Set as I am in my ways and my arrogance

[asdf25]

Burden of proof tossed upon the believers.


I'm entirely with the people saying that Maynard's increased use of Christian metaphors on this album in no way means he's "converted to Christianity". But in terms of having a less negative outlook towards Christianity, I think these lines are the most interesting on the album. What does everyone think about them?

What I'm thinking now is that talking about "burden of proof" sort of relies on a specific philisophical interpretation of Christian beliefs, and we really know very little about what Maynard thinks about Christianity specifically, apart from disliking organized religion for reasons unrelated to any specific theology. Though I am somewhat surprised that he would say anything like "maybe Christian theology could be true after all". "Set as I am in my ways and my arrogance" could be an apology of sorts for being so aggressively anti-religion when his mother was devoutly religious, although it's hard to say because I don't know much about MJK's life and mother and all that.

[ntto]

Burden of proof tossed upon the believers.


I'm entirely with the people saying that Maynard's increased use of Christian metaphors on this album in no way means he's "converted to Christianity". But in terms of having a less negative outlook towards Christianity, I think these lines are the most interesting on the album. What does everyone think about them?

What I'm thinking now is that talking about "burden of proof" sort of relies on a specific philisophical interpretation of Christian beliefs, and we really know very little about what Maynard thinks about Christianity specifically, apart from disliking organized religion for reasons unrelated to any specific theology. Though I am somewhat surprised that he would say anything like "maybe Christian theology could be true after all". "Set as I am in my ways and my arrogance" could be an apology of sorts for being so aggressively anti-religion when his mother was devoutly religious, although it's hard to say because I don't know much about MJK's life and mother and all that.

i think it's about faith. Faith is a huge thing for both believers and non believers. It's the burden of proof he's talking about. A christian could describe a non believer as being arrogant in relation to their attitude towards faith

[No one and nobody]

It seems to me that the song is about much more than just acknowledging his mother's faith in her religion, but how she has stood as a "Pillar" for not just the congregation, or community, but most importantly for him. Her faith seems to be her life, and regardless of how reckless or arrogant (and ungrateful, as I remember my adolesence) he may have been, he regards her as the "unconditional one," meaning that she had aboslute love and support for him. It stands as testament to everything she has given him... "this little light" of life, happiness, etc.

[Cycloz]

Pretty sure it's:

Burden of proof tossed upon non believers

[Melanos]

all religeons have thier "true" points about them... bottom line, its all the same "god" they are trying to worship.

[eleventh minute]

all religeons have thier "true" points about them... bottom line, its all the same "god" they are trying to worship.

or goddess

[eleventh minute]

i think you need to look at the rest of the verse

as set as i am in my ways and my arragance,
burden of proof tossed upon the/non believers
you were the witness
MY* eyes
MY* evidence.

So, I'd look at it first as saying there are two possibilities. 0ne, burden of proof tossed upon "the" believers, could mean that the "proof" was either against christianity. or consequently in favor of faith. In which case i should invoke the rest of the verse, in which he is claiming his personal perception. It's His eyes, and His evidence. And knowing of his feelings relayed many times over in the rest of his songs, i think it's simple to conclude that Maynard means what comes at face value. The proof being, Judiths faith didnt keep her from being paralized. If anything it just served as a placebo, or a crutch. which can be further reinforced with "unconditional one" ...which i would take to portray Judiths unconditional devotion to her faith. (or her loved ones...ie family/friends)

[phatfela1]

oh yeah absolutely.

if you listen to lateralus, much of the album and specifically Reflection deals with "crucifying the ego." this is the maynard that we see today...very low ego, not being able to stand when people think they are VIPs (L.A. is full of them, hence the song Aenima). So the whole point is that he is one man that i would expect would be willing to admit defeat and realize that he was wrong. he went through the whole spiritual enlightenment that was turned into music via Lateralus! he is now willing to let go of his ego, willing to admit that he was wrong, and i think it's pretty obvious that he is stating he was wrong about christianity on this track; that he should've acknowledged what his mom was doing this whole time instead of criticizing it, although there may have been some flaws.

he is obsessed with divinity since day one, we see that in the music and the interviews, and here he now realizes that it all goes back to his mom, who is doing the same thing, just under the title Christianity. Now he sees a childish person demanding proof from something that cannot provide proof (unless you are actually taking part in the practice).

So he was set as he was in his ways and his arrogance, tossing the burden of proof upon the Catholic believers, his mother included. But now he sees that there is truth in it. In my opinion, I think that much of this album is his awakening to Christianity. I think it's the most unblievable thing a band could do..go through a complete 180 growth spurt throught the lifetime of their music. I don't know why people are so against it and have this pointless battle with all religions. GET OVER IT. True spirituality is the ability to forget your ego and all your beliefs and make a change of growth. I don't understand why you people can't do that.

[RaG3aH0liC]

As one gets older it seems quite common to begin to question things that you wouldn't give a second glance before. As death looms nearer it is natural to wonder "is this all there is?" Religion is many different things to different people. As you get older it would seem natural to try and make your peace with whatever maker you choose. Almost out of fear. It would be like buying the religious insurance policy. Some people certainly wouldn't want to subscribe to all the beliefs, but I think they want to believe that there is the chance of an after-life. I'm not implying that Tool / Maynard has had some sort of a religious experience for whatever reason (I can't decide for sure which direction I think the lyrics point), but the band has been around for 15+ years and a lot can change in one's mindset in that time. Who knows. not me

[fabienne78]

It's a homage to his mother. Doesn't mean he's is changing his beliefs (or whatever you want to call it, damn I hate that word). Seeing that his mother was a firm believer the song possesses a few christian expressions. But stating that he lost his wonderful mind to question religion and turn over to the dark side (Christianity),
oh yuck! Please say he didn't, please. And if so, I will be truly disappointed.


I my opinion, I think he has an open mind. He looks at the world around him and whatever relates to him at that moment he takes a small part off and fabricates a whole new kind off looking glass for us to see through.

Parts people, it's all about tiny parts from all different angles and sides being fitted into a whole.

[Aunt Acid]

Pretty sure it's:

Burden of proof tossed upon non believers

Goddamnit, NO! It doesn't make fucking sense!!! How could the burden of proving something exists lie upon people who don't beleive it doesn't exist?

[santel]

he could be speaking through Judith's mouth for a second there, as if she were speaking. Set as i am in my ways and my arrogance, burden of proof tossed upon non believers. saying she is far to stuborn to require a shread of evidence, leaving it to those who dont believe to find it.

[Aunt Acid]

he could be speaking through Judith's mouth for a second there, as if she were speaking. Set as i am in my ways and my arrogance, burden of proof tossed upon non believers. saying she is far to stuborn to require a shread of evidence, leaving it to those who dont believe to find it.

I doubt it. Think of the lines afterward. "You were my witness, my eyes, my evidence, Judith Marie, unconditional one" These are part of the same musical idea as before. It wouldn't make sense to switch it up. Plus, that would kind of detract from the message, wouldn't it? Talking about how great she was and then talking as her, saying she's arrogant?

[pink_rose]

Goddamnit, NO! It doesn't make fucking sense!!! How could the burden of proving something exists lie upon people who don't beleive it doesn't exist?

Unless she is the subject of that line, hence she is the burden of proof... which non believers must see to become believers if you will.

Your explanation makes sense too though. So i guess its upto how you feel it fits with the rest of the song.

I vote non believers.

[Lysanderdarkstar]

Unless she is the subject of that line, hence she is the burden of proof...

I'd have to agree you...
I mean "You are the light and the way, they'll only read about"
IMO he's saying that she's turned the tides and tossed the burden of proof onto the nonbelivers.

[pink_rose]

Thats not exactly what I meant, but thanks for agreeing with me...

[fugitive538]

Well, it does matter whether its 'non' or 'the', but both may show Maynards unique relation to christianity.
-If it is 'non', then maybe it says that it is more difficult to confute anything in such a transcendent question, so we can imagine him being on a bit neutral side, now accepting the christians in their beliefs. not agreeing with them, but accepting that it is a belief, and no proof can be said (for or) against it. (that is a change since the APC-Judith times)
-If it is 'the', then it also describes a bit neutral, accepting stand, so as saying: i wont join the true believers, cause they always bear the burden of the need of finding an evidence, in order to defend their beliefs; but i still accept this thing that my mother believed to be right.
(sorry if i dont get it through to you well, english is not my first language... do you get what i mean?)

Indeed it is an important line IMHO, but in Maynards dense lyrics (though the Wings for Marie and 10kdays are probably the most straightforward ones of his works) every word has its own role. (or probably most of them.)

So i'm looking forward to the "consensus guesses" (and then finally the original lyrics:)). Until now i believed it to be 'the believers', but now i tend to hear 'non' :-) hell, im confused....

[Aunt Acid]

Unless she is the subject of that line, hence she is the burden of proof... which non believers must see to become believers if you will.

Your explanation makes sense too though. So i guess its upto how you feel it fits with the rest of the song.

I vote non believers.

She isn't the subject of that line though.

"Set as I am in my ways and my arrogance, burden of proof tossed upon the beleivers" It's all part of the same idea, and all the lines around it are coming from Maynard and his self. His arrogance is the line "burden of proof tossed upon the beleivers". Meditate on it, hard, I'm sure you'll come to the same conclusion.

[Caduceus11]

I think NON fits because, the non-believers and thier ways and their actions bear the burden, not the believers.

[DON IOTAE]

when the non/the dilemma is resolved, I'll reply to this thread.

[pink_rose]

She isn't the subject of that line though.

"Set as I am in my ways and my arrogance, burden of proof tossed upon the beleivers" It's all part of the same idea, and all the lines around it are coming from Maynard and his self. His arrogance is the line "burden of proof tossed upon the beleivers". Meditate on it, hard, I'm sure you'll come to the same conclusion.


You are correct. She isnt the subject. But i still believe its non believers. I thought about what you said about Maynard and his arrogance, etc.

So heres why I think what I think...

"Set as I am in my ways and my arrogance"
He says hes an arrogant man, stubborn and cynical perhaps, which isnt a bad thing, however this behaviour took him away from where his mother put him in the church, which is full of the "believers"

Now that he has left the church folk at a young age, he has grown up with a bunch of acid heads and other such people perhaps, who are not idiots but surely not believers in a religious sense. So it can be said that he hangs out with non believers.

ergo, i think he says,

im so arrogant, that the burden of proof that my mother wanted me to see from the believers has now been tossed upon the non believers, which would never work because they are non believers, but hey, I am THAT arrogant. So i learned nothing from these non believers however i never stopped learning from you mommy, hence you are my witness, eyes and evidence, and know i have found what you wanted me to find!

And no, I am not saying he has accepted Catholicism, but more like he has found his purpose on earth in relation to the big picture of life.

Oh, and another reason i think its non believers, is because thats what i hear on the CD. Which is no real argument. but hey...

[Aunt Acid]

I dunno about any of that really. And as for listening to the CD, listen harder! The first "N" is easy to hear because of the way it's said, "upon" and "the/non" merging to practically one word, but if you listen, there is no closing "n" it just becomes the word "beleivers". If it were "non", surely the last letter would be heard, but it's very clearly not.

[molehill]

What is anything without your belief in it though?

[Aunt Acid]

What is anything without your belief in it though?

Huh? Why do you nessisarily have to beleive in stuff? I don't think beleifs are nessisary at all.

[DON IOTAE]

Au contraire! Beliefs are necessary. Didn't you see the Matrix trilogy? *lol*

I agree with molehill 101%

[Carbonatedgravy]

This is all theory, and I generally avoid this stuff unless I'm sure, but I think "burden of proof" could refer to a typical argument an atheist or perhaps more appropriately an agnostic might use to express why they don't personally believe in God. Because there is no proof that a God exists or that Christianity is the right path, they demand more answers than anyone can possibly give them. Maynard has played the agnostic, and has often tossed the burden of proof at his mother as his argument against her faith. He can't buy into the faith completely, but for the sake of his mother he feels bad about this.

"Set as I am in my ways and my arrogance..." Part of Maynard may want to change, but he just can't. He can't in his heart and soul grasp the beliefs of his mother. And his excuse is the need for proof.

However, he concedes "You were my witness, my eyes, my evidence" in reference to his mother. She believed FOR him. She prayed for him and carried enough faith for the two of them. And no matter how he treated her or argued with her in life, such as he did in the song Judith, she always kept her faith.

[Cycloz]

I think NON fits because, the non-believers and thier ways and their actions bear the burden, not the believers.

That's how I see it. The reason I think it's non-believers is the fact that someone who is truly a believer (in this case Judith) wouldn't hold any burden over showing proof of their faith. They are not the ones who need the proof, it is the non-believers who hold this burden of proof.

[Caduceus11]

RIGHT ON, 'cloz

[La Fae Verte]

That's how I see it. The reason I think it's non-believers is the fact that someone who is truly a believer (in this case Judith) wouldn't hold any burden over showing proof of their faith. They are not the ones who need the proof, it is the non-believers who hold this burden of proof.

That's how I was trying to explain it last night in the What's He Saying? thread. I was having a hard time explaining it, though. Glad someone is more articulate than I am. :P

[figgy2967]

Set as I am in my ways and my arrogance,
Burden of proof tossed upon the believers.

I see "Burden of proof" as he won't believe for lack of proof and he uses that argument against the believers... because he is set in his ways... stubborn

[Caduceus11]

as are NON-believers....your point is moot.

[figgy2967]

Moot?

[Caduceus11]

try dictionary.com....

it means of no practical importance....

[DON IOTAE]

What is anything without your belief in it though?

Huh? Why do you nessisarily have to beleive in stuff? I don't think beleifs are nessisary at all.

Au contraire! Beliefs are necessary. Didn't you see the Matrix trilogy? *lol*

I agree with molehill 101%

*lol*

I agree with a question...

[toocooltool]

inncorect lyrical interpretation

spelling mistakes galaw!

[spacemonkeyadb]

spelling mistakes galaw!
galore?

[philipg]

this song seems to be more of a tribute to his mom's faith, rather than maynard affirming god and christianity.
hes telling her that if anyone deserves to go to heaven, if it's there, then that person is her
hopefully her endless faith amounts to something.

[stlcards]

Oh my goodness, look about and see the arguments. I believe it is the believeres and I am not gonna argue why, it just makes sense to me that way.

I think, that this is one of the most beautiful songs a son can write for a mother, even a mother that had completely different beliefs as the son. I have listened to the song about 35 times in the last two weeks and I love it more and more every time. Musically and lirycs wise. We aregue this way about two lines and lose the point of the whole masterpiece, which is in fact an homage, as Fabienne78 writes, and the most beautiful kind of that. So let's keep it that way and not get too hung up on two lines.