site, is for the fans to use Tool's music as a sort of soundtrack to do something productive with. IF it really were the case that tracks 3-4 had something to do with prompting the fans to give MJK his wings by engaging in some type of productive activity, THEN this sentiment would be RIGHT in line with the overall mission statement of the band, and it would not be self-righteously egotistical. It would be an indirect way of prompting the listener to do something for another (MJK) that is actually good for himself. If it were the case that such a sentiment were expressed by an artist, I would immediately recognize it as benevolent and therefore noble.

I think it's about time for ALL the lyrics to be released. I have come as far as I can with this album (and I think farther than I should have even gone) without knowing what he is actually saying.

[spacemonkeyadb]

Either way, I'm not pushing this claim any further until I know exactly what the lyrics are... to all the songs. I need to understand better the nature of this CD as a whole... to see if the general focus of MJK's lyrics has shifted. The previous two albums were generally about personal growth for Maynard and the listener who attempts to accompany his experiences along the way... "10,000 days" seems not to be along the same lines.

I think it's about time for ALL the lyrics to be released. I have come as far as I can with this album (and I think farther than I should have even gone) without knowing what he is actually saying.
I think it could still be a long time before we get the rest of the lyrics. RS is somewhat unique (within the album) in terms of the rapid delivery of its lyrics, so I can see why Maynard might have been more disposed to release these to us earlier.
Hope I'm wrong though!

Despite this, I think we have a good enough grasp of the album's lyrics for us to proceed with our own interpretations. Very few of the remaining contentious areas are likely to change in a way that would radically change a song's meaning, and even with full official lyrics I'm sure there will still be plenty of room for differing interpretations.

I have to say I admire your determination to dig deep into this album and extract as much from it as possible. The reason I felt compelled to argue against your earlier project was that, to me, it would have greatly weakened the album for all (or most) of the songs to have been thematically linked together by being about a single specific kind of character.
This doesn't mean that I think the album is a messy collection of disparate and unrelated songs. Rather, I think that the album derives its considerable strength by containing songs about different things which are then united by the common themes which run throughout the album. For me, these themes are primarily: loss, resignation, frustration, and unity/division.

And as for the individual songs...

VICARIOUS - Our less-than-angelic nature, as shown by our tendency to feed on tragedy through the media.
JAMBI - The need to balance our needs & wants for the sake of those important to us (I think the song is specifically about his son).
WINGS FOR MARIE - The loss of his mother, focussing specifically on what she meant to him.
10,000 DAYS - The loss of his mother, focussing more generally on how she lived her life.
THE POT - Hypocrisy.
LIPAN CONJURING - A spiritual and funny (Tool new, Tool cool!) filler.
LOST KEYS - Atmospheric lead-in to...
ROSETTA STONED - An allegorical message about how NOT to approach their music (http://toolnavy.com/showthread.php?t=56036).
INTENSION - A tale of humanity's moral evolution (or lack thereof).
RIGHT IN TWO - Dissapointment and frustration at humanity's belligerent and aggressive nature.
VIGINTI TRES - An atmospheric lead-out (with sounds reminiscent of the approach of the UFO from RS).

(PS. Bring back the "-Godin"!. It gave extra character and personality to your posts IMO.)

[spacemonkeyadb]

I need to understand better the nature of this CD as a whole... to see if the general focus of MJK's lyrics has shifted. The previous two albums were generally about personal growth for Maynard and the listener who attempts to accompany his experiences along the way... "10,000 days" seems not to be along the same lines.

I agree there is a change in tone here, especially when comparing 10kd to Lateralus. I think that Lateralus was supposed to be our "enlightenment", and 10kd is kinda like the aftermath expressing disappointment and frustration with those (the vast majority of humanity) who have failed to take this step with them.

If the previous albums were about personal growth and development, then this one is telling us to use that growth to actually achieve something. (Although it does so in a negative way by showing how most of us are not doing this.)

[wearethestories]

Well, I'd say if anything then perhaps The Grudge alludes to the situation with his mother. It wasn't recorded much longer before she died, afterall. So perhaps this enlightens us to the possibility that either Maynard or his mother held a grudge against the other and the song was about letting it go. Only to then write the follow-up song. The song where, indeed, the grudge has been let go and love can take its place. A good idea... again, I don't know how realistic, however.

I don't think his references to 'Saturn' in The Grudge had anything to do with days in its orbit. I think it was more of an astrological reference. Much like the '1' and '10' were references to sacred numerology (or, at least, that's the theory I ascribe to)

Either way, good thoughts all around

word.

[eslupminoyler]

it was sarcasm...but this is the internet.

I think we may need to put little symbols around what is sarcasm and what isn't sometimes.

Music is emotion in the form of vibration, and tool are musicians. Perhaps when you say "emo" you meant a more pathetic conceding emotion. And if you meant this "no," they are not conceding, but more alive and vibrant.
They don't seem as depressed. Seems like there is more backbone; hence, less acid and more conscious prayer.

[Godin]

I have to say I admire your determination to dig deep into this album and extract as much from it as possible...

Not "as much from it as possible", but as much from it as there is that is relevant to the "you, the listener, are significant in some way" theme that I've detected in various other albums recently. I'm searching for this trend in albums... because I happened to come upon it in a few and now have found this popular culture phenomenon to be interesting... It's an interesting way for an artist to direct the sentiment in their work towards their fans, when it is actually used. If "10,000 days" is not somehow an example of this cultural trend... then my feelings towards the album would significantly change. In which direction, I don't know.

I'd just like to restate, though, that it's never my purpose to dig as much as I can out of music. There are many things in Tool's music that I just don't pay much mind to. I looked in the artwork message threads and read some wild stuff about how numerology supposedly ties into some of the pictures on the inside cover (having to do with the number 11)... I found this curious, but I haven't pursued it any further because EVERYTHING about this album doesn't concern me. Only information of a particular type.


...it would have greatly weakened the album for all (or most) of the songs to have been thematically linked together by being about a single specific kind of character.

Noooooo. It'd make it that much more powerful and unprecedented. It would make it that much more rich, if the album was done tastefully to one's likings. The wave of future artistry (in music in particular) will be the linking of separate individual creations to be all of one accord, whether this is directly or indirectly done. Record companies encourage this behavior by giving artists longer copyright protection for a song which is part of a highly inter-linked album as opposed to a song which stands alone like a single.

Also, songs can be much more rich in information when considered closely within the context of certain other songs (on an album or perhaps even throughout an artists' entire public musical career)




And as for the individual songs...

LIPAN CONJURING - A spiritual and funny (Tool new, Tool cool!) filler.

That'd be funny if it was, but I think it's a BIG assumption to put too much weight in this possibility without any substantiation. I don't hear the "L" sound on the track. The only way to prove yourself right with this would be to ask a Lipan member (or Tool) if the chant in that song says anything in Lipan language or not.

Until I receive this confirmation, I'm going to have to assume "Lipan Conjuring" is a type of medicine man summoning healing spirits for the sake of the character depicted in tracks 7-8 to follow. Tracks 6-8 are all of one accord.

LOST KEYS - Atmospheric lead-in to...
ROSETTA STONED - An allegorical message about how NOT to approach their music (http://toolnavy.com/showthread.php?t=56036).

LOST KEYS is much more than an atmospheric lead-in. It most importantly characterizes the person in ROSETTA STONED as someone who is anonymous to the band, but of whom has entered a place of healing (hospital and medicine man chant). Tool is casting themselves as the Doctor figure, and certain types of anonymous listeners (who "fell by the hands of those moments that [Maynard] wouldn't see") as the estranged patient.


(PS. Bring back the "-Godin"!. It gave extra character and personality to your posts IMO.)

Na, to be completely truthful I was looking to stop putting that in there anyway... originally, it was something I did casually. Then.. :-) Message after message the casuality of it went away... it now has become a casualty of ridicule; an undignified death.

[spacemonkeyadb]

(re:"Tool new, Tool cool" in LP)
That'd be funny if it was, but I think it's a BIG assumption to put too much weight in this possibility without any substantiation. I don't hear the "L" sound on the track. The only way to prove yourself right with this would be to ask a Lipan member (or Tool) if the chant in that song says anything in Lipan language or not.

It wasn't my idea, and you're right - it could just be coincidence. But even without this bit, Lipan is still funny due to the way the last bit gets screamed out. I find this track to be both serious/spiritual and a little humorous. I think it would be a mistake to ignore the intended humor and take this song as 100% serious.


LOST KEYS is much more than an "atmospheric lead-in".

I agree. I didn't mean to suggest that it was a lead-in only in an atmospheric way, but rather that it is a lead-in and it is also atmospheric. Clearly it also provides a lot of background information about the character and setting for Rosetta Stoned.

[Godin]

I don't find your breakdown of this section to be very natural at all. The line after the point where you end the quote follows too quickly too suggest a change of perspective. Also, saying "You're the only one who can..." suggests something very bold is about to be suggested, and demanding one's wings from God certainly fits the bill.

During the time when you originally posted this response, I either didn't feel like nuancing over this point or just didn't want to argue about the song anymore without knowing truly what the lyrics are. I was just listening to the song though and decided I might as well respond to what WOULD be the case if my understanding of the lyrics are correct.

You're the only one who can hold your head up high, [and] shake your fists at the gates saying:

"I've come home now!"

Fetch me [Maynard] the spirit, the son, and the father. Tell them their pillar of faith has ascended. It's time now! My time now! Give me [Maynard] my wings!


You said the part after I end the quotes for "I've come home now" follows to quickly to seem naturally as if the quotes SHOULD end there. Well, considering the explosive way that MJK sings "I've come home now" and does not sing the rest similarly, I would think it's natural enough to assume the quotes end right after that point. This type of lone suggestion (lone as in being without the rest of the "fetch me the spirit, son, father, etc") is a common spiritual sentiment... As an example, in the Matrix Morpheus repeatedly tells Neo "I can only show you the door. You're the only one who can walk through it". MJK makes a concise quote of what the only thing the subject of his song can do, and that thing that only the subject of the song can do is to stand up to God and say "I've come home now!". Nobody else can do that for them. It is their responsibility to claim their own destiny by saying "I've come home now" to God.


And who is the "pillar of faith" on your view, if not his mother?

The pillar of faith would be this song, and most specifically this particular moment within the song, and perhaps within the album. In the art forum, there were posts about how in the album's artwork the number 11 is pervacent somehow in the right-hand corner of each band member's picture. In one picture there are 11 candles, in another a clock is set to 11, etc. Each picture has something distinctly suggesting the number 11. Some guy in the threads said that the number 11 is supposed to stand for "the great accomplishment"... relating to alchemy or something. Maynard is saying with this "pillar of faith" section that "the great achievement" or act of faith has come to pass and now the subject of the "wings pt. 2" song must make their firm appeal to God, or whatever, however you'd make sense of that part. To make the boldest suggestion, I'd think he's trying to use this album (or parts of it) to emotionally move the listener to productive action in their life... since, like I've said before, moving their listener's to productive action is basically Tool's mission statement.

I'll leave you with this for now. I really just wanted to answer the "pillar of faith" question you asked. The pillar of faith would be this moment in the song, and perhaps the entire album.


Also, to clarify, I'm not maintaining my claim the the entire album is strongly linked... but I do believe that at least some songs are. Obviously 3-4 (maybe along with 5), and 6-8. It might even be the case that you could say 3-8 are linked.. but in sub-divisions of 3-5 and 6-8. I expect a firm response from you... so I'll wait for that and perhaps elaborate more later.

[Cicero]

Hey Guys :)

I know this is really late and you guys have moved on from the original theory presented here, but I just wanted to throw this in here. 10,000 days is roughly the amount of time that Judith was paralyzed. MJK was 11 years old -i think, i might be wrong- at the time that she first became paralyzed, and how old is he now? Forty, something along the lines of. I just think that this song is (including both parts) is about MJK coming to realize the fact that he was being very blind when he wrote such songs as "Judith" (A Perfect Circle), and i get this from the line "Set as I am in my ways and my arrogance". I belive MJK is coming to terms with the fact that his mother lived a very pure, spiritual life, and that she is one of the few who have accmomplished that. I also believe that MJK is saying he would be willing to live that kinda life also.

Anyway, that's just what I think.

Oh, and forgive me if I'm just stating the obvious.

[BlanketEffect]

There shall be no forgiveness.

[ArizonaBay]

Maynard talked in an interview about the Buddhist 10,000 breaths before something new. Maynard uses this metaphor in relation to his mothers death. Not Saturn its orbit is slightly longer than 10,000 days look in the archives for all that speculation.

[Chronicle0]

Sorry if this is said already, i don't have the time to read everyone's wall-o-texts.


but anyways, i think the 10,000 days in the fire lyric is referrign to how many days Judith Marie was ill. She had a condition and it lasted about 25 year/10,000 days. I bet people here remember hearing this, i just wanted to bring it up again. I still think the song is only about Judith.

[Chronicle0]

Hey Guys :)

I know this is really late and you guys have moved on from the original theory presented here, but I just wanted to throw this in here. 10,000 days is roughly the amount of time that Judith was paralyzed. MJK was 11 years old -i think, i might be wrong- at the time that she first became paralyzed, and how old is he now? Forty, something along the lines of. I just think that this song is (including both parts) is about MJK coming to realize the fact that he was being very blind when he wrote such songs as "Judith" (A Perfect Circle), and i get this from the line "Set as I am in my ways and my arrogance". I belive MJK is coming to terms with the fact that his mother lived a very pure, spiritual life, and that she is one of the few who have accmomplished that. I also believe that MJK is saying he would be willing to live that kinda life also.

Anyway, that's just what I think.

Oh, and forgive me if I'm just stating the obvious.


Damn you posted what i said but you gave more details. Thanks :P

Agreed.